Official Snake Q&A Area

[False]

Interesting.. Although I usually bair to momentum cancel, and I really don't want to be pulling that fsmash out in a game breaking moment. o_OOO

I'll give it a try with uair though.

 

[Kuro~]

Does the PDACG give the same grab range boost as if you were to just do a sliding pivot grab? Both make you slide but i can't tell whether they have the same range or not.

PDACG=Pivot dash attack cancel grab.

 

[Attila_]

Im not mashing a momentum cancel, I'm mashing di/Sdi.

Half the time airdodge is the best anyway.

 

[etecoon]

Does the PDACG give the same grab range boost as if you were to just do a sliding pivot grab? Both make you slide but i can't tell whether they have the same range or not.

reverse boost grab makes you slide further away than a standard boost grab, which also means that you get less range on the grab as it comes out when you're farther.

 

[WindMajor]

What's up Snakes?

I have a couple of questions I want to ask and I'd like you guys to help me answer them. They're all related to Norfair by the way.

1) How does your character fare with just the stage? Does your character benefit from the layout and the numerous hazards or do they normally hinder you?
2) How does your character generally fare on this stage against certain matchups? Does he excel in a lot of them and only has a few bad MUs, or is he generally bad on this stage against a large portion of the cast?
3) What are some general strategies for your character on this stage? Controlling the center? Stalling? Staying mobile?
4) Overall, would you say that this stage is mostly good for your character, mostly bad, or depends?

Thanks in advance!

Spoiler

This mass survey across most of the character boards is admin approved.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Why don't Snakes use airdodge to momentum cancel?
is there something I'm missing? Not even Ally does?

 

[Attila_]

Airdodge doesn't cancel momentum.

It just allows you to jump quicker.

Only useful when you stuff up your di and go horizontally.

 

[F A N G]

Why don't Snakes use airdodge to momentum cancel?
is there something I'm missing? Not even Ally does?

I do, but that's probably not what you mean.

AD is only better for horizontal MC, and only because it ends faster and thus you can jump sooner. Snakes might not do it because they want to save their jump, and since AD doesn't MC, using an aerial would save them, whereas they'd have to AD + jump to live via that method. It should make you live longer though.

It doesn't work for vertical MC, because you can't FF an AD. That means an aerial is better, which aerial (Uair/Bair) is mostly preference, one might be slightly better than the other, but I use Uair so I don't accidentally Fair.

They might not AD ever because you could get a habit of always AD after getting hit, and dying off the top sooner than you should.

I hope that made sense

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[Kuro~]

What's up Diddys?

I have a couple of questions I want to ask and I'd like you guys to help me answer them. They're all related to Norfair by the way.

1) How does your character fare with just the stage? Does your character benefit from the layout and the numerous hazards or do they normally hinder you?
2) How does your character generally fare on this stage against certain matchups? Does he excel in a lot of them and only has a few bad MUs, or is he generally bad on this stage against a large portion of the cast?
3) What are some general strategies for your character on this stage? Controlling the center? Stalling? Staying mobile?
4) Overall, would you say that this stage is mostly good for your character, mostly bad, or depends?

Thanks in advance!

Spoiler

This mass survey across most of the character boards is admin approved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrtqOrRRsU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luT6605m-Bk&feature=channel_video_title

 

[theONEjanitor]

i was under the impression that whole point of doing aerials when getting knocked horizontally was to allow you to jump faster
and that only certain character specific moves actually affected momentum

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I think bair is the safest option if you don't know if you are going vertical or horizontal though. =D I'm not sure if u-air is better or not for vertical though. o-o

 

[Attila_]

I haven't tested it, but uair seems to work best for vertical.

Ally always used it too.

For horizontal, airdodge followed by jump airdodge is best.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Yeah I thought so, but I wasn't completely sure, & how does d-air do for vertical? I know it auto fast falls, but i'm not completely sure how well it does.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What's up Diddys?

I have a couple of questions I want to ask and I'd like you guys to help me answer them. They're all related to Norfair by the way.

1) How does your character fare with just the stage? Does your character benefit from the layout and the numerous hazards or do they normally hinder you?
2) How does your character generally fare on this stage against certain matchups? Does he excel in a lot of them and only has a few bad MUs, or is he generally bad on this stage against a large portion of the cast?
3) What are some general strategies for your character on this stage? Controlling the center? Stalling? Staying mobile?
4) Overall, would you say that this stage is mostly good for your character, mostly bad, or depends?

