DJ Arcatek
Smash Champion
Ahh, well that makes sense
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Official Snake Q&A Area
- Thread starter Underload
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Don't get grabbed.
I was an MK from the start, I never used snake as my primary character at a tournament until december of last year -_-
stupid reasoning to discredit someone anyway, you think ally and DSF shouldn't have opinions on snake? obviously anyone that switches to MK is terrible for wanting to win and using the better tool for it
lol you
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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Anyone else find it funny how the Q&A thread turned into our social ;P
Well, glad you are sticking around more often Etecoon. Not sure what drove this recent activity for you, but happy any way.
@Footstools: There are different footstooling heights you can reach depending how long you hold the jump button. Just like trying to make a full hop vs a short hop. You can do a high footstool or a low footstool height. I've been wondering if snake could somehow hit someone from a footstool. Much like how marth/falco and others can spike rob out of a footstool if they face the right way.
Well, glad you are sticking around more often Etecoon. Not sure what drove this recent activity for you, but happy any way.
@Footstools: There are different footstooling heights you can reach depending how long you hold the jump button. Just like trying to make a full hop vs a short hop. You can do a high footstool or a low footstool height. I've been wondering if snake could somehow hit someone from a footstool. Much like how marth/falco and others can spike rob out of a footstool if they face the right way.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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You should really learn to pick-up melee. Another community to learn, more stuff to challenge yourself with, etc. But, I'm done with being a bit bias now.
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
Mmk then at least back up your sentiments instead of basically saying lol snake sucks lol
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
Why is Snake bad? because he doesn't beat anybody? lol its pretty simple. The only good characters Snake has an advantage on are Diddy and Ice Climbers. That's it. Some Mid Tier characters have better top tier matchups than that. the other matchups "aren't that bad" (which is the only reason Snake is even tournament viable) but he still LOSES THEM
there're two reasons why Snake is so high, 1. Ally and 2. MK--Snake was thought for the longest to be a decent MK matchup (not so, we've learned), and also MK scares away all the Olimars, DDDs, and Falcos who would otherwise be eliminating us from tournaments lol so we basically just have to learn how to beat scrub MKs and get top 8
I'd put Snake at the top of the C tier or maybe bottom of B tier.
there're two reasons why Snake is so high, 1. Ally and 2. MK--Snake was thought for the longest to be a decent MK matchup (not so, we've learned), and also MK scares away all the Olimars, DDDs, and Falcos who would otherwise be eliminating us from tournaments lol so we basically just have to learn how to beat scrub MKs and get top 8
I'd put Snake at the top of the C tier or maybe bottom of B tier.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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haha I don't quite agree with that. Players certainly had a factor in keeping him in high esteem. Even further, the fact that he DOES go well against MK more so than most of the cast helps keep him up there.
Snake has always had high end qualities in a few areas, but was always held back in a few. Living long, great damage in a few hits, and killing early are his selling points. If anything, that is why most of his match-ups are evenish range. Snake only has to hit you a few times to get you to KO percent while a lot of other characters have to hit snake a many times over to get to KO percent. You have to play very well for a long period of time to really beat snake pretty solidly and the thing is that people mess up. Snake can afford to mess up more while others cannot afford to do that. This is why Snake is still a very good character above nearly the whole cast. It's just that snake is less impressive in other areas than other characters can be.
-Snake has poor aerial options. Each option is lengthy and has to be committed too. If you make the right one, you are Scott free. If not, you are back in the air again.
-Snake's recovery is decent, yet still bad. Imagine Ganon gets hit in his recovery, that's that and he is dead. Snake is like that, but with C4 he can always make it back to the stage if hit (obviously barring KO move or spike). So Snake's recovery is still bad like ganon's, but the only thing that keeps him good still is that Snake usually gets more chances to recover after being knocked back once.
-Snake honestly doesn't have very 'safe' moves. If he whiffs, he is vulnerable to counterattack and punishment. To compensate Snake has to mix it up and put into his opponents mind, "What is he going to do next?" If Snake is holding a nade, he is not all that scary. Grab him and be done with it. But will snake hold onto the nade or will he dodge/roll or grab or throw it? This is not safety, rather it is a gamble. MK's retreating Fair or Falco's laser is safety because there is very little you can do about it for most characters. Every character though usually has some answer to Snake's antics, and so it is a matter of winning those prediction/reads against him rather than being completely shut down by Snake.
Snake is in no way a 'bad' character to deserve that B tier status. But neither should he be elevated to the status that others like Falco, MK, and Diddy deserve. For a good analogy, he is like what G&W turned out to be after a year of Brawl being out. A solid character, but just not enough to him.
Snake has always had high end qualities in a few areas, but was always held back in a few. Living long, great damage in a few hits, and killing early are his selling points. If anything, that is why most of his match-ups are evenish range. Snake only has to hit you a few times to get you to KO percent while a lot of other characters have to hit snake a many times over to get to KO percent. You have to play very well for a long period of time to really beat snake pretty solidly and the thing is that people mess up. Snake can afford to mess up more while others cannot afford to do that. This is why Snake is still a very good character above nearly the whole cast. It's just that snake is less impressive in other areas than other characters can be.
