Official Snake Q&A Area

[Ken Neth]

For me, it's just used as a mix up. I'm normally super aggressive so if I mix up a dash dance into my approach I can bait spot dodges or rolls from some people. I don't use it that much at all, but it can mess up people's spacing and timing.

 

[DeLux]

You can use dash dance to augment the spacing of your shield coming out of dash. If you realize that you can't interrupt dash with shield as both a function of both distance and time, using a dash dance trades a few frames of startup before shield comes out (about 2 to x number) against being able to bring up shield much earlier in terms of spacing. In this regard it makes someone more likely to PS move in situations where an opponent is trying to bait them into running into a dash punishing hitbox.

 

[Kuro~]

You can use dash dance to augment the spacing of your shield coming out of dash. If you realize that you can't interrupt dash with shield as both a function of both distance and time, using a dash dance trades a few frames of startup before shield comes out (about 2 to x number) against being able to bring up shield much earlier in terms of spacing. In this regard it makes someone more likely to PS move in situations where an opponent is trying to bait them into running into a dash punishing hitbox.

I <3 you lux hahaha.

 

[DeLux]

I mean, I probably dash dance more than anyone in brawl, soooooooooooooo I've had to think of a few uses for it

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The funny thing is dash dancing with ice climbers if that is the character you use it for. Twice the chance for tripping.

 

[Crackle]

My friend would play a legit Sheik/Fox and both characters he used would profit greatly from his love for offensive play with dash dance mix-ins. Sheik's DACUS from dash dance is the most annoying thing to try and react to, and it baits shield like a ****er.

The way he would play offensively, I came to realize, was:
1) Dash Dance outside Snake's range to crack on his nerves of steel
2a) Did Snake do an ftilt? Punish with something
2b) Did Snake shield? Run over. Does he spotdodge grab? Then run past him and pivot grab.
2c) Did Snake pull a grenade? Same rules apply as shield.

What began to throw him off when I realized this pattern was that I began grenade-grabbing him. Still, the reaction time to Sheik is sheer awful, and when he mixed in airdodging behind me the dash dance really grated on the nerves in tournament bracket or U-MAD friendlies.

Snake's DACUS might have some potential with a dash dance. It'd be kinda screwy to do a dash-dance DACUS one or two times with unpredictable timing...then change it up and do a dash dance for no apparent reason every once in a while.

TL;DR: dash dance is a decent mode of baiting

 

[Ralph Cecil]

This might seem like a silly question, but what is the best way to punish MK's glide attack on shield? Every time someone does it I can never seem to punish it, and usually I feel like i'm put in a bad position. D=

 

[etecoon]

I haven't played this matchup much in a long time but I'd think you'd be better off trying to utilt or dash attack him first, perfectly executed glide attack is -3 on block so it's not actually punishable for snake unless you powershield it or the MK does it wrong. I know as marth I just fsmash or bair his glides, shielding gives him some other gay mixups too(land behind and grab etc)

not sure if either of those would work but otherwise I'd just avoid the situation, reverse pull a nade when he's gliding at you and GTFO

aside from that most MK's habitually cover blocked glide attacks with something you can **** them for if you hard read it, what is he doing after, dsmash, another SL, nado, roll, spot dodge?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

aweyidtbhfkh I hate having to avoid things that seem like they should be punishable. T_T

 

[Kuro~]

This might seem like a silly question, but what is the best way to punish MK's glide attack on shield? Every time someone does it I can never seem to punish it, and usually I feel like i'm put in a bad position. D=

Pivot grab it.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Does that legitimately beat it/out range it? That just seems unlikely to me. o-o Also I usually face this problem at the ledge where I don't have too much room. D=

 

[Attila_]

depends on the spacing. if he hits your shield up high, you can grab/jab --> utilt or whatever, but if its low on shield, or far away, you're better off not trying to punish.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

That's disheartening. ;(

 

[luxingo]

Hi Crackle.

In regards to jab cancelling:

Mario/ZSS/Snake - first 2 hits can be used over and over against shield to guarantee(???) not getting shield grabbed

Is this true?

 

[Crackle]

I believe so. Can't Falco do that as well?

 

[luxingo]

I don't know. I'm just saying, how definite is it?

You put those three question marks, so it seemed like you weren't 100% sure.

 

[Crackle]

I wasn't 100% sure because I encountered players doing that tactic against shield when caught in front of it, and it seemed to work perfectly to stop grab, but there still may be correctly timed frames in which grab will come out and get you.

I was told Snake's first two jabs on shield are ungrabbable if ducked and repeated. Mario's and Lucas's are definitely ungrabbable. I'm pretty damn sure.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hey, hey, I'm the frame expert here. :|

(I doubt Crackle's claim is true tbh, I'll check it out later)

 

[luxingo]

Hey, hey, I'm the frame expert here. :|

(I doubt Crackle's claim is true tbh, I'll check it out later)

Patiently awaiting your results, Mr Frame Expert.

 

[Crackle]

Agreed. I'd love to know. The characters of impact to me are Snake&Falco&Mario. I haven't been using the jabs for that use myself though. Should have considered picking it up.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Okay!

The data says that on shield, the opponent has about 28 frames to punish before the hitbox of jab 1 comes out transitioning from jab 2.

Block advantage from jab 1 > jab 2 is about -5 (for anyone who's interested).

 

[luxingo]

Okay!

The data says that on shield, the opponent has about 28 frames to punish before the hitbox of jab 1 comes out transitioning from jab 2.

Block advantage from jab 1 > jab 2 is about -5 (for anyone who's interested).

Aren't we (that is, Crackle and me) talking about jab 1 to jab 1 though?

