[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Fatmanonice]

The Bolded is what I was trying to say. Those characters are well-known to a small group, but Smash is played by a significantly larger group, so that most people who play Smash are introduced to those characters in Smash, and didn't know about them before hand.

Ganondorf and Toon Link are the ones who need to be differentiated more. Wolf, Falco, and Lucas are definitely not clones (Despite popular opinion), so they're fine.

But Toon Link and Ganonorf should be differentiated because their current movesets are illogical, regardless of whether they're different enough. Toon Link has his own array of weapons to draw on without copying Link's, and Ganondorf should have a sword. (The taunt doesn't count)

@Wizzerd

Did you intentionally leave characters off that list?

That's kind of like what I'm getting at too. When it comes to the general populace who mostly play the Mario/Pokemon games, most of the characters (both playable and ATs) are much less known. If Smash Bros was reduced to the most known characters, you'd basically be left with the Mario characters, the Donkey Kong characters, the Zelda characters, the Pokemon characters and maybe the Kirby characters. Everybody else would be unfamilar but, as I've pointed out, if you've played at least one F-Zero game, there's a good chance you know who Goroh is and if you've played at least one recent Zelda game, you probably know Tingle too.

Anyways, I do agree with what you said about Ganondorf and Toon Link. They both have a decent amount to work with but, as for Ganondorf, I think they should bring more of his black magic into play then his sword. There's already a lot of sword users but Zelda and the Mother boys are the only characters who can use "magic" (yes, I know Ness and Lucas use psychic powers, do not correct me). I also think it'd offer more unique possibilities for the character when you put Ganon's whole history into play.

 

[Pieman0920]

Given how Ike has already taken the heavy and strong swordsman role, I don't think Ganondorf needs to bust out the sword...and if he does, it should only be for a special. In addition, his magical reflection ball thing, which he almost always has in each game, should show up in Smash. That being said, isn't his current side special sort of based off his one move from OoT? (at least if done in the air) If so, we're making progress.

 

[Arcadenik]

Let me see if I got this right...

Playable characters who were well-known by most casual fans, most hardcore fans, and all Nintendo nerds:
- Mario
- Luigi
- Peach
- Bowser
- Donkey Kong
- Diddy Kong
- Yoshi
- Wario
- Link
- Zelda
- Ganondorf
- Toon Link
- Kirby
- Meta Knight
- King Dedede
- Pikachu
- Pokemon Trainer
- Squirtle
- Ivysaur
- Charizard
- Lucario
- Jigglypuff
- Sonic

Playable characters who were well-known by some casual fans, most hardcore fans, and all Nintendo nerds:
- Sheik
- Samus
- Zero Suit Samus
- Pit
- Olimar
- Fox
- Falco
- Wolf
- Captain Falcon
- Marth (in Japan)
- Ike
- Ness
- Lucas (in Japan)
- Snake

Playable characters who were well-known by few casual fans, most hardcore fans, and all Nintendo nerds:
- Ice Climbers
- R.O.B.
- Mr. Game & Watch

Assist Trophies who were well-known by most casual fans, most hardcore fans, and all Nintendo nerds:
- Hammer Brother
- Lakitu & Spinies
- Mr. Resetti
- Nintendog
- Shadow
- Waluigi

Assist Trophies who were well-known by some casual fans, most hardcore fans, and all Nintendo nerds:
- Andross
- Gray Fox
- Infantry & Tanks
- Isaac
- Jeff
- Kat & Ana
- Knuckle Joe
- Little Mac
- Lyn
- Metroid
- Ray Mk III
- Samurai Goroh
- Starfy (in Japan)
- Tingle

Assist Trophies who were well-known by few casual fans, some hardcore fans, and all Nintendo nerds:
- Barbara (in Japan)
- Devil (in Japan)
- Dr. Wright
- Excitebike
- Helirin (in Japan)
- Jeff
- Jill
- Saki Amamiya (in Japan)

 

[Fatmanonice]

Given how Ike has already taken the heavy and strong swordsman role, I don't think Ganondorf needs to bust out the sword...and if he does, it should only be for a special. In addition, his magical reflection ball thing, which he almost always has in each game, should show up in Smash. That being said, isn't his current side special sort of based off his one move from OoT? (at least if done in the air) If so, we're making progress.

