Official Snake Q&A Area

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Nope, but now that you made me think about the move I wanted to look into it a bit more.

This is like the 2nd-3rd frame the hitbox is out. It does alter momentum somehow, but I'll look it up a bit more exactly how much it does.

 

[Bonds]

Does anybody use Fair on purpose and on a regular basis?

Fair is fun for offstage and landing mixups, but not much else. personally, I like to jump offstage with my back to my opponent and start a fair. Most people will think you're going to bair them and airdodge through you right into the spike because of bair's long hitbox, but it probably won't work more than once against a competent opponent

 

[Attila_]

If it alters momentum positively, that would be most interesting. Don't think I've ever noticed it work well though, except it gives an upwards boost out of cypher.

I use it deliberately sometimes; namely if recovering and mk is just out his uair range and we're offstage. Sometimes used when recovering if the spacing is right while I'm invisible for the start up (in between being in the out of screen bubble and being onscreen). And used to punish an obvious double banana pull offstage by Diddy.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Thank you for your insight, but this isn't quite what I was looking for. What I meant by my question was more along the lines of, "How do we pressure him with our projectiles into getting grabbed?," although I understand how I didn't give that impression.

i dont think that's a thing we can do to olimar lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I forgot to reply to that. This is simply a little bit of theory from me about Olimar.

Dash attack is pretty much snake's fastest punish at a distance. Use it. Just figure out where you can use it. Landings, lagging moves on shield, etc.

As far as pushing Olimar into your grabs, I believe you want to work him into the corner of the stage even with the aid of projectiles. Use your nades and snake himself to force olimar towards the edge of the stage, then you no longer really have to use nades once you reach center stage. After that, you control center stage and work on Olimar over extending himself.

Pretty much you ignore all thrown pikmin except purple ones you powershield and use a variety of baits (run away), tricks (sudden attack), and well timed dodges to really get him to over extend himself.

I don't feel like Snake has much to combat Olimar on the ground other than simply trying to stay at the range of Olimar and wait for him to come him or make a mistake such as using SH pikmin throw too close when you dash attack or something like that.

 

[Kuro~]

That's all we need though. Almost every option that is feasible to land pops him into the air or offstage. one hit can very feasibly lead to great reward.

 

[B.A.M.]

Also vs Oli snake can bust some silly jab stuff on him once hes in the air and hes trying to land due to his susceptibility to jabs. like couple jabs to shield grab or grab, or jabs to dtilt to pop him up again, jab to ftilt of course, jab to dair, etc. Dont underestimate sh over olimar's ground game either, aside from the use of yellow fsmash, coming from that way then ff ftilt can work out in certain scenarios. dont be afraid of abusing ftilt 1 and jab, oli has no super armor on his grab and these can slaughter him. Its same reason why (if you watched it) Anti was able to get away with ftilt, dtilt, ftilt on shield even though each of them has minimum of -11 frames between them ( ftilt1 from mk having 19 frames of lag before you can even hope to do another move aside from ftilt 2). We can do similar things once we get in his zone. Always remember that .


Also in regards to MK, I see a lot of times people utilize pivot grabs to keep him out. However there isnt much need for that. regular nade toss to ftilt 1 can keep him out. the trick is to throw the ftilt1 out BEFORE he gets into ftilt max range. The reason thats key is it allows you to punish any dash option AND protects you from dash shield which usually owns ppl because they space ftilt at max range of a short whiff range. Doing it early causes them to have to shield earlier and they wont get that shield slide grab. if u did a regular nade toss then they usually have to stop around that area otherwise they fall into an ftilt frame trap with a nade setup behind them.