5 is how many frames they have when they can do something out of shield, right? So other than UpB OoS, there aren't any moves that'll beat jab 2 from shield, right?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Aren't we (that is, Crackle and me) talking about jab 1 to jab 1 though?

5 is how many frames they have when they can do something out of shield, right? So other than UpB OoS, there aren't any moves that'll beat jab 2 from shield, right?

KNOW

You were talking about jab 1 > jab 2 > repeat.

I was told Snake's first two jabs on shield are ungrabbable if ducked and repeated. Mario's and Lucas's are definitely ungrabbable. I'm pretty damn sure.

Or at least I think so anyway.

-5 is the absolute MAXIMUM amount of disadvantage, so uh, I guess grabbing works if it's frame perfect (grab armor on the 6'th frame with most characters, unless you're like... Zelda or something ), also most up B's have intangibility (MK/10) and would probably work (unless you're like... Zelda or something ).

Also power shielding the first jab and doing something between the jab also would work.

 

[Bonds]

If we jab someone off of a battlefield platform, is it possible to drop down to the ground and jab reset them before they can act? Assuming it's a character that can't tech the edge slip, of course. I like getting fsmash kills at 40%

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Okay, I'm going to completely wing this jab1 -> jab1 on shield with Snake by using formulas instead of turning my wii on.

Hitlag can be ignored since its the same for both characters. Snake's jab will induce one frame of shield stun (damage/3). Attack comes out on frame 3 and with IASA the jab would last 15 frames. In order to jab1 -> jab1 you need to crouch for at least one frame in between. And the fastest grab I recall is 6 frames.

1 - Jab1
2 -
3 - hitbox out
4 - Single frame of shield stun
5 - grab started
6 -
7 -
8 -
9 -
11 - grab comes out
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 -
16 - Crouch
17 - Jab1
18 -
19 - Hitbox out

Assuming I did this correctly such as my assumption that shieldstun activates the moment hitlag is over with, then even tether grabs can punish Snake for jab1 -> jab1 on shield except samus who has the slowest grab in the game.

Edit: Although, I am interested in Bonds idea since it would be quite beneficial to do that, so I guess I am turning my wii on anyway. I was right about that. Jab1 -> jab1 on shield can be grabbed by everyone except samus. Although, samus could just drop shield and jab herself. Atlhough, this is all like frame perfect stuff.

 

[Attila_]

iirc you cant cancel jab 2 to anything else except jab 3.

 

[Kuro~]

Snakes grab is 10 frames

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Hey Aero, when exactly does an attack need to connect before it can trigger a forced get-up?

@Bonds: No, you cannot jab in time to get a forced get-up. You can however get a free move like Utilt or Ftilt if you can do it perfectly.

@Shmot: I never realized that. Jab2 is so bad compared to his first jab. Is there ever a time to consider using jab2 except when passing go to collect on jab3? lo

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It needs to connect during the animation that happens when you fail a tech. I think if you get hit while lying on the ground, you stay on the ground (iirc).

Edit: Kuro, no, his standing hits on 8-9, dash is 11-12, turn is 9-10.

 

[Crackle]

Is Boost Grab an effective alternative (opponent expects ftilt) to ftilting? I'm pretty sure Shu does it, maybe also MVD.

Also, who in their right mind can shield grab between Snake's jab 1 and jab 2? You'd have to (1) realize it's jab 1 (2) immediately grab.
To this day I thought that jab1 and 2 were viable on shield as a "go away", but it has never appealed to actually use for Snake. Guess that's why.
Those glasses really work! Still, Mario and Lucas, their jab1&2 on shield are legit. I tell no lie!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Also, who in their right mind can shield grab between Snake's jab 1 and jab 2? You'd have to (1) realize it's jab 1 (2) immediately grab.
To this day I thought that jab1 and 2 were viable on shield as a "go away", but it has never appealed to actually use for Snake. Guess that's why.

With real matches, a lot of random things occur. Some of it is intentional while the rest can be player mistakes. The fact that someone could grab between snake's jab1 and jab2 means you should still consider it as possible. Its just a question of will it happen by mistake more often than it is intentional.

Say someone might be trying to jump forward air out of shield, but you happen to hit their shield just before they hit the jump button. You both go into hitlag from jab1, then the jump button is pressed during hitlag. But then forward + attack input is made afterwards while still in the hitlag. They just buffered a grab and the jump input was overwritten and never comes out. So, you just buffered a grab by mistake and grab snake after jab1.

This is a really common situation for me in melee. I will attempt to wave dash back out of shield and was a tad too slow. Someone hits my shield putting me into hitlag, my jump gets completely lost in the hitlag, and I end up spot dodging or rolling instead since the control stick input was the last thing I did.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've had people grab me through lots of stranger things than that, but basically everything Xeylode said. lol

 

[Fuujin]

So...



Why are snakes hitboxes so big?



give me the tea guys.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Because he has long arms and legs.

 

[Attila_]

people also grab in between ftilts all the time. even though you have 6 frames (iirc) to do so.

i mostly condition people that if i run at them, its a dash attack, then swap that with a boost grab at high percent to get a tech chase. although boost grab is a good alternative for walk up ftilt, since most people will shield preemptively.
t

 

[luxingo]

Those glasses really work!

lol what?

Do people keep their C4 on the moving platform of Smashville?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

why would you put the c4 anywhere else?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@Luxingo: Moving C4 is too good.
@Aero: There are alternative uses. {hyperlinked}

 

[Fuujin]

Why did you ignore my question xeyload?

@aero, what about Ganon then?!?!?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Aero gave a more than satisfactory answer in my opinion.