[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[BBQTV]

who thinks if kingdom hearts mickey is in this game would he be top tier

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Who thinks Smash 4 should go without third-party characters?

 

[BBQTV]

not me.....

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

not me.....

Don't get me wrong; I don't hate EVERY thirdy-party character: For example, I like Banjo-Kazooie, but I know they are barely likely to be in Smash 4's playable roster. I can tolerate Megaman, Metal Slug, and Castlevania, but there are some third-party franchises that I hate.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Who thinks SSB4 will have better everything than SSBB?

Who thinks that there will be Black Mage in SSB4?

 

[BBQTV]

Don't get me wrong; I don't hate EVERY thirdy-party character: For example, I like Banjo-Kazooie, but I know they are barely likely to be in Smash 4's playable roster. I can tolerate Megaman, Metal Slug, and Castlevania, but there are some third-party franchises that I hate.

of course theirs nothing wrong with that [you dont like ff i see] i like those games but i can understand why someone can hate them megaman in brawl someone make this happen

 

[SmashChu]

Maybe it would get a different symbol, but I really don't think it'd be a star. For one, Kirby's symbol is already a star. For two, Punch Out's technical symbol is a star (at least its used quite a lot in PO!! for the Wii) though it could very well be a boxing glove for Smash. That being said, I can't think of a very good symbol for Paper Mario, though perhaps a outline of Paper Mario himself coulf work.

Your missing the idea. Your only thinking as "Ohh, we can give him more moves," but by knowing what moves people tend to give characters, it will be to wacky and end up being lame.

Dr. Mario has a lot more to take from then people give him credit for. I always saw him coming out of a pipe with a clipboard (like a patients chart) saying "Let's begin." He could also have germbuster as a final smash where he tries to line up pill on the other players. Plus, he's got the pills man. Most people think he was dumb in Melee, but you'll be surprised; he has a lot of fans.

I just don't see Paper Mario being fun. It would be interesting to some people here, but most of us will just see it as flat Mario. Paper isn't that interesting.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I want Goemon to be playable.
I can tolerate him all day.

If he was playable, we would also get kickass music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNs-VE-T59g

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

For Smash 4 music, I would love to see the Radiant Dawn song that played on the Black Knight and Goldoa Levels of the Endgame of Part IV on Radiant Dawn.

 

[NukSuCao]

Remove Nintendog. Remove tripping. Make Meta-Knight not villainously easy to use. Fix Snake. Add more characters, and make the gameplay faster like Melee.

That's about it.

One specific is that I want Chrono. A lot.

 

[BBQTV]

i think snake fits in super smash like i know he's 3rd party but i hope he stays in smash

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I have an idea for PT Red's new FS: first he sends out all three of his Pokemon, then Charizard flies off-screen, while it's out of range, Ivysaur will grab the nearest opponent with its vines and strangles them for a few seconds, increasing damage, and Squirtle will go into the background and use Surf that will harm opponents that get soaked, and afterwards, Charizard will appear in the foreground and use Fireblasts, making it similar to Snake's FS, but it has only three shots, and when a Pokemon has finished its task, it will return to its Pokeball unless it was the one out fighting at the time the FS was used.

Any opinions?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I like the triple finish, personally.

i want the baloon fighter as a character (Since were all either throwing out random characters or arguing about Paper Mario, a topic in which I am indifferent)

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Your missing the idea. Your only thinking as "Ohh, we can give him more moves," but by knowing what moves people tend to give characters, it will be to wacky and end up being lame.

Dr. Mario has a lot more to take from then people give him credit for. I always saw him coming out of a pipe with a clipboard (like a patients chart) saying "Let's begin." He could also have germbuster as a final smash where he tries to line up pill on the other players. Plus, he's got the pills man. Most people think he was dumb in Melee, but you'll be surprised; he has a lot of fans.

I just don't see Paper Mario being fun. It would be interesting to some people here, but most of us will just see it as flat Mario. Paper isn't that interesting.

