Official Snake Q&A Area

[ViperGold42]

anyone got any tips on how to practice if you're by yourself with Snake. need help improving him back to his former glory.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Tech chase the computers with down throw.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Wifi o-o

I don't really feel like i'm getting anything out of it unless i'm playing another person.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've been thinking about that for a long time on what is the best way to improve by yourself.

The first thing that comes to mind when playing a new character for the first time is simply using them. Playing against the CPU at this level is completely fine. You want to build up muscle memory and generally get some experience for the character. Get a feel for their limits and maybe build up a few ideas of what you can do.

But after this step, I think you need some insight on how other characters interact with your own. I doubt you can reasonably train yourself alone and ignore that human vs human action. The only way I can see solving that problem on your own is do some serious video analysis or theory-crafting and how to handle different situations with your character.

Even then, certain things simply will not come to mind until you have been put into that situation. Say I get DownB spiked by DK into the ground? First thing that comes to mind from playing the CPU is mash out as quickly as possible, right? Well, if you ever have this happen to you in an actual match, you might have seen a DK full hop over you and Dair you as you mashed out into the air. Opps. That is not something I would have thought of on my own without first seeing it happen. The correct response if that happens would be tech afterwards. If this option was not chosen remember to DI DK's attack that will hit me while I'm in the ground.

But, after you gain some experience and material to work with, you need to come up with countermeasures against it. "Okay, this falco grab thing destroys me every match as muc as I try to avoid it. Uhh.... I could platform camp the first 40% or so, and avoid throwing out moves like Ftilt while on the ground." After this, you go and practice it. Then, you rinse and repeat the cycle of get experience, think of countermeasures, practice it.

Certain things I believe can be trained by yourself or against a CPU while other things cannot be duplicated except in match. B-reversals are something you can easily practice on your own. The correct response and muscle memory can be partially integrated while fighting a CPU. Say I fight sonic CPU for awhile, then finally I get grabbed and dthrow. RED FLAG! I need to muscle memory this situation into DI down and tech following up with jab or Ftilt to punish Sonic. But, SDI against Falco's cg -> spike is something you cannot do on your own.

Regarding wifi, its an excellent substitute for gaining that needed experience to get your thoughts going. I think its a horrible medium to practice super seriously unless you have the world's best internet connect. The best use ends up being thinking of concepts and roughly applying it. Okay, I am playing rob and I know I should power shield lasers. Try as I might, wifi is laggy and won't let me, but at least I am trying.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Yeah if I hard a large group of people to play with I probably wouldn't play wifi all too much, but it's just me and usually on average 2 others at best. I don't really feel like playing such a small number of people all the time is healthy lol. I feel like it gives you bad habits. :V

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That probably fits into another category of something to improve on by yourself. There is a ton of stuff you can do without actually playing the game solo. I guess you could try recognizing what habits you might be falling into and making the conscious choices to break those tendencies. Or think up what you might do in place of it.

Well, I dunno for certain. I feel like I'm making this game way more complicated than it needs to be a lot of the time.

 

[ViperGold42]

That probably fits into another category of something to improve on by yourself. There is a ton of stuff you can do without actually playing the game solo. I guess you could try recognizing what habits you might be falling into and making the conscious choices to break those tendencies. Or think up what you might do in place of it.

Well, I dunno for certain. I feel like I'm making this game way more complicated than it needs to be a lot of the time.

not everything is easy Boss. just trying to break those tendencies of pulling a grenade when I don't need too.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

You always need to pull nade out!!!!! D:<

 

[ViperGold42]

You always need to pull nade out!!!!! D:<

well I meant I don't want to be TOO predictiable with it. I sometimes pull one out and get ****ed as it gets blown up and it hits me, and I know Snake can take the hit but come on if its me only getting hit then that nade was in vain.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I was kidding. o-o

 

[Bonds]

Grenades are so absurdly versatile that Ralph's advice isn't even that poor. Don't just do it in your opponent's face though unless you're using them as a panic button in the air.

I find a good rule of thumb for my spacing when I pull nades is always my opponent's dashgrab distance. If you're within it, you should probably resist the urge and do something else.