Thanks in advance!

Spoiler

This mass survey across most of the character boards is admin approved.

Diddy's? I hope you didn't post in the wrong place by mistake. Sure is taking awhile to do this "survey" when you got to the falco boards awhile back. I never played with Snake on Norfair, so no judgement on my part.

Now I feel like taking a look at what SuSa said once. I thought he said that for some weird reason fast falling aerials horizontally seemed to reduce horizontal knockback as well.

 

[Attila_]

It's all about angles.

You gotta aim for the corner.

If you di medial to the corner (so you would hot the vertical killzone before the horizontal one), you want to fastfall, as this will make you more towards the corner, increasing the distance to the killzone.

If you di below the corner (so you would hit the horizontal blast zone before the vertical one), then fastfalling will reduce the distance to the blast zone making you die earlier. In this case, snake should airdodge jump airdodge.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Although, that has me wondering what is the best combination of DI and momentum canceling. From what I have noticed, the amount of momentum you cancel horizontally is small compared to what you cancel vertically. So aiming your DI slightly above the corner should lead to better results than aiming slightly below.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Why does jab-ftilt only work on certain characters?

How many frames of hitstun does jab have?

it is possible to get a guaranteed (or more or less guaranteed) tick-throw with snake? i.e jab and then grab them on the first frame after they leave hitstun. jab-grab works a whole lot, but I think its just because you've conditioned them to shield, and I don't want to make it a habit in higher level play (if it doesn't work)

Also, whats the best way to punish Falco/Pikachu (mostly falco, because of his jab) spotdodge. Am I expected to just learn the strict timing of how to punish them in the 2 frame window in which they are vulnerable? usual snake **** like jab bait ftilt doesn't work (they can shield or jab before). rapid jab works sometimes, but sometimes they can powershield it after spotdodging, which is dumb. same for things like dair, just depends on what frame you began the move.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Why does jab-ftilt only work on certain characters?

How many frames of hitstun does jab have?

The hitstun varies from character to character due to each person having different traits. I'm not sure what exactly affects hitstun, but the end result is that personal traits changes it. For the most part, I did not copy down the exact hitstun time, but it was around 15-17 frames hitstun on a fresh jab. On a fully decayed jab, just subtract off a frame for a character.

it is possible to get a guaranteed (or more or less guaranteed) tick-throw with snake? i.e jab and then grab them on the first frame after they leave hitstun. jab-grab works a whole lot, but I think its just because you've conditioned them to shield, and I don't want to make it a habit in higher level play (if it doesn't work)

I tried looking at Utilt, but since every character exited hitstun before the Utilt even came out, grab therefore cannot possibly be a guranteed hit after jab.

 

[Attila_]

Although, that has me wondering what is the best combination of DI and momentum canceling. From what I have noticed, the amount of momentum you cancel horizontally is small compared to what you cancel vertically. So aiming your DI slightly above the corner should lead to better results than aiming slightly below.

yes.

snake is amazing at vertical momentum cancelling, but terrible horizontally.

always aim up.

 

[WindMajor]

Diddy's? I hope you didn't post in the wrong place by mistake. Sure is taking awhile to do this "survey" when you got to the falco boards awhile back. I never played with Snake on Norfair, so no judgement on my part.

Oh ****!!! My bad. Forgot to change the template name.

And yeah, I send them out in groups, and compile everything before moving on to the next group. Takes forever.


Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrtqOrRRsU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luT6605m-Bk&feature=channel_video_title

****ING MVD LMAO

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I always like Norfair, because C4, & mines gave me awesome stage control. ^_^ Also I didn't do that bad against MK there either. =D

 

[Kuro~]

It's harder for mk to juggles us there imo. But at the same time it's pretty easy for him to time us out there LOL.

