[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Jerome]

I can tolerate Toon Link and Tingle.

We don't need anymore Mother characters unless we cut Lucas and/or Ness.

Though part of me wants Krystal in Smash 4, Falco is one of my mains.

I think we should keep Red without putting in Gold, even though they look so similar.

Well thers a big chance the FE series will have 3 characters representing them so I think they will add another Mother Character.
Like Ninten, Ana, a Mother 4 Character

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

@MtJ: Replacing? Zero. As far as I can tell, FE prospects are this:

Marth, Ike
Marth, Ike, Roy
Marth, Ike, New Guy

Although some people think Ike might go, there's pretty much no reason to suggest this other than "Roy left, Ike will too."


holy crap this thread moves fast

The chances for Roy cutting Marth or Ike are 1%, since it's still possible.

 

[n88]

No. The reason they will cut is because they are guest. The game will probably be only Nintendo characters next.

Are you kidding? Snake and Sonic sell Smash. I know guys who only bought Brawl because they saw Snake on the back of the box. It would be a mistake to let them get away.

 

[sammy p]

what if they did like an honerable mentions feature?? i think itd be just kinda like a filler for the game but what theyd do is give mabey about 10(or more characters) that Nintendo was THINKING about putting in SSB4 and give a lot of info about them, why they were thinking of using them, if theyll be in future games, why they were decided against, a biography of they character ect.
theyed do somewhat along the lines of the same thing for stages, and items, and music and you would have a treasure trove of info!
what do you guys think of that? like i said its just a filler and would have no real point but itd just give you kind of what nintendo was thinking for the game and nintendos opinion on things

 

[Starphoenix]

No. The reason they will cut is because they are guest. The game will probably be only Nintendo characters next.

The only way they will leave is if Konami or Sega says they will. Snake has a better chance of leaving than Sonic, believe me, Sega can't afford to not put him in again seeing as how his games are garbage now.

Megaman shoud be in, if for no other reason than his history with Nintendo. He would be a fantastic choice.

 

[Jerome]

Possible Nerfs and Buffs

Ok, everyone knows there will be characters that will be buffed or nerfed heres what I think.

Mario (Buffed)
Luigi (Nerfed)
Peach (Buffed)
Bowser (Nerfed)
Link (Buffed)
Zelda (Buffed)
Sheik (Buffed)
Ganondorf (Buffed)
Toon Link (Buffed)
Donkey Kong (Nerfed)
Diddy Kong (Buffed)
Samus (Buffed)
Zero Suit Samus (Nerfed)
Yoshi (Buffed)
Kirby (Nerfed)
Meta Knight (Nerfed)
King Dedede (Buffed)
Fox (Buffed)
Falco (Nerfed)
Wolf (Buffed)
Pikachu (Nerfed)
Chaizard (Buffed)
Ivysaur (Buffed)
Squirtle (Buffed)
Lucario (Nerfed)
Jigglypuff (Buffed)
Ice Climbers (Nerfed)
Pit (Buffed)
R.O.B. (Buffed)
Olimar (Nerfed)
Wario (Nerfed)
Captain Falcon (Buffed)
Mr. Game & Watch (Buffed)
Ness (Buffed)
Lucas (Nerfed)
Marth (Nerfed)
Ike (Buffed)
Snake (Nerfed)
Sonic (Buffed)

Again, this is just what I think so....

 

[Wizzerd]

Ice Climbers (Nerfed)

Maybe this is bias talking but I don't think the Ice Climbers need a nerf. The reason they're so high on the tier list is their chaingrab, which is so hard to use consistently that it makes up for it, and they're pretty meh without it. The only change they need is to show Nana's damage percentage.

EDIT: And like n88 said, you're buffing too many high tiers and nerfing too many low tiers.

 

[n88]

Uhh, generally aren't low-tiers buffed and high-tiers nerfed?

And why do GaW and ROB need buffs?

EDIT: Also, Dedede, Wolf, and Pit are fine w/o buffs. D3 needs a good nerfing at the moment.