Also Im sure ppl know this already, but nikita owns glide approaching ( well so does dash under or back and jab/ftilt). Due to Nikitas two hitboxes, you can do some silly things vs an MK. Nikita the glide and if it gets glide attacked then cancel for the free hit. If MK is somewhat near you, that hit can lead into utilt, uair, nair, DA, even ftilt in some cases.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Does anyone know of any good videos which display what Snake should do in the Peach mu? =D


EDIT:Also does anyone have any pointers for the Marth mu? o-o

 

[Attila_]

Also vs Oli snake can bust some silly jab stuff on him once hes in the air and hes trying to land due to his susceptibility to jabs. like couple jabs to shield grab or grab, or jabs to dtilt to pop him up again, jab to ftilt of course, jab to dair, etc. Dont underestimate sh over olimar's ground game either, aside from the use of yellow fsmash, coming from that way then ff ftilt can work out in certain scenarios. dont be afraid of abusing ftilt 1 and jab, oli has no super armor on his grab and these can slaughter him. Its same reason why (if you watched it) Anti was able to get away with ftilt, dtilt, ftilt on shield even though each of them has minimum of -11 frames between them ( ftilt1 from mk having 19 frames of lag before you can even hope to do another move aside from ftilt 2). We can do similar things once we get in his zone. Always remember that .


Also in regards to MK, I see a lot of times people utilize pivot grabs to keep him out. However there isnt much need for that. regular nade toss to ftilt 1 can keep him out. the trick is to throw the ftilt1 out BEFORE he gets into ftilt max range. The reason thats key is it allows you to punish any dash option AND protects you from dash shield which usually owns ppl because they space ftilt at max range of a short whiff range. Doing it early causes them to have to shield earlier and they wont get that shield slide grab. if u did a regular nade toss then they usually have to stop around that area otherwise they fall into an ftilt frame trap with a nade setup behind them.

Also Im sure ppl know this already, but nikita owns glide approaching ( well so does dash under or back and jab/ftilt). Due to Nikitas two hitboxes, you can do some silly things vs an MK. Nikita the glide and if it gets glide attacked then cancel for the free hit. If MK is somewhat near you, that hit can lead into utilt, uair, nair, DA, even ftilt in some cases.

disagree with the vast majority of this.

note the vast majority of good players rarely use these tactics.

 

[B.A.M.]

disagree with the vast majority of this.

note the vast majority of good players rarely use these tactics.

you disagree because according to you the vast majority of good players dont use these tactics.

..........


I hope you realizes how that sounds. Majority of what I said isnt even for disagreement. Its stuff that works. period. you can say you dont like using them. But saying you disagree makes no sense whatsoever.

Olimar is susceptible to jabs. that is a fact

Nikita can stop gliding due to its clanking properities. fact.

a ton of characters can sh right over a majority of olimars ground options san yellow fsmash. fact.

playing footsies with ftilt is good vs MK approach. fact.

Nikita when cancel can lead into other free stuff. fact.

Snake can create pressure when pinning someone between himself and a nade. fact.



So please if you are going to retort an argument, understand the statement being made and GIVE actual reasoning as to why it isnt so. What you have stated so far has no merit at all.


@ Ralph: Snake annihilates Marth onces hes offstage due to the active hitbox on his bair which can wreck DS recovery, and the fact snake gets time to setup his dangerous ledge game against arguably the weakest ledge recovery in the game due to RCO lag. placing a mine at his roll range over even just standing in between the ledge roll range and the edge ruins a ton of his options. the best way for marth to get rid of his RCO lag ( besides the DS cancel) is an aerial. He can do b moves while landing to remove the RCO lag from that current jump, however it will still be present. The thing is Marths b moves are all fairly punishable. especially coming from the air. So you can just shield and punish a ledge hop aerial and punish the extra landing lag he has. That leaves him with regular get up, roll, and ledge attack. All of those can be reacted to OoS which makes it pretty hard for marth to deal with. If you end up catching one of those, snake gets jab> utilt, even jab>dair if spaced correctly as snake jab will pop them up and force a hard landing penalty of 35 frames i believe for marth. So thats definitely something you want to keep in mind.

