Official Snake Q&A Area

[Attila_]

nikita scenario does not exist.

at no point does ftilt, or the threat of ftilt, stop an approach. rain uses nado to cut through snakes options, and, hoping for a shield poke but not getting one, gets punished. if he played safe and retreated, he'd have gone unpunished. notice that shuu gets punished a few times for untimely ftilts, although he only gets punished for retreating pivot grab once, and that was only because he tripped over.

threat of ftilt doesnt force nado; if rain was sure that sure shuu was going to ftilt, he'd approach with a retreating fair, which beats snakes ftilt in both range and priority.

waiting =/= waiting for a pivot grab.

roll stuff is not guaranteed. best use jab if he's in that zone and you're expecting a roll.

i never said that i was as good as top us/japanese players, because i know that i am not. i am, however, better than the average us player. yes.

and perhaps people are sticking up for me because they agree with me, no? dont you think that if everyone disagrees with you, you might be doing it wrong?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I sort of want a collective opinion on something. Since I have been playing melee more often, I have come to realize that I should be putting a lot more time into perfecting the stuff I consider "impossible" or "extremely hard to do". I felt it would be impossible to always SDI fox's Uair, SDI out of Fox's Dair, or power shield falco's lasers. So, I never really got around to putting effort into really learning.

That sort of thinking only limits yourself. Now, what sort of things could snakes strive to achieve? I recall SuSa putting emphasis on trying to react to dthrow tech chases rather than prediction. I'm probably putting another limiter on myself by saying I disagree we can react to everyone, but there should be certain characters we can most definitely tech chase on reaction. Perhaps, I'm living in the past and everyone has been doing this, but I swear most matches I see hard predictions being made regarding snake's tech chasing rather than reacting.

For example, the opponent sits there and a snake suddenly puts up shield or will dash forward, then shield. That's a prediction, not really a reaction.

 

[Kuro~]

Theoretically we can react as far as tech chasing goes since shield is 1 frame and grab is 6. It just depends on the data of the options of said character.

Like wario is extremely easy to react to. So is pit imo.

As far as sdi/powershielding that's never been on my backburner. It's something i feel can give u quite an edge over your opponent.

 

[Mike2]

I have to go for reads because my reaction time is bunz >.< Not sure to what extent I can train that.

And I love practicing technical stuff so I'm all for that. Recently I was practicing the banana infinite. There is a lot more practical stuff to practice but not really sure how I would go about that since you need two people. You can practice it in matches, but is that really enough time to master something like SDI'ing foxes Uair? For this reason I like the idea of an offline training partner. Someone you can practice with outside of fests/tournaments to help each other get better at random technical stuff/discovering new things and options. It needs to be someone whos willing to go through these tedius processes of learning these things/practice sessions. Sadly I don't think I know anyone who's wants to do that.

My large project or main goal right now is getting in the habit of buffering everything. Which can be technical I guess. I feel like if I master this I can still be fast even with average reaction time at best.

 

[Attila_]

I spent heaps of time practicing Sdi and it really paid off. The window for Sdi in melee is much smaller though, so you need to be more precise.

I think tech chasing on reaction is impossible against most characters. Anyone who's initial getup attack hit hits snake forces a shield, since you can't react to the first hit. And those that roll far also can't be done on reaction.

So who does that leave?

 

[B.A.M.]

You do know that retreating fair takes longer to come out than ftilt1 right? and if its mistimed as he has to do retreating fair BEFORE ftilt comes out and hope snake moves his hitbox towards him in that time frame, then ftilt 2 wins. Nado comes out in 10 frames which is close to instant retreating fair frames. It is safer do to the clanking ability than fair is. especially vs nado. Rain is nadoing becuz he keeps catching him attempting to space ftilt (if you watch the kakera matches he spaces the SAME exact way, dash back turn and ftilt, only in rain match he does without nades). Heck you even said it in your own previous post as to nado being the reason spacing ftilt doesnt work. Then i refer to Shu starting to bait it out and youre saying that Rain was never doing nado with that intention, and that he was just throwing it out just because? Come on now. Youre not even staying consistent in your own argument.

yes the roll stuff isnt work in every scenario due to different timings, however it a myriad of scenarios snake comes out on top moreso. What you are arguing is like stating ZSS uair frame trap isnt guaranteed on MK. There is ways he can AD and punish before the next uair comes out but he has to AD early for the 1st ZSS uair in order to be in advantage, so early that its reactable. If MK hasnt rolled by the time you input ftilt, chances are you are coming out on top. The frame data checks out. Add the spacing required and extra frames to mount an offense and it becomes in snakes favor. Seriously, just think about what you yourself said, if MK rolls on ftilt1 one hes okay AS LONG AS HE DOESNT ATTACK. So he sits in shield vs a multi hitting ftilt or jab or even a pivot grab mix up like bizkit does on *surprise* M2k, the very guy you tested this with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26l_8-6rA14#t=2m54s

A ton of top snakes space like this once they have nades out. Im not saying anything crazy or mindblowing. Check Razer, any japanese pro snake, Havok, Bizkit, MVD, or Ally vids. they use nades and throw out ftilt to fill up space.