Bowser, Luigi, and Lucas don't need nerfs.


Anyway, what do people think about putting up some stats for characters on the CSS? This was brought up earlier and I liked the idea. For example: You'd hover over DK, and a small box displaying various stats would show up, looking something like this (Stats below aren't entirely accurate):

Weight: 10/10
Power: 9/10
Jumps: 5/10
Reach: 6/10

and so on and so forth.

 

[Jerome]

Uhh, generally aren't low-tiers buffed and high-tiers nerfed?

And why do GaW and ROB need buffs?

EDIT: Also, dede, Wolf, and Pit are fine w/o buffs. D3 needs a good nerfing as is.

Well Marth was high tier in Melee and Brawl so they don't always nerf high tiers.

Yeah your right about Dedede I should of said nerfed.

 

[n88]

Well Marth was high tier in Melee and Brawl so they don't always nerf high tiers.

Well, I think I heard somewhere that when making Brawl, Sakurai and co. didn't have access to Melee data, which might have something to do with that, as well as why Brawl didn't have as many characters as people expected. (I have no source for this, so it could be completely wrong)

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Megaman shoud be in, if for no other reason than his history with Nintendo. He would be a fantastic choice.

I think that Ryu Hayabusa and Bomberman would also be some good choices, due to the impact they had on Nintendo's history.

Well, that, and a true Wario Vs. Bomberman fight for the latter (gratuitous Wario Blast reference ahoy).

 

[The Graceful Assassin]

My wishes:

Add Shadow
Add Roy and Mewtwo back in
Add Megaman and Zero (lolyeah)
Add more stages.

That's about it.

 

[Hero.]

My wishes:

Add Shadow
Add Roy and Mewtwo back in
Add Megaman and Zero (lolyeah)
Add more stages.

That's about it.

Add more neutral stages I would rather see Tails or Knuckles than Shadow, Megaman needs to be in. I'm not really concerned with zero but Roy and mewtwo need to be back in.

 

[Lovely]

Man, I haven't posted here in a while, are the same people posting here that I know? I don't recognize most of the new posters here. Oh well, I guess they got tired of posting about the new Smash Bros. I wouldn't mind seeing more new Nintendo game series in the new Smash, I really hope that Oboromuramasa is Nintendo only, that would spark my idea. ;D

 

[n88]

You probably won't recognize a lot of the frequent posters here. Except maybe KumaOso. He's been posting in here since Day Two.

I'm really hoping Nintendo gets the rights to Muramasa as well, but it's improbable.

 

[Big-Cat]

You probably won't recognize a lot of the frequent posters here. Except maybe KumaOso. He's been posting in here since Day Two.

I'm really hoping Nintendo gets the rights to Muramasa as well, but it's improbable.

I may not be posting here so often because my individual views on what should be in the next game often receives backlash.

 

[Clownbot]

I think that Ryu Hayabusa and Bomberman would also be some good choices, due to the impact they had on Nintendo's history.

I think that Ryu Hayabusa and Bomberman would also be some good choices

I think that Ryu Hayabusa

Ryu Hayabusa

I love you.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I love you.

Er, thanks? You are saying this in an "I admire you" kind of way, right?

Also, I do agree that Megaman should be in (although I already said so already). His recent game that's been released on the VC should increase the classic one's chances of showing up, as he's the one version that made the greatest impression on the Nintendo crowd.

 

[n88]

I may not be posting here so often because my individual views on what should be in the next game often receives backlash.

Don't everyone's?

Anyway, what do people think of the stats idea I had a page or two ago?

Anyway, what do people think about putting up some stats for characters on the CSS? This was brought up earlier and I liked the idea. For example: You'd hover over DK, and a small box displaying various stats would show up, looking something like this (Stats below aren't entirely accurate):

Weight: 10/10
Power: 9/10
Jumps: 5/10
Reach: 6/10

and so on and so forth.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think that's a great idea. It would keep those who write player's guides from having to hazardly guess stats (*cough*Prima*cough*).

