[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Arcadenik]

Tails is not getting in. Ever. If Sonic comes back, Tails won't get in. If Sonic doesn't come back, Tails won't get in anyway. Why? Because each third-party company gets only one character. That's it. No more. Why? Because they are just guests like Sakurai said. And besides, Sakurai never wanted Sonic in the first place but added him anyway because Nintendo told him to. So why would he want to add a second Sonic character?

Geno is not important to the Mario franchise as a whole. The game itself, Super Mario RPG, is important to the whole franchise because it inspired the Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series.

 

[Starphoenix]

When Sakurai made that comment, he still said it was possible, and with fan demand, combined with his role within the Metroid series, I'd say Ridley is much more likely than DS.

For one, that's not all the conditions for ATs. Surely Isaac, Goroh, Saki, Little Mac and other ATs are meant for fighting, though they just fell short. (As Fatman said, its also possible they are the characters fans requested in the poll, since Sakurai had already made up his mind about the cast before that.) Ridley's size is a complete and utter non-issue as far as being a AT is concerned...heck, look at Andross...or Groudon. Perhaps Ridley was at first supposed to be a AT, but later got turned into two bosses due to popularity.

While it may be true, it was never confirmed if he even was to be an AT or not. I still say DS has more of a chance that Ridley, and even greater than that is the likely possibility we will not see anybody. Unless Other M gives Adam Malkovich a power suit, kick butt abilities and a significant part of the plot. lol

But it all depends on what Other M does as far as character development is concerned (in the case of other primary individuals), since they are trying to paint more of a story with this game. If nothing comes of it, Samus will continue to be the sole representative of Metroid.

 

[Clownbot]

Tails is not getting in. Ever. If Sonic comes back, Tails won't get in. If Sonic doesn't come back, Tails won't get in anyway. Why? Because each third-party company gets only one character. That's it. No more. Why? Because they are just guests like Sakurai said. And besides, Sakurai never wanted Sonic in the first place but added him anyway because Nintendo told him to. So why would he want to add a second Sonic character?

...For the same reason Sonic was added.

I doubt we'll see an additional Sonic character, but it's not impossible. Sonic's pretty popular with a lot of people, and a lot of people have requested more Sonic characters.

(I'm not pushing for one, nor do I think it will happen, though.)

 

[Volkner582]

Tails is not getting in. Ever. If Sonic comes back, Tails won't get in. If Sonic doesn't come back, Tails won't get in anyway. Why? Because each third-party company gets only one character. That's it. No more. Why? Because they are just guests like Sakurai said. And besides, Sakurai never wanted Sonic in the first place but added him anyway because Nintendo told him to. So why would he want to add a second Sonic character?

Geno is not important to the Mario franchise as a whole. The game itself, Super Mario RPG, is important to the whole franchise because it inspired the Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series.

Actually, Sakurai intended to have Sonic in Brawl even before fans started asking for him. Furthermore, Tails has a very good chance of appearing in SSB4, as does Geno. Also, guests or not, Snake and Sonic are definitely returning for the next Smash Bros. They're just that popular now!

 

[Pieman0920]

While it may be true, it was never confirmed if he even was to be an AT or not. I still say DS has more of a chance that Ridley, and even greater than that is the likely possibility we will not see anybody. Unless Other M gives Adam Malkovich a power suit, kick butt abilities and a significant part of the plot. lol

But it all depends on what Other M does as far as character development is concerned (in the case of other primary individuals), since they are trying to paint more of a story with this game. If nothing comes of it, Samus will continue to be the sole representative of Metroid.

While I will say that there is a distinct possibiity that there will be no new character, I still can't see any logic behind DS before Ridley outside of size though...it just makes no sense. Its like adding in Shadow Mario before Bowser, just because Bowser is like 3 to 5 times the size of Mario in most of the standard games. But as far as Ridley being intended to be a AT, it was something extracted from the Brawl data just like the data on those 7 cut characters.

Actually, Sakurai intended to have Sonic in Brawl even before fans started asking for him.

I don't know where you got that, but if I remember correctly from Iwata Asks, Sonic was put in alter due to fan demand...

