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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Clownbot

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I know that it'll be out one day or another. As you've said, it's a great opportunity and they can't let go of it. But my statement still makes plenty of sense. Why get so mad?
Well, I for one just have a small patience and temper, both of which I'm trying to overcome. Hey, maybe some other posters here have that problem too. Either way, I do agree that it's useless to get so angry sometimes. This thread was made for people to say what they wanted to see in SSB4, and somewhere along the way, we barged in and decided to be logical and crush peoples' dreams. :laugh: Sometimes it's difficult to separate what people want in SSB4 and what should be in SSB4, since those two things are pretty much all that goes on here. :ohwell:
 

RyuReiatsu

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Clownbot took care of everything but this,

I never said it was false I just said that we shouldn't go into discussion about it (coughMicaiahcough) oops

and you kinda just contradicted your self.......SWORD-USERS eh? Ganon ring a bell in your post?
Fire Emblem ain't all about swords. Why digging for more of them? There are spear users, knife users, heck even TOME users.
So much variety for Fire Emblem...
Contradiction? There ain't none. I've said we've had enough Sword-users from Fire Emblem.


Well, I for one just have a small patience and temper, both of which I'm trying to overcome. Hey, maybe some other posters here have that problem too. Either way, I do agree that it's useless to get so angry sometimes. This thread was made for people to say what they wanted to see in SSB4, and somewhere along the way, we barged in and decided to be logical and crush peoples' dreams. :laugh: Sometimes it's difficult to separate what people want in SSB4 and what should be in SSB4, since those two things are pretty much all that goes on here. :ohwell:
Haha, yeah... Still, that's about my first time posting and he almost gets on my throat.

Heading to bed now, see ya around.
 

Paper Mario Master

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Come on that's the only time I've done it (1. cuz I'm tired of people wasting Ganon and 2. because of Black Shadow though it wasn't that bad)

The only time I've gotten into a huge debate was a tiny blow up (by someone else) about Roy/All of FE. Holy Snot it was long, just going back an forth over Micaiah and others. *cough*Roy*cough*

The contradiction was that you don't want any FE swords but you're turning around and giving Ganon one.
 

Clownbot

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PMM, he said that there were too many sword-users for Fire Emblem. Not LoZ. Not any other series.

FE has a lot of possibilities as far as characters go, and they shouldn't waste all those spots on people who are built around using the same weapon, a sword, is what he said.
 

Paper Mario Master

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PMM, he said that there were too many sword-users for Fire Emblem. Not LoZ. Not any other series.

FE has a lot of possibilities as far as characters go, and they shouldn't waste all those spots on people who are built around using the same weapon, a sword, is what he said.
I know this, That^ is my FE argument for Roy (against except I want M2 and we get one we get both) and sometimes VS. Lyn.

It just doesn't make sense to not give up potential for a sword user for one series and then go give an existing character a sword (that was in one game) in another.

Technically they have the same amount of SU right now and Ganon w/ sword and no new FE sword=more Swords for LOZ. IMO LOZ has close to as much potential as FE, so that screws over LOZ for FE. I love both so I can't be okay with that
 

ToiseOfChoice

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I should probably explain the point of the list (this is long so you can probably skim it if you get the gist of it):

1. Take an existing series (could technically do this with any series, but might as well start with the "regular" series full of characters)
2. Deduce which characters are important and feasible (the ones that really matter; each person has their own standard, their own cutoff point, so most of the debating will be over this)
3. List the characters in order of importance (most series have an accepted order for this but some are debatable)
4. Cutoff anyone 3rd in line or lower (only under specific conditions has any series gained more than two characters per game, so being 3rd in line pretty much guarantees being left out in the next Smash)


Let's use Star Fox for now since most people are familiar with it:

Andross
Falco
Fox
Krystal
Wolf


Andross doesn't work because he's a giant floating head with hands. That's fine, he can be a boss or AT or something. So now we have:

Falco
Fox
Krystal
Wolf


Most people would agree with this. There's six other pilots, but they're not on the same level as these guys. Now let's arrange them in order of importance:

Fox > Falco > Wolf > Krystal


This is Sakurai's order, most people have accepted it by now. This basically says you can't have Krystal without Wolf, Wolf without Falco, Falco without Fox.


Now, for the most part, very few series have ever had more than two characters added in a single game. Mario and Zelda had it in Melee thanks to clones, Pokemon had it in Brawl thanks to PT. Those situations probably won't happen anymore given where we are now, so any series getting two characters in one game is the best case scenario.

Pretend we only have Fox so far:

- Adding Falco in the next game is reasonable since it's only one new character.
- Adding Wolf in the next game requires Falco as well. This is less likely, but still possible.
- Adding Krystal in the next game requires Wolf and Falco. This is extremely unlikely and would have some sort of catch to it.

If we add Falco, it changes by the next game in the series:

- Adding Wolf is reasonable.
- Adding Krystal requires Wolf as well. Less likely but possible.

This repeats until every important character is in the game. At that point, the series is complete, there's no one else worth adding unless the source material adds a new major character and they really catch on.


All the debates we've had in this massive thread focus on #2 and #3: which characters qualify as important and the order of said importance. Keep in mind the entire point of Smash is not to simply fill the roster, but to get every character that matters from these series. Also it doesn't matter whether they'll specifically be in SSB4 or not, only that we understand who'll be in eventually.

Now a bunch of you are probably thinking "what the hell do further Smash games matter? This thread's about SSB4!" Well, yes, it's technically about SSB4. But to know why some characters will probably appear this time when others won't requires that we understand the entire spectrum of characters. We have to narrow it down, give them order, and properly justify each choice we make. By doing that, we subsequently realize that there are still more characters that belong in this game that won't make it in the next one. Barring the end of Smash, these characters will eventually make it in.

Right now, the only series that everyone agrees is complete is Kirby. Every other series still has characters that are worth adding. This should be obvious given the wide differences in everyone's rosters. When a series is complete, you guys will know.


Hopefully all of that was readable, I'm about to pass out.