Yes, Mario in a doctor's suit throwing pills, what isn't interesting and exciting about that???

Honestly play a PM game (not Super PM preferably N64) and then say PM isn't interesting and is just a flat Mario, gosh dude the classics, how can you not see it.

The only person that can't get it either doesn't have enough time to think about it or are ignorant.



As for the FE music Jumpman, Nice Choice!

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Alright, I'm gonna jump in here now. On this I agree with SmashChu. IF I had to choose between PM or Doc, I would choose Doc. I have played the Paper Mario games, and I just didn't like them. Docter Mario's game was fun, if lacking in substance

 

[Clownbot]

Paper Mario has a wider range of potential, and he comes from a larger branch of the Mario games that, dare I say, is more popular than Dr. Mario (no hardcore statistics here, but I'm guessing that the three PM games sold better than Dr. Mario's sales on the GB and NES as well as that forgettable 64 game altogether. Please correct me if I'm mistaken).

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Paper Mario has a wider range of potential, and he comes from a larger branch of the Mario games that, dare I say, is more popular than Dr. Mario (no hardcore statistics here, but I'm guessing that the three PM games sold better than Dr. Mario's sales on the GB and NES as well as that forgettable 64 game altogether. Please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Ask and you shall receive.

Dr. Mario (NES) --- 4.85 million
Dr. Mario (GB) ---- 5.34 million

Paper Mario ------- 1.38 million
Paper Mario TTYD -- 2.05 million
Super Paper Mario - 2.80 million

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I can list a full moveset for PM if any of you don't think he can as good as Doc, even tough he's not as good, he's better

Those sales can't be right! PM games are soooooo much better! trust me I have a Doc and all PMs

well except SPM it was no sequel in my book to such game as PM N64 and even PM TTYD (not saying I don't have it, just saying It's the only one that deserves low sales.)

 

[SmashChu]

Yes, Mario in a doctor's suit throwing pills, what isn't interesting and exciting about that???

Honestly play a PM game (not Super PM preferably N64) and then say PM isn't interesting and is just a flat Mario, gosh dude the classics, how can you not see it.

The only person that can't get it either doesn't have enough time to think about it or are ignorant.

Did I say the game wasn't interesting? No. Your just throwing words in my mouth. Read before posting.
The character isn;t interesting. I don't see how paper can turn into an interesting character mechanic. "OOOHHHHH he's flat." So is Game and Watch and he's more interesting anyway. "OOOHHHHHH, look at his fun moveset." Anyone can make a moveset. It's easy. Doesn't mean it will be fun. I think Dr. Mario sounds like a better addition. He has more content.

Read
Here
and Here

This will make more sense. Basically, the doctor motif is more fun then Paper Mario. Because it's just flat Mario.

 

[Clownbot]

Oh, wow, that was not what I expected, Toise.

I don't hit the books when I look for information, I just state things blindly and wait for someone to verify/correct me.

Okay, perhaps Doctor Mario is greater in sales, but Paper Mario is a lot more fleshed out (no pun intended) than Dr. Mario. His games have an actual story, and he's probably just as (if not more) requested than DM.

EDIT: I'm not convinced, SmashChu. You say that PM isn't fun because he's just a flat Mario, but Dr. is just Mario in a doctor's outfit, and his games show him to have less substance than Paper Mario.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Oh, wow, that was not what I expected, Toise.

I don't hit the books when I look for information, I just state things blindly and wait for someone to verify/correct me.

Okay, perhaps Doctor Mario is greater in sales, but Paper Mario is a lot more fleshed out (no pun intended) than Dr. Mario. His games have an actual story, and he's probably just as (if not more) requested than DM.

He's my most wanted character, even over any FE or LOZ character. He has great move potential w/ all his partners from all 3 games.