 

[Zario777]

I no how to incorperate all of these ppl in the list below

Baby Mario (New Yoshi Character)
Bowser (Alredy playable)
Bowser Jr. (Bowser's alternate character not costume)
Diddy Kong (Alredy playable)
Dixie Kong (Diddy Alternate Character{although I see Tiny with a better moveset})
Donkey Kong (Alredy playable)
King Boo (New Mario Character)
King K. Rool (New DK Character)
Luigi (Alredy playable)
Mario (Alredy playable)
Peach (Alredy playable)
Petey Piranha (Boss)
Toad (Peach's B move)
Wario (Alredy playable)
Yoshi (Alredy playable)

Mario Series
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser/Bowser Jr.
King Boo

Donkey Kong Series
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong/Dixie Kong
King K. Rool

Yoshi Series
Yoshi
Baby Mario

Wario Series
Wario

 

[n88]

@Zario

I'm not a fan of turning Bowser Jr. into a Bowser clone. Correct me if that's not what you're suggesting.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Zario, I never understood your alternate character idea, it just doesn't make sense. Why have alternate characters when they can just be a character in their own?

 

[Starphoenix]

While I will say that there is a distinct possibiity that there will be no new character, I still can't see any logic behind DS before Ridley outside of size though...it just makes no sense. Its like adding in Shadow Mario before Bowser, just because Bowser is like 3 to 5 times the size of Mario in most of the standard games. But as far as Ridley being intended to be a AT, it was something extracted from the Brawl data just like the data on those 7 cut characters.

Okay, so it was true, that is neat to know.

The reason DS would get in over Ridley is because she would be easier to develop. Sakurai would more than likely go the clone route in dealing with another character, by "clone" I mean using the frame of an already existing model. Given that Ridley would require a little extra imagination on the part of the developers, I just cannot see them not going the easy route. Should Toon Link have been a clone in light of Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass? Should all three Star Fox characters have had the same Final Smash along side the Mother characters?

It isn't as much of the fact that he doesn't deserve to be in, it is more that I do not have much faith that he will be worth (in their eyes) wasting their time developing a character who would be even more bizarre than Olimar
(as far as play style goes), when they can simply make a Luigi-Wolf clone and call it a day. While focusing on useless game modes such as Masterpieces with the rest of their skewed priorities.

Zario, I never understood your alternate character idea, it just doesn't make sense. Why have alternate characters when they can just be a character in their own?

I think the idea is to save slot room.

 

[Arcadenik]

See? Sakurai said "only the most dedicated fans will recognize" - of course, this means fanboys. Only fanboys would know obscure characters like Geno.

Casual fans of the Mario series would most likely recognize characters like Mario, Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Wario, Waluigi, Toad, Toadette, Yoshi, Birdo, Bowser, and Bowser Jr. from contemporary canon games and/or spin-off games.

Fanboys of the Mario series would not only recognize these characters but also the obscure characters from past games (from about 10 to 20 years ago) like Mallow, Geno, Wart, Tatanga, Donkey Kong Jr., and many more than I can list here.

There lies the difference between fans and fanboys. Sakurai is looking to make both groups happy so he adds most-famed characters as playable characters and obscure characters as Assist Trophies.

 

[Pieman0920]

Okay, so it was true, that is neat to know.

The reason DS would get in over Ridley is because she would be easier to develop. Sakurai would more than likely go the clone route in dealing with another character, by "clone" I mean using the frame of an already existing model. Given that Ridley would require a little extra imagination on the part of the developers, I just cannot see them not going the easy route. Should Toon Link have been a clone in light of Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass? Should all three Star Fox characters have had the same Final Smash along side the Mother characters?

By that logic, every character should just be a clone of everyone else. There wouldn't be any new characters at all, just those who used variations of other's models. Plus, its not that hard to get Ridley in, seeing as we already have Charizard, so this really doesn't make sense. Yes the developers are lazy at times, but not completely.

It isn't as much of the fact that he doesn't deserve to be in, it is more that I do not have much faith that he will be worth (in their eyes) wasting their time developing a character who would be even more bizarre than Olimar
(as far as play style goes), when they can simply make a Luigi-Wolf clone and call it a day. While focusing on useless game modes such as Masterpieces.