This. Personally, I think his throws, smash, and standard A attacks are fine but his B attacks should be changed more. His B side attack is great and really suits him. I think his down B should be changed to a shock wave attack where he punches the ground and it sends dark energy across the course of the stage in both directions kind of like a miniature hothead. I don't really have any ideas for his up B but I think his standard B should be changed to an energy ball that can be controled like Ness's PK thunder but is a lot stronger and a slower too. Also, I kind of have a weird idea that I just thought about but hear me out... how about if Ganondorf is given a "levitate" ability like Peach? It would put more emphasis on his magic and help with easy to edgeguard recovery.

@ Arcadenik:

Yeah, that's pretty much right.

 

[SmashChu]

Your list of known ATs is too big. Most people who bought Brawl had no idea who Samurai Goroh is. I know people who love the Smash series to death and don't even know who Sakurai is.

A better list would be:

Decently known:

Mr. Resetti
Little Mac
Waluigi
Nintendog
Lakitu
Hammer Bros
Shadow

Obscure:

Everyone else


This actually helps your argument, but I think you're probably right, so I don't mind.

No, I'm going to agree with what Fatmanonice said. A lot of people will know those characters. Heck, a lot of people will know them who haven't even played the games. I think Samurai Goroh is one people defiantly know.

 

[Zario777]

I actually wouldn't like Ganon to use his sword because the LoZ series alredy has 2 of them.

Some minor things they should add to SSB4:

Make your own Break the Target stage (like stage builder[then you choose which characters can play that BtT stage)

Costume Advantages (different color costume of characters have advantages and disadvantages [could be switched off{doesn't apply to team battles}])

Board the Platforms and Race to the Finish could come back (BtP stages can also be customly made)

Note: BtT and BtP have premade stages (one for each character)

 

[SSGuy]

oh boy , i know that im not going to make a lot of friends with this stuff but here is what I think.

1. Make online better. (obviously)

2. If they want to make another story mode, put a hell lot more fan service into it. (like actual villians as enemies in it.)

3. NO SONIC CHARACTERS!!!!!!! (didn't want him in brawl and sure as hell don't want anymore hedgehogs in a fourth game. I swear it's kids stuff.)

4. More 3rd party characters. (Love to see characters as well as Rayman and Lloyd in the game.)

5. GENO! GENO! GENO! (cause he deserves it.)

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Love to see characters as well as Rayman and Lloyd in the game.)

this. a million times this

 

[lordvaati]

oh boy , i know that im not going to make a lot of friends with this stuff but here is what I think.

1. Make online better. (obviously)

2. If they want to make another story mode, put a hell lot more fan service into it. (like actual villians as enemies in it.)

3. NO SONIC CHARACTERS!!!!!!! (didn't want him in brawl and sure as hell don't want anymore hedgehogs in a fourth game. I swear it's kids stuff.)

4. More 3rd party characters. (Love to see characters as well as Rayman and Lloyd in the game.)

5. GENO! GENO! GENO! (cause he deserves it.)

-no complaints there.

-so Ridley, Porky, Rayquazza, Meta-Ridley, Bowser, Wario, Ganon, and Petey don't count?

-tsk. tsk. Sonic is only in so people can see him fight Mario. don't worry- the Sonic cast will not take over Smash.

-you DARE not mention Megaman? shame.

-YES.YES.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think there are some questions characters need to answer before we can determine whether or not they could be playable characters.

1. Is the character physically designed to fight?

2. Does the character have a lot of potential beyond generic moves?

3. Would the character be practical as a playable character?

4. Does the character have experience with violence?

For example, Animal Crossing characters:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No

Another example, Nintendogs:
1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No

What about the retro characters he considered before he chose the Ice Climbers to represent the Famicom in Melee?

Balloon Fighter
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
4. Yes

Bubbles
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
4. Yes

Excitebike
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
4. Yes

Urban Champion
1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes

I remember Sakurai telling some fan that Mr. Saturn cannot be playable because he has no arms. So, lets do Mr. Saturn.
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No

It seems to me that if a character answered "no" to at least one question, that character isn't very likely going to be playable.

 

[Big-Cat]

long list

To be honest, if you were to go out and ask people about most of the characters you listed as well known such as meta Knight and Dedede, I doubt most would know who they are. At least in the United States, I think most people know more about Call of Duty and Halo than Kirby or Metroid. I've even had one person who never heard of Metroid thinking it was a GTA type game.