 

[WindMajor]

I always thought that Norfair would be kinda good for Snake because of how well he could control multiple platforms with his mines and his long ranged attacks. However, I'm not so sure how much the hazards would affect Snake's game, in the same effect as Brinstar would. Snake would have to be airborne for quite some time... I wouldn't know if the pros would outweigh the cons. Also, I don't know **** about matchups, lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The stage is large enough that snake being in the air is not a huge problem. With all the platforms, characters cannot really use their ground mobility to catch up with snake. They are forced to either FF onto lower platforms or jump up to the higher ones. In which case characters with high air mobility are able to keep up with snake after knockback more readily than any ground based character. Every character will have a zone where they can reach too quickly, but for most they are rather encumbered on this stage.

I certainly agree that this is a good stage for snake to be on. What I mentioned before means it gives snake more leeway in his recovery time. The multitudes of ways in which snake can gain control over the stage certainly gives him an edge as well.

But, I am unsure how others fare on this stage as too. In my opinion they have just as much control over the stage as snake might have if they stick to the areas that snake cannot get too himself. If one waits patiently, they can generally work themselves into a position to attack Snake safely. For example. Snake cannot reach the upper platforms at all and be any real threat from the bottom. His nades work only to the middle platforms and that is about it. If he camps the top platforms he has more camping power since his nades will now reach the entire stage. Although, the platform before snake is rather dangerous if the opponent gets there. They can wait snake out without any real thread to his camping.

 

[theONEjanitor]

since jab comes out on frame 3, and every characters forward and back roll invincibility comes out on frame 4 at the earliest (except jiggs, i think?), whats stopping us from d-throwing then jabbing a **** load more than we do?

do the rolls just move too far/fast?

I understand rising attacks and doing nothing are still options (the latter of which can still be punished with jab on some characters), but it seems like jab should work.

i dunno just theorycrafting, i could be off base

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

-Snake stands up too high for most characters after dthrow anyway for jab to work. You can jab above ZSS all you want, but that jab won't hit unless they get up.
-Also, all options after Dthrow are frame 1 or 2 invincibility at start. Marth is the single exception to that rule with later invincibility on his forward roll. Which is the reason why we can ftilt him out of a forward roll from Dthrow.

 

[Kuro~]

Snake can jab on wario if he hesitates even for a fram afterwards. So it's a good option select/confirm method cuz you can jab and then react to w/e they did by buffering since he gets extra frames of lag b4 he can move. It's why he's so easy to techchase.

 

[rahsosprout]

Snake can jab on wario if he hesitates even for a fram afterwards. So it's a good option select/confirm method cuz you can jab and then react to w/e they did by buffering since he gets extra frames of lag b4 he can move. It's why he's so easy to techchase.

Buffering the jab also works on MK, DDD, Wolf among others (given that they do not buffer a roll/get-up attack).

It's outlined in SuSa's old thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804

I found that most people get caught off guard by the jab follow-up and I get jab1>ftilt1>ftilt2/utilt quite often (ftilt2 or utilt depending on whether or not they are near kill %).

 

[Attila_]

i loved norfair until people learnt about timeouts... then that stage became very bad very quickly.

-Snake stands up too high for most characters after dthrow anyway for jab to work. You can jab above ZSS all you want, but that jab won't hit unless they get up.
-Also, all options after Dthrow are frame 1 or 2 invincibility at start. Marth is the single exception to that rule with later invincibility on his forward roll. Which is the reason why we can ftilt him out of a forward roll from Dthrow.

i remember trying this on marth and could never get it to work...

Snake can jab on wario if he hesitates even for a fram afterwards. So it's a good option select/confirm method cuz you can jab and then react to w/e they did by buffering since he gets extra frames of lag b4 he can move. It's why he's so easy to techchase.

his getup attack doesn't have invincibility until after frame 4?

 

[F A N G]

EDIT: Nevermind, should've read more carefully

 

[Kuro~]

i loved norfair until people learnt about timeouts... then that stage became very bad very quickly.



i remember trying this on marth and could never get it to work...



his getup attack doesn't have invincibility until after frame 4?

That's why i said if he hesitates. You can pretty much jab...and then respond to the corresponding action he chose. And everyone of his things has like an extra number frames tagged onto them. That's why it's so easy to tech chase on reaction. After hrnut told me about that fact i never really bothered predicting anymore cuz you don't need to.

 

[rahsosprout]

Who's a good secondary for Snake?

I've been playing around a bit with MK and Marth.