As said, we already have Charizard, so Ridley isn't that much of a stretch further...and his play style wouldn't really be as bizarre, and I have no idea where you'd get that. His model may be something of a issue, but the way he would fight wouldn't be a problem at all, since his way of fighting really isn't that far out (they already let him fight twice in SSE, so we know they have moves for him) Seriosuly, while there is cause to be somewhat cynical, there shouldn't be such a lack of faith. (Plus, Masterpieces probably only took like a week tops.)

 

[n88]

@Starphoenix

Dark Samus is more likely for the reasons you gave, but there are some things you have to consider.

1) Nintendo will continue making Smash games until they no longer make money.

2) Because of 1), Nintendo will be making Smash Bros until it goes out of business

3) Even if Nintendo does go out of business, another company will end up with the rights to Nintendo characters

4) The new company will continue to make Smash games until they go out of business

5) This means that new Smash games will be created until the apocalypse

6) The apocalypse is millions or billions of years away (not three)

7) We get an average of 3 Smash games every 10 years.

8) 1,000,000 years/10 = 100,000 Smash games (minimum)

Ridley has to make it into one of those.

 

[Zario777]

@Zario
I'm not a fan of turning Bowser Jr. into a Bowser clone. Correct me if that's not what you're suggesting.

Thats not what im suggesting

Zario, I never understood your alternate character idea, it just doesn't make sense. Why have alternate characters when they can just be a character in their own?

Well it seems like on this forums that every1 has agreed that there will be an extra slot for one more character 4 the major series. That makes it 5 characters for each major franchise. Well with the Alternate Characters Idea, you could have each character have another
character playable by pressing a button on that character. That way, it won't take up any slots for that said franchise, and lets that said franchise have 10 characters instead of 5 (e.g. Mario's group=Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Next Mario character, Mario's Alternate, Luigi's Alternate, Peach's Alternate, Bowser's alternate, Next Mario Character's Alternate)

Do get where im goin with this?

EDIT:

I think the idea is to save slot room.

Thats exactly what im getting at (plus the addition to add more characters)

 

[Starphoenix]

By that logic, every character should just be a clone of everyone else. There wouldn't be any new characters at all, just those who used variations of other's models. Plus, its not that hard to get Ridley in, seeing as we already have Charizard, so this really doesn't make sense. Yes the developers are lazy at times, but not completely.



As said, we already have Charizard, so Ridley isn't that much of a stretch further...and his play style wouldn't really be as bizarre, and I have no idea where you'd get that. His model may be something of a issue, but the way he would fight wouldn't be a problem at all, since his way of fighting really isn't that far out (they already let him fight twice in SSE, so we know they have moves for him) Seriosuly, while there is cause to be somewhat cynical, there shouldn't be such a lack of faith. (Plus, Masterpieces probably only took like a week tops.)

Charizard is not the same as Ridley, a better comparison would be Ivysaur. Since if he was on the ground he would be quadrupedal, unless he was simply sitting. Very little of his time would be spent in the air, outside of jumps and gliding. Unless they want to blow everyone's mind and make him the only airborne fighter with drawbacks that would prevent him from being unable to be KO'd or simply flying off a stage for an entire match. A simple exhaustion feature could work well were there would be periods where he would have to land to rest or plummet to death.

I just use Masterpieces as the prime example of wasted data.

Thats not what im suggesting



Well it seems like on this forums that every1 has agreed that there will be an extra slot for one more character 4 the major series. That makes it 5 characters for each major franchise. Well with the Alternate Characters Idea, you could have each character have another
character playable by pressing a button on that character. That way, it won't take up any slots for that said franchise, and lets that said franchise have 10 characters instead of 5 (e.g. Mario's group=Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Next Mario character, Mario's Alternate, Luigi's Alternate, Peach's Alternate, Bowser's alternate, Next Mario Character's Alternate)

Do get where im goin with this?

EDIT: Thats exactly what im getting at (plus the addition to add more characters)

So basically it would be a mix similar to changing between Wario costumes and selecting a Pokémon with Pokémon Trainer? Reminds me of selecting Shadow Chun Li in MvC, minus clicking offscreen and doing that whole rotation mess.

 

[n88]

@Zario

Well, that just seems strange to me. It seems that the standard number of slots would decrease rather than doubling the number of characters, and it would just make for a really small CSS.