Let SmashChu do what he wants he can go count ceiling tiles for all I car saying that Dr. Mario, not only the games but the characters too, is more interesting than one of the best games for the N64 that actually had a story line unlike Doc.

Those tiles would probably be more interesting to him than PM.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Did I say the game wasn't interesting? No. Your just throwing words in my mouth. Read before posting.
The character isn;t interesting. I don't see how paper can turn into an interesting character mechanic. "OOOHHHHH he's flat." So is Game and Watch and he's more interesting anyway. "OOOHHHHHH, look at his fun moveset." Anyone can make a moveset. It's easy. Doesn't mean it will be fun. I think Dr. Mario sounds like a better addition. He has more content.

Read
Here
and Here

This will make more sense. Basically, the doctor motif is more fun then Paper Mario. Because it's just flat Mario.

Thanks, I enjoyed reading that, and this just further makes me want to see Doc over PM.

I think havign a character with little canon movepool adds to the creation of balanced movesets.

Instead of seeing it as "Oh man look at all the things he can do because of his games" We should look at it as "Think of all the things he could've done IF he had more games"

I feel the "movepool" arguement is actually counter productive, they provide barriers and walls to an imaginitive wonderland of potential based on a concept....sorry if that was chatoically written...

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Oh, wow, that was not what I expected, Toise.

I don't hit the books when I look for information, I just state things blindly and wait for someone to verify/correct me.

Okay, perhaps Doctor Mario is greater in sales, but Paper Mario is a lot more fleshed out (no pun intended) than Dr. Mario. His games have an actual story, and he's probably just as (if not more) requested than DM.

EDIT: I'm not convinced, SmashChu. You say that PM isn't fun because he's just a flat Mario, but Dr. is just Mario in a doctor's outfit, and his games show him to have less substance than Paper Mario.

That's what I'm here for.


The idea behind Dr. Mario being more "unique" than Paper Mario is the fact that he's got the whole medical thing going for him. Paper Mario is still about a plumber going to strange lands and fighting monsters, not much different from the main platformers. Dr. Mario is supposed to give you the image of being in a hospital, saving sick people, curing cancer, etc.

Although I'm sure most of you are disregarding the fact that both are the same guy and that this isn't quite as analogous as Link and Toon Link.

 

[Big-Cat]

Those sales can't be right! PM games are soooooo much better! trust me I have a Doc and all PMs

The MOTHER fans will tell you right off the bat that a good game isn't guaranteed good sales, and Paper Mario is no exception.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Did I say the game wasn't interesting? No. Your just throwing words in my mouth. Read before posting.
The character isn;t interesting. I don't see how paper can turn into an interesting character mechanic. "OOOHHHHH he's flat." So is Game and Watch and he's more interesting anyway. "OOOHHHHHH, look at his fun moveset." Anyone can make a moveset. It's easy. Doesn't mean it will be fun. I think Dr. Mario sounds like a better addition. He has more content.

Read
Here
and Here

This will make more sense. Basically, the doctor motif is more fun then Paper Mario. Because it's just flat Mario.

What I meant was play the game and you'll find that PM would be interesting, I never said anything about you saying the game wasn't interesting.

And I can see that there's no opening you're eyes to PM so you can be happy w/ your Melee reject.

Read this for stuff on the Forbidden 7 includes Doc Roy and Mewtwo. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=44183599 Doc had a chance but didn't get in if you read all of it.

 

[BBQTV]

i think if doc is not in he should be a costume

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I read it, but that doesn't really mean anything except that Sakuarai likes Doc and would try to get him into the fourth installment...and you can't state Sknakey's opinion as fact. That was personal speculation on his part, not Sakurai's own words.

 

[Pieman0920]

While I'd much rather have Paper Mario than Dr. Mario in the next game, I will say one thing on Dr. Mario's behalf, and that is that he actually has had his own story before. In the N64 game his medicine was stolen by a mad scientist (who was in fact a common enemy from Wario Land 3) and Doc chased him across what I can only assume is the Mushroom Kingdom. Eventually, it turns out that the mad scientist was working for Rudy the Clown, aka the final boss of WL3, at which point you "fight" him. Incidently, Wario was also in it, and Dr. Mario could power up into Metal Dr. Mario. I guess in the end, it wasn't all too medical...

