[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Neo Exdeath]

@drag0nscythe: Sakurai barely posted 1/5 of a character's moveset in the Dojo. Specials may be flashy, but most of the time, they're useless. The other moves are what really matter.

 

[Clownbot]

@drag0nscythe: Sakurai barely posted 1/5 of a character's moveset in the Dojo. Specials may be flashy, but most of the time, they're useless. The other moves are what really matter.

I think both of you are being a bit too drastic. DS, Specials aren't always the most important part of the set, but they certainly aren't useless, Neo.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

^ I said most of the time. While Jiggs and Ganon's specials are useless, MK's and Snake's certainly aren't. Though I agree that I might have been a bit drastic.

 

[n88]

@Clownbot
Nope. Referring to an actual small community.

Not@Clownbot

Anyway, as for the current argument....I'm not getting any further into it than I already am. I don't think it's necessary, but I wouldn't mind if they got new specials. Basically, I'm not drastically opposed to the idea, I would just rather see resources allocated elsewhere.

EDIT: @Neo

Ganondorf's NSpecial is useless. His B-Side is one of the best moves in the game, IMO. He needs the other two for recovery/approach.

 

[Big-Cat]

You could say that comes from crappy balancing. The way I see it, specials should be a big part of a character's game.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

^ Why do you say that?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@drag0nscythe: Sakurai barely posted 1/5 of a character's moveset in the Dojo. Specials may be flashy, but most of the time, they're useless. The other moves are what really matter.

False, Specials that are poorly implemented are useless.

I'll uyse Ganon as an example, as I am most farmiliar with him.

Ganon has two specials that are useful, and one that is useless, and one that is situational.

Warlock Punch- This is a useless attack, yes. Flashy but hardly useable

Geuredo(sp) Dragon- Debatable the third most useful attack in Ganon' s arsenal, and definetly his best ground option. Gerodeu chasing is a rising AT of Ganon, it srts up for pefect combos, can Suicide for a full stock lead, among his fastest attacks, etc. Even for casuals, the Gereduo + lead-up isn't rediculously hard (like Gerodeu chasing is)

Dark Rise (or whatever its called)- Although rather poor for recovery, this attack can **** poorly timed edgehogs or those who just happen to be on the ledge while still able to recover after. This attack almost always kills decently damaged characters hanging on a ledge (when applicable)

Wizrd Kick- Good for closing distance on campers and can destroy spot-dodges. A few other uses but otherwise, useless


Also- Diddy's meta-game is centralized around his bannana toss (or so i have heard) and Wario's specials are all usefull in destoying approach or revovery

 

[Neo Exdeath]

@Everyone: I said most specials. Not all.

 

[Big-Cat]

^ Why do you say that?

The specials are what define the character. Thus, their specials should play a significant role in their strategies. If you were to watch a Street Fighter match, it's incredibly rare to not see a single special being used because they are vital moves.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

@KumaOso: Well, I guess I sorta agree with that. Though, the problem is, some characters have specials that don't define them, like Toony or the MOTHER boys.

 

[Big-Cat]

@KumaOso: Well, I guess I sorta agree with that. Though, the problem is, some characters have specials that don't define them, like Toony or the MOTHER boys.

And that's a problem I've had with this series for far too long. I'm okay with Ness (aside from no PK Rockin'), but you could give Lucas' ENTIRE moveset to Kumatora and it fits like a glove for her, more so than Lucas. I'm not even going to go in Toon Link's wasted potential.

Nonetheless, the special moves should still be an essential part of the gameplay.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Out of fairness, Toon Link's specials DO define him because he's Link, hence the emphasis on the sword, use of the bow, bombs, boomerang, hookshot, and Spin Slash. If they want to up the "Toon" factor, they should just add the Deku Leaf parachute after an aerial Spin Slash (like Peach and Mr. G&W).

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Everyone: I said most specials. Not all.