 

[Arcadenik]

So, instead of 44-50 characters, we get 88-100 characters if we had alternate characters? Talk about unrealistic expectations. Its just like those character select screens with more than 100 slots fans made with Photoshop after Brawl was announced.

 

[Zario777]

But it won't be like those fan rosters because instead of 88-100 characters showing, we'd have 44-50 showing =P

 

[n88]

Hiding half the characters doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[Arcadenik]

That's not the point. There would be 88-100 playable characters... just like those hideous fan-made character select screens. Lower your expectations and you won't be that disappointed when the final roster of SSB4 is revealed.

 

[Zario777]

I'm not expecting anything. Its just a good idea IMO

 

[Pieman0920]

Charizard is not the same as Ridley, a better comparison would be Ivysaur. Since if he was on the ground he would be quadrupedal, unless he was simply sitting. Very little of his time would be spent in the air, outside of jumps and gliding. Unless they want to blow everyone's mind and make him the only airborne fighter with drawbacks that would prevent him from being unable to be KO'd or simply flying off a stage for an entire match. A simple exhaustion feature could work well were there would be periods where he would have to land to rest or plummet to death.

Huh? Ivysaur? No.

If you really want to go by the fact that Ridley would be closer to being on all fours when actually landed on the ground, the better comparison to that is actually Donkey Kong or Diddy, as Ridley isn't a technical quadruped, but rather just has very long arms. Still, that wouldn't really effect him in any way becasue...it just woudn't. And I don't get those in the air comments, as we've got characters like Charizard, Pit, and Metaknight, who all have wings, and should theoreitcally keep on flying, but don't for the sake of the game.

 

[Starphoenix]

Huh? Ivysaur? No.

If you really want to go by the fact that Ridley would be closer to being on all fours when actually landed on the ground, the better comparison to that is actually Donkey Kong or Diddy, as Ridley isn't technical quadruped, but rather just has very long arms. Still, that wouldn't really effect him in any way becasue...it just woudn't. And I don't get those in the air comments, as we've got characters like Charizard, Pit, and Metaknight, who all have wings, and should theoreitcally keep on flying, but don't for the sake of the game.

Donkey Kong walks on all fours? Whoa, that completely slipped my mind. o_o



Yes, but unlike them Ridley relies on aerial combat even more than either of those mentioned. In Super Metroid the only time he was on the ground was to sit and the rest of the time he was in the air. Prime was the only time I saw him actually move around on the ground, even than you practically had to shoot him out of the sky. The only times when Ridley has been seen even remotely in a bipedal posture to my knowledge is when in flight or grabbing Samus (Super Metroid, Other M).

If he was to be in, I would think utilizing his full aerial abilities would make him unique and fit to character.

 

[n88]

Why not make Ridley's normal stance so that he hovers just a few inches above the ground? That way, he could use attacks from his appearances as tilts/smashes without looking bizarre.

 

[Pieman0920]

Donkey Kong walks on all fours? Whoa, that completely slipped my mind. o_o



Yes, but unlike them Ridley relies on aerial combat even more than either of those mentioned. In Super Metroid the only time he was on the ground was to sit and the rest of the time he was in the air. Prime was the only time I saw him actually move around on the ground, even than you practically had to shoot him out of the sky. The only times when Ridley has been seen even remotely in a bipedal posture to my knowledge is when in flight or grabbing Samus (Super Metroid, Other M).

If he was to be in, I would think utilizing his full aerial abilities would make him unique and fit to character.

You're forgetting MP3, where he got so heavy he couldn't fly all that much, and thus had to fight a lot on the ground. Interestingly, whie Ridley did spend a lot of time on all fours in that fight, he actually stood up on two legs to walk forward.

 

[WolfCypher]

See, the problem with speculating character rosters for a unconfirmed game that would probably not happen for a good amount of years, is that our perspectives will change, especially as new characters and franchises are added to Nintendo's back catalog.

Anyhoo, lets introduce reps from these series.

Golden Sun
Sin & Punishment
The Legendary Starfy
Punch-Out!
Advanced Wars

 

[Big-Cat]

The word "represent" isn't a political saying in this discussion, its the word that best describes this issue we are talking about. Suggest to me a word that actually works better than it if you want people to stop usiing it.

A better way to look at the roster is as a Nintendo catalog. In this case, you look at what characters would you put into that catalog, disregarding the other series.

