Official Metaknight Discussion

[Nanaki]

Garchomp has 42% total dominance, so I DID mean 51% total dominance by MK. You're statistics clearly show thats not the case, so.... yeah.....

I do feel that this whole "How dominant is too dominant" thing IS a really important question though. A community agreement on that justifies more of a ban rather than yelling at eachother about MK facts. I mean, if the whole community finally agrees on "When a character has X% total dominance, they are broken and banworthy", then all thats left to do is wait and see what happens, no more yelling and ranting and Omni exploding from anger.

I just think this works out the best because NEITHER side should have any objections to something like this. Anti-Ban will feel as if MK will never reach the problematic %, and pro-ban will feel as if he'll (quickly/eventually) get there and get unarguably banned. Sure, the deal itself of what dominance is too much will be a big arguement, but its one topic to be settled on, and once its settled, thats all there is to it, there is very little that could throw this off.

Just throwing that out there~

From a pro-ban perspective, this kind of thing has basically already happened, just not with 1 single number. During/after the last MK ban poll, anti-ban wrote up a list of arguments as to why MK should not be banned. In this thread, all kinds of data concerning those arguments have pretty undeniably shown that those arguments have been nullified and the previous anti-ban reasoning voided. What's the response?

"That was then, this is now"

Once you make your magical 'dominance number', if (and when) it's reached, there will be a huge ****storm from the MK mains anti-ban stating that the number was made irrationally, that it's irrelevant, and that things have changed or that 'we never agreed to that number' or 'the data is skewed, use this cherry-picked data instead'.

Basically, from the pro-ban side, there's absolutely no reason to believe that any number that's set now will actually have an effect in the future based on past history.

The evidence is in front of you, MK flat out breaks the game unless you put MULTIPLE limitations on him, some of which are extremely controversial and anti-competitive in nature. The character is banworthy, and there's not much (any?) evidence to suggest otherwise.

@Crow! - nice post, the jumps in MK activity in national months are scary-consistent. You could try to attribute that to the fact that there are more points to earn in national months, but no other character follows that trend really at all. In fact, some of the big names actually DROP in national months.

 

[Espy Rose]

Guys, if we don't make a final decision on Metaknight before the MLG ruleset, what then? How will MLG respond? Oh, I dunno, probably BBR ruleset. WE DON'T WANT THIS!

People should read through this several times.

Imagine it: Brawl in MLG, with scrooging and planking legal.

 

[salaboB]

People should read through this several times.

Imagine it: Brawl in MLG, with scrooging and planking legal.

Might be enough to convince a large number of people that Brawl is not a good tournament game.

 

[BSP]

Either way, we really need to start taking some action on this.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm afraid tripping alone could do just that, salaboB.

What I said would just confirm it to the "people".

 

[DMG]

The way I see it, people like me would ruin MLG or make it not fun for people to watch.

Do I care? No. Money Talks.

 

[OverLade]

If MK isn't banned by MLG, he sure as hell will be afterwards...

 

[fkacyan]

Scrooging is no different than circle camping. Just ban the technique altogether. It's not like MK's the only one who can do it anyways.

 

[laki]

Scrooging is no different than circle camping. Just ban the technique altogether. It's not like MK's the only one who can do it anyways.

Propose a legit way of doing so sir.

 

[fkacyan]

Propose a legit way of doing so sir.

The same way you call somebody on excessive stalling, broski.

 

[BSP]

I still have yet to see someone get called for excessive stalling.

 

[salaboB]

I'm afraid tripping alone could do just that, salaboB.

What I said would just confirm it to the "people".

I doubt tripping alone would do it.

Watching an MK hit someone then go plank for 6 minutes in the final?

That would do it.

(Though who am I kidding, it'd probably be MK vs. MK. Might be interesting to see if that is the case or not, really.)

 

[fkacyan]

I still have yet to see someone get called for excessive stalling.

The rules exist. Not using them is your own fault, not the game's fault.