 

[Arcadenik]

Kuma, note that I used the words "few", "some", "most", and "all" in my long list. Lets say "few" means about 25%, "some" for 50%, "most" for 75%, and we know what "all" means.

So, maybe about 75% of the population recognize Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede because they were in the Kirby anime.

 

[Big-Cat]

So, maybe about 75% of the population recognize Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede because they were in the Kirby anime.

I still doubt the last two are really that well known. After all, Hoshi no Kirby was a children's anime, and it was dubbed by 4Kids. I don't think a lot of people watched it.

 

[Arcadenik]

But children do play Super Smash Bros., don't they? Teenagers and young adults are not the only ones who play SSB games.

 

[Big-Cat]

But children do play Super Smash Bros., don't they? Teenagers and young adults are not the only ones who play SSB games.

Yes, children play the SSB games, but how many of the characters do they know? The only ones I knew when the first one came out were Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu, and Luigi.

 

[UberMario]

Yes, children play the SSB games, but how many of the characters do they know? The only ones I knew when the first one came out were Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu, and Luigi.

The only character WITHOUT an E-rated game in Brawl is Snake. no one.

 

[Tacel]

The only character WITHOUT an E-rated game in Brawl is Snake.

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess was rated T.

 

[Big-Cat]

The only character WITHOUT an E-rated game in Brawl is Snake.

Zelda, Metroid, Starfox, and Fire Emblem say hi.

 

[Pieman0920]

I don't know if there's a good list of the ESRB's rating, but I'm fairly confident that the Zelda, Metroid, SF, and FE series have all had a E-rated games. He didn't say anything about MGS being the only series that had anything above E.

EDIT: Snake does have a E rated game. Metal Gear Solid for the Game Boy Color.

 

[UberMario]

Zelda, Metroid, Starfox, and Fire Emblem say hi.

Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Star Fox
Fire Emblem

They say hi to you too.

To Pieman: I thought that game was considered non-canon.

EDIT:Yep that game is canon too.

 

[Arcadenik]

Yes, children play the SSB games, but how many of the characters do they know? The only ones I knew when the first one came out were Mario, Link, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu, and Luigi.

When the first SSB game came out in 1999, the only characters I recognized immediately were:

Mario - from SMB 1-3, SMW, SM64, and Mario spin-off games

Donkey Kong - from DKC 1-3 and Mario spin-off games

Link - from SNES Zelda and Zelda 64

Samus - from Super Metroid

Yoshi - from SMW 1-2, Yoshi's Story, and Mario spin-off games

Kirby - from Kirby's Dream Land and Kirby Super Star

Fox - from Star Fox 64

Pikachu - from the anime

Luigi - from SMB 1-3, SMW, and Mario spin-off games

Jigglypuff - from the anime

The only characters I did not recognize were Ness and Captain Falcon because their games were not advertised as much compared to most games I mentioned above.

Fast forward to Melee in 2001... the only characters I recognized were:

Bowser - from SMB 1 & 3, SMW, SM64, Paper Mario, and Mario spin-off games

Peach - from SMB 1-3, SMW, SM64, Paper Mario, and Mario spin-off games

Zelda - from SNES Zelda and Zelda 64

Sheik - from Zelda 64

Mewtwo - from the first Pokemon movie

Dr. Mario - from Dr. Mario, Tetris & Dr. Mario, and Dr. Mario 64, plus the fact he is Mario in a doctor outfit

Ganondorf - from Zelda 64

Falco - from Star Fox 64

Young Link - from Zelda 64 and Zelda Gaiden

Pichu - from the Pichu Bros. short plus the fact it looks like a baby Pikachu

The only Melee newcomers I did not recognize immediately were Ice Climbers, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, and Roy. They were either retro or Japan-only.

Thanks to the Internet, I recognized all the characters in Brawl... but if there were no Internet and the only information we get are from the media and the video game stores, the characters who probably would not be recognized immediately are Pit, R.O.B., and Lucas.

 

[UberMario]

When the first SSB game came out in 1999, the only characters I recognized immediately were:

LOL, the "only" characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Star Fox
Fire Emblem

They say hi to you too.

To Pieman: I thought that game was considered non-canon.

EDIT:Yep that game is canon too.

Sorry, I misinterpreted that as MGS being the only series in Brawl to have a non-E rated game.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I doubt most of the characters in Smash are really that recognizable to the casual crowd who has never played a Nintendo game.