 

[Wizzerd]

Anyway, what do people think of the stats idea I had a page or two ago?

Sounds interesting, and not that difficult to implement. It also make the development team more motivated to balance (since if a character has everything, it would be immediately obvious).

 

[Big-Cat]

Don't everyone's?

It depends on who's in the thread at the time. Whenever I say I'd like to see competitive elements incorporated and things like a super meter, it tends to bring up controversy that's in a loop. The same goes for suggesting characters like Krystal.

 

[The Graceful Assassin]

Maybe Sora and Riku from Kingdom Hearts? I know it's not exactly needed, but...

It'd still be nice to have them.

 

[Big-Cat]

Maybe Sora and Riku from Kingdom Hearts? I know it's not exactly needed, but...

It'd still be nice to have them.

The problem with getting them in is that I believe they're co-owned by SE and Disney. Aside from that, I don't think SE would push them for character in SSB4.

 

[drag0nscythe]

It depends on who's in the thread at the time. Whenever I say I'd like to see competitive elements incorporated and things like a super meter, it tends to bring up controversy that's in a loop. The same goes for suggesting characters like Krystal.

I like the idea of a super meter. It could build as the game goes on, not being affected by deaths. Once it is full, the characters could pull of a super move.

Another system that would be nice is a boost system. When a players damage reaches above a limit (that people should be able to set), they gain slightly stronger stats and speed.

Smash ball could be the instant fill er up thing. That way people can still have FS in normal play.

As for Krystal, I like her as a character, but do not see her as playable. An AT would be perfect.

 

[Zario777]

What I want 2 know is why ppl want to keep the Starfox series at 3 characters max? They have always gotten a new character every SSB (Nothing→SSB=Fox, SSB→SSBM=Falco, SSBM→SSBB=Wolf) I dont see why they cant continue that (SSBB→SSB4=Krystal [or whoever they decide to add])

 

[Hero.]

What I want 2 know is why ppl want to keep the Starfox series at 3 characters max? They have always gotten a new character every SSB (Nothing→SSB=Fox, SSB→SSBM=Falco, SSBM→SSBB=Wolf) I dont see why they cant continue that (SSBB→SSB4=Krystal [or whoever they decide to add])

I completely agree.

 

[Big-Cat]

What I want 2 know is why ppl want to keep the Starfox series at 3 characters max? They have always gotten a new character every SSB (Nothing→SSB=Fox, SSB→SSBM=Falco, SSBM→SSBB=Wolf) I dont see why they cant continue that (SSBB→SSB4=Krystal [or whoever they decide to add])

Well, to put it simply, a lot of people in this thread have "quotas," "max reps," and go by a number of things to determine these things like sales in order to create a "realistic" roster. A lot of people usually say no to anymore than three because the series isn't that big.

As for Krystal, I like her as a character, but do not see her as playable. An AT would be perfect.

I think an AT would be a waste of her potential to truly bring something new to the table, something Wolf doesn't exactly do.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

*Sigh* This arguement again?
I think Krystal could get in, I don't like her so I don't want her in, but my opinoin matters very little to Nintendo so theres a strogn chance she could be in. I'd prefer Peppy

 

[Pieman0920]

Perceived genericness is irrelevant, only popularity and importance matter. Roy has both.

Popular with non-fans, and not really important at all. Plus, this doesn't seem like a valid defence against your comments that people like Roy for his character. =/

An intended exclusion means the character was never planned to return. This only applies to Pichu, although Doc wasn't very seriously considered.

Roy (and Mewtwo) had victory themes planned along with the rest of the cast (including Ike and Lucario, minus Wolf). If an old character is involved in a new feature, even if said feature didn't come about, that character was obviously intended to be in the game.

Intended at a point, but not by the end. (Also Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo. ) By the end of the process, its clear that Roy wasn't intended, since if he was, he would have gotten in.