Also understand that you can punish sh approaches or zoning by using DA to go under and hit his feet. You can actually utilize dtilt to make fair whiff and hit his legs ( this ones kinda old school). The main issue in this MU Snake is going to have is Marths dijointed aerial frame traps that he can do while juggling you. This is where it gets tough. My advice is just be weary of his habits, BEWARE of tipper bair as that kills very nicely AND on whiff during juggling frame traps into fair. So you use your ff AD properly. You have to get away from him; his frame traps are too solid on snake and the range + fact that its disjointed means you cant really challenge it. Also note that dthrow>buffered jab will stop a buffered f roll from him. So add that to you list of dthrow tactics when playing a marth. Something thats important in every MU but I really enforce it here, dont be afraid to trade, trading not only puts you ahead due to the difference in weight, but it prevents him from juggling you to oblivion. So its good to look for these scenarios when dealing with such a strong juggling offense.

 

[False]

1. MKs can mix up dash grabs/dash attack with cross up rolls or nado. this would **** ftilt in an instance where pivot grab would cover ALL of the options possible. not ruling out that ftilt is a bad option but pivot grab is a big part of our game against MK on the ground. fact. (:

2. our jab has mediocre range. olimar is NOT susceptible to jabs. fact. (:

3. a marth that recovers CORRECTLY will not get hit by our bair. you telling us that we should even go offstage against marth is ridiculous. You say that we can just stay in shield to punish his recovery options.. you're sorely mistaken. marth can just plank and eat away at your sorry shield until it pokes. it's better if snake makes a read/reaction while staying one snake distance away from the ledge.
marths have even been utilizing platform cancelling out of the ledge to get rid of their RCO lag.

 

[Attila_]

thanks false.

just a few other things.

nikita is not good at stopping glide attack. in the case that the mk is approaching with glide from a distance (why he would do this is a mystery to me), nikita could be used, then he cancels his glide, and no one wins. awesome. if he uses it at correct range, you cannot react and hit with a nikita, because its simply too slow. and if you have to cancel it, you're gonna get hit by something.

repeated jabs are not a true combo. very sdi-able. two consecutive ones will often work, but three or more, or two jabs followed by a grab should never combo. single jab to grab, or single jab to pivot grab, is generally the best option.

snake has the slowest jump in the game. he also has an incredibly poor aerial approach. sh against oli might work once or twice as a mix up, but should not be considered a 'good' option.

generally good players are good because they have a solid understanding of safe tactics, and what can/should be used. obivously players like ally get away with trying weird things, because theyre just so much better than their opponent in other areas, but that doesnt make a lot of things 'good'.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm like 89% sure that Jab1 -> Ftilt on Olimar was one of the few guaranteed combos given no SDI and you hit with the proper hitsphere from Jab1. I'd have to find the post I did on that scenario, but pretty sure Olimar was on there.

 

[Attila_]

i do believe BAM was referring to jabbing when he's landing, in which case ftilt1 would hit him away.

but yeah, i remember that too.

 

[Mike2]

Random question: Is box taunt edge guard viable vs marth when he's put in a bad position off stage(no jump)? or anybody for that matter? Or is it just something to troll with?

like, box taunt --> speed hug ledge

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Thanks B.A.M. Also just to clarify are you saying I should just get him off stage, and start setting up? Then I should pressure him on the ledge? Also I kind of do agree with False and I would rather not risk going off stage, or in the air with Marth. o-o

I think box taunt might be semi viable/trolling. I'd personally go for it, because if it worked they get fairly angry and might mess up. =D Unless he up-b goes right through it. >_<

 

[Kuro~]

Actually bair is pretty good vs marth offstage. It's medium risk high reward when done right. Can easily end up in a stock.

@Mike2 idk tbh. I've always wanted to test that snake metagame minute facts in certain mu like ones with tethers, spacies, marth, diddy. You never know. You could be "that guy" to find something dumb lol.