----


@Pieman: You might think DK is complete as it is and F-Zero only needs Goroh. That's fine, that's your opinion. I'm not gonna argue with you over it anymore, even if it's at odds with what we've seen so far. However, I am curious to see your ideal roster. If this thread's been any indication there won't be a whole lot of additions.
 

SmashChu

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^awesome post

I did read a good deal of the F-Zero debate. I agree with Toise overall. Peiman, you aren't that good at arguing your point. It doesn't mean you are wrong, but you have to learn to state your claim properly, or you'll get beaten down by logic.
 

Thirdkoopa

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You DO know the entire point of the list was about "characters that matter in a given series and should eventually be playable," not "characters that'll be in SSB4," right?
If so, then please explain how porky is above The Masked Man, because honestly, the only thing porky has going for him is the fact that he's a reoccurring villian. If I need to explain more (Of course, I may be a bit biased on some of these points, but...):

SOME SPOILERS BELOW. DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU







1)The awkwardness of Porky - Sure, you can make porky work, but sakurai see's him as a pretty big boss and only good as a boss seemingly, kinda like how he saw ridley. He's awkward in the sense that andross is...Well, maybe less. It could happen, but that's already downplay number 1 (Be also noted he only' most of the time just rams into you and uses magic...And you face him actually as many times as you do with claus/mm in one game) You can argue that he isn't that awkward, sure, but sakurai has even said that sukapon and ridley were awkward. Why would he spent a bunch of development time on a character he can put as a boss? Of course he can If he wanted to, but there isn't really even that much request for him anyways unlike Sukapon (K, not that requested, but first ninty fighting game protaginist) Or Ridley.

2)He's a side villian, actually - How many have we had in smash? If you want to count wolf I guess...But he's the only viable star fox villian. In Mother 2/Earthbound, all he does is ASSIST Giygas. In Mother 3/Earthbound 2, He basically just sits backseat supporting his minion taking all the needle's out. You don't even SEE His face until near the end of the game (Gee, Similar to andross, right?)

3)Sakurai's Interest - The top 7 character's mentioned in Sakurai's journal were (no particular order): Geno, Ridley, Krystal, Claus, Ike, Diddy Kong, and King Dedede. Three are in brawl, Geno was POSSIBLY Planned (Or could've been M&L PiT, or a renaming of files), Starfox has said series represented well with already 3 characters under It's wings, and Ridley was a boss twice, but metroid did get some justified representation (more stages than everyone else cept DK, LoZ, Mario, and Pokemon - That's saying something) - Really, in the past It's for sure helped character's make there way in over other's. (Let's be reminded the melee polls helped influence brawl)

4)"If claus is so important, why did he only have a sticker?" - Uh, mother barely got any trophies: Click this - While this may sound ridiculous: All bosses are actually rather big, and not quite PC Size. Of course, It's probably also because of planning so a bunch of other bosses and stuff wouldn't get added in in the middle of construction, as he did have most characters in the game in some way or form by the end of 2005 (discluding sonic, as usual)

5)Wait, why isn't he the Assist Trophy and Jeff is? - Because for this game, Mother 2 was even more ignored than mother 3, and jeff already had a 3d render.

6)Moves - Claus brings to the table: A Jetpack (+ Batwings), A lightning sword, A blaster attached to his other hand, Pig Bombs, and PSI. Porky has...Ramming into people...And from mother 3...Stealing lucas's PSI Attacks...And mainly insulting in that too. Remember: Moveset and variety from the rest of the crowd does help when selecting character's, and does bring up interesting for the staff.

7)Back to role on number 2 - Claus on the other hand plays a pretty big role in the game, from being your brother at the beginning, to causing problems, to racing against you to pull out the needles, to the final battle. Basically through beginning and end, making all sorts of questions on where is he, and who that masked man is.

So really, with porky you're stripped down to an awkward side villian that doesn't bring a lot to the table and doesn't have a whole to the table...Or any interest at all. The only reason that even makes sense for him to be in over claus is the fact he's the only reoccuring character with an actual role asides from giygas (who for sure wouldn't work), which doesn't really equal much in the grand scheme. That's just how I see it as anyways (And yes, I have beaten both games...Have yet to beat Mother 1)
 

ToiseOfChoice

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If so, then please explain how porky is above The Masked Man
I never established any hierarchy between Claus and Porky, or any of the new characters for that matter. Except F-Zero, that's distinctly Goroh > Shadow > Jody.

I'd actually prefer Claus myself, but Porky is alright too. I don't think you give him enough credit though, especially in regards to original movesets (spider mech is more unique than PSI/sword/gun) and importance to the series (he's directly responsible for at least two major parts in EB and ALL of M3). He even got a boss and a half and his own stage in Brawl (and his theme twice), so he's certainly gotten a lot of focus from Sakurai.

Anyway, yeah, there's no real order to that list aside from "been in Smash" and "hasn't been in Smash."
 

Thirdkoopa

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I never established any hierarchy between Claus and Porky, or any of the new characters for that matter. Except F-Zero, that's distinctly Goroh > Shadow > Jody.

I'd actually prefer Claus myself, but Porky is alright too. I don't think you give him enough credit though, especially in regards to original movesets (spider mech is more unique than PSI/sword/gun) and importance to the series (he's directly responsible for at least two major parts in EB and ALL of M3). He even got a boss and a half and his own stage in Brawl (and his theme twice), so he's certainly gotten a lot of focus from Sakurai.

Anyway, yeah, there's no real order to that list aside from "been in Smash" and "hasn't been in Smash."
Oh forgot that part, I'd however enjoy to see your opinion's on hierarchy on the full roster (I didn't really have much of that in mine) I'll have to keep all this for the next person who screams porky in the thread. :laugh:

I am a bit undercrediting him, but let's face it, while he may have a spider mech, It doesn't do much ("Porky Rammed into you! Porky said nasty things! I will never die!" etc) Or just steals lucas/ness's PSI Attacks. On the other hand, what character do we have with a gun and a sword? Heck. He doesn't even do much as a boss (porky rammed into you, porky used drill shine, porky jumped up and threw a lazer...Yay?)