Side note, I know you think the roster is determined by slots and clones and whatnot, but it isn't. And there's no precedence that says cut characters can't return because we've never had cut characters before (blame Shigesato Itoi for ruining your chance to find out).

Its clear that Brawl's roter was determined by slots though...

Anyways, while its true that there could pottentially be cut characters coming back from the grave, it makes no sense to bring back the unimportant characters. The only one who has any pottential to return seems to be Mewtwo, and even he doesn't have much of a chance. (Outside of a pottential Smash DS game which needs a completely different approach in regards to its roster)

Except Smash Bros. MADE Fire Emblem outside of Japan. No other series has benefitted as much as Fire Emblem from being in Smash. Let me emphasize this:

The most important game to the Fire Emblem series is Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Look up anything on the history of either Fire Emblem or Smash Bros. I guarantee you a paragraph (at the top of the page if it's Fire Emblem) that basically says "Marth and Roy's popularity in Melee resulted in the localization of future Fire Emblem games." For good reason too. And here's the kicker: people outside of Japan liked Roy better! Sakurai even said Marth almost got cut in the international release. You may not like the reason why he's popular, you may think he's a pretty shallow character and a sucky unit. Too bad none of those things matter because the fans totally dig him.

It makes no sense to appeal to those who actually aren't fans though. Yes Melee was important to the Fire Emblem series, but you know what? That doesn't mean Roy is. Its just like those SMRPG fans who seem to equate the game to Geno, but don't pay attention to the fact that he wasn't the point of the game. In terms of Melee, Marth was the original character there, not the living breathing ad that was Roy. Heck, given Fire Emblem's overseas sucess being associated with Smash, and given that it clearly seems to be based more on marketing than other series, should tell you that Roy won't get back in since his game isn't international. Also you do know that Roy was also almost cut along with Marth at the time, right? Really now as I said before, if you want to go by non-fans popularity as a reason a character should get in, then you should be betting on Waluigi, Daisy, and Young Link for getting into SSB4. While you may claim that the other series act different, I don't quite think that its a very conclusive point, since you've really got little evidence that it actually will act different.

I like how being a blue-haired swordsman is an issue to you. Don't worry though, Sigurd won't get in.

Do you really think that's not a problem? Not even Star Fox is that bad, and Star Fox is pretty clone-tacular.

Next Level and Camelot haven't suggested a playable Doc or Isaac (and PO2 doesn't technically exist yet). Only a co-op mode for PO2 and the new GS3 hero being a descendant of Isaac and friends. Compare to what the top brass at IS have said:
"We don't want to make more remakes unless SD is a big hit."
"We want to make a game that opens up Fire Emblem to an expanded audience."
"We want to make a game with an all-star cast."

When developers say stuff like this, they usually follow through. If all signs point to X, is it wrong to expect?

As I said though, the future is unpredictable, and all of that could simply happen. Heck, I would think that a plot point about time travel would be kept underwraps anyways, and as we don't know what the pottential PO2 would be like, anything's up in the air. Anyways, isn't it odd that you dismiss PO2 there despite it having the exact same situation right now as the pottential FE12? (Aka they simply are speculating for when and if the time comes, though nothing is confirmed as of yet)

As for FE12, well, maybe. It could come out and people could like a new Lord, but they could also pan it. FE fans don't accept everything thrown at them like some Pokemon fans tend to.

According to you, all it takes it the character's looks and a bit of fire for them to accept a character.

Don't put all your money on Ephraim #2 just because he/she will be new. Newness by itself is meaningless. Only what people think of them counts.

Yeah, newness doesn't mean everything, but given the FE series current progression of having the newest lord, it seems like one of the safest bets for SSB4. In addition, I would assume that the next lord's game will actually be international, and people can actually use the character, and like him for what he is in his series, instead of a different game completely. (Plus, if Ephraim was around at the time of SSBB then he really could have made it in.)

 

[SmashChu]

^This may be counter productive, but your wrong Pieman0920. Toise understands what's going on. You don't. Your comments were out of place too.

