[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Pieman0920]

I am sorry but this really sounds like "If Ridley cannot be playable, then no other Metroid character will!" which basically is akin to "If I cannot have him/her, then no one else will!"

I was aware that it probably came off like that when writing it, but I couldn't really think of any other way to put it. As it stands, Ridley not only has the fan demand, but also more series importance than any other Metroid character by far. (Bar Samus of course) As KumaOso said right above me, Metroid's cast is so small (due to Samus killing every single supporting character...) that this fact alone is probably why Ridley is the only valid canidate, with the possible exception of Adam, though that's up in the air for right now.

I don't think Zero Suit Samus was added to make up for no playable Ridley. She was added long before Brawl was even announced and most certainly long before there was even a fan demand for Ridley. Ridley and Meta Ridley were likely added as bosses to make up for no playable Ridley. It certainly would explain why Sakurai changed Ridley from an intended Assist Trophy into two bosses. Sakurai knows the Ridley fans want Ridley but he also knows that its very hard to make Ridley a practical and viable Smash fighter due to whatever reasons he might have. Maybe he felt that Ridley is better suited for boss fights than for Smash matches.

I think we all know deep down why ZSS was added...

But anyways, given that Sakurai's statements indicated that Sonic was the only character who was added because of the polls, it is probable that Ridley's double boss status was a responce to his popularity, which was undoubtably high. Still, given that Sakurai has also stated that while difficult, that putting Ridley in is possible, I'd expect him to have very high chances for SSB4, especially as his role in the series will keep on going, as seen in the Other M trailer.

 

[Arcadenik]

Smashchu, Dr. Mario is boring and lame, too. He is just Mario in a doctor's outfit. There's absolutely nothing special about Dr. Mario. If we took out the "Mario" part of Dr. Mario, he would be just a generic doctor with no moves at all. That's why Dr. Mario worked best as a Mario clone.

Zero Suit Samus could not be a clone of Samus despite the fact she is just Samus without the Power Suit for several reasons. She cannot shoot missiles nor charge and shoot beams without the Arm Cannon. She cannot use Morph Ball to drop Bombs nor use the Screw Attack without the Power Suit. She cannot even use the Grappling Beam upgrade without the Power Suit. She had to compensate these shortcomings by relying on her Plasma Gun and her acrobatic abilities.

Dr. Mario does not have that luxury.

N88_2004 and Drag0nscythe, the only reason why Star Fox is overrepped in the first place is because both Falco and Wolf were added as filler clones. Falco was a last-minute addition in Melee but not in Brawl while Wolf is a last-minute addition in Brawl.

Oh, and Fire Emblem does not have more reps than Metroid. They both have two playable characters. The difference is that Fire Emblem have two slots while Metroid have one slot. Mother also does not have more reps than Metroid. It just has one more slot than Metroid does. It seems to me that the real issue here is that people want Ridley or a new Metroid character for the sake of having a second Metroid slot.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I think it ultimately lies whether a character is wanted, and if there are potential characters in each series. MOTHER has a lot of potential characters, but Metroid is very limited due to its small cast.

Bingo. I think an even better example would be Kirby: everyone agrees that no one else should be added because really, there's no one else worth adding (I miss Rick). And this is the 5th best selling playable series in Smash by a decent margin.

But yeah, at this point it's becoming my mission to make people realize that series don't earn "bonus reps" with "sales points" or some other wacky thing. I think I have my work cut out for me:

Oh, and Fire Emblem does not have more reps than Metroid. They both have two playable characters. The difference is that Fire Emblem have two slots while Metroid have one slot. Mother also does not have more reps than Metroid. It just has one more slot than Metroid does. It seems to me that the real issue here is that people want Ridley or a new Metroid character for the sake of having a second Metroid slot.

Now this here, this is gibberish. If I tried to explain this to anyone who doesn't visit SmashBoards, they'd be like "what the hell does this guy mean?" Lucky for me, I already have a post on this from earlier.

Arcadenik, did you ever stop to think people actually (surprise) like Ridley? The dude has to be in the top 3 most wanted characters for the next game (along with Little Mac and Mega Man).

Turns out, only Ridley can satisfy the need for more Ridley. Not stages or Samuses or Malkoviches. Ridley.

 

[Wizzerd]

Except that Paper Mario is boring and lame. Dr. Mario was an iconic and fun game. He appeared because of the idea odd a Dr. Mario costume. There was no indication of Paper Mario being wanted in any form.