 

[Jrugs]

Random question: Is box taunt edge guard viable vs marth when he's put in a bad position off stage(no jump)? or anybody for that matter? Or is it just something to troll with?

like, box taunt --> speed hug ledge

IDK but if you do it to Nike in tourney @ the next HOBO I will personally give you 20$
Ill call it the Jrug's challenge.
40$-If you gimp Mike Haze in tourney with the box.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Does Snake's box knock Diddy out of his up-b? O-o That would be pretty awesome lol.

 

[Kuro~]

Yes. It's a hitbox. So it should. Lol.

 

[Attila_]

It does. Although it would take ages, and Diddy has two ways of getting to the ledge.

I think it's potentially useful against tink and link, but only if they di poorly and end up low and offstage.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I feel like we shouldn't dive into how we might get this to work. Probably better to have the opinion that it never works no matter what and its like the ultimate read in edgeguarding to die from it when the time comes.

 

[Nike.]

Yes it is viable, provided Marth already used his double jump and he's forced into a set trajectory during his upb. (aka he can't maneuver around it)

 

[Ralph Cecil]

D= I only was wondering because I wasn't sure if his up-b's hit box would cancel it out or not. o-o

 

[Nike.]

Marth loses incincibility after the first 5 frames of upb, so he's definetely hitable afterwards. A pretty good example of this is Pikachu or Metaknight hanging and doing a ledge drop -> nair as Marth tries to upb.

To hit Marth's upb with a box, though, would take extremely good timing since it's like over a full second before the box would even be below the ledge to hit Marth lol.

 

[B.A.M.]

@False:

1.
Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12

first off given the frames if snake is throwing out ftilt before MK gets in proper range to roll, then snake will have the advantage even if the roll gets through. Secondly, Snake simply walking forward screws with the spacing required for a proper cross up roll by MK. The whole point is to space it to whiff. Pivot grab does cover all attack options but is easily punishable on whiff. Ftilt spaced to whiff is definitely harder. And unless hes in the air already nado will be stopped by ftilt because it wont reach it high priority yet. The whole point is if used properly ftilt 1 can halt a ton of MK mix ups and attempted baiting, something pivot grab has trouble with. Pivot grab also gives up stage, and the last thing you wanna do vs an MK is get knocked off.

This is also good because a ton of options to beat it require great spacing from the MK which is harder to achieve while running in. and if he starts a dash from midrange walk ftilt will beat anything he can do unless he jump cancel SL perfectly . Reason being of course, that he is unable to shield and everything else from dash takes too long. Heck when u see them dashing in from afar you can simply do full ftilt to hit them before any shield can come out.

Dont get it twisted it is easier said than done. However it DOES work, AND is a safer option due to the fact an actually decent player will bait out a pivot grab. Utilizing both works wonders. However I see a ton of people completely giving up on ftilt spacing in the MU cuz of all these options MK has when the reality of the situation is that most ppl's concept of spacing ftilt is bad within this scenario. Ftilt1 with the intention to whiff is really good.

2. Olimar IS susceptible to jabs. Unless you want to tell Rich Brown otherwise. he has no grab armor, his grab take awhile and you can actually still have an active hitbox as ur are getting grabbed. its one of the reason falco can double jab his *** and he literally cant do anything unless they mess up. Along with his height, its the reason luigi gets a free jab> up b on him. Its actually the same reasoning as to why he gets side b > dsmashed by ganon lol. Jab pressure is hard for Oli to deal with period.

3. If you stand next to the edge, yes Marth will eat your shield, you have to space yourself properly which is quite easy when you have a 4 frame tilt that spaces like snake. If you are standing next to the edge like an idiot then of course your shield will get slaughtered. But if you actually space yourself you can cover the majority of marths normal options and you can shield on reaction and punish his aerials due to RCO lag. and LOL at Marths using platform canceling. throw out a freakin hitbox. thats only one options which isnt that great, cant be done anywhere, and on the main stage its used (SV) its relies on a MOVING platform. Come on now dude.

bair will go through up b period. if you hug the ledge and bair the up b there isnt anything he can do. Every character can do it to marth's up b. Snakes meaty bair is quite easy to land it with is what im saying. Do this as a punish NOT a read. Im not saying just run off and bair to oblivion. bair is frame 7. read nike's post on ledge drop nair.