There is absolutely no reason why scrooging wouldn't be excessive stalling.

 

[salaboB]

The rules exist. Not using them is your own fault, not the game's fault.

There is absolutely no reason why scrooging wouldn't be excessive stalling.

To get away from a trap set up at one edge (Like c4) to where it's clear to get back onto the stage, maybe?

Or is scrooging specifically going back after going under once?

Edit: Banana trap might be worthwhile to avoid, too. Both these examples are characters MK is likely to be facing if he's not dittoing.

 

[DMG]

Do you have to touch the stage before each glide? Are you allowed to glide under it fully 1 time, and then on the second time you pass the halfway mark and go back to the original edge?

Are you allowed to go under the stage as much as you want without touching the edges?

 

[Orion*]

I doubt tripping alone would do it.

Watching an MK hit someone then go plank for 6 minutes in the final?

That would do it.

(Though who am I kidding, it'd probably be MK vs. MK. Might be interesting to see if that is the case or not, really.)

since you know. all of our nationals end up like that.

 

[HeroMystic]

I believe I said this before: Scrooging =/= Going under the stage. Scrooging is bypassing the LGL by going under the stage while planking.

Going under the stage, by itself, is not a bannable offense.

 

[DMG]

Define Planking

 

[Overswarm]

Scrooging is no different than circle camping. Just ban the technique altogether. It's not like MK's the only one who can do it anyways.

MK is the only one that can do it effectively, actually; Pit is the only other character that can even attempt it, and it is far from perfect. Additionally, his planking ability has shown to not be foolproof or even close to it.

 

[fkacyan]

Stalling a match for 30 seconds when it's last hit and you're leading by 2% and scrooging for the first three minutes after you land one downsmash are two easily differentiable situations. I'm not going to bother entertaining the "But then they just do it 1 second short of the definition of excessive" crap. We're humans and not god**** computers for a reason - We can make calls based on the situation at hand and don't always have to have everything outlined for us like a bunch of children.

As far as boring games are concerned, I'm far more worried about characters like Falco firing lasers and phantasming away all day than MKs planking.

 

[DMG]

Stalling a match for 30 seconds when it's last hit and you're leading by 2% and scrooging for the first three minutes after you land one downsmash are two easily differentiable situations. I'm not going to bother entertaining the "But then they just do it 1 second short of the definition of excessive" crap. We're humans and not god**** computers for a reason - We can make calls based on the situation at hand and don't always have to have everything outlined for us like a bunch of children.

As far as boring games are concerned, I'm far more worried about characters like Falco firing lasers and phantasming away all day than MKs planking.

Stalling for 30 seconds? If you think that is acceptable, wouldn't that just be called camping?

Stalling is banned. If what you are doing is legal, it's probably not stalling.

Judgement calls are BAD. Look at Dojo vs DEHF at Genesis. They had a panel talk about it, and some people ACTUALLY thought he was stalling. Even though it's pretty blindingly obvious that he wasn't stalling, what if people like that were put in charge to decide? Hmm? HMMMMM?

 

[salaboB]

since you know. all of our nationals end up like that.

Don't the nationals tend to have lgl? Also, they don't have quite as much money and I doubt people have been willing to commit to playing as effectively as they possibly can, given how boring it is to play that way (Think about what's known to be most effective in Brawl).

The discussion is based on the likelihood that they'll go with the SBR recommended ruleset, which has no lgl -- and given the discussion on planking and the chances that the top players attending will a) Be taking it very seriously and b) Have practiced to figure out the absolute best chance they can give themselves to win...

You'll probably see MK being played better than you ever have before (Where better means winning regardless of how boring the strategy is to watch or annoying it is to play)

 

[iRJi]

The same way you call somebody on excessive stalling, broski.

The thing is, there is a fine line between recovering smartly and scrooging. That's the issue. The best rule so far is when you scrooge, you need to touch the stage. A better rule would be to give a one minute time limit onto when you can do it.