Dr. Mario, even on his own, has a lot of personality potential. He could use defibrillators for his forward smash (which is what my friend and I always though), he already shot pills, he could even have Germbuster be his final smash. He could also have his winning and losing poses from the game be in there. I think Dr. Mario definitely has more content in him.

Paper Mario is just Mario but flat. I don't see what is so special about him. Now, I would like to see a stage from the Paper Mario games. That would be fun.

The hammer, the Spring Jump technique, the Super and Ultra Hammer techniques, Star Powers, flipping, the spindash, the Superguard, and all of the partners, which gives us Tattling, kicking a shell, blowing wind, etc.

I'm not saying that Paper Mario has potential to be special and Dr. Mario doesn't, I think they both have the potential for their own movesets. I'm not even saying that they should be in at all. I just think it's unfair to say that Dr. Mario has more content.

That said, I'd be satisfied if there was a Paper Mario stage, I was surprised not to see one in Brawl. The battling stage from PM2, where the audience throws beneficial and harmful things at you, and enemies and bosses from the series occasionally come in, could be fun.

 

[Pieman0920]

I think I've made it pretty clear before that the Mario character with the highest chances (imo) is Paper Mario, and that I don't think Doc will show up again, unless its some type of alt costume deal. That being said, I just don't understand how anyone could think that Dr. Mario has more things to work with than Paper Mario. PM is from a RPG/platformer game, where the character is in action a lot, and over the past three games, has amassed a lot of abilities. DM on the other hand is from a puzzle game where he himself is not very active, and there's not a good deal to actually work with, as apparent by SmashChu havint to come up with a move right there. While I think there is a technical possibility for DM to be added in, and for him to be less clone-like, I just don't see any logic in saying that he has more to work with than Paper Mario.

 

[Starphoenix]

Pet peeve of mine to see an outdated sales list so here's a more recent one.

Also don't use sales as a reason to "add or remove reps/slots/whatever." It doesn't work like that.

I take back what I said about the Yoshi series not being very popular.

@Toise: I also 100% agree with you on characters vs. "reps".

 

[n88]

I'm gonna have to take the characters side w/Toise as well. I think that politics do play a small part, but they're definitely not the basis for adding characters. If everything was done by sales, Mario and Pokemon would take up half the roster.

 

[Starphoenix]

I was thinking, if Paper Mario was to become a playable character. Chances are it would not fall under the main Mario branch, but under the "spin-off" branch.

The mushroom icon would not fit with the Paper Mario series seeing as how the series has made more use of the star symbol. Insignificant it may be, it is a slight issue none the less. The series itself is in fact a distinct spin off, it is not associated with the main canon games. That alone would qualify it for the spin off bracket alongside Yoshi and Wario.

 

[Pieman0920]

Maybe it would get a different symbol, but I really don't think it'd be a star. For one, Kirby's symbol is already a star. For two, Punch Out's technical symbol is a star (at least its used quite a lot in PO!! for the Wii) though it could very well be a boxing glove for Smash. That being said, I can't think of a very good symbol for Paper Mario, though perhaps a outline of Paper Mario himself coulf work.

 

[drag0nscythe]

N88_2004 and Drag0nscythe, the only reason why Star Fox is overrepped in the first place is because both Falco and Wolf were added as filler clones. Falco was a last-minute addition in Melee but not in Brawl while Wolf is a last-minute addition in Brawl.

Oh, and Fire Emblem does not have more reps than Metroid. They both have two playable characters. The difference is that Fire Emblem have two slots while Metroid have one slot. Mother also does not have more reps than Metroid. It just has one more slot than Metroid does. It seems to me that the real issue here is that people want Ridley or a new Metroid character for the sake of having a second Metroid slot.

People want Ridley because they like Ridley. He has constantly placed high in the polls. People just use the "We need another Metroid character" as an excuse to justify their want for him playable.

FE does not need anymore reps. And if if did, Metroid would have to have a rep before it.

---

As far as Paper Mario goes. Like it was said earlier. We do not need to have one pokemon from every Generation, we do not need a lord from every Fire emblem world and we do not need to support all Mario side series.

No to PM.

 

[Pieman0920]

With Dr. Mario cut, we don't have any characters representing the Mario side series though. :V

 

[drag0nscythe]

With Dr. Mario cut, we don't have any characters representing the Mario side series though. :V

We do not need to represent every aspect of the Mario franchise. The side series are just mario games with different gameplay. Mario is there rep.