 

[BG3]

@Pieman: Roy was intended for Brawl, but was cut due to time constraints. If there may have been one or two more delays, you could probably guarantee he was going to be part of the roster. This video has some evidence of the suggestion for Roy to be in Brawl, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5N8FUqVDwU.

He may have also only been cut at the end of development due to most likely his clone status, and while there are still some clones in Brawl, I guess Sakurai wanted to back up his "no clones" statement a little. Even then, I'm pretty sure that he was recommended pretty late into development, so it would be hard to implement a less-clonish version of him. If he was programmed maybe as early as Ike was, you could have expected an appearance from him. But, as most people have said already, we don't really know unless Nintendo personally says something themselves. And also, it really doesn't matter in FE's case for genericness. Practically in every game in the series, there is always going to be a swordsman, an axefighter, a mage, etc.

Genericness is something that FE really doesn't need to worry about, IMO. Some people probably say Marth and Ike or Erk and Soren are the same because they both weild swords or they both use magic. It doesn't really matter if they try to bring something unique to the table when you're concerning the FE series. The characters may be very different in terms of personality and character, but if you're concerning fans, then most swordsman in the FE series are all the same. Some SSB fans will probably tell you that Roy and Ike are the same because they have fire based attacks and both use swords, while an FE fan would completely disagree. In the end, when you're talking about the FE series, it really matters on popularity, and not too much emphasis is given on uniquness and the like. So yeah, Toise basically had it right Pieman.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

What I want 2 know is why ppl want to keep the Starfox series at 3 characters max? They have always gotten a new character every SSB (Nothing→SSB=Fox, SSB→SSBM=Falco, SSBM→SSBB=Wolf) I dont see why they cant continue that (SSBB→SSB4=Krystal [or whoever they decide to add])

I agree as well.

That said, it'd be neat if Leon and Panther would eventually show up in SSB5 and 6 (respectively). Granted, the Star Fox series isn't that big, but it does only have a few characters with combat potential, unlike bigger series like Mario and Zelda.

Also, I should point out that Leon's a chameleon, so he could use his tail (for combat) and color-changing skin (for camouflaging) to his advantage.

Tricky would probably be a better choice for an AT than Krystal, though.

Oh, and BG3? You might want to use paragraphs so that the other readers will have an easier time reading your wall of text, if you don't mind...

 

[BG3]

I agree as well.

That said, it'd be neat if Leon and Panther would eventually show up in SSB5 and 6 (respectively). Granted, the Star Fox series isn't that big, but it does only have a few characters with combat potential, unlike bigger series like Mario and Zelda.

Also, I should point out that Leon's a chameleon, so he could use his tail (for combat) and color-changing skin (for camouflaging) to his advantage.

Tricky would probably be a better choice for an AT than Krystal, though.

Oh, and BG3? You might want to use paragraphs so that the other readers will have an easier time reading your wall of text, if you don't mind...

My bad, just edited it.

 

[Hero.]

I agree as well.

That said, it'd be neat if Leon and Panther would eventually show up in SSB5 and 6 (respectively). Granted, the Star Fox series isn't that big, but it does only have a few characters with combat potential, unlike bigger series like Mario and Zelda.

Also, I should point out that Leon's a chameleon, so he could use his tail (for combat) and color-changing skin (for camouflaging) to his advantage.

Tricky would probably be a better choice for an AT than Krystal, though.

Oh, and BG3? You might want to use paragraphs so that the other readers will have an easier time reading your wall of text, if you don't mind...

Yeah and leon could use his tongue for tether grabs and to grab the ledge.

I think Star Fox should be Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Krystal or replace Krystal with Leon

 

[Pieman0920]

@Pieman: Roy was intended for Brawl, but was cut due to time constraints. If there may have been one or two more delays, you could probably guarantee he was going to be part of the roster. This video has some evidence of the suggestion for Roy to be in Brawl, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5N8FUqVDwU.