Thats what the point of my post was to show, most characters have useful specials. With the exception of a few characters, the specials of a character are useful. Out of every characters, there may be 1 special that is useless, sometimes two, sometimes none, but most chaarcters have mostly good specials. Assuming it balances out to 1 per character thats 1/4 of the moves, certainly not "most"

 

[Starphoenix]

Gannondorf could easily be improved if they simply replaced his standard special (Warlock Punch) with his ball of magic energy attack (a staple of his after all). A decent distance special could improve his over all ability as a fighter, minimizing some of his short comings.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Gannondorf could easily be improved if they simply replaced his standard special (Warlock Punch) with his ball of magic energy attack (a staple of his after all). A decent distance special could improve his over all ability as a fighter, minimizing some of his short comings.

We've had this arguement before, but I'll present my issues once more.

Ganondorf, as a fighter, would become broken in the event of him given any form of projectile.

Ganon has three problems: No projectiles (Forcing him to play defensily), Large (comboed easily), Laggy attacks( But very powerful attacks)

If ganondorf was given a projectile, he would be able to camp against distant foes, and destroy anyone up close. If ganon gets close he can deliver KO's in quick time. He already as one of the best non reflecor/absorbing characters, with his attacks able to rucmp or clank almost all projectiles. If he has this and a projectile of his own, his game would have few holes.

If you want to moan about him needed a buff because of his teir placement then first recall a simple buff to lag is all he needs, evidenced by him being 11 on the melee list, and I also am against using Teirs as a reason for anything, because of personal opinons of Tiers (It'd be pointless to go into it so I won't)

 

[Pieman0920]

I didn't directly counter your arguments because A) arguing with you is pointless unless it rubs off on someone else (since you never change your mind but OTHER people here will) and B) no one here pays attention to F-Zero anything but you and me. It'd have the same effect if we talked about Billy for ten pages aside from that one guy going "OKAY NEW TOPIC!"

But you should at least give me your explanation for something like this when it seems so different from everything you normally go on about.

So, Jody counts. Look at what's she's got:

** Her own satellite character (same for Goroh and Black Shadow)

You excluded several other satellite characters though, so it doesn't make sense that Jody counts more than they do.

** A chapter in GX (same for Goroh, Michael Chain, Deathborne, and kinda Silver Neelsen; GX was about Falcon and Black Shadow anyway)

Don't forget the Creators....though I don't think they will ever be mentioned again, even in F-Zero, let alone Smash. :V

** A major role in GP Legend (which from the sounds of it you don't know anything about, can't blame you for that though)
** A story mode in the GP Legend GBA game (along with Falcon, Goroh, Black Shadow, Jack Levin, Zoda, Ryu Suzaku, and Lisa Brilliant; not gonna blame you for not knowing that either)

I'm not really counting those in for your own sake really. Jody does have a important role within those games, but so do several other characters. If you really think that continuity from those F-Zero games will be included, then the first character that you've got to expect for F-Zero has got to be Ryu Suzaku. Since there are other characters that also push themselves into this (such as Zoda, and some of the other more heavily focused on characters from that continuity) it only hurts Jody's chances even more.

And the general prominence at which they show off her or White Cat (guess which two machines appeared in Captain Falcon's ending picture in Smash 64). Overall, she's getting roughly the same kind of special treatment in every game also reserved for Falcon, Goroh, and Black Shadow. The kind that other characters are lucky to get even once.

I wouldn't really think that the Smash 64 background picture would mean much, but if you wanted to give a character a chance based on the fact that they make cameos in Smash, and are generally promoted more in advertisments for their games, then you should know who the more likely character would be. In addition, as I'm not technically arguing Jody's lack of chances but rather the fact that you consider her as a more likely character than several other people you excluded, I must ask you about why they don't count as much, despite the fact that they have had bigger roles in their series/shown up on things like box art and other promotional material. In addition, the root of most of her roles in these games is that she's the girl character. (Though this changes up for the GP Legend continuity, if you really want to include that)

I'm not gonna pick on you for not knowing how popular she is. We've already had that kind of discussion before so I know exactly what you'd say in response to anything I tell you regarding it.