Lets say Metaknight flies under the stage at 6:04. he can't do it again until 5:04. Just another way to go about it that is effective. The first rule is more applicable though

 

[etecoon]

Did.....you just really tell us to go ROB against MK?

I really didn't think anyone would be obtuse enough to take that post seriously but WOW

swordgard is the one who said ROB can stop MK from scrooging >_>

 

[theunabletable]

Define Planking

Define using Jiggs' rising Pound as stalling (in Melee, I mean).

 

[salaboB]

swordgard is the one who said ROB can stop MK from scrooging >_>

He actually said you could hit him while he was scrooging, not that it would stop him from doing it (Presumably a smart MK wouldn't scrooge while ROB was in position to try to laser him)

 

[DMG]

Define using Jiggs' rising Pound as stalling.

This one is easier by a long shot. Jigglypuff can only stall with it when she uses it consecutively. She is forced to Side B... RIGHT after her Side B... or she starts to fall. So actually in this case, it would be kinda easy to tell if someone was stalling with it, because you are forced to take certain actions as specific times for it to be able to stall in the first place.

MK isn't forced to Glide under the stage and grab the edge, he's not forced to go back and forth, he has a LOT of freedom in his actions.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The rules exist. Not using them is your own fault, not the game's fault.

There is absolutely no reason why scrooging wouldn't be excessive stalling.

Do you have an example of someone who should have been DQed because of stalling?

 

[Tristan_win]

Here's a interesting thought, what do you think would happen if SBR continue to keep meta knight like he is but if MLG banned him.

Would people follow SBR or MLG, OR do you think people would sway the MLG to bring meta knight back?

 

[theunabletable]

@DMG: Fair enough. I'll agree that it's almost impossble to objectively define stalling. But wouldn't a ledge grab limit pretty much destroy the hardcore MK planking that you presented in your thread?

 

[MarKO X]

I have a question:

assuming MLG takes the SBR Recommended Rule set version 2.0, how many people are willing to enter an MLG event and try to outplank their opponents with MetaKnight for $60,000?

 

[Kaffei]

Here's a interesting thought, what do you think would happen if SBR continue to keep meta knight like he is but if MLG banned him.

Would people follow SBR or MLG, OR do you think people would sway the MLG to bring meta knight back?

I think that the SBR would follow MLG's decision.

 

[Kitamerby]

Do you have an example of someone who should have been DQed because of stalling?

Probably M2K in his set vs Meep. Smart play, and he was technically hittable, but it was still really, really gay.

I have a question:

assuming MLG takes the SBR Recommended Rule set version 2.0, how many people are willing to enter an MLG event and try to outplank their opponents with MetaKnight for $60,000?

I'd plank for $60,000.

 

[Overswarm]

Regular Season Prizes
1st - $2,500
2nd - $1,500
3rd - $1,000
4th - $700
5th - $500
6th - $350
7th - $250
8th - $200

National Championship Prizes
1st - $12,500
2nd - $7,500
3rd - $5,000
4th - $3,500
5th - $2,500
6th - $1,750
7th - $1,250
8th - $1,000

 

[Kaffei]

That's still a lot of money

 

[HeroMystic]

Define Planking

It's pretty simple. It's excessive ledge-camping to maintain a % lead.

What isn't simple is defining excessive.

 

[TeeVee]

why are people so worried about planking in mlg...theres obv gonna be a ledge count rule

 

[MarKO X]

lol, ok

assuming MLG takes the SBR Recommended Rule set version 2.0, how many people are willing to enter an MLG event and try to outplank their opponents with MetaKnight for $12,500?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

well it wouldn't be for 12,500 either it would be for more since they can win that one and other tournaments

 

[Kaffei]

lol, ok

assuming MLG takes the SBR Recommended Rule set version 2.0, how many people are willing to enter an MLG event and try to outplank their opponents with MetaKnight for $12,500?

Can you link me the Ruleset