While in EB, He isn't a totally dead villian to it, but Mother 3 he is responsible for more than I give him credit for. I'll give him that, but in a way to put it: He's essentially the Andross of both games (Except less important...And not exactly the lead role in both either) And we all know what happened with andross for obvious reasons (However, porky COULD Still work, but this is based on the knowledge we have with An AC Char/Ridley/Sukapon and so forth)

Boss - That may also on the other hand mean that sakurai thought about him at one point along with the rest of the team and said "Screw it, let's just not have him playable" Stage...It's his.

I mean, I wouldn't mind porky in over claus in the future considering I'm a huge Mother fan (Just as long as he's in his EB Mech) But all signs point to claus, If we are even to get another mother rep in this game/in the future (Downloadable content - It can make hopes happen...Come on sakurai and devs, do it)

Ah; I see. I think your list is actually pretty good/accurate. I just kinda wtf'd at jody at first (Also lack of geno/paper mario, but while those two have chances, they're kinda 50/50, so I can understand that lacking them)
 

SmashChu

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I have a quarrel with some of the points. Allow me to explain.
3)Sakurai's Interest - The top 7 character's mentioned in Sakurai's journal were (no particular order): Geno, Ridley, Krystal, Claus, Ike, Diddy Kong, and King Dedede. Three are in brawl, Geno was POSSIBLY Planned (Or could've been M&L PiT, or a renaming of files), Starfox has said series represented well with already 3 characters under It's wings, and Ridley was a boss twice, but metroid did get some justified representation (more stages than everyone else cept DK, LoZ, Mario, and Pokemon - That's saying something) - Really, in the past It's for sure helped character's make there way in over other's. (Let's be reminded the melee polls helped influence brawl)
The problem with that poll is that it's not the total votes. These are only the ones Sakurai replied to. This is why the roster did not follow those votes.
4)"If claus is so important, why did he only have a sticker?" - Uh, mother barely got any trophies: Click this - While this may sound ridiculous: All bosses are actually rather big, and not quite PC Size. Of course, It's probably also because of planning so a bunch of other bosses and stuff wouldn't get added in in the middle of construction, as he did have most characters in the game in some way or form by the end of 2005 (discluding sonic, as usual)
Not sure the spiel about bosses.
5)Wait, why isn't he the Assist Trophy and Jeff is? - Because for this game, Mother 2 was even more ignored than mother 3, and jeff already had a 3d render.
Jeff's 3D render was Melee. They used graphics from other games, yes, but not that far back.

6)Moves - Claus brings to the table: A Jetpack (+ Batwings), A lightning sword, A blaster attached to his other hand, Pig Bombs, and PSI. Porky has...Ramming into people...And from mother 3...Stealing lucas's PSI Attacks...And mainly insulting in that too. Remember: Moveset and variety from the rest of the crowd does help when selecting character's, and does bring up interesting for the staff.
You can make a moveset for any character. Look at the Make your Move threads. NOTE:One reason why I hate looking though them is because characters are not just defined by their movesets.
7)Back to role on number 2 - Claus on the other hand plays a pretty big role in the game, from being your brother at the beginning, to causing problems, to racing against you to pull out the needles, to the final battle. Basically through beginning and end, making all sorts of questions on where is he, and who that masked man is.
Of course, who's controlling Claus. ;)

Also, let me say that people over estimate Claus. Claus isn't that relevant to many people. I really think we'll see Jeff before we see Claus. You'll be surprised. Earthbound/Mother fans love Jeff.

I'm not disagreeing with your argument. These were just flaws in your reason.
 

Thirdkoopa

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I have a quarrel with some of the points. Allow me to explain.
Sure, I'm willing to respond :D
The problem with that poll is that it's not the total votes. These are only the ones Sakurai replied to. This is why the roster did not follow those votes.
If sakurai replied to them, that for sure must mean he has some interest shown. We don't have any word on the total number. For sure, from the info we have of his mentions anyways, he sure has given a lot of attention to all those 7 I noted (3 PC's, Mario still got wario + moar stages, SF Got 3 reps still, Metroid got a good deal of stages and more bosses than everyone else)

Not sure the spiel about bosses.
Typo I assume?

Jeff's 3D render was Melee. They used graphics from other games, yes, but not that far back.
The point is that it was easier to just render jeff/any other M2 char into an AT Than to take the time and make claus into one + Outside of that, Mother 2 got nothing "New" In this game.

You can make a moveset for any character. Look at the Make your Move threads. NOTE:One reason why I hate looking though them is because characters are not just defined by their movesets.
You can make a moveset for a goomba. Heck, I can, but It's not that. It's that If they would be more filler to the roster or If they would stand out. Sakurai even has had the original idea of putting in a character to represent NES, and on Urban Fighter he said "What moves would this have? :l" Basically.

Of course, It's not the biggest deal, but it does help to different from the crowd, especially when we're getting probably somewhere around 10 newcomers (At least, not as downloadable content and on-disc)

Of course, who's controlling Claus. ;)
Porky, but porky pretty much was like"Yeah, go get the needles and distract that kid and stuff" - Which still he pretty much does.

Also, let me say that people over estimate Claus. Claus isn't that relevant to many people. I really think we'll see Jeff before we see Claus. You'll be surprised. Earthbound/Mother fans love Jeff.
People overestimate his chances for looking cool or so, like a few other arguements (Geno, We all have already been through it for page after page) I can agree with you on that, but Claus is however relevant to mother 3 more than Jeff is to Mother 2.

I like jeff too, Infact, he's my favorite party member asides from ness in Earthbound/M2, but truth be told, he's about as worthful as all the other character's from M2 or all the other pilots from F-Zero, regardless of popularity (which, claus still has, especially in the mother fanbase of starmen. I've seen claus by far suggested the most as a third Mother PC There)

I'm not disagreeing with your argument. These were just flaws in your reason.
Some flaws, be noted however I was typing that late at night, so I'm sure there's some stuff that's a bit awkward in the whole discussion. For a smash 4, I really doubt a third mother rep on-disc, but interview's point towards "If the next console has an HD, we'll have downloadable content" So, you never know.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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Keep in mind this is my own personal view of the hierarchy, and a lot of these can only be vaguely defined and are pretty close regardless. As such, they could be proven completely wrong when SSB4 comes out.