@shmot: If MK cancel glide he has no hit box and he gets hit by nikita. its not a stalemate; its a freakin missile to your face. the reason why i even mentioned this in the first place, is because someppl when they knock off MK will go for a Nikita and MK will attempt to glide by and hit them for it. Knowing that Nikita beats out every scenario out of glide enables more confidence in its usage when spaced.

@Ralph: yes if you can get Marth offstage, you can start setting up some nasty stuff against marth. the great thing is too because of the nature of snakes moveset you can keep knocking him off and get some solid damage. As for the bair, its something that should be used if you can manage to make marth use his double jump, in which case his recovery is very linear. (in some cases grabbing the ledge is clearly the superior option).

 

[Attila_]

Zomg it's all wrong.

In no instance does ftilt beat nado. Do you even play this game?

 

[Kuro~]

errr ftilt most certainly cancels out nado at the beginning which is what he was referring to. EVery move in the game does that to nado...

 

[Attila_]

Grounded nado clanks, but mk has frame advantage.

You can beat startup, but not the move itself.

 

[clowsui]

BAM dash attack COMPLETELY blows up that ftilt trap you're talking about lol. dash attack is super good @ whiff punish and has same priority as ftilt so it either clanks or beats based on frames unless MK is bad @ spacing DA. additionally i don't see how your ftilt spacing is going to beat roll lol. either you keep going forward and keep ftilting (and MK does a cross up roll) or you don't walk, MK sees that and he adjusts accordingly. snake doesn't just wave his arms however he likes, whiff zoning in this game is actually pretty weak due to how block functions

also snake doesn't actually annihilate marth on the ledge. how did you forget about ledge jump? snake does not have the option coverage to eliminate all recovery options from marth in an effective way on ANY stage except FD (and even still you do not have any effective way to constantly reset marth into the ledge >__>) at best snake gets like 1 reset if marth is unfamiliar with the ledge trap. On BF if I see the Snake camping the dead zone I just ledge jump rather than ledge hop, or I regular getup, or I initiate damage trade by purposefully landing onstage in a position where I am in a bad scenario either way. Lots of different options you aren't considering

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I have seen Havok have a nice edgeguarding set up on BF where he places a C4 within rolling distance of the ledge, and then stands on the platform closest to that ledge. I'm not sure how effective that is, but it looked kind of nice when I saw it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'll have to try that. At first I thought that wouldn't be a good spot. People can wait on the ledge forever since Snake can't do anything. But, if you position for a drop through Bair, then snake can automatically shield drop nades down and apply the tiniest of pressure.

I need something new to try tonight anyway. I've not played brawl in about 2-3 months now. Longest drought ever for me.

 

[Jrugs]

Marth loses incincibility after the first 5 frames of upb, so he's definetely hitable afterwards. A pretty good example of this is Pikachu or Metaknight hanging and doing a ledge drop -> nair as Marth tries to upb.

To hit Marth's upb with a box, though, would take extremely good timing since it's like over a full second before the box would even be below the ledge to hit Marth lol.

Sooooooooo.....30$

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Oh, I did not realize how many spelling mistakes were in Nike's post. I shall now play the role of the "Nazi Police".

"Marth loses invincibility after 5 frames of his Dolphin Slash. So, he is certainly vulnerable afterwards. A pretty good example of abusing this vulnerability is with Pikachu or Meta Knight hanging on the ledge and performing: ledge drop -> neutral air as Marth tries to Dolphin Slash.

To hit Marth's Dolphin Slash with a box would take very good timing since it takes roughly over a second before the box will be below the ledge to hit marth. Laugh out Loud."

 

[Nike.]

Money match

 

[PEACE7]

5 bucks on Nike

 

[Nike.]