In any case, while Paper Mario does go about the same business as regular Mario normally does (though against non-Bowser enemies it seems) there is a "paper" aspect to him that does give him some unique abilities to work with, such as folding into things like airplanes, folding to the side, as well as the partners he has.

Also sorry about my delay to responding to your post Toise. I've been busy. I'll try to get to it tonight, but if I can't, I think its for the best to just end it there, seeing as we're off the subject of Fire Emblem.

 

[SmashChu]

In any case, while Paper Mario does go about the same business as regular Mario normally does (though against non-Bowser enemies it seems) there is a "paper" aspect to him that does give him some unique abilities to work with, such as folding into things like airplanes, folding to the side, as well as the partners he has.

But your still looking at the fact you can make "cool moves" for him. You can do this for every character. It doesn't make him interesting. He's still just lame flat Mario.

This is the same thing with Roy. You're upset because Roy would still be similar to Marth. But Roy has his own personality and flair added to the mix. Dr. Mario is a doctor so he leads himself to different moves and a different personality. He could add a smart side to Mario. Paper Mario adds nothing new in terms of his personality. His content is the same as Mario's. Dr. Mario us different, even in how he moved. His winning poses were awesome too.

 

[flyinfilipino]

So you could "make up" a new personality and moves for Dr. Mario. I'm not really understanding your logic.

 

[n88]

But your still looking at the fact you can make "cool moves" for him. You can do this for every character. It doesn't make him interesting. He's still just lame flat Mario.

This is the same thing with Roy. You're upset because Roy would still be similar to Marth. But Roy has his own personality and flair added to the mix. Dr. Mario is a doctor so he leads himself to different moves and a different personality. He could add a smart side to Mario. Paper Mario adds nothing new in terms of his personality. His content is the same as Mario's. Dr. Mario us different, even in how he moved. His winning poses were awesome too.

So? Dr. Mario was one of my mains, but he's not really any better than Paper Mario (Creativity wise). He's just lame, doctor suit Mario. I'm not going to get into a massive argument about this because I doubt I'll change your mind. I think Dr. Mario is more likely than PM, but it has nothing to do with a made-up personality and moveset potentiial.

As is, the Mario series is very contested right now. I would expect something like this for SSB4:

Mario
Luig
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Dr. Mario

Although I would like to see Rosalina in there, it seems unlikely.

Bowser Jr. seems likely because he is the most significant Mario character not in Smash, and he has pretty good popularity. He may or may not appear w/a Shadow Mario transformation.

Dr. Mario is a good filler clone, and could be a little more differentiated from Mario than before, as he probably won't have FLUDD. I doubt Dr. mario would be a costume for Mario. Why? Because Sakurai sees them as separate. Dr. Mario was his own character in Melee because Sakurai thought it would be odd for the doctor to use fireballs. The addition of FLUDD to Mario would further separate them. Also, Dr. Mario does have a good chunk of support, and his series is alive and kicking on WiiWare.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Who says he has to be a clone? Lugi, in essence is the same as MArio (save for his mansion spin-off...which he takes no inspiration from at all) and yet he is considered completely fine by most of the smahs community, so why can't this be done for Doc?

I'm just not understanding why everyone assumes if Doc comes back, it has to be as clone

 

[n88]

I don't think he has to be a clone, but Sakurai has a history of not decloning people. Also, Dr. Mario makes a perfectly logical clone. He might get a few different specials, but in essence, it's stil Mario.

Luigi is more differentiated from Mario in his character than his games.

 

[bleyva]

why dont they just combine mario and dr. mario into a zelda/shiek combo?

pretty much solves eveything, and makes for an interesting option: make mario the damage-racker, make dr. mario the finisher.