Here's the original list again.


Toad > Bowser Jr.

Toad has a longer history and doesn't have a good chunk of the fans hating him (also did really well on the Melee poll of all things). Bowser Jr. has a more active role in the games he appears in. The thing is, this could go either way since neither of them come off as particularly strong candidates (both are on my "might not even belong" list). We've got two Mario games coming out to give us more insight on this thankfully.

Dr. Mario > Paper Mario [alt costumes]

I believe a few things: one, any other version of Mario is only worth an alt costume at best. Two, no character will ever have more than one alt costume, if that. Three, Dr. Mario is the better choice. The model is way easier to make, it's a callback to Melee, and it's more popular than Paper Mario.


King K. Rool > Dixie Kong

K. Rool being the main villian of the series, whereas Dixie is kinda taking a backseat to DK and Diddy (except in stuff like Diddy Kong Racing and Mario spinoffs). Then again, Dixie had been planned to pair up with Diddy in Brawl, so Sakurai might come back to her in some form.


Kamek

Rhymes with Kamek. I'd actually prefer they just make him an AT and have him pop up a bunch in adventure mode.


Mona > Captain Syrup > Jimmy T.

Debatable between the first two since in a way, they're from seperate series (even though they're both Wario). Mona seemingly has the edge based on the shaft Wario Land got in Brawl, but Shake It may have changed that. Jimmy T. is clearly in 3rd and might not even belong on the list at all. Either way he won't be in SSB4.


Tingle

The thing about Tingle is that he's not really important to the Zelda series itself, but to his own spinoff games. I'm of the belief that he'd get a little rupee icon next to his name. For the record, I don't consider Toon Zelda/Sheik as seriously important.


Ridley

The baddest dude in town.


Krystal

The last important Star Fox character, no competition.


Mewtwo? = Future Pokemon?
Roy? = Future FE Lord?


I'm gonna be honest, I can't make any conclusion here. There's a LOT to consider for these two series. Does Sakurai intend to cycle in and out the latest characters? Does he care about the ones he got rid of? What about the fans? What about Ike and Lucario?

There's a lot of ways to interpret what'll happen, but the only thing I'm confident about is that we won't see any other currently existing characters from these two series. No Deoxys, no Sigurd, no Darkrai, no Micaiah. Their chance came and went.

I personally think he'll just bring back Mewtwo and Roy and consider adding a new character to each series. It seems like he just wants to add a new character from each series on top of all the previous ones. I figure that since Jigglypuff is still around long after her moment of glory, Ness is still around despite Lucas being planned to replace him, and both were intended to be in Brawl. Plus, you know, Mewtwo was supposed to be in 64 so Sakurai clearly has a thing for him, and the localization team almost took Roy without Marth in Melee (then decided to bring Marth since it didn't make sense to have one and not the other). They're also both really popular.

Anyway, these two are still up in the air for now.


Samurai Goroh > Black Shadow > Jody Summer

Samurai Goroh has been around since the SNES game and has always been played up as the rival to Captain Falcon. Given how prominent he is in F-Zero and even in Smash, he's the obvious choice. Black Shadow is the main villian (though this wasn't established until GX), he's a very big presence in the series, blah blah blah. Me and Pieman have been discussing Jody for the last few days so you can check my posts for more on her. Also keep in mind this basically states that Jody won't be in SSB4.


Porky > Claus

Tricked! Yeah, I do think Porky is more likely. More presence in the games and in Brawl. Considering he has a relation to both Ness and Lucas (as opposed to Claus, where it's just Lucas) as a primary antagonist, I really can't see any reason why Claus would get in over him. Keep in mind I personally prefer Claus; this is really just a "all signs point to Porky" kind of thing. And yes, the EB mech works fine, it's probably not much different than Bowser in size and shape.


I'm not gonna mention characters I left out in this post, but I'll discuss them after this one if you want.
 

RyuReiatsu

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I know this, That^ is my FE argument for Roy (against except I want M2 and we get one we get both) and sometimes VS. Lyn.

It just doesn't make sense to not give up potential for a sword user for one series and then go give an existing character a sword (that was in one game) in another.

Technically they have the same amount of SU right now and Ganon w/ sword and no new FE sword=more Swords for LOZ. IMO LOZ has close to as much potential as FE, so that screws over LOZ for FE. I love both so I can't be okay with that
So, choosing to ignore the fact that you looked so smart when you said "contradiction"? Hah.

Whether you can't be okay with that or not, you don't need to jump on people's throats. Hell, I feel so much more logical than you in every way at the moment. Technically, they made a smart move to remove Roy. Seeing as how he sucked and pretty much because people would've complained about certain move changes, that's for sure.

Don't get me wrong, I liked him. Plus I've never mentioned MICAIAH anywhere. I don't see her in Smash Bros... AT ALL.

In any case, LOZ could get rid of Toon Link and add different characters. That'd make -1 sword, then Ganon with a sword = +1 sword. 1 - 1 = 0.
Plus, just for your information... I haven't played Twilight Princess.
*thumbs up*

I'm out, I don't like this thread.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Porky > Claus
Wow...Surprisingly one of the only two I disagree with, as for why he could get in over porky:
1)Mentions
2)Moveset (Being less hard to work is a plus...Tho, I don't work there, so I can't tell If porky would or wouldn't be worth the development time. To be fair, claus could potentially have a bit of an annoying time grabbing things. We can't tell his specific opinions because Porky isn't widely requested enough to be mentioned in interviews, unlike Ridley/Sukapon/Etc.)
3)Role (Bigger role than porky has had throughout both games)

Probably a bit more I'm forgetting right now too.

Of course; It's still possible that porky could get in over Claus; Likely? Who knows. Possible? It's not something insanely ridiculous, unlike say, daroach added to the kirby series. (There's the random "lol" suggestion of the day)

And the only other one I'm in a bit of not agreeing with is the mario series; But really, this really has no concerte info of who sakurai prefers or anything, so I'll just leave it as that.

tl;dr: Seeing as we both at least prefer claus as a newcomer (We can at least agree on that :laugh: ), just take that as a third mother character, and add the first (possibly second in some cases) person to each of the existing series, and I'd be totally fine with that roster (Well, dicluding 3rd Parties/New Franchises/Retro/Potato)

speaking of which...