Well find me a group of people who actually like Jody Summers, and I'll shut up about this thing.

Now I still question whether you've actually played the games (or more importantly, whether you understand the series well enough in this context). I mean, really, you're comparing her to Pauline. PAULINE. That's your big analogy?

You're right, Pauline isn't a good comparison, as she's more important than Jody. Pauline is a damsel in distress, much like Jody was in her one chapter for GX, but unlike Jody, was this kidnapping was the focus of the game's story. In addition, Pauline is from one of the most well known games in video game history as opposed to Jody. (Saddly F-Zero doesn't get this type of focus ) While it could be argued that Jody is a policewoman as opposed to a...whatever Pauline was, it still doesn't help when Jody doesn't do a single thing outside of race around.


Really though, tell me, besides being a woman, why she stands a chance against other pottential F-Zero characters. Given what you've said before it makes no sense that you'd support a character who's only feature is that, and it also doesn't make sense that you're trying to make insults at me, since I remembered you as one of the people who didn't try to do that when debating. Because of that, I must wonder if you really are Toise.

 

[n88]

@Shino

Ganondorf is bad. Giving him a projectile w/no other changes would make him high-tier at the most. Probably no higher than mid.

EDIT: It really depends on the specifics of the projectile. saying "Projectile" isn't really much of a description.

For example, what if it was a very laggy projectile that dealt good damage, but no knockback (Like Fox's blaster). That wouldn't be very broken.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Shino

Ganondorf is bad. Giving him a projectile w/no other changes would make him high-tier at the most. Probably no higher than mid.

EDIT: It really depends on the specifics of the projectile. saying "Projectile" isn't really much of a description.

For example, what if it was a very laggy projectile that dealt good damage, but no knockback (Like Fox's blaster). That wouldn't be very broken.

That's where we disagree, you seem to think Ganon is awful based on teir placement (which I hold little credibility too), have you ever used Ganon (or Melee Ganon for that matter?) If Ganon was returned to his Melee counterpart (The two are similar in terms of A animations) and just cut out the lag of some his moves, then he'll become his old self.

Giving him a projectile will wreak havoc on his balance. The more powerful a character is, the less projectile-bility they are given (find me a heavyweight with a reasonable projectile) the reason no heavyweight has a projectile is that it would break his game letting him destroy close, and damage far away.

EDIT: This refers to the bolded

Assuming it ended up like Fox's blaster it might work (though thje fact he can deal damage from afar is still the most troubling part of this addition) I don't see a magic ball working that way without lookign massively awkward.

 

[n88]

@Shino

Ganondorf is one of my mains (In Brawl). I still think he's bad.

Dedede and Snake both have good projectiles.

It might be a tad strange, but I think it'd add some depth without being totally bizarre.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Shino

Ganondorf is one of my mains (In Brawl). I still think he's bad.

Dedede and Snake both have good projectiles.

It might be a tad strange, but I think it'd add some depth without being totally bizarre.

Snake is broken, plain and simple. his only faults are his ability to be combo'ed and a lack of decent areials.

DeDeDe's Waddle Dee throw isn;t much of a projectile imo. It's got little range or speed and isn't particularly useful.

Snake's projectiles are used to counter his poor ariel ability, while Ganon's are very powerful powerful and would force opponents onto the air, where he reigns king. Ganon has a poor ground game, and that is what needs fixing, the projectile would just pressure aerial combat and Ganon completely ***** in the air

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I'm guessing everybody's off the Special thing but I just want to add this:
I kinda half-main Toon Link. When do I use his specials? Spin Attack for recovery, any others when ever I have time to think about using a Bomb or Arrow. (I sometimes use his Boomerang but mostly when I'm in the air and direct it)

I don't want to add the Ganon thing.....again.....but,

I think he should have those Energy Balls like where he hits Link when they first meet (As a child when Zelda escapes [in OoT in case you didn't know...]) They might auto-release like his Punch but just send a ball of light/energy.