 

[etecoon]

MK

then you realize that you're better off just maining MK

then you get bored

and realize you're better off just quitting the game

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

i remember trying this on marth and could never get it to work...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4JJ7Goah0
It does works. I'm not spewing BS about this.

However, there is a slight problem. Ftilt doesn't hit marth normally when he is on the ground laying flat. So if marth doesn't buffer his forward roll as you buffer your ftilt, it is possible to miss. If you ftilt about a frame or two too early before marth rolls forward he will be low enough on the ground in the first couple of frames of his roll to completely miss the Ftilt. Likewise if you are a frame or two too slow his invincibility frames will cause the Ftilt to whiff anyway.

Who's a good secondary for Snake?

MK's optimal potential has no bad match-ups. The worst is an even match-up. He even doesn't have any bad stages either. So you can either Main MK or just pick him up for situational match-ups you really hate to play.

Other than that, Falco covers pretty much all of Snake's bad match-ups. DDD and Olimar. Falco can take care of both of them. Snake takes care of Falco's bad match-ups, ICs and pikachu. I don't' really play anyone else good, so I have no opinions.

 

[rahsosprout]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4JJ7Goah0
It does works. I'm not spewing BS about this.

However, there is a slight problem. Ftilt doesn't hit marth normally when he is on the ground laying flat. So if marth doesn't buffer his forward roll as you buffer your ftilt, it is possible to miss. If you ftilt about a frame or two too early before marth rolls forward he will be low enough on the ground in the first couple of frames of his roll to completely miss the Ftilt. Likewise if you are a frame or two too slow his invincibility frames will cause the Ftilt to whiff anyway.

Ok so I couldn't really tell which situation was which in your video but I think I get the general idea.

I just want to clarify. So his roll doesn't get invincibility til frame 4 and our f-tilt's hitbox isn't out until frame 4.

If both are buffered then we miss
but as long as we initiate the f-tilt up to 3 frames before he initiates the roll, then we hit?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If both are buffered then we miss
but as long as we initiate the f-tilt up to 3 frames before he initiates the roll, then we hit?

It's the other way around. So long as both of you make the roll and tilt come out after dthrow as soon as possible (buffering), ftilt will hit marth out of his forward roll.

Here is a quick sort of diagram after a Dthrow and both of you buffer the stuff.
Frame 1 - Marth starts rolling
2 - Snake's ftilt animation starts
3 -
4 -
5 - Ftilt hitbox comes out and hits marth.

 

[Kuro~]

Wow that's so good. Does ftilt hit if he just lays grounded? Or is that what you meant by your first sentence in your post above?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

No, ftilt will not hit marth laying on the ground.

Say you have just grabbed Marth. You proceed to Dthrow marth. Just before the Dthrow animation ends, you buffer a ftilt. The marth just happens to do the same thing and buffers a forward roll. In this situation, you can be guaranteed that Ftilt will hit Marth before marth goes into invincibilty frames.

If you fail to buffer a ftilt, but marth does buffer a forward roll, you will not hit marth.
If you buffer a ftilt, but marth does not, you will not hit marth.

 

[rahsosprout]

It's the other way around. So long as both of you make the roll and tilt come out after dthrow as soon as possible (buffering), ftilt will hit marth out of his forward roll.

Here is a quick sort of diagram after a Dthrow and both of you buffer the stuff.
Frame 1 - Marth starts rolling
2 - Snake's ftilt animation starts
3 -
4 -
5 - Ftilt hitbox comes out and hits marth.

Maybe I'm just basing everything off of an incorrect premise, so...

I have Snake's f-tilt hitbox coming out at frame 4. (vs. 5th frame that you have)

and this is what I have as Marth's frame data:

Back Roll
Total: 35
Invincible frames 4 – 23

Front Roll
Total: 35
Invincible frames 4 – 19

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What you just posted is for marth's regular rolls. Like when you press shield and move the control stick to the side.

There is more than one type of roll. There is a roll started from teching the ground. There is one from when Marth is laying on the ground face up and even a different one for when marth is laying on the ground face down. After Snake's Dthrow, Marth is laying on the ground facing up. That forward roll does not gain invincibility until frame 6 on the move.

Also, anytime Snake uses dthrow on any character, they can act out of the dthrow one frame faster than Snake can (which is why in my diagram snake's ftilt starts on that number 2 and the hits on number 5).