Referring to the nade advice just now for clarification.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What areas are best for grenade pulls on purpose to get out of stuff?
-DDD cg,
-Falco cg,
-Zelda Usmash (zelda's always follow-up with Usmash -> Usmash on me at low percents)
-Nado? Despite seeing it happen, I am not sure how reliable it is. I keep thinking its only pure luck that you manage to bounce up a bit more than usual to get out of the hit-boxes for enough time to pull a nade. Too lazy to frame advance it.
-Ftilt lock attempt from Sheik
-Marth throws since Fair follow-ups are super common (have to reverse it to get it all the time)

That's all that comes to mind at the moment.

 

[ViperGold42]

Grenades are so absurdly versatile that Ralph's advice isn't even that poor. Don't just do it in your opponent's face though unless you're using them as a panic button in the air.

I find a good rule of thumb for my spacing when I pull nades is always my opponent's dashgrab distance. If you're within it, you should probably resist the urge and do something else.

To be honest, poor response since you've done nothing but troll me with your 2 friends because I asked you a question.

What areas are best for grenade pulls on purpose to get out of stuff?
-DDD cg,
-Falco cg,
-Zelda Usmash (zelda's always follow-up with Usmash -> Usmash on me at low percents)
-Nado? Despite seeing it happen, I am not sure how reliable it is. I keep thinking its only pure luck that you manage to bounce up a bit more than usual to get out of the hit-boxes for enough time to pull a nade. Too lazy to frame advance it.
-Ftilt lock attempt from Sheik
-Marth throws since Fair follow-ups are super common (have to reverse it to get it all the time)

That's all that comes to mind at the moment.

that's a response I was looking for. Thanks so much Boss.

 

[Bonds]

?

I don't troll on smashboards. If you are referring to asking me if I was a fat bat legend, I recall answering your question and attempting to defend your curiosity because I thought it was a valid question, although the way you worded it was slightly rude. I would prefer it if you didn't hold other people's actions against me.

Edit: Xeylode, you can also pull a nade in between hits from moves like pit's upair and sheik's utilt if the hitstun is low enough. those two moves I know for sure you can, and I do (regularly), but there are probably others. If you predict a throw attempt from neutral and have high port, a freshly pulled nade will blow up on some pummels or throw hitboxes, like Mk's dthrow

 

[DeLux]

Are you serious Viper? Name one place Bonds trolled you.

He's trying to help you and he gave you a pretty general rule of thumb that works across the matchup spectrum and you just spit on it because of some perceived negative action towards you? I could see you being upset if he said "You should pull a nade when it's safe" or something that's so esoteric that you can't draw anything from it, but his advice gives you a frame of reference to work off of. If it's bad, judge it off if it works in game or not. Don't call it bad advice because you don't like the person for some arbitrary self created reason.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Gosh, why is this even still a thing.

ViperGold, please stop stirring the pot because you imagine everyone is against you.

No more please, or infraction time.

 

[Okuser]

Gosh, why is this even still a thing.

ViperGold, please stop stirring the pot because you imagine everyone is against you.

No more please, or infraction time.

Just give him the infraction, or a temporary ban.

He randomly started sending me hateful private messages the other day http://i.imgur.com/XWAwP.jpg

the kid is immature and toxic to the community.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm too nice to hand out infractions. /theworstmod

But yeah, report those private messaged please. I'll make sure something is done about it.

 

[-LzR-]

Try to explain to me as simply as possible... How do I use nades? They are to me the hardest thing about the character. When I play against good Snakes the nades are everywhere. I have trouble doing anything with them.

 

[Attila_]

They are hard to use.

All i can advise you to do is practice. Lots and lots.

Start by working out patterns with nades. Like, a fluid way to pull nades do that you know when and where they will blow up. This gives a basis that you can use in matches.

But yeah, good nade usage comes with time.

 

[-LzR-]

All right so I guess I will have to deal with being forever crap using nades with my random Snake I sometimes use when I'm bored
I'll practice anyways.