Lastly, New England Nikita. Have you never heard that term before? There are Snakes that use Nikita dude. Havok, Bizkit, MVD being the most prominent ones. So Iono what you are talking about in terms of Nikita scenarios dont exist.

EDIT: Yeah I do agree that tech chasing on reaction is quite hard unless some option is limited due to the edge or some explosive. Some GUAs though only beat out snakes jab if they time it perfectly like MK. If MK mistimes GUA by a frame ( which is possible because u cant buffer GUA) and you jab cancel correctly then you can PS it. However I do believe with proper reactions, you can at the very LEAST end up pressuring an opponent with jab ftilt1 on shield which will usually lead into free damage. A ton of good snakes have been very adept with their ftilt traps on shield. So I think sometimes just going for that option is good rather than all or nothing.

 

[Haze~]

Snake can drop b-air Marths up-b which hurts him alot just fyi, just don't try it out in important matches lol

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Snake can drop b-air Marths up-b which hurts him alot just fyi, just don't try it out in important matches lol

it's good to do it when you are at like 150+ and marths is at 50 and you toss him off stage. I've won matches with it. You can either do it form the ledge or run off bair. Just don't fastfall

 

[Attila_]

sick of replying to BAM. its getting nowhere.

if a character's getup attack attacks towards first, then at best, you can limit their options to stay/attack (punishable on shield) or roll (punishable) on reaction. unfortunately this is as good as it gets here. chases on everyone else could probably be improved, though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only limitation is really rolls that go too far away.

But, reacting to attack, stand, and rolls should be possible. In melee, I am always surprised at how well I manage to react to things and the same for a lot of other people. If you do it enough and focus on the character, then building up speed becomes possible and you eventually allow your built-in memory to do the speed for you after you notice a key animation.

Stand and attack more or less have the same animation for most characters. Shielding easily covers both of those options because you can grab if you do notice being hit on shield and grab anyway if your not hit on shield. I think you should be able to react in 10-11 frames of the animation, then within the next 5 frames execute an action such as grab. Which takes then takes a further 8 frames. the shortest animation is 30 frames for a character.

The only issue is with rolls. Snake is too slow to really to much about that.

 

[PEACE7]

How do you guys deal with a planking rob?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I personally just try to camp back, and fail horribly. T_T If it's on some stage like Lylat though, it's a bit easier for me.

 

[Kuro~]

How do you guys deal with a planking rob?

Use platforms to help you. Soft lob greanades up and right over the ledge. C4.u can shield grab upair if he even ****s up slightly. Shield lasers on reaction. The thing has kinda silly start-up and an obvious visual cue.

 

[SinisterB]

Hi there Snakes, how long do your nades specifically last?

I've always just felt them out and i'm fine with that, but for the sake of clearing it up i'd like to know.


Always thought it was 4 or 5 seconds.

 

[PEACE7]

Same here at ralph lol

And alright ill try that Kuro thanks nigg

 

[F A N G]

Hi there Snakes, how long do your nades specifically last?

I've always just felt them out and i'm fine with that, but for the sake of clearing it up i'd like to know.


Always thought it was 4 or 5 seconds.

One-one thousand, Two-own thousand, Three-one thousand, FOUR

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It was not quite three seconds, but you can round it to three seconds. I think the actual time was 2.95 or close to it.

 

[Kuro~]

So i just want to make sure so ik 100% what's the advantage of ftilt1 on shield IF you choose to not follow it up at all with ftilt 2.

 

[Jrugs]

How do you guys deal with a planking rob?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

How does that power shielding thing work when you sticky someone. I think Ran- posted something about it, and I don't know how to do it consistently.

 

[PEACE7]

Someone break down the gameandwatch mu for me pleaseeeeee

 

[Attila_]

- Lots of high lob grenades.
- ftilt2 is never safe in shield
- actively avoid cqc
- avoid air completely; gw arguably juggles us the hardest
- nades don't help you recover
- utilt should trade with his bair to kill
- uair can trade with dair if your timing is amazing
- getting him off the ledge is largely impossible
- watch out for lag less smashes
- don't recover into him

 

[Bonds]

How does that power shielding thing work when you sticky someone. I think Ran- posted something about it, and I don't know how to do it consistently.

hold shield after your detonation animation starts, it will happen automatically

Also for the G&W matchup, you can throw nades into his back airs if he tries to space you on the ground with it. Pivot grab beats his dair pretty handily as well as long as you time it to get him before he actually lands.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

- don't recover into him

Do you think this is an option against other characters. FF air dodge towards them or attempting to b-reversal in the air to land behind an opponent. I can't really think of any reason why certain characters cannot cover such options. I guess its more of a mix-up than anything hoping they mess up.