 

[Pieman0920]

But your still looking at the fact you can make "cool moves" for him. You can do this for every character. It doesn't make him interesting. He's still just lame flat Mario.

Your logic here really doesn't make sense to me. Aren't you trying to do that with Dr. Mario as well? The major difference though is that Paper Mario's moves would actually be from games, while some of the made of Doctor themed moves you gave Mario are not. And all the "lame flat Mario" comments are quite odd, since you really come off in a manner that make it seem like you're stating them as fact. Quite frankly, I could say that Dr. Mario isn't interesting either, and that he's a lame doctor version of Mario, who shouldn't be fighting anyways, since he's a doctor. Of course, I don't really see it that way, but it would be quite annoying if I kept on adding that to the end of my posts, every time I post, no?

This is the same thing with Roy. You're upset because Roy would still be similar to Marth. But Roy has his own personality and flair added to the mix. Dr. Mario is a doctor so he leads himself to different moves and a different personality. He could add a smart side to Mario. Paper Mario adds nothing new in terms of his personality. His content is the same as Mario's. Dr. Mario us different, even in how he moved. His winning poses were awesome too.

There's a huge problem with your analogy here in the fact that Marth and Roy are different characters, while Mario and Doc are the exact same. Paper Mario leads himself to having different moves, and since he's from a RPG series, I'd think it would be just as valid to say that he could represent the smart side of Mario, since there's a need for strategy. He uses, hammers, badges, items, his paper body, and partners, which are all things that his normal incarnation in Smash doesn't use. Really, if you're saying that the Paper Mario game's content is the same as the regular Mario games, then I really have to question if you've actually played them. (Though if you've only played SPM, then there's an excuse)

 

[SmashChu]

Your logic here really doesn't make sense to me. Aren't you trying to do that with Dr. Mario as well? The major difference though is that Paper Mario's moves would actually be from games, while some of the made of Doctor themed moves you gave Mario are not. And all the "lame flat Mario" comments are quite odd, since you really come off in a manner that make it seem like you're stating them as fact. Quite frankly, I could say that Dr. Mario isn't interesting either, and that he's a lame doctor version of Mario, who shouldn't be fighting anyways, since he's a doctor. Of course, I don't really see it that way, but it would be quite annoying if I kept on adding that to the end of my posts, every time I post, no?

Ummm, need I remind you that Paper Mario would be Mario. Sakurai does not just give odd moves because he can. If the characters are similar enough, then he'll give them similar moves (namely specials). What you said about Paper Mario is what people said about Toon Link.

Every time I hear people disagree with me, it's is because they could give Paper Mario "better moves." First off, I have seen people's movesets and they are pretty uninteresting. Creative movesets are easy to make, but it doesn't mean the character will be more or less fun to play as.

What you miss is the whole article I posted on content. Other people read it, but you didn't. One problem in the last argument is you ignored statements that destroyed your argument and continued on as it they were never said. I had to post something twice, but you never read it (note: I would have posted it a third time, but I never got around to it). Content is what is going on in the player's head. Content is the value and experience the customer gets. No where in the games is Paper Mario different then Mario besides "Ohh he's made of paper," in which you then realize "The whole game is made of paper." This is what gave the games some uniqueness. This, however, won't translate into the mind of the player. It's Mario, but he's made out of paper. Dr. Mario. You see Mario as a different person (or entity) then Mario. He's not just Mario anymore, but now he's a doctor who saves lives. He could also use things that make him more doctor like like a clipboard, defibrillators and his signature megavitamins. He would feel like a different character.

People have a problem of realizing that characters are made by more then what moves they do. People think Lucario and Mewtwo are one in the same because two of his attacks are the same (and two smash attacks are similar). They neglect the fact that Lucario doesn't even feel the same. He moves more like a martial artist. Mewtwo moves like a Psychic villain. Everything about them feels different. This is why people don't compare Ike and Roy even though some people here would. Ike is strong, silent and serious. Roy is energetic and fiery. They have the same concept, but they are different in the player's mind.