I like Ganon the way he is just don't make him so dang slow

 

[.WC.]

Snake isn't broken. All you have to do is get him in the air and he's ****ed. His recovery is terrible.

 

[n88]

Dedede throw is incredibly spammish and it's always a good idea to keep throwing when the other guy isn't expecting it. You might get a Gordo.

Snake isn't broken, but he is very good. Suppose it depends on your definition of broken, but w/e. This is SSB4 discussion, not tier list discussion.

Also, Samus, Link, Wolf, and Yoshi (All heavyweights) have at least one projectile.

Like I said, balance really depends on the properties of said projectile. I don't really think it'd be impossible to balance with various factors such as knockback, damage, priority, startlag, speed of projectile, size of projectile, endlag, and chargetime. There's a lot to manage there. If some balance can't be acheived, that's just sad.

EDIT: @WC

Snake's recovery isn't that bad when you consider the fact that he's a super-heavyweight, about the same weight as Bowser. Getting him into the air in the first place is easier said htan done. You're right that he's not broken, but you're understating his abilities a bit.

 

[Starphoenix]

I am not suggesting he have his Warlock Punch removed because of his tier placement, I am suggesting it because I would like to see a move that adequately represents him as a character.

I understand where you are coming from but a projectile does not have to be broken. For instance; it could be a slow moving, weak move that could be reflected when hit which in turn causes the ball to carry more damage and speed. Even Gannondorf could be injured from this attack in such an occasion.

This is simply my idea.

 

[.WC.]

I am not suggesting he have his Warlock Punch removed because of his tier placement, I am suggesting it because I would like to see a move that adequately represents him as a character.

I understand where you are coming from but a projectile does not have to be broken. For instance; it could be a slow moving, weak move that could be reflected when hit which in turn causes the ball to carry more damage and speed. Even Gannondorf could be injured from this attack in such an occasion.

This is simply my idea.

What's a projectile Ganondorf could use that's even relevant to LoZ?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Snake isn't broken. All you have to do is get him in the air and he's ****ed. His recovery is terrible.

which is the purpose of his projectiles, to avoid being in the air.

Dedede throw is incredibly spammish and it's always a good idea to keep throwing when the other guy isn't expecting it. You might get a Gordo.

Snake isn't broken, but he is very good. Suppose it depends on your definition of broken, but w/e. This is SSB4 discussion, not tier list discussion.

Also, Samus, Link, Wolf, and Yoshi (All heavyweights) have at least one projectile.

Like I said, balance really depends on the properties of said projectile. I don't really think it'd be impossible to balance with various factors such as knockback, damage, priority, startlag, speed of projectile, size of projectile, endlag, and chargetime. There's a lot to manage there. If some balance can't be acheived, that's just sad.

I'll settle on the D3 projectile, but I don't consider Samus, Link, Wolf, or Yoshi the same kind of Heavyweight as Bowser, D3, Snake, and Ganon.

I can see the ball possible working, but as before, not without being unuseable, too powerful, or awkward looking.

EDIt: Starpheonix: Creating a slow moving easily reflected projectile would defeat the purpose of giving him one at all >.> That would just give non-profectile characters a new projectile to use on Ganon, while giving those with projectiles fuel for double spamming projectile **** (Samus charge shot + Reflected Ganon shot 0.o)

 

[n88]

@Water Closet

Watch and be amazed (Try skipping to 1:30-ish)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abM-h11H1W8

@Shino

Kill percents for Yoshi, Samus, Link, and Wolf range from 2-5% lower than G-dorf's. It's not that much of a difference.

I think the ball is definitely doable, but I'll settle for a stalemate on this one.

 

[.WC.]

@Water Closet

Watch and be amazed (Try skipping to 1:30-ish)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abM-h11H1W8

Now that kicks ***. And Sakurai couldn't think to use that? >.> Jeez.

which is the purpose of his projectiles, to avoid being in the air.