I'm not gonna mention characters I left out in this post, but I'll discuss them after this one if you want.
Go for mentioning other's, despite that we can't really have a hierchy on 3rd parties/retro chars/new series.

And since the roster has been discussed quite a bit already, I'll be throwing in a post full of ideas outside of that (An explination on how DLC Could work, possible stage builder and online improvements, etc)
 

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I have to say this because I think this has gone long enough. I don't think importance is all the important nor how heavily featured they are in recent games matters. I point you to this TV Tropes article which will also explain the demand for Geno, but let's not touch that one.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnsembleDarkhorse

Sakurai, who may I remind you might not work on the game, at least by himself, has these rules for character inclusion:

1. The character is a videogame character and has been on a Nintendo system.
2. The character can bring something new to the table
3. Should they be fighting
4. The character is someone people may be willing to play.
5. Contributes to the balance of game characters per series.

Note that importance is not factor. However, importance can play a factor into popularity.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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1)Mentions
2)Moveset (Being less hard to work is a plus...Tho, I don't work there, so I can't tell If porky would or wouldn't be worth the development time. To be fair, claus could potentially have a bit of an annoying time grabbing things. We can't tell his specific opinions because Porky isn't widely requested enough to be mentioned in interviews, unlike Ridley/Sukapon/Etc.)
3)Role (Bigger role than porky has had throughout both games)
1. Mentions what?
2. Yeah, it's probably a little easier, but I really doubt it's anything troublesome. Just a small version of his boss form as the EB mech.
3. Kinda funny how Porky's role in EB was pretty similar to Claus in M3. But anyway, no, Claus isn't more important than Porky. They're both vital to M3 and Porky's got EB on top of that.


And the only other one I'm in a bit of not agreeing with is the mario series; But really, this really has no concerte info of who sakurai prefers or anything, so I'll just leave it as that.
Not surprised, that one's really iffy. Definitely could go either way.


Anyway, were there any characters aside from Geno and Paper Mario that you thought belonged on the list? Or was it just those two?
 

BBQTV

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ah the EnsembleDarkhorse trope i know it well

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EnsembleDarkhorse/VideoGames


How has Geno not been mentioned yet? Fans have been begging for him to make another appearance anywhere, but he has yet to show up outside his role in the original RPG.
He got a cameo in Mario And Luigi, but beyond that, the reason he hasn't appeared is likely due to Squenix still holding the rights to the character.
 
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@Ryu

Ganondorf- Ganondorf has used swords only a handful of times (If we are counting Ganon too). His most common weapon (behind magic which is what his moveset is most based on now) was a trident. The only weapon I would like to see him wield, ever, is the trident, and even that I am very much against. The LoZ characters are not the _____ from _______ game. They are the epitome of the series, with minor references to specific games (Gale boomerang). Ganon's moveset as it is now is a perfect moveset to reprsent Ganon as a whole, instead of representing ______ Ganon from ______ game.

Also, I don't care for Geno, simply because I never really cared for the game (played it once, a long while back), but I guess a fighter, He'd be an ok addition.
 

Thirdkoopa

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1. Mentions what?
2. Yeah, it's probably a little easier, but I really doubt it's anything troublesome. Just a small version of his boss form as the EB mech.
3. Kinda funny how Porky's role in EB was pretty similar to Claus in M3. But anyway, no, Claus isn't more important than Porky. They're both vital to M3 and Porky's got EB on top of that.
1. The jourmal mentions I mentioned in the first post on this all. If he ranked up there high on the mentions sakurai replied to with those other character's there, then that's saying something.
3.Similar =/= is. There roles are pretty equal, but as I said, claus is something that goes on mysteriously throughout the plot (Similar to Bowser Jr...heh), however, Porky you only truly find out that he's doing a lot of this at almost the end of the game, through a dude you don't want to hear and wishing you could speed it up. :laugh: (the part where you're forced to here that loooooong diolouge before the last fasaad battle)


Anyway, were there any characters aside from Geno and Paper Mario that you thought belonged on the list? Or was it just those two?
Well...It seems everything's insanely reasonable outside of that (Which, I have yet to see you say anything on geno, but geno's one of those "Do it or don't" Things as with all other third-parties) But I'd like to see a list of possible canidates for third-parties/new franchises/retro's, but chances are It's probably what most people here think already.
 

.WC.

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At least two of these Mario characters should get into the next game: Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, Toad, Geno

Also, someone needs to make a good Tingle moveset, as I really don't see him getting in at all.
 

n88

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Mewtwo? = Future Pokemon?
This is kinda messed up. Mewtwo will most likely come back, yes. But he won't be competing with a 5th Gen Pokemon. The 5th Gen is pretty much a lock. Mewtwo will get competition from Lucario. Which he will win easily.

If Pokemon has six characters, then Lucario will likely return as well. But if Pokemon only gets five characters, you can kiss Lucario's furry blue butt good-bye.

@WC

Wizzerd can haz Tingle moveset. I think he linked to it a page or two back.

Geno should not get in. AT ALL. He's a character who appeared in two Mario spin-offs, one of which was a mere cameo. He's got a very vocal, dedicated fanbase, but he's unknown to most people. I don't care if there are 60,000 videos on YouTube supporting Geno. I'm willing to bet that Sakurai does not use Youtube as a basis for making decisions.
 
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Mario shouldn't get two if LoZ and the other big one (whom I forget at the moment, Poke?) get two as well, which would undoubably include Tingle and another toon somebody.

...I think, Toise will destory me if I'm wrong
 

SmashChu

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Sure, I'm willing to respond :D
OK then.

If sakurai replied to them, that for sure must mean he has some interest shown. We don't have any word on the total number. For sure, from the info we have of his mentions anyways, he sure has given a lot of attention to all those 7 I noted (3 PC's, Mario still got wario + moar stages, SF Got 3 reps still, Metroid got a good deal of stages and more bosses than everyone else)
This is true, but it's not aggregate by any means. Like you said, it is incomplete, so they actual results may be skewed.

