Official Metaknight Discussion

[swordgard]

This is 100% wrong. Who lied to you? I stopped doing meta banned events(even though it raised my attendance) because i found another way to keep meta legal but weaken him to a point where he is "more fair"

Which in itself was 100% scrub.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I should scrooge people with pit.

I think that's perfectly fine, though. Let's argue ban philosophy. Personally, I've said how I feel about the ban before. I think that because MK requries micromanaging to fit in with our vision of how the game ought to be played, he should be banned, or instead, we should stop trying to microban him and let him reign.

No LGL, no scrooging or planking rules, no IDC ban, nothing. Let him reign or ban him.

IDC I disagree with; otherwise, yeah. Play MK without any rules holding him back (excluding obvious glitches) and see how that goes. I mean, he can scrooge diddy 99% of the time, he can plank falco, scrooge snake I believe, plank ICs, Plank anyone... where did those "even" matchups go?

well then finish your video so you can make him broken. Go out of the thread and give us that fix all for our brawl problems OS, I WANT MY APPROACHES ****IT.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. Gonna repeat this at the end of the post.

I know this seems dumb at this point, but if MK is even banned, I'll lead the Snake ban movement.

I know they're not the same, but if MK is banned while Snake is still in I think a lot of us will rage pretty hard :/

Snake has obvious and very abusable weaknesses such as his large size, his mediocre recovery, and his complete and utter lack of an air game. He also has counters. Comparing MK to snake is, to pull this bull**** card again which everyone loves, comparing Akuma to Sagat in SF2HDR.

If you ban one character, your gonna have to ban another.

See above.

If your not ADHD level with all of this training time, your training the wrong way. Don't go blame your lack of talent, seriously, just step it up. Everyone can. There is probably nobody in the entire world(dead serious) who takes this game more seriously than I do, and I can tell you that even the top players like ADHD and Ally could be much better if they knew more stuff, and that it is very possible to reach their level solely through training the right way.

I love how we ignore the entire smash community except the very top level. If we had tournaments where only the very top 0.0001% showed up, would this be good? Of course not, who's gonna be giving money up for the pot? The very top of the game (at this point M2K, Ally, ADHD, maybe a few others?) would not make for good tournament play; what does this is the rest of the guys who pump money into tournaments they know they can't win.

Nado isn't broken.

AFAIK, Nado is kinda like DDD's CG. It really breaks some matchups (Mario Bros, DDD, etc.).

well then finish your video so you can make him broken. Go out of the thread and give us that fix all for our brawl problems OS, I WANT MY APPROACHES ****IT.

OVERSWARM
MAKE YOUR ****ING VIDEO ALREADY
SHOW US THIS ****
GOD ****ING DAMMIT

IMO, don't ban or vote on MK being banned until this AT is demonstrated. Two reasons. 1. This could give clinching evidence to either side; either it opens up a bunch of semi-viable or viable chars to being viable and/or MK counters, or it potentially makes MK even more retardedly beastly than he already is. From what I hear about Dash->Dsmash, this is pretty busted. 2. It gives OS motivation to make his vid. :V



Aaaanyways. I'm gonna stick to my old statement and say, "Let's pick up MK". I know I have, and main him when I play vBrawl. But if we flood the scene with MKs, what happens then? Either smash dies, it turns out MK isn't too broken, or anti-ban slowly dwindles to Omni, M2K, and Swordgard. In either of the more likely situations, we get an "I told you so"; in the other, the problem is solved.

 

[Pierce7d]

If your not ADHD level with all of this training time, your training the wrong way. Don't go blame your lack of talent, seriously, just step it up. Everyone can. There is probably nobody in the entire world(dead serious) who takes this game more seriously than I do, and I can tell you that even the top players like ADHD and Ally could be much better if they knew more stuff, and that it is very possible to reach their level solely through training the right way.

If this is how you truly feel, then please, teach the entire world how to fight MK the correct way, since we're obviously doing it wrong, or training wrong. You seemed to have missed my entire point Swordgard. If no one takes this game more serious than you do (bold statement, but I'll run with it), then why aren't you the best player? Why haven't you beaten Ally? Why haven't you clocked in the hours? Why haven't you come up with the strategies?

It's simple. It's not that simple.

The bottom line is, MK ***** this game. Yes, there are players who are on a level of play that seems to have surpassed the MK boundary. But to even imagine that boundary will not be there for the duration of Brawl's competative existence is foolishness.

I'll give you this. If you're willing to teach the whole world how to "train the right way," and we all start beating MKs (who, let's not forget, are also practicing and training), then perhaps I will consider your words to have some real validity.

6Mizu, because the top players are split between different characters at the moment, MK hasn't won 70% of tourneys (I think, but it's close. It might actually be that much)

But he's probably won 70% of tourney sets he's used in or greater. Consider that I've used MK to defeat MUs that would have otherwise been very difficult, with relative ease, even in tourney.

mariobrouser,

I was careful not to say the people did not quit solely because of MK. It is unquestionable that while Brawl is quite a good game, it has many faults. I acknowledge this, and believe me, if we could turn off tripping without hacks, there would be no debate such as the one we're having right now. However, MK is a large contributing factor.

 

[Tien2500]

... Does anyone else feel like the people saying "play better" sound like the people who say "tires don exit?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

... Does anyone else feel like the people saying "play better" sound like the people who say "tires don exit?

Absolutely. Except on the other end of the spectrum.

If this is how you truly feel, then please, teach the entire world how to fight MK the correct way, since we're obviously doing it wrong, or training wrong. You seemed to have missed my entire point Swordgard. If no one takes this game more serious than you do (bold statement, but I'll run with it), then why aren't you the best player? Why haven't you beaten Ally? Why haven't you clocked in the hours? Why haven't you come up with the strategies?

It's simple. It's not that simple.

The bottom line is, MK ***** this game. Yes, there are players who are on a level of play that seems to have surpassed the MK boundary. But to even imagine that boundary will not be there for the duration of Brawl's competative existence is foolishness.

I'll give you this. If you're willing to teach the whole world how to "train the right way," and we all start beating MKs (who, let's not forget, are also practicing and training), then perhaps I will consider your words to have some real validity.

6Mizu, because the top players are split between different characters at the moment, MK hasn't won 70% of tourneys (I think, but it's close. It might actually be that much)

But he's probably won 70% of tourney sets he's used in or greater. Consider that I've used MK to defeat MUs that would have otherwise been very difficult, with relative ease, even in tourney.

mariobrouser,

I was careful not to say the people did not quit solely because of MK. It is unquestionable that while Brawl is quite a good game, it has many faults. I acknowledge this, and believe me, if we could turn off tripping without hacks, there would be no debate such as the one we're having right now. However, MK is a large contributing factor.

This is a good post.

 

[6Mizu]

Good post Pierce.

This is picky, but I think the people "quitting due to MK" can be debated. It is very probable, but maybe they just got fed up with the campiness/play of brawl in general, or