And when should I not use nades? I tend to just get a nade because I can without knowing if it's safe or not.

 

[Attila_]

Best used when out of range, or when youre sure you'll get hit to trade.

Spam from a distance, cooking them and creating walls to force the approach and pressure.

Pull them lots at high percent, since they force a grab, and most characters don't kill from one of those.

But yeah, strict pocket snakes always have terrible nade games.

 

[ViperGold42]

Gosh, why is this even still a thing.

ViperGold, please stop stirring the pot because you imagine everyone is against you.

No more please, or infraction time.

so he can have his friends troll me and nothing happens?

 

[Ken Neth]

Viper stop being dumb, no one has been tryin to troll you. Stop feeling like everyone is attacking you when it's not like that all.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I find it depends upon a match-up/stage along with what position I am in. You know.. like snake is in the air, on the ledge, on the ground, on a platform, etc. Also depending upon how a person is responding to them.

Here are some ideas to get started:

If you are on the ledge, then jumping onto the stage while doing a turn around nade is helpful mix up. The reverse puts the nade closer to your opponent as you get on stage. Most of the time it gets a trade on a person, but it puts them into the air (or you might land and shield the attack. You have to time it right to make sure a trade will happen. Trying to get on stage when Mario is firing fireballs at you is not usually the best idea. I sort of want to try a ledge jump -> turn around nade, but never tested it out much.

When in recovery (I mean either getting back down or trying to avoid a follow-up attack) reversed nades are really nice to push your momentum in another direction. If you get grabbed by say Marth into a fthrow, then doing a turn-around nade is a nice mix-up instead of jump, airdodge, or attack. Generally, turn-around nade and aiming for a trade is not always a bad idea. Once snake starts getting juggled a bit and you pull out a few turn-around nades and explode them, then your opponent is a bit more wary of directly attacking you out of another attack. If the other player is at higher percents that trade will help a ton.

As for some edgeguarding ideas it depends upon the match-up. Say you are playing a Meta Knight. If you soft toss (hold B, then pull back on the control stick and release B) over the ledge, this creates a bit of a wall between MK and the ledge. The grenade goes up, then falls past below the ledge. If he tries to get onto the stage with a nado or UpB, he might set off the nade if you timed your toss right. Obviously, you wouldn't like to try this on falco because its unlikely he'll hit such a tiny nade with his phantasm.

A couple nade tricks which help counter ledge camping is turning from the player and walking backwards with a nade held, then shield drop -> roll away or shield drop -> walk/away. By doing this, you can drop a nade near the ledge or have it fall below the stage and someone foolish might hit it. Why this works I have no idea, I think its because people focus too much on trying to get to the ledge rather than watching snake. Anyway, another thing is back away from the ledge and go for a medium toss while cooking the nade. This is the best way to time and get nades below the stage at a safe yet close distance. As for pit ledge camping, I have abandoned nades. Instead I will stand away from the ledge where his aerials from below the ledge will not hit me, then rush in and shield. If he comes up with an arrow, I can shield it and grab him. If miss timed, the worst that can happen is I'll roll away or i'll get shield pushed away from his attack. Anyway....

As for the neutral game it really depends upon the match-up. Usually, I would say holding nades with B button held (not dropped and picked up) is the best way to use nades. A soft toss is great for making a wall in front of snake and keeping a nade nearby. A medium toss is great for getting nades onto platforms, spacing aerial approaches or simply getting a nade near someone so snake can box someone in between a nade and himself. Hard toss is nice for hitting close targets. The other benefits from holding a nade with B button held is you can actually have options like grab and you can attack out of a spot dodge or shield drop.

Its really hard to talk about Snake's nade game in any sort of detail. Its usually a lot of on the spot improvising that you really only get with what Attila(shmot) was talking about. Practice, try stuff out, and learn. Probably pay attention to what character you are playing. Fox can fire triple lasers or rapid fire on the ground. Pulling nades out and doing tosses or throws on the ground are likely to explode in his face. He can get nades out, but you risk the projectile hitting him. Some characters have such slow projectiles you can easily cook nades by powershielding the projectiles; Pikachu, luigi, and Mario come to mind.