Typo I assume?
No. I was wondering why you jumped topics to bosses. I was also going to mention Jeff here, but I left that towards the end.

The point is that it was easier to just render jeff/any other M2 char into an AT Than to take the time and make claus into one + Outside of that, Mother 2 got nothing "New" In this game.
Since his model was from Melee, it would not make Jeff's model easier. The model had to be made from scratch. Jeff being an assist is important.

You can make a moveset for a goomba. Heck, I can, but It's not that. It's that If they would be more filler to the roster or If they would stand out. Sakurai even has had the original idea of putting in a character to represent NES, and on Urban Fighter he said "What moves would this have? :l" Basically.

Of course, It's not the biggest deal, but it does help to different from the crowd, especially when we're getting probably somewhere around 10 newcomers (At least, not as downloadable content and on-disc)
Yes, but there are numerous characters that can have movesets. Sakurai has shown he can make a good moveset for any character. It is doubtful he'd chose Masked Man because he has a good template.


People overestimate his chances for looking cool or so, like a few other arguements (Geno, We all have already been through it for page after page) I can agree with you on that, but Claus is however relevant to mother 3 more than Jeff is to Mother 2.

I like jeff too, Infact, he's my favorite party member asides from ness in Earthbound/M2, but truth be told, he's about as worthful as all the other character's from M2 or all the other pilots from F-Zero, regardless of popularity (which, claus still has, especially in the mother fanbase of starmen. I've seen claus by far suggested the most as a third Mother PC There)
One thing to remember is that Mother 3 had a more fleshed out story, so most of the characters in that game will seem like they are more important. I'm not going to argue who is more relevant to the story.

I'll go back and look at Starman. I made a thread for a Smash 4 poll and there were a lot of Mother suggestions (which was to be expected).

Some flaws, be noted however I was typing that late at night, so I'm sure there's some stuff that's a bit awkward in the whole discussion. For a smash 4, I really doubt a third mother rep on-disc, but interview's point towards "If the next console has an HD, we'll have downloadable content" So, you never know.
Well, it's not that your entire argument is flawed. These were just little things I decided to point out. I agree with you that Claus would be more likely to turn into a playable character.

Sakurai, who may I remind you might not work on the game, at least by himself, has these rules for character inclusion:

1. The character is a videogame character and has been on a Nintendo system.
2. The character can bring something new to the table
3. Should they be fighting
4. The character is someone people may be willing to play.
5. Contributes to the balance of game characters per series.

Note that importance is not factor. However, importance can play a factor into popularity.
You misinterpreted #2 (which is number 1 on other list, but you added the Nintendo system thing). It actually goes "The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game." This doesn't mean the character has to be unique in any way. Wolf made people want to play the game even if he was another Fox.

The easiest was to understand this is to understand the null hypothesis which is "The character must make people not want to play the game." I say Tingle will never make it because he fits the null hypothesis (which is the polar opposite). He would make people not want to play it, so he'd be a bad character to add. This is a good way to look at characters. If the character is loathed, then they are bad to add (Bowser Jr is another one of a lesser extent. Most people find him annoying, so they would not want to play the game for him).
 

n88

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@Shino

Sakurai likes to keep LoZ, Mario, and Pokemon about equal, it seems. So there's a chance he might increase the number of characters so they can all have the same number of slots.

Hypothetically, were the big three (LoZ may not be on par with Mario and Pokemon in terms of sales, but that's due to bad taste. And Sakurai doesn't really seem to care) to gain two characters each, it's probably go like this:

Mario:

BJ
Toad

Chance of Rosalina over one of those two, if her character stays alive.

LoZ

Tingle
Toon Zelda

Maybe Vaati, should he start appearing in games again.

Pokemon

Mewtwo
5th Gen Poke

No competition for these guys.

EDIT: @SmashChu

Name everyone you know who wouldn't play SSB4 if Tingle was in it. The only people who really know Tingle well enough to loathe him are the diehard Nintendo fans who would buy the game no matter what.
 

Paper Mario Master

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Dang I didn't mean to scare off Ryu, that guys sensitive............sorry dude......

The only problem I have with that n88 is no PM (Him over Toad for me as long as he no clone) and LOZ, TZ.......idk I don't really want her or Tingle (especially if she has Toon Sheik) I know I've been over Tingle numerous times and I don't wanna again. But TZ is something that hasn't come up very much.

Vaati, Toon Ganon, Skull Kid or even Midna/Wolfy (wow how many times have I posted that?) would be better imo, They all have somethin goin for them but TZ doesn't really........
 

Thirdkoopa

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Before a bit of this discussion continues, I must ask: What are some mother things (asides from characters) that you would like to see in the next smash game?

From Earthbound: More music, Especially the final boss theme. I'd also like to see a new stage, like The Devil's Machine, or Winters (Not many snowy stages asides from Ice Climber's ones) But If we just got one returning: I'd rather see fourside. Fourside could have a moonside alt similar to Mushroomy Kingdom, and same with Onett and threed.

From Mother 3: More music...That isn't porky's theme twice. For a new stage, Ohshoe Castle, Saturn Valley (Could work for repping both) Or Thunder Tower...If they're however to make a stage return, just bring back New Pork City, which is fine by me. Oh and a duster AT Would be cool...And more trophies would be nice.

Back to this now:

This is true, but it's not aggregate by any means. Like you said, it is incomplete, so they actual results may be skewed.
May be, as we said, It's knowledge we know of. Maybe sakurai found the rest of the mentions uninteresting. Who knows? We'll probably get a more concrete answer which will support this later when it's actually announced...Or we may never know.

No. I was wondering why you jumped topics to bosses. I was also going to mention Jeff here, but I left that towards the end.
I jumped onto them because usually some people go "WAIT, WHY WAS PORKY CHOSEN FOR A BOSS INSTEAD OF CLAUS" Or "WAIT, WHY IS JEFF AN AT THEN INSTEAD OF CLAUS" Because bosses generally seem to be characters that sakurai wanted to make in the game in some form, but weren't as suitable for PC's.