Oh wow random. I watched Mikehaze vs False just now, came back to this page, and False is viewing the thread lol.

Oh whoops. Laugh. Out. Loud.

 

[B.A.M.]

BAM dash attack COMPLETELY blows up that ftilt trap you're talking about lol. dash attack is super good @ whiff punish and has same priority as ftilt so it either clanks or beats based on frames unless MK is bad @ spacing DA. additionally i don't see how your ftilt spacing is going to beat roll lol. either you keep going forward and keep ftilting (and MK does a cross up roll) or you don't walk, MK sees that and he adjusts accordingly. snake doesn't just wave his arms however he likes, whiff zoning in this game is actually pretty weak due to how block functions

also snake doesn't actually annihilate marth on the ledge. how did you forget about ledge jump? snake does not have the option coverage to eliminate all recovery options from marth in an effective way on ANY stage except FD (and even still you do not have any effective way to constantly reset marth into the ledge >__>) at best snake gets like 1 reset if marth is unfamiliar with the ledge trap. On BF if I see the Snake camping the dead zone I just ledge jump rather than ledge hop, or I regular getup, or I initiate damage trade by purposefully landing onstage in a position where I am in a bad scenario either way. Lots of different options you aren't considering

Dude if Marth has RCO lag, being in the air is a liability. period. Its not something up for discussion. His options are severely limited. He not only will have his opponent underneath him ( a classic Marth blind spot) he has a terrible AD AND gets RCO lag from DS. Ledge jump is definitely one of his better options but if hes in the air then you are in a good position. Snake see you jump he can just walk forward and usmash. As long as he can keep you from going over him ( which the mortar trap helps with) he can potential get you back offstage or at least get some solid damage off. If snake camps the deadzone and you regular get up he can just walk close (not right next to u) and see what option use choose. marth get up attack isnt that great in range and snake can reach the roll and regular get up easily with ftilt/DA. Damage trade? how does this damage trade go? Cuz trading with snake isnt good at all.

In any case no character is going to cover every option just like that. Im not saying that. Excuse me for the hyperbole then. However, I hope we can concur that Snake is very good at the offensive ledge game, and Marth is very bad at the defensive ledge game.

Secondly, yes DA is good for MK. it also loses to regular grab just like his dash grab does. If its baited out it also is quite easy to punish. The thing is metaknight still has nades to deal with during all this, and just the same as MK can adjust his spacing so can Snake. You make it sound like snake cant walk backwards or do anything else.This isnt an end all be all tactic. However its something that is a solid option during MK approach. Ftilt is an amazing wiff punish because you always have the ability to simply go into ftilt 2 if you see movement. Moving backwards and forwards into and out of ranges and spacing ftilt changes up the situation due to shield sliding mechanics, amount of grounded needed to cover in order to shield, etc. Heck, if a MK attempts a cross up roll and you are walking forward they arent going to reach you by the time the roll is finished unless you threw out ftilt 2 for some reason. If done PERFECTLY, the MK can maybe hope to cross up buffer ftilt which can be SDIed out of quite easy at that distance giving a free ftilt ( that larry tech). If you place a ftilt out there and attempt to dash in at that time then they get hit, if they dont anything and theyre in your range they get hit or they shield (and unless they ISSDIx2 ) they are caught in a frame trap compliments of ftilt 2/watever. Again I will repeat, its not an absolute option, but neither is it obsolete which a ton of snakes seem to think nowadays. You can dash back and ftilt 1 as well, something Havok does from time to time although he hasnt gotten true pivoting down yet.

You know what? here. the beginning is a perfect example of what Im talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n7-h8pDZTU

spacing with ftilt when they are grounded, and utilt when they are airborne is very good in conjunction with nades. Add your mix ups and snake is able to build a strong guard against MK approaching mix ups.