Oh, and as a random thing if you fall to the ground with a nade pulled, you can land on your own mine by holding shield. Snake ignores the 2 or 4 frame soft/hard landing lag with a nade pulled; zero landing lag if going into a shield option.

 

[Bonds]

For goodness' sake..

?

I don't troll on smashboards. If you are referring to asking me if I was a fat bat legend, I recall answering your question and attempting to defend your curiosity because I thought it was a valid question, although the way you worded it was slightly rude. I would prefer it if you didn't hold other people's actions against me.

@ Viper

You have not countered this nor provided evidence that what you say is true. A large majority of my posts so far have been attempts to develop snake's metagame. Nobody would take me seriously if I just trolled all the time, which is the opposite of what I want. I don't care if you think I troll you, or if you personally don't like me, but acting as you are and dodging my earlier callout is going to earn you (and most likely already has) nothing but disrespect from people that witness that behavior, as evidenced by Okuser's post a few days ago. Please don't do that to yourself.

Xeylode, I agree about the nade thing. Imo, nade usage is really complex at its finest and is better developed through trial and error than reading about or watching it. At least that's how it was for me.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I honestly think Viper is the one trolling. :V

 

[Bonds]

idk if he is, but I don't like people disliking me when all I do is try to help anyway. Old drama conditioning.

 

[Ken Neth]

Bonds everyone else realizes you're only trying to help him and others, so don't worry about that. You should just put him on your ignore list.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Guize, ignore it and don't respond please, because you'll just make it worse by responding.

This goes for Viper too, I don't want to hear another peep about this trolling business in this thread again.

~

Ontopic, Xeylode, that post was amazing. I also had no idea about pulling a grenade completely ignoring the landing lag penalty! Amazing information, thanks!

 

[Bonds]

Yessir.

It does ignore the landing lag, which is why you can powershield mines with a nade in hand I believe. You still have to deal with the lag from pulling a nade, but your defensive options come out faster as well since there's no landing lag, so you can even spotdodge grabs if you can tell when they're coming. I'm not really a fan of spotdodges tbh, but I have an exception for that.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I also think False figured out that when can also land and then shield onto DK's down-b with a grenade in hand.

 

[Attila_]

On that note though, even if you land laglessly, you have to consider what you can do next.

It forces you to shield/spotdodge/roll, which all have lag.

So landing with a nade is technically lagless, it really isn't in reality.

Good occasionally, but nothing amazing.

 

[ViperGold42]

On that note though, even if you land laglessly, you have to consider what you can do next.

It forces you to shield/spotdodge/roll, which all have lag.

So landing with a nade is technically lagless, it really isn't in reality.

Good occasionally, but nothing amazing.

so should I b reverse that on land so I won't get hit as I come close to the gorund

 

[Ralph Cecil]

What's Snake's best option against WoP abusers? o-o I go against them and it feels like i'm either taking a stock's worth of damage trying to challenge it or i'm doing nothing, because they can just dance around and avoid grenades from a distance. :V It just feels like a hopeless situation for me.

 

[Bonds]

if by WoP, you mean wall of pain, I don't know.. I think the best answer is just to avoid getting in situations where you get wall of pained. You should be using grenades to bait a response rather than just blowing them up imo. If you get them to jump, just move below them, and then they're in a really bad position above snake

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Yeah I did, and I feel like I do try that when straight up camping doesn't work. D= I'l probably just have to play against it more to get used to it, but it's so frustrating right now. >_<

 

[Ken Neth]

If you know it's coming you can dash in, power shield the last hit before they land on the ground again and punish. Against a wolf for example, that's one of the most effective ways to deal with his wall of bairs. If you can't get the power shield it makes it so much harder to get around.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Does bair really last so long that they can't use their second jump? o-o

 

[Ken Neth]

If you bait them into using their second jump. Or if they're doing retreating bairs they'll most likely throw a bair out as they're landing that will cover their landing. And then depending on the player people will use their second jump to continue their wall as a mix up.