Since his model was from Melee, it would not make Jeff's model easier. The model had to be made from scratch. Jeff being an assist is important.
Jeff - You already have the melee model (and clay models)
Claus - You would have to start on making a 3d render since there's not even any official one.

That's where I'm getting at, unless you're mentioning something else. If any other questions on why jeff is an AT instead of claus, It's because M3 already had enough rep in Brawl. (All new music being M3, M3 gets a new stage, M3 Gets a new character, M3 Type franklyn badge, Porky's style from M3...Yeah, I got my point across)

Of course, It CAN Support Jeff in that sense still, and porky being a boss. It's relevant; But Is it that relevant to decide who becomes the 3rd mother PC? Not quite.

Yes, but there are numerous characters that can have movesets. Sakurai has shown he can make a good moveset for any character. It is doubtful he'd chose Masked Man because he has a good template.
Hello Ridley/Sukapon. Of course, It wouldn't only be for that, but If It came down to the two for sakurai, It'd probably go by that seeing with past results (Which is a big "If")

One thing to remember is that Mother 3 had a more fleshed out story, so most of the characters in that game will seem like they are more important. I'm not going to argue who is more relevant to the story.
Basically, they both are, but claus just appears earlier instead of not having any clue who in the world porky is until the last chapter - But yes, the story is more fleshed out compared to the other mother games.

I'll go back and look at Starman. I made a thread for a Smash 4 poll and there were a lot of Mother suggestions (which was to be expected).
Well, yeah. I've lurked there a bit and I can tell it gets suggested quite a lot. Next thing after that is ninten...Or a random party member.

Well, it's not that your entire argument is flawed. These were just little things I decided to point out. I agree with you that Claus would be more likely to turn into a playable character.
It's fine. Brings up an interesting discussion since there's barely been any mother discussion in this thread as I've seen. However, IF Jeff or Porky showed up as a PC, I honestly wouldn't mind. This series is one of the more debateable hierarchy's.

This is kinda messed up. Mewtwo will most likely come back, yes. But he won't be competing with a 5th Gen Pokemon. The 5th Gen is pretty much a lock. Mewtwo will get competition from Lucario. Which he will win easily.

If Pokemon has six characters, then Lucario will likely return as well. But if Pokemon only gets five characters, you can kiss Lucario's furry blue butt good-bye.
Chances are that pokemon won't get six reps, because not only would mario at least have to, but because of PT, which would make pokemon have EIGHT Movesets.

If the series gets a newcomer, It'll be a 5th gen pokemon, and mewtwo will probably replace lucario...So either way we're going to get a bunch of people bawing. (Unless the other shows up as DLC Or so)

...Or sakurai may not even give pokemon a new rep and just replace lucario with a 5th (Or whatever gen it is by then) Rep.

Geno should not get in. AT ALL. He's a character who appeared in two Mario spin-offs, one of which was a mere cameo. He's got a very vocal, dedicated fanbase, but he's unknown to most people. I don't care if there are 60,000 videos on YouTube supporting Geno. I'm willing to bet that Sakurai does not use Youtube as a basis for making decisions.
However, Sakurai and devs has noticed the puppet for sure (Tied for first with King Dedede on the part of the mentions list that was shown publicly) And may have possibly had a song that was cut back (forest maze, key: may) And you already got your core four, and wario/yoshi.

There could easily be him and an actual square enix rep. The thing about the four that all have possible chances is that they're all fishy. Geno has liscensing stuff, Paper Mario's another variation of mario despite being able to be unique, Bowser Jr has had no mentions of interest from sakurai, and Toad is already part of Peach's moveset, thus may be viewed as a "lolno" from him.

But we can all agree anything outside of that is rather slim. (And If you want to debate with this a ton, say hi to fatmanonice)
 
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Toon Zelda has even been in more games than "wolfy" (Who is a dumb character from an awful game)

Vaati- Minor, but seems semi-plausible

Toon Ganon- Can't really support him and be against TZ...

Skull Kid- You and I may be his only supporters...
 

Pieman0920

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@Toise

The problem here is that you think Jody matters enough to be considered part of F-Zero's "balance". Her role within the games, is just the female character who at one point needed to be saved by the main character. Overall, her importance isn't even comparable to Krystal's in Star Fox either, because while both are essentially the main girl of their series, the degrees in which each represent their trope are different. Krystal had a major role two games, and a supporting role in one game. Jody had a background role in one game, and a role as a mission objective in another. (Mind you I'm not taking into effect here that they were playable in most of these roles due to the nature of their playability)

So while yes, Jody is the main female of the group, that doesn't mean she's part of the "balance" of the series, since her place in that role is so small. In reality, F-Zero is actually much closer to Kirby than it is to Star Fox, since people have only been asking for Samurai Goroh and Black Shadow, which parallels Kirby's group of Hero, Rival, Villain (assuming you count Dedede as a villain here) as opposed to Star Fox's group of Hero, Lancer, Rival, Female. In essence you're peddling for Jody to fill in a trope that she doesn't do very well for a spot at no one really wants her to take. While I'll fully bite into the idea that eventually series will have a balance when it comes to the characters that make up a series, what you're suggesting here breaks up that balance, and it shows by the lack of support for Jody.

Thus, it makes no sense to me that you include a character who isn't used much within her series in the first place, isn't very popular, and would have to have a entirely artificial moveset, yet don't include other characters with similar situations.


In addition, I'd like to state that Krystal's lack of inclusion in Brawl wasn't because Sakurai thought that Fox>Falco>Wolf>Krystal, but rather just Fox>Falco>Wolf, as if I recall correctly, he didn't actually know who Krystal was once questioned about her. (I don't think though that this would mean anything for a F-Zero discussion though other than dropping the chances of DB and Phoenix)

Also I've never fully thought out a ideal roster because I just never bothered with it/I hate putting in slots like "next FE-lord/5th Gen pokymanz" and thus generally think of ideas that use things in the now, rather than things for the future. :dizzy:

Incidently, I think that Porky would be a much better pick than Claus, even though I don't think Mother should get another character. From what I understand, Porky's role in the series is larger, and I don't think there would be any problem with making the spider mech smaller. Then again, I don't really play the Mother games, so my opinion isn't good for that.
 