 

[Starphoenix]

Maybe it would get a different symbol, but I really don't think it'd be a star. For one, Kirby's symbol is already a star. For two, Punch Out's technical symbol is a star (at least its used quite a lot in PO!! for the Wii) though it could very well be a boxing glove for Smash. That being said, I can't think of a very good symbol for Paper Mario, though perhaps a outline of Paper Mario himself coulf work.

Not saying Paper Mario's symbol should be a star, but that technically the star has been used more of as a symbol for the series than a mushroom.

As far as Paper Mario goes. Like it was said earlier. We do not need to have one pokemon from every Generation, we do not need a lord from every Fire emblem world and we do not need to support all Mario side series.

No to PM.

Trying to equate Paper Mario being playable to having every Fire Emblem and Pokémon game represented is a faulty argument. No one has said Paper Mario needs to be a playable character just to have all Mario spin offs represented, people want him because *gasp* people actually like him! Plenty of people love his series and enough of that fanbase would like to see him playable.

We do not need to represent every aspect of the Mario franchise. The side series are just mario games with different gameplay. Mario is there rep.

Wait, was not a similar argument used years ago about how Wind Waker Link should never be in Brawl because he was just Young Link with a different art design? We see how that turned out. Not to mention Dr. Mario already destroys the argument of "multiple Marios", just because he was removed from Brawl does not negate this fact.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Trying to equate Paper Mario being playable to having every Fire Emblem and Pokémon game is a faulty argument. No one has said Paper Mario needs to be a playable character just to have all Mario spin offs represented, people want him because *gasp* people actually like him! Plenty of people love his series and enough of that fanbase would like to see him playable.

That is what I have been saying about Ridley, but it has been tossed aside.
People want Ridley because they like him.

and it is not really faulty logic. The same principal applies.

Wait, was not a similar argument used years ago about how Wind Waker Link would never be in Brawl? We see how that turned out. Not to mention Dr. Mario already destroys the argument of "multiple Marios", just because he was removed from Brawl does not negate this fact.

Then I better not see any more "We do not need to rep every gen in pokemon."

 

[Wizzerd]

We do not need to have one pokemon from every Generation

Aren't you doing exactly that with your second trainer?

Anyway, if Paper Mario had his own series, the symbol could probably be generic letters saying "PM", but it seems more likely that he would be under the Mario mushroom should he get in. Dr. Mario games differentiate themselves from mainstream Mario games about as much if not more than Paper Mario games, and he ended up under the mushroom... that said, Mario games are platformers where you fight Bowser and Yoshi games are platformers where you fight (Baby) Bowser and Yoshi got his own series, so it could happen either way.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I say they put more fire emblem characters like Prince Ephraim, and why not there's three Kirby characters and all of the main Mario ones.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

We need a weapon's triangle thing for FE.

Hector, Marth, and Epraim. That'd be gewd stoof.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

ya but too bad that Hector isn't the Main character he would be BA! as with cool wyverin knights like Cormag.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

There is no need to add a weapons triangle...We are playing smash, not FE.

 

[Fatmanonice]

They should have like super assist trophies that have a freakishly low chance of occuring like Mew with the pokeballs. For example, I really like the idea of an assist trophy where Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector appear and do a combined attack together.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Haha or the basically unknown triangle attacks fromt eh various games, thet'd be pretty **** cool.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

As far as Paper Mario goes. Like it was said earlier. We do not need to have one pokemon from every Generation, we do not need a lord from every Fire emblem world and we do not need to support all Mario side series.

No to PM.

I don't know why you said that PM shouldn't be in, 1. Unique 2. are you gonna say "We don't need to rep all bla bla bla" every time someone comes up from a different part of the series? My reason isn't "Oh, but PM reps RPG Mario, we need him" it's because he's one of my favorite characters and he could be VERY awesome.

Srry if this a little late or past the conversation, just needed to say it.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Sorry if this is a double post but there's no conversation, anybody have an idea for a topic?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

There's two ways to see Paper Mario as a character:

1. Paper Mario and Mario are the same guy.
2. Paper Mario and Mario are separate entities.

People believe one or the other. I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that either is the overwhelming consensus, though if I know the average fan, they see it as the first example. But I can't prove that so let's ignore popular opinion for a minute.


If you believe #1, well, Paper Mario has been in Smash for three games in a row. You probably don't understand why people here are supporting "Paper" (or to a lesser extent, "Dr.") when we've already got the key element of "Mario."

If you believe #2, then you need to see if the Great Gonzales has a big enough fan base of his own to stand out. And does he?