First off, I don't think any of us really know the real reasons for why everyone was cut (besides Dixie). Given that you suggest other methods though, kind of makes me saying this pointless though, since you yourself counter it. Second off, that video is a joke, right?

He may have also only been cut at the end of development due to most likely his clone status, and while there are still some clones in Brawl, I guess Sakurai wanted to back up his "no clones" statement a little. Even then, I'm pretty sure that he was recommended pretty late into development, so it would be hard to implement a less-clonish version of him. If he was programmed maybe as early as Ike was, you could have expected an appearance from him. But, as most people have said already, we don't really know unless Nintendo personally says something themselves. And also, it really doesn't matter in FE's case for genericness. Practically in every game in the series, there is always going to be a swordsman, an axefighter, a mage, etc.

Actually, Sakurai never said anything about no clones. And I do know that when it comes to Fire Emblem, most of the main lords are generic, but the reason I brought it up was that Toise was saying that people liked Roy for his character, which just made little sense to me given that they shouldn't even know what his character was like, and if they did, they'd know its about as exciting as watching paint dry. Also, while I think your idea on what I meant by being generic is a bit different, since you're claiming it has to do with weapons or something, if you were to go by that, then it'd be better to use a axe fighter or a mage, since those are unrepresented tropes within Fire Emblem.

Genericness is something that FE really doesn't need to worry about, IMO. Some people probably say Marth and Ike or Erk and Soren are the same because they both weild swords or they both use magic. It doesn't really matter if they try to bring something unique to the table when you're concerning the FE series. The characters may be very different in terms of personality and character, but if you're concerning fans, then most swordsman in the FE series are all the same. Some SSB fans will probably tell you that Roy and Ike are the same because they have fire based attacks and both use swords, while an FE fan would completely disagree. In the end, when you're talking about the FE series, it really matters on popularity, and not too much emphasis is given on uniquness and the like. So yeah, Toise basically had it right Pieman.

But that makes no sense though. You're saying that a non-fan wouldn't really know the difference between Ike and Roy, and they are the only ones who really want Roy. And as I said before, by your description, it makes loads more sense to use a different type of Fire Emblem trope, rather than using the same one three times.

 

[n88]

Roy has more support than any other FE lord. Admittedly, most of this popularity comes from Smash fans, not FE fans, but which group do you think plays Smash more?

@ StarFox questions

I'm kind of opposed to a new StarFox character because of the reps thing. StarFox is extremely lucky to have what it has currently. Two stages, three characters, and one AT for a series w/only five games? It's currently got as much rep as Kirby, and more than DK, which is just wrong.

 

[Arcadenik]

The only reason Star Fox got 3 characters in the first place was because both Falco and Wolf were added as last-minute filler clones. Falco was added as a last-minute filler clone in Melee but he was planned to be in Brawl from the beginning and he's still a clone.

 

[n88]

@Arcadenik

Falco is actually a bit more differentiated from Fox in Brawl, he's fine as is. Wolf is a clone only in his Specials and Final Smash.

EDIT: Plus, I think Wolf was a last-minute "Westerners get Sonic, let's throw someone in there for Japan" guy.

 

[Arcadenik]

As I've said before, I don't play Star Fox games but from what I've read around the Internet... none of the Star Fox characters have any potential to be different from each other since they are always in their planes and tanks... and whenever they are fighting outside their vehicles, they tend to have the same abilities as each other in multiplayer modes. The only Star Fox character who seems to have the potential to be different is Krystal since she was seen to be using her staff in the beginning of Star Fox Adventures before she was imprisoned for the rest of the game. Sakurai could give Krystal all of Fox's moves from Star Fox Adventures (not Fox's moves from the Smash Bros. series) so she could be different. So, I would prefer Krystal to be playable instead of Slippy, Leon, and Panther since they are more likely to end up as clones. And I would like Krystal to replace Falco or Wolf because Star Fox does not need four characters, let alone two clones.