.WC.

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Toon Zelda has even been in more games than "wolfy" (Who is a dumb character from an awful game)

Vaati- Minor, but seems semi-plausible

Toon Ganon- Can't really support him and be against TZ...

Skull Kid- You and I may be his only supporters...

I'm for Vaati. And Skull Kid I had wanted from the beginning, but I thought he lost any remaining support months before brawls release.

On another note, has anyone considered plausible character choices from series that aren't already included in the Brawl roster? I know the talk is mainly about 3rd party characters, but there are still other small series linked to Nintendo. Does anyone have ideas?
 

n88

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@thirdkoopa

Already said hi to him. The only way the puppet is getting in is if Sakurai has some kind of Geno-bias. He's not well-known, did poorly on Melee polls, he's insignificant (Only appearing in spin-offs), and he's third-party. Logically, a worse pick than roughly every other possible candidate. Admittedly, logic isn't the entire basis for the roster, so he's got a shot. But his odds are extremely slim.
 

Paper Mario Master

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@ Shino, yeah I don't want "Wolfy" either..........but Midna would be cool........play TP you should know what I'm talking about

@WC

Ray, Custom Robo
ISAAC, GOLDEN SUN
Saki or that new guy, Sin and Punishment

there are others but I really want Isaac, a lot
 

Pieman0920

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Mallow is a worse pick technically. :V

Also, because you mentioned it earlier, n88, and because it bugs me so much, Lucario and Mewtwo aren't in competition for another Pokemon spot. Lucario's role in Brawl was the Pokemon from the latest generation, much like Pichu was. Now if Lucario can be the Pokemon representing the 4th gen, and not the final gen is the real debate when it comes to Lucario coming in next time. In reality, I don't think Mewtwo has a shot unless he takes over PT/Jig's spot (which is counter productive since it will cause more fan backlash) or if a sixth spot for Pokemon comes up.
 
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@ Shino, yeah I don't want "Wolfy" either..........but Midna would be cool........play TP you should know what I'm talking about

@WC

Ray, Custom Robo
ISAAC, GOLDEN SUN
Saki or that new guy, Sin and Punishment

there are others but I really want Isaac, a lot
I have played Twilight Princess, I think the game was absolutley abysmal, my least favorite Zelda game to date.

I, too, REALLY want Issac, Golden Sun (1 and 2) were two of my favorite games of all time

I could also be cool for Baloon Figher >.>

EDIT: I am far against Starfy and am indifferent towards an AC rep, though I think it'd be a waste of a charatcer slot.
 

n88

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Mallow is a worse pick technically. :V

Also, because you mentioned it earlier, n88, and because it bugs me so much, Lucario and Mewtwo aren't in competition for another Pokemon spot. Lucario's role in Brawl was the Pokemon from the latest generation, much like Pichu was. Now if Lucario can be the Pokemon representing the 4th gen, and not the final gen is the real debate when it comes to Lucario coming in next time. In reality, I don't think Mewtwo has a shot unless he takes over PT/Jig's spot (which is counter productive since it will cause more fan backlash) or if a sixth spot for Pokemon comes up.
Yes, Lucario's role is as the current-gen rep. Meaning he will be replaced by a 5th gen Poke. Leaving one last slot, and Mewtwo and Lucario w/real potential to return. Mewtwo is more popular than Lucario, and Sakurai likes Mewtwo, so Mewtwo would get in. Seems pretty simple to me.
 

Thirdkoopa

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@thirdkoopa

Already said hi to him. The only way the puppet is getting in is if Sakurai has some kind of Geno-bias. He's not well-known, did poorly on Melee polls, he's insignificant (Only appearing in spin-offs), and he's third-party. Logically, a worse pick than roughly every other possible candidate. Admittedly, logic isn't the entire basis for the roster, so he's got a shot. But his odds are extremely slim.
Good.

Spin-offs? Technically, you could say Doctor Mario's a spin-off too. Mario RPG's actually have a story and whatnot and aren't mindless filler of karts or golf clubs...Or then daisy would actually be a viable PC.

Melee polls? And the brawl polls take effect now like the melee polls did back then.

Sure, logically you could say he's the worst pick between the four, but as you said, some of Sakurai's rules are rather different than what we think. Sonic got in based upon fan request.

@WC:
Isaac, an AC Rep (Tho, doubtful. I'm fine with the stage), Sukapon (First nintendo fighting game needs representation outside of a sticker)

Outside of those three that I really want, A S&P Rep, Custom Robo, Starfy, Little Mac, and other's would be pretty cool too. I'd like to see more of a focus on bringing new franchises in, as with brawl we only got olimar outside of the retro's...And In melee outside of retro's we only got Fire Emblem.
 

n88

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@thirdkoopa

Yes, I know the Brawl polls now take precedence over the Melee polls, but how much happened between the two to substantially increase Geno's popularity? Oh, yeah. NOTHING. Sonic got in based on fan request, but you're kidding yourslef if you think Geno's support rivals Sonic's. Having a story doesn't mean it's not a spin-off. Any Mario game that isn't a platformer is a spin-off. Perhaps spin-offs of slightly higher quality, but spin-offs nonetheless.

As for new series, I would love to see Mach Rider make an appearance.
 
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@thirdkoopa

Yes, I know the Brawl polls now take precedence over the Melee polls, but how much happened between the two to substantially increase Geno's popularity? Oh, yeah. NOTHING. Sonic got in based on fan request, but you're kidding yourslef if you think Geno's support rivals Sonic's. Having a story doesn't mean it's not a spin-off. Any Mario game that isn't a platformer is a spin-off. Perhaps spin-offs of slightly higher quality, but spin-offs nonetheless.

As for new series, I would love to see Mach Rider make an appearance.
Mach Rider would be ill (as long as BF got in too;) )
and i realized I forgot about an Advanced Wars character, which would be awesome as well.
 
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