By using the word "representative" as it has been used, it's too much like Congress since Congress' amount of representatives per state is based on state population. People have been doing this with the sales of games.

Also, I suggest thinking outside the box and listening to other thoughts, Pieman. You've been acting rather arrogant. To me, it looks like you think you know everything.

 

[Wizzerd]

A better way to look at the roster is as a Nintendo catalog. In this case, you look at what characters would you put into that catalog, disregarding the other series.

By using the word "representative" as it has been used, it's too much like Congress since Congress' amount of representatives per state is based on state population. People have been doing this with the sales of games.

The phrase "representative" is not faulty at all. For proof, look at Pokemon. There are dozens of popular Pokemon. Do we get more because of that? No. We get four Pokemon and the removal of Mewtwo, and the reps for Pokemon match that of Legend of Zelda, a series with very few recurring characters (we got an alt form of Link to meet the quota.) There are countless other examples, like the two series in 64 with multiple reps being the two best-selling series. Also, remember that more significant series with multiple games and good sales will get far more support.

 

[Starphoenix]

See, the problem with speculating character rosters for a unconfirmed game that would probably not happen for a good amount of years, is that our perspectives will change, especially as new characters and franchises are added to Nintendo's back catalog.

Anyhoo, lets introduce reps from these series.

Golden Sun
Sin & Punishment
The Legendary Starfy
Punch-Out!
Advanced Wars

I'd agree with most all of those, except for Advance Wars. Just not sure about who could possibly be a playable character from the series.

If I had to rank the other four based upon likelihood of appearing it would probably look like this:

Starfy
Little Mac
GS Character
S&P Character

I would also throw in Custom Robo; also, is Chibi Robo Nintendo property?

 

[n88]

I think Little Mac has a better shot than Starfy. I was under the impression that Little Mac was the number one character most likely to appear.

Plus, Starfy sucked so bad as an AT that Sakurai must hate him.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I really don't think Geno is the right character to represent the Mario franchise as a whole. He has been in only one game... one game out of more than 100 games in the whole Mario franchise. Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser are major recurring characters who have appeared in almost all the games in the Mario franchise, both canon and spin-off. That's why they properly represent the Mario franchise as a whole. Geno never appeared in any spin-off games and he is not a recurring character (let alone a major recurring character) in canon games. Adding Geno would misrepresent the Mario franchise as a whole because customers and fans would question why he is there if he's been in only one game in the whole Mario franchise. Geno is overrated, even more so than Ridley because at least Ridley is a major recurring character in the whole Metroid franchise.

There are several things wrong with this statement:

1. The goal is not to represent the franchise as a whole. For the Mario franchise, Mario is the only character who can effectively do this. For example, if for some weird reason, Mario was cut from the next Smash Bros game and it just left Luigi, Peach, and Bowser, people would be scratching their heads and be like "Where's Mario? This doesn't make sense." If Peach was gone, it'd be acceptable because Mario would be there and that's all that matters. Peach and Bowser weren't in the first Smash Bros and there really wasn't a problem with that. This is how it is for all the franchises represented in Brawl except Fire Emblem and Mother who don't have stars that are used in every game.

2. He's not a reoccuring character because he's owned by Square Enix and, from about 1997until about 2003, Nintendo and Square had a bad blood between them thanks to FFVII (which was originally planned for the N64) and comments made by Nintendo's President at the time. That's also the reason why Paper Mario replaced Mario RPG because Square was originally involved but things became sour between the two companies after FFVII became a run away success.

Geno barely represents Square Enix well... Look I admire the blue doll and all, SMRPG was a fabulous game. But I would much rather see a different Square rep; like Slime, or Crono (especially Crono). I also think Paper Mario is more deserving of a slot, given the fact the series is still ongoing. Plus PM is long overdue for some type of acknowledgment beyond trophies... No stage or music Sakurai?

His purpose wouldn't be to represent Square Enix as a whole, as I've said many times before. If added, he'd be with the other Mario characters. He'd be more like a nod to Square Enix seeing how him and Mallow were the first characters created together by Nintendo and a third party.

See? Sakurai said "only the most dedicated fans will recognize" - of course, this means fanboys. Only fanboys would know obscure characters like Geno.