Also, the only reason I every get to why Paper Mario is better is because you can give him moves from the game. Someone actually give me a reason why I should be excited for Paper Mario besides his "unique" moves.

There's a huge problem with your analogy here in the fact that Marth and Roy are different characters, while Mario and Doc are the exact same. Paper Mario leads himself to having different moves, and since he's from a RPG series, I'd think it would be just as valid to say that he could represent the smart side of Mario, since there's a need for strategy. He uses, hammers, badges, items, his paper body, and partners, which are all things that his normal incarnation in Smash doesn't use. Really, if you're saying that the Paper Mario game's content is the same as the regular Mario games, then I really have to question if you've actually played them. (Though if you've only played SPM, then there's an excuse)

Everything in bold is what is wrong with your post

First off, you missed the point of Marth and Roy. You are talking about how they are not the same person. Give me a break. The few pages back, you are arguing a losing battle because you say Roy as no different then Marth. Dr. Mario has more of a personality then Paper Mario as Paper Mario was always Mario. He wasn't even remotely different. At least Dr. Mario was Mario using mega vitamins to stop viruses. Second you go one about moves again. Give it a rest. Third, NO, being from an RPG does not make him seem smart as he seemed like, I don't know, MARIO? Everything he did in Paper Mario (besides anything that wasn't specially paper related) was what Mario would normally do. He feels like Mario. Dr. Mario doesn't feel like Mario. CONTENT I makes the character feel different. Paper Mario is paper and that is what people will consider him. Dr. Mario is a doctor and people will see him as a doctor. Since Mario is a common plumber, they will see Dr. Mario differently because of his new role.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

...I wish i could post decent arguments...

Anyway, I'm gonna throw in the fact that Marth, Roy, and Ike had very little to work with from thier games (Two or three animations plus Aether for Ike) but they wee given a complete moveset, so the same coudl be done with a radical Doc...

 

[smashkng]

Include King K. Rool of Donkey Kong series, and we have new superheavyweight character.

 

[Pieman0920]

While its true that Paper Mario could have a few moes that reular Mario would have, I really don't think there would be that many. Why? Because PM's model would need to have a complete overhaul in order to exist. Now of course that being said, we'd have to think that Sakurai wouldn't be lazy, and not go for the clone route, which is something that may or may not happen. (I don't think there's any real solid argument for or against Sakurai's laziness, as he will certainly be lazy with some characters, but in other instances he won't.)

Also what you say is content, isn't content. Its more experience, though you use that word to define it. Still, if you're going by the user's reaction towards the game, then you're trying to prove something you can't prove, since you're just one person. Perhaps you view Dr. Mario as almost a entirely different person, and Paper Mario as just a paper version of Mario, but that's just what you feel. You can't speak for the entire fanbase's perceptions of something like that, especially if you have no real evidence outside of your own opinions.

Thus I have to ask you what the appeal of Dr. Mario is other than having "doctor" moves, and the fact that he'd still almost certainly be a clone.

Roy isn't really different personality wise than Marth (Though I admitted that the Smash series actually made up a false personality for Marth) but he's still a different person. Dr. Mario IS Mario though, so there really can't be a different personality. Really now, have you played Dr Mario for the N64? Its the exact same as he always is, though now he's a doctor. At least Paper Mario can fold into different objects and use partners. And there you go around using the word content wrong again, instead meaning something that doesn't make sense given that you're trying to apply it to all people's experiences, when its just your own. Dr. Mario is Mario and people will see him as a Mario despite the personality that you're making up for him in your head.

 

[Old Amber]

Quick question, what are the Pokémon that will most likely be in SSB4, and does Umbreon have any chance of being in it? I absolutely love Umbreon. . . although it'd be really hard to make a good set of attacks for him.