@shmot: shut the hell up. Youre from Australia. I play with Tyrant and Mike Haze regularly. I used to main snake and am a good friend of Susa's, constantly testing alongside him. Im not playing scrubby players. Theres no need to insult me in the discussion at all. During the course of this you havent been able to explain a damn thing. You just wait for other Snakes to come to your aid. You probably dont even understand the concept of footsies. So please stop talking unless you are going to add something constructive. nado is ten frames startup, and anyone controlling nado isnt just going to be standing there with it, which means a buffered side b more than likely. It doesnt get its amazing priority until it gets into the air and by then if you are watching this you either have utilted the crap out of it, went behind/ taken out a nade, or ran away from the situation entirely. The only options that are really strong against ftilt trapping IS DA like Clowsui was saying, HOWEVER you can alter your spacing which force MK to alter his, and his wiff is far more punishable then yours due to ftilt 2.

 

[Attila_]

lol. i dont reply to everything namely because i dont need to. theres a lot there, and other people are just going to point out the same thigns as me anyway. and for the most part, i ceebs.

and you shouldnt discredit me for being australia. being the best in your region, no matter where it is, proves that you a at least capable of understanding the metagame, and are probably aware of what top players do. at least to say, more aware than the 20 million other people in your country.

instead of watching kakera, try watching rain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgZE2nkLV8&feature=context&context=G2e64716FUAAAAAAAAAA

he ***** shuu at footies. namely because he uses nado properly. shuu also tries to defend against approaches a few times with ftilt, except it doesnt pay off. he also never uses nikita to stop approaches, most probably because there isnt enough time.

also, tested with m2k when he was in australia, and mk can safely roll behind ftilt1, provided he doesnt try to attack afterwards.

 

[B.A.M.]

*sigh* shmot you do realize it also depends on when the ftilt is done too right? frame advantage isnt that clear cut. More often then not MK puts himself back into a frame trap, and thats if snake guesses wrong. Thats what I mean about in regards to safety. And again i was stating how strong this tactic is with the use of a normal toss. If theres a nade out, that nado rain is using blows up everytime. Also again im not saying this is the perfect tactic; its a strong basis. Even shu starts using it without a nade, and because rain responds with nado, he starts getting some good punishes off it. Rain does get in, without a doubt. Shu also racks up a ton of damage on him with the threat of ftilt as well. Lastly I already described the scenario in which i was referring to when using Nikita, so if you dont want to actually take the time and read what i said then im just going excuse that topic completely.

If you are going to speak about your knowledge about metagame, then Im sure you understand that its not just ftilt trap with nades, but also the threat of the tactic. Shu ( why he doesnt space himself with a nade during is beyond me) starts to see rains option for his ftilting game is nado, and then starts to punish hard. How many nado punishes did he get? At the end of the 1 stock 1st game they are both even maybe even Shu's advantage due to snakes KO power. he ends up losing this one due to lack of nades and utilt. Game 2 he starts bringing out nades but not much tilt footsies otherwise, later on he starts pressuring with tilts making the game go down to the wire and he loses due to a mistimed utilt from dthrow. Just Rain beat him, doesnt mean the tactic is invalid. Shu did get punishes off ftilt trapping and nade pressure in both sets even clanks with nadoes and outright beats it with utilts. He deviated from nades in the 1st game and started back dashing ( with the bad turn) which allowed nado to be a good option. Whereas during Kakera, a lot of nados wouldve just blown up the nade next to him, along with the utilt Shu was using on reaction. And all this occured with a couple pivot grabs being thrown out by Shu and being punish virtually every time by simply waiting.

Lastly shmot, just because you are a top player somewhere else doesnt mean you can be coupled with the top in the US/Japan or even Europe. Thats like saying since im the best baller in papua new guinea, I understand the metagame like Michael Jordan. That isnt the case at all. Thats just faulty logic.

And lol at testing ftilt vs mk roll. MK only has a small frame window where he can roll and be somewhat okay. The rest is Snakes favor if he reacts accordingly. given he has 23 frames to do so, its a option in Snakes favor.