Casual fans of the Mario series would most likely recognize characters like Mario, Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Wario, Waluigi, Toad, Toadette, Yoshi, Birdo, Bowser, and Bowser Jr. from contemporary canon games and/or spin-off games.

Fanboys of the Mario series would not only recognize these characters but also the obscure characters from past games (from about 10 to 20 years ago) like Mallow, Geno, Wart, Tatanga, Donkey Kong Jr., and many more than I can list here.

There lies the difference between fans and fanboys. Sakurai is looking to make both groups happy so he adds most-famed characters as playable characters and obscure characters as Assist Trophies.

A fanboy is not someone who knows a lot about a franchise, a fanboy is someone who tries to make everyone else think that their favorite game, franchise, team, company, etc is the best thing ever and, if they don't agree, they jump down their throat and basically try to disembowel them with words until they conform to their way of thought. A lot of people get this wrong and it's tiring especially to people like me who are very knowlegdable about most Nintendo franchises in general.

Anyways, this isn't exactly true. Look at the assist trophies in Brawl and divide them into decently known to obscure:

Decently known:

Samurai Goroh
Knuckle Joe
Andross
Lyn
Mr. Resetti
Excitebike
Little Mac
Stafy (in Japan)
Waluigi
Metroid
Tingle
Kat and Ana
Jeff
Nintendog
Lakitu
Hammer Bros
Isaac
Shadow


Obscure:

Dr. Wright
Devil
Gray Fox
Saki
Helirin
Jill
MK III
Advance Wars Infantry Men
Barbara


18 are decently known, 9 are not. About 66% would be known by most fans. Also, as always, when it comes to the roster, you still have people like Mr. Game and Watch, Pit, and the Ice Climbers who had most people going into seizures trying to figure out who they are so not everyone who becomes playable popular on the level as, say, Mario and Sonic. If you wanted to take the arguement further, it could even be argued that Olimar, ROB, Ness, Lucas, Marth, and Ike are obscure too because they wouldn't be recongised by the casual audience that would only play the most popular games.

All in all, people need to realise that SSB4 will more than likely wander further into obscure territories seeing how a vast majority of the major characters/franchises have already been represented in playable form. Basically, we're getting to a point where more and more of the additions will reflect the the more dedicated fans than the people who play Mario Kart whenever they go their cousin's house for the weekend.

 

[n88]

Your list of known ATs is too big. Most people who bought Brawl had no idea who Samurai Goroh is. I know people who love the Smash series to death and don't even know who Sakurai is.

A better list would be:

Decently known:

Mr. Resetti
Little Mac
Waluigi
Nintendog
Lakitu
Hammer Bros
Shadow

Obscure:

Everyone else


This actually helps your argument, but I think you're probably right, so I don't mind.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I'd put Mac and Resetti a step above decently known.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I would like to change Falco's Side Special, Up Special, and Final Smash, please. Here's my idea:

Side Special: throws a Motion-Sensor Bomb, which after thrown, does what a regular MSB does

Up Special: Maybe a roundhouse kick upward with some height gain, and comes falling down trying to pound his fist to the ground... I don't know...

Final Smash: Something involving his Arwing. Falco prefers the air, and a Landmaster is NOT an air vehicle, Sakurai.

What do you guys think? Isn't Falco AWESOME?!

 

[n88]

I'd put Mac and Resetti a step above decently known.

Well, I didn't see the point in giving those two their own tier(s).

As for changing Falco, I don't know about your Up-B. Side-B and FS sound good, though.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

Any ideas for Falco's Up Special?

 

[Big-Cat]

The phrase "representative" is not faulty at all. For proof, look at Pokemon. There are dozens of popular Pokemon. Do we get more because of that? No. We get four Pokemon and the removal of Mewtwo, and the reps for Pokemon match that of Legend of Zelda, a series with very few recurring characters (we got an alt form of Link to meet the quota.) There are countless other examples, like the two series in 64 with multiple reps being the two best-selling series. Also, remember that more significant series with multiple games and good sales will get far more support.

Yet all but one of the Pokemon characters are from the first generation? Wouldn't it be fair for their to be one character for each gen? Wouldn't it be better representation of the series?

The reason why we have a second Link still is because having both Links is necessary as both make up the whole Zelda series. It wasn't because Zelda needed to be even with Pokemon.