 

[Attila_]

Some characters don't cover the cross up well, given how few frames vulnerability there is after an airdodge.

Not something to rely on, but often useful in certain mus.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

hold shield after your detonation animation starts, it will happen automatically

Also for the G&W matchup, you can throw nades into his back airs if he tries to space you on the ground with it. Pivot grab beats his dair pretty handily as well as long as you time it to get him before he actually lands.

Yeah I tried that and it didn't happen conistently. T_T

 

[PEACE7]

- Lots of high lob grenades.
- ftilt2 is never safe in shield
- actively avoid cqc
- avoid air completely; gw arguably juggles us the hardest
- nades don't help you recover
- utilt should trade with his bair to kill
- uair can trade with dair if your timing is amazing
- getting him off the ledge is largely impossible
- watch out for lag less smashes
- don't recover into him

Yeee this is awesome help, and thanks for telling me to stay off the air i would of gotten wrecked, thanks for the help man.

Also for the G&W matchup, you can throw nades into his back airs if he tries to space you on the ground with it. Pivot grab beats his dair pretty handily as well as long as you time it to get him before he actually lands.

Good to know about the pivot grabs beating his dair since so many of them like to spam that move.

 

[False]

oh **** our pivot grab beats his dair? hype!

 

[Attila_]

Surely this is a joke.

Our pivot isn't that broken!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Spoiler

It's pretty disjointed. If you could somehow space it right, you could grab quite a lot of whacky things.

 

[Bonds]

Yeah I tried that and it didn't happen conistently. T_T

This may seem like a silly question, but it was on your opponent and not you wasn't it? Snake can't powershield it if it's on him. I'm not sure what else your problem might be, just try different distances in training mode until you find the right spot.

On the subject of our pivot grab, I actually think IPG is better than up tilt as an anti air. The grab box only comes out 3 frames later and it ends on frame 30 instead of utilt's 38, so it isn't as punishable on whiff and it also has absurd disjoint. Plus, the reward for a tech chase is much higher than just staling our utilt.

 

[Kuro~]

Spoiler

It's pretty disjointed. If you could somehow space it right, you could grab quite a lot of whacky things.

Wow. That's really strong. And don't forget, if ppl are in the air it gets a vertical range boost( or some kind of range variation). Which is why pivot grab is one of the best anti-airs for a bunch of characters and why you get those wdf hax range moments lol.

 

[Attila_]

Wow. That's really strong. And don't forget, if ppl are in the air it gets a vertical range boost( or some kind of range variation). Which is why pivot grab is one of the best anti-airs for a bunch of characters and why you get those wdf hax range moments lol.

could someone explain this please?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I'm assuming that means it works like how our first hit of f-tilt works if someone is in the air.

 

[Kuro~]

Idk how to explain it but pivot grabs get inherently better(either by internal mechanics or a range variation) against aerial opponents. That's why every time there's a jaw-dropping grab and your like "brawl is dumb...." they were in the air...not grounded. Grounded it's much more rare for those things to happen. Snakes GPG is great though so it can happen both ways.

Something i read somewhere on here.

 

[Attila_]

pics or gtfo

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Snake's hitboxes shouldn't change as far as I know. There is different flags which tell if a hitbox will hit grounded or aerial targets. But all of snake's grabs code for both. Yoshi has ones which code differently.

 

[Bonds]

I forgot to mention that it's extremely hard to pivot grab the dair. I was testing against someone who wasn't spacing it quite right >_> It's possible, but it isn't really worth the risk unless you're under a platform. Better to just ftilt his landing unless you're platform-safe imo

I still think it's generally a better anti-air though, especially against characters that're easy to chase.

 

[Kuro~]

pics or gtfo

I don't need pics when there's hundreds of instances that support it.

Snake's hitboxes shouldn't change as far as I know. There is different flags which tell if a hitbox will hit grounded or aerial targets. But all of snake's grabs code for both. Yoshi has ones which code differently.

Ya i didn't think the hitbox would change either but there is def an increase in range whether it be due how hurtbox vs hitbox works and people hurtboxes are just more exposed in the air or your flag stuff all ik is that with snake, pit, and marth for sure GPG gets a ridiculous boost in reach against aerial opponents. Iirc so do ice climbers cuz they can grab ppl from ridiculous vertical hights with IPG.

 

[Attila_]

I know range increases horizontally, but don't think it would vertically.

Espc not enough to grab the massive disjoint on gw dair. Works from the side if he misses though.