 

[UberMario]

Sorry, I misinterpreted that as MGS being the only series in Brawl to have a non-E rated game.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I doubt most of the characters in Smash are really that recognizable to the casual crowd who has never played a Nintendo game.

Should you really be playing Smash Bros. if you've never played a Nintendo game before?

 

[Big-Cat]

Should you really be playing Smash Bros. if you've never played a Nintendo game before?

Good question. However, you may have people that look at it from a gameplay perspective. However, don't count on that from hardcore fighting game players.

 

[UberMario]

Good question. However, you may have people that look at it from a gameplay perspective. However, don't count on that from hardcore fighting game players.

I know, but it just screams references of other games. And how many people have never played a Mario game at any point whatsoever? I just can't imagine a non-Nintendo fan liking exclusively Smash Bros. (even if it IS one of the best series in all of "Videogamedom."

 

[lordvaati]

Sorry, I misinterpreted that as MGS being the only series in Brawl to have a non-E rated game.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I doubt most of the characters in Smash are really that recognizable to the casual crowd who has never played a Nintendo game.

is it even possible to have NEVER played a Nintendo game?

 

[Big-Cat]

I know, but it just screams references of other games. And how many people have never played a Mario game at any point whatsoever? I just can't imagine a non-Nintendo fan liking exclusively Smash Bros. (even if it IS one of the best series in all of "Videogamedom."

Saying it's one of the best is debateable. Sure it has good sales and good reviews, but it can't seem to be taken seriously because of the severe imbalance in Brawl, slow gameplay, and lack of hitstun.

 

[Starphoenix]

Should you really be playing Smash Bros. if you've never played a Nintendo game before?

It doesn't really matter whether you know who the characters are or not, or whether you played a Nintendo game before. It is not just for the Nintendo fanboys, Sakurai made well and sure Brawl was a game anyone can pick up.

The only games a child would probably be most familiar with are Mario and Pokémon, maybe Zelda. Probably why they get the most PCs outside of the sales factor. I have talked to several people who are not Nintendo fanboys but enjoy Brawl and the diverse characters, a couple of them even played Melee; some thought Mewtwo and Roy were still in the game, one even thought Ike was Roy. lol

 

[Tacel]

Should you really be playing Smash Bros. if you've never played a Nintendo game before?

Probably not, but that wouldn't stop them.
But if that person were to pick a character that they like, they would probably buy the game that they are from.
I'd say that it's a good way to start playing Nintendo games.

 

[Arcadenik]

KumaOso, if Brawl is not taken seriously over these reasons, just who are not taking Brawl seriously? Tournament players who care about wavedashing and whatever else Melee had.

 

[UberMario]

Saying it's one of the best is debateable. Sure it has good sales and good reviews, but it can't seem to be taken seriously because of the severe imbalance in Brawl, slow gameplay, and lack of hitstun.

I didn't just refer to Brawl, I was refering to the whole series.

To TAL and Star: I just think it's a strange series to get introduced to the world of Nintendo with.

 

[Big-Cat]

KumaOso, if Brawl is not taken seriously over these reasons, just who are not taking Brawl seriously? Tournament players who care about wavedashing and whatever else Melee had.

Who else takes Brawl seriously?

 

[Tacel]

Who else takes Brawl seriously?

What do you mean by "seriously"?

 

[UberMario]

What do you mean by "seriously"?

Someone who only plays to win and earn money and is completely indifferent to the feelings of the people he has defeated/lost to.

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I would like Sheik to be given a few improvements, please! Here's my idea: mid-tier in attack power, middleweight, and to replace those needles with throwing knives that do more damage and occaisionally poison the victim.

Any opinions? Sheik is AWESOME, isn't she?!

Edit: Do you guys know what would be good for Smash 4? Give up? Banning Final Fantasy characters from that game! Why is it popular, exactly?

 

[UberMario]

Any opinions? Sheik is AWESOME, isn't she?!

TRAITOR! You're supposed to be a Mario!

On a more relevant note, who want's to see pipes return in SSB4?

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

I didn't know you wanted my avatar to stay Mario. I'm sorry, I'll change it back.

 

[UberMario]

I didn't know you wanted my avatar to stay Mario. I'm sorry, I'll change it back.

LOL it was a joke dude. (But I like that avatar better than the Shiek one anyway)

 

[Mario the Jumpman]

No one gave me an explaination for my Final Fantasy question yet. I knew it was overrated.