The reason why we got two characters for Mario and Pokemon was more than likely because those characters were popular in their own right.

The only reason the bigger series get more support is because more people have played a game or two from those series, and when you get down to it, support doesn't mean anything if Brawl is any indication.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Your list of known ATs is too big. Most people who bought Brawl had no idea who Samurai Goroh is. I know people who love the Smash series to death and don't even know who Sakurai is.

A better list would be:

Decently known:

Mr. Resetti
Little Mac
Waluigi
Nintendog
Lakitu
Hammer Bros
Shadow

Obscure:

Everyone else


This actually helps your argument, but I think you're probably right, so I don't mind.

All the people I've listed are decently known within their own realms. Jeff had a trophy in Melee and was referenced in the first Smash Bros, Samurai Goroh has been in all 6 F-Zero games, it's impossible not to know what a Metroid is if you've at least played a Metroid game and, even then, things would line up because it's the name of the franchise, Knuckle Joe is a common enemy in the Kirby games and has been around since Kirby Superstar (1996), Andross was the main boss of the first three Star Fox games, Golden Sun was a million seller in Japan, North America, and Europe, Tingle has been in every Zelda game since Majora's Mask except Twilight Princess, Kat and Ana have been in every Wario Ware game, Stafy's franchise sells reasonably well in Japan, Excitebike has been remade 4 times and was even in the first Animal Crossing, and Lyn is still one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters.

@ Mario the Jumpman:

I think Falco's fine the way he is. He's basically a Luigified clone of Fox which makes sense because:

1. They are on the same team.
2. They both learned to fight at the same military academy.

Despite their similarities, they still have enough differences to set them apart and Falco's "street" influence can be seen. Out of all the "clones", Ganondorf's the only one who I think needs to have more made different from his counterpart.

 

[Wizzerd]

Yet all but one of the Pokemon characters are from the first generation? Wouldn't it be fair for their to be one character for each gen? Wouldn't it be better representation of the series?

Admittedly there could be better representation of the other gens, but the first generation Pokemon *are* the most recognizable and popular, and it doesn't go much deeper than the characters- by that logic we need a lance and axe user to represent the FE weapon triangle even though there aren't any significant lance or axe users.

The reason why we have a second Link still is because having both Links is necessary as both make up the whole Zelda series. It wasn't because Zelda needed to be even with Pokemon.

True, but... I think it would be safe to say that it's one of the reasons. Toon Link probably wouldn't have been added if there was already a fourth Zelda character.

The reason why we got two characters for Mario and Pokemon was more than likely because those characters were popular in their own right.

King Dedede and Diddy Kong, for example, were probably equal or more popular than these characters. What matters is how many people the character has reached and how they recieved the character- which is what deservingness is. Also, you mention popularity- that's one of the core parts of deservingness...

The only reason the bigger series get more support is because more people have played a game or two from those series, and when you get down to it, support doesn't mean anything if Brawl is any indication.

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus, Kirby, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Olimar, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Marth, Ike, Ness, Lucas, Snake, Sonic, Mewtwo, Dr. Mario, Roy, Pichu and Young Link say hello.

 

[n88]

All the people I've listed are decently known within their own realms.

@ Mario the Jumpman:

I think Falco's fine the way he is. He's basically a Luigified clone of Fox which makes sense because:

1. They are on the same team.
2. They both learned to fight at the same military academy.

Despite their similarities, they still have enough differences to set them apart and Falco's "street" influence can be seen. Out of all the "clones", Ganondorf's the only one who I think needs to have more made different from his counterpart.

The Bolded is what I was trying to say. Those characters are well-known to a small group, but Smash is played by a significantly larger group, so that most people who play Smash are introduced to those characters in Smash, and didn't know about them before hand.

Ganondorf and Toon Link are the ones who need to be differentiated more. Wolf, Falco, and Lucas are definitely not clones (Despite popular opinion), so they're fine.

But Toon Link and Ganonorf should be differentiated because their current movesets are illogical, regardless of whether they're different enough. Toon Link has his own array of weapons to draw on without copying Link's, and Ganondorf should have a sword. (The taunt doesn't count)

@Wizzerd

Did you intentionally leave characters off that list?

 

[Wizzerd]

I left out the retro and WTF characters because nobody wanted them.