Don't john about Snake, use Dedede. And his projectiles aren't the best way to keep him grounded. Grabs and tilts.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Link with different arrows and Samus with different beams would be amazingly awesome.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

How the hell am I Johning, I just said why he has projectiles. Pleas Explain

The percents may be similar, but Ganon has way more of these killign moves, including all 4 aerials (one of which able to spike at under 20%)

 

[.WC.]

It just seems like you're complaining about Snake because obviously you have trouble against him in Brawl. So I'm saying, Dedede is a Snake counter. Use him.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

It just seems like you're complaining about Snake because obviously you have trouble against him in Brawl. So I'm saying, Dedede is a Snake counter. Use him.

Alls I said was he was broken but i was forgetting is bulnerability in the air (Which I do realize was an overstatement and I rettract) but the only other thing I said was that He uses projectiles to avoid being in the air. It's a staratedgy he as a character can use to avoid is shortcomings, I don't really care about beating him, I was just noting his atrributes.

 

[.WC.]

All I said was he was broken but i was forgetting is vulnerability in the air (Which I do realize was an overstatement and I retract) but the only other thing I said was that He uses projectiles to avoid being in the air. It's a strategy he as a character can use to avoid is shortcomings, I don't really care about beating him, I was just noting his attributes.

Okay then. You know what's good? Snake's dthrow.

Edit: So back on the real topic of this thread... let's hear opinions on wavedash.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Wavedash should return, It made the game more exciting.

EDIT: I'm also still up for continuing this ganon fight, although I don;t see anyone's mind changing

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Wavedash should return, It made the game more exciting.

I am so sorry but I still don't know what Wavdashing is.........

I was young with Melee and never knew about it or L Canceling.....

I feel noob-ish.............

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I am so sorry but I still don't know what Wavdashing is.........

I was young with Melee and never knew about it or L Canceling.....

I feel noob-ish.............

Wavedashing is when you Air dodge at an angle to the ground so that it eliminates landing lag and converts your air dodge into horizontal movement which can be linked into attacks, shields, or grabs. Almost nessecary for certain characters to for apporach (Like Luigi and Mewtwo, whos Wavedashed are impressivly far) Similarly there is wavelanding, in which you air dodge straghtdown redcuing landling lag, but not converting any of it to movement.

L-Canceling is, I believe, landing in the final or opening animations while pressing a sheild button of an attack elimiating the lag from areial attacks upon landind (I may be wrong here, if someone wants to provide a better answer)

It ha sbeen contreversial because it was not inteded to be on the game, instea dwas an exploit of the engine, many call it a glitch but that is false.

 

[BBQTV]

show a video please

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Wavedashing is when you Air dodge at an angle to the ground so that it eliminates landing lag and converts your air dodge into horizontal movement which can be linked into attacks, shields, or grabs. Almost nessecary for certain characters to for apporach (Like Luigi and Mewtwo, whos Wavedashed are impressivly far) Similarly there is wavelanding, in which you air dodge straghtdown redcuing landling lag, but not converting any of it to movement.

L-Canceling is, I believe, landing in the final or opening animations while pressing a sheild button of an attack elimiating the lag from areial attacks upon landind (I may be wrong here, if someone wants to provide a better answer)

It ha sbeen contreversial because it was not inteded to be on the game, instea dwas an exploit of the engine, many call it a glitch but that is false.

Thanks, and that's not a glitch, Jumping through walls in Stage Builder is a glitch

Hers one for Wavedashing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVHGl4x-XnY

and L Canceling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4XNiCY2Kw

 

[Neo Exdeath]

show a video please

Of Wavedashing? Just search any competitive melee fight.

 

[SKy Angel]

Maybe a silly way to say it, but I dream that even though all the characters can be in brawl of course the new one.

I hope you can be able to create your own characters without hack, but just sort of add more stages like they did in subspace, and battle anywhere that would be worth it to me. ^-^