Well, as I said, I can't measure Paper Mario's individual popularity because there's a good chunk of people who think he's already playable. If you try measuring said popularity by sales, then no, not really. Paper Mario games (and all of the RPGs and non-Kart/Dr. spinoffs) hover around the 1-3 million mark. The main platformers average around 10-20 million for 2D and 5-15 for 3D. But we already know sales aren't a big deal so meh.

I guess you could compare it to prominence in the overall series, but there's 3 Paper Marios to well over 100 regular Marios. It's not like Zelda where there's a couple Big Link games and a dozen Little Links. And even then people like Big Link better.


So... yeah. If I had to place money on it, I'd say no. I mean, things could change, but at the moment, I really doubt it.

And if Paper Mario gets in, he'll have the Mushroom. Even if it's a different flavor of Mario, it's still a Mario game.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Hmm, what to discuss...I havent seen too much on Stages in a while, so what does everyone think for new stages?

More focus on Tounrey friendly stages?

or

The crazy hectic chaos of Wario Ware like stages?

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I can see how would think they are the same person but I can't see how people think they would play the same, it's just wrong to think that PM could be a clone of Mario.

As for stages I vote if PM gets in Glitz Pit stage...

and others like Delfino style Tellius stage for FE (Ike possibly Micaiah)

 

[BBQTV]

i think paper mario should be different than mario

 

[Paper Mario Master]

i think paper mario should be different than mario

Yes you are right.

Now what stages? I'd like one for each major character, like Mario Luigi Peach Bowser "get" one

 

[BBQTV]

well luigis would be the mansion maybe a better one but the other characters dont really have any place

 

[Paper Mario Master]

well luigis would be the mansion maybe a better one but the other characters dont really have any place

That's why there were quotes around get, because they don't really "have" a stage, there would be 4-6, 7 if you count PM's stage w/ the other Marios. 4 somewhat character specific ones 2 neutral stages, i.e. Mario Kart, Mario Sports, and PM's stage

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I think it's possible to give every character a stage, if it has the potential...Bowser and Peach have respective castles and Luigi's got the mansion.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I think it's possible to give every character a stage, if it has the potential...Bowser and Peach have respective castles and Luigi's got the mansion.

Here's my line up for the Mario stages,

Rainbow Road or Coconut Mall
Mario Sports (like Castle Siege, takes to all the sport fields, Strikers, Golf, Tennis, and Baseball)
Corona Mountain
Peach's Castle that switches after a while to Shroob's Castle and back again
Airship Armada (SMG)
Mushroomy Kingdom 2-2 & 2-4

and...Glitz Pit for PM if he's grouped w/ them

 

[BrawLBlazer]

Here's my line up for the Mario stages,

Rainbow Road or Coconut Mall
Mario Sports (like Castle Siege, takes to all the sport fields, Strikers, Golf, Tennis, and Baseball)
Corona Mountain
Peach's Castle that switches after a while to Shroob's Castle and back again
Airship Armada (SMG)
Mushroomy Kingdom 2-2 & 2-4

and...Glitz Pit for PM if he's grouped w/ them

Rainbow Road in SSB4 will be awesome. I wonder if they'll add an affect with karts like Brawl's current Mario Kart stage.
I doubt they'll add more than two new third-party characters, on another note.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Or any new third party if were lucky...

You seem to like the changing stages.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Or any new third party if were lucky...

You seem to like the changing stages.

We might get a couple or one more Sonic character since Nintendo and SEGA are friends now...

and changing stages are cool except for stuff that's total crap. I'm lookin at you 75m and you're stupid springs.

 

[john!]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6363179

^ Relevant.

 

[BBQTV]

well i want fountain of dreams back did any one like peaches castle in melee? carona mountain might work

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

We might get a couple or one more Sonic character since Nintendo and SEGA are friends now...

and changing stages are cool except for stuff that's total crap. I'm lookin at you 75m and you're stupid springs.

I would go crazy if we got more Sonic reps. CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZY!!

If any Sonic characters make the cut for Smash 4, then I hope they become among the worst fighters in the game.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6363179

^ Relevant.

I LIKEY until I got to the Specials....

B: Ultra Hammer
B<>: Bomb or Shell toss
B^: Parakarry Lift
Bv: Bomb or shell toss (I can't remember which one was Bv and which was B<> )

FS: Super Nova

and Fountain of Dreams for the win!

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Who here thinks that if Glass Joe makes the Smash 4 cut, he would be top-tier?