-Snake has poor aerial options. Each option is lengthy and has to be committed too. If you make the right one, you are Scott free. If not, you are back in the air again.
-Snake's recovery is decent, yet still bad. Imagine Ganon gets hit in his recovery, that's that and he is dead. Snake is like that, but with C4 he can always make it back to the stage if hit (obviously barring KO move or spike). So Snake's recovery is still bad like ganon's, but the only thing that keeps him good still is that Snake usually gets more chances to recover after being knocked back once.
-Snake honestly doesn't have very 'safe' moves. If he whiffs, he is vulnerable to counterattack and punishment. To compensate Snake has to mix it up and put into his opponents mind, "What is he going to do next?" If Snake is holding a nade, he is not all that scary. Grab him and be done with it. But will snake hold onto the nade or will he dodge/roll or grab or throw it? This is not safety, rather it is a gamble. MK's retreating Fair or Falco's laser is safety because there is very little you can do about it for most characters. Every character though usually has some answer to Snake's antics, and so it is a matter of winning those prediction/reads against him rather than being completely shut down by Snake.
Snake is in no way a 'bad' character to deserve that B tier status. But neither should he be elevated to the status that others like Falco, MK, and Diddy deserve. For a good analogy, he is like what G&W turned out to be after a year of Brawl being out. A solid character, but just not enough to him.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
tbh, I think that's one thing that holds some snake players back (including myself) is that we play him like he's some unstoppable god character, when we should be playing with his many weaknesses in mind
i disagree with almost everything that's been said.
snake used to be good because he'd kill based on less punishes; 6x21% (average punish) would put most characters at kill %, while snake would need to be punished more times to accomplish the same, given his weight and comparitably worse kill moves of other characters.
over time, most players have established ways of punishing snake considerably worse than he can punish them, evening up and changing mus in the process. mks learnt that, due to terrible air options, heavy weight and large hurtbox, one solid juggle/combo/string could actually kill snake, or at the very least, give him some 70%. diddys, falco, marths, d3s, olis and warios quickly followed suit.
then the punishment aspect of snake's game was actually blown out of the water; other characters began punishing him more than he was punishing them. and thus, despite the fact that he was living to a higher percent, he was still dying much quicker than most other characters.
the one thing that keeps snake kicking in this game is his disgustingly variable and pressuring camping game. snake almost outcamps the entire cast, and is the only character who can apply heavy pressure and even ko from the other side of the stage. his game is based on his explosives, essentially.
and this is where the metagame is right now, snake outcamps, forces apporaches, and pressures players into making mistakes. tilts are a nice addition to his arsenal, but are by no means an overly important part of it. hell, dthrow is a much better punish option in almost every situation.
if snake can set up a zone, and maintain it for long durations of time, he should win. but one mistake, letting your opponent through one time, quite often means a snake.
a perfect snake wins everything. but perfection is impossible.
snake used to be good because he'd kill based on less punishes; 6x21% (average punish) would put most characters at kill %, while snake would need to be punished more times to accomplish the same, given his weight and comparitably worse kill moves of other characters.
over time, most players have established ways of punishing snake considerably worse than he can punish them, evening up and changing mus in the process. mks learnt that, due to terrible air options, heavy weight and large hurtbox, one solid juggle/combo/string could actually kill snake, or at the very least, give him some 70%. diddys, falco, marths, d3s, olis and warios quickly followed suit.
then the punishment aspect of snake's game was actually blown out of the water; other characters began punishing him more than he was punishing them. and thus, despite the fact that he was living to a higher percent, he was still dying much quicker than most other characters.
the one thing that keeps snake kicking in this game is his disgustingly variable and pressuring camping game. snake almost outcamps the entire cast, and is the only character who can apply heavy pressure and even ko from the other side of the stage. his game is based on his explosives, essentially.
and this is where the metagame is right now, snake outcamps, forces apporaches, and pressures players into making mistakes. tilts are a nice addition to his arsenal, but are by no means an overly important part of it. hell, dthrow is a much better punish option in almost every situation.
if snake can set up a zone, and maintain it for long durations of time, he should win. but one mistake, letting your opponent through one time, quite often means a snake.
a perfect snake wins everything. but perfection is impossible.
Ralph Cecil
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Yeah I agree with that lol. Also I have noticed that I deal damage quicker from tech chases more than anything lol.
agree with everything shmot said except
I think snake's oki is the most amazing thing about him, the MU's I hate the most when playing as snake are mostly the characters that are very adept at avoiding grabs. he gets juggled pretty badly too but it's characters that can do both that are the most annoying, like marth is great at juggling snake but if he wasn't so safe vs shield grabs I think snake would still win that MU
snake is the only character that can apply KO pressure from across the stage, but I don't think he outcamps that many characters at all. falco, olimar, toon link, pit, and sheik beat snake in the projectile game IMO, and many others have an easy enough time avoiding grenades that they can time you out pretty easily
I think snake's oki is the most amazing thing about him, the MU's I hate the most when playing as snake are mostly the characters that are very adept at avoiding grabs. he gets juggled pretty badly too but it's characters that can do both that are the most annoying, like marth is great at juggling snake but if he wasn't so safe vs shield grabs I think snake would still win that MU
if you have two perfect players fighting each other in some hypothetical scenario, I think a lot of characters are better than snake. snake actually thrives on whatever weaknesses his opponents present, his defense would crack against a perfect opponent. I think this is reflected in the progression of the game, snake was the best character at one point near the beginning. as people move closer and closer to perfection, though they will never attain it, characters with better frame data and mobility become better than snake
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
This thread =
Stop crying
Stop crying
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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I think this would have been a better choice for a salty heart. By the way, has anyone tried liver and onions before? What is liver is commonly used anyway?
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
False
Smash Lord
Going to KTAR6 tomorrow. I will be going ALL Snake and if the need arises I will pull out my booty Falco.
I will make you guys proud; I will be taking names and causing upsets.
Also I'll be saving crew battle LoF vs UFB
I will make you guys proud; I will be taking names and causing upsets.
Also I'll be saving crew battle LoF vs UFB
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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Falk Snake and go all Falco :D
Enough of that.
Pull off those sick combos and get stuff for your combo video. Retain your flashest snake title
(however you got it)
Ralph Cecil
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Just wondering, but can you footstool MK out of nado? I was just wondering, because I heard the hitbox for it was huge.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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Tilt your shield above if MK's nado is above you slightly. Tilt Down if he is below you slightly.
You won't stop the nado from happening with a footstool, but you will jump above it.
You won't stop the nado from happening with a footstool, but you will jump above it.
Good luck false! Go rep flashy snake!
Trouble with nado? Crouch moar.
Trouble with nado? Crouch moar.
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
woo just got six stocked by reflex's ****ing squirtle. how do you play this damn game yo.
Squirtle? Avoid him for two minutes and you win lol
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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I forgot if Squirtle actually loses hitstun on his moves or not from the fatigue mechanic. I thought the fatigue actually benefited him on some things like longer Utilt chains or actual CGs. Anyone know?
Yumewomiteru
Smash Master
Squirtle loses knockback and damage, hitstun is proportional to knockback, so yes. He gets longer utilt chains because of tghe reduced knockback.
He can combo better, but only at really low percents.
Stay below 130% at the two minute mark at you won't be dying for a very long time.
Also, Sdi his jab. Into bair.
Stay below 130% at the two minute mark at you won't be dying for a very long time.
Also, Sdi his jab. Into bair.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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lI was just thinking about what you said earlier with your reputation of preemptive SDI. You might SDI bair into a powershield xD
But man, SDI makes this whole game better and makes stuff dumb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsPDo26MZdo
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
preemptive sdi is amazing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xbF6PeuyJ8#t=19m35s
you can do this REALLY easily against pit also.
but yeah, bair can punish squirtle's jab. definitely.
also, if he doesn't sweetspot the edge with upB in favour of hitting you, you can sdi down and away, crouch, and punish his freefall with utilt. i've done this a number of times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xbF6PeuyJ8#t=19m35s
you can do this REALLY easily against pit also.
but yeah, bair can punish squirtle's jab. definitely.
also, if he doesn't sweetspot the edge with upB in favour of hitting you, you can sdi down and away, crouch, and punish his freefall with utilt. i've done this a number of times.
1. Up
2. Up and towards
3. towards/away depending on spacing
4. Away if he's rising, up if he's not
2. Up and towards
3. towards/away depending on spacing
4. Away if he's rising, up if he's not
The flurry hit? Towards and punish with ftilt. This one is pretty easy.
Sheik... Up and towards I think. Can't remember playing one.
Ness' sideb is away/towards depending on what side you're on.
Oli's uair is pretty easy too; down then uair.
Sheik... Up and towards I think. Can't remember playing one.
Ness' sideb is away/towards depending on what side you're on.
Oli's uair is pretty easy too; down then uair.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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Basically any multi-hitting attack you can hold a direction on the control stick and get out eventually. Tapping the sticks (SDI) gets you out further and faster, but it can be easier to simply hold a direction at times. For example, doing that against PK fire works because Ness is too slow to follow-up afterwards. Doing it against simple multi-hitting jabs too.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Sheik's ftilt will still get you for trying to SDI it because of the minimal hitlag (and sheik can very easily turn it around after it being SDId to one side because of the forgiving margin the hitbox gives), just pull out a grenade, it will force her to use only two ftilts then throw you (which is still a bad position, but better than getting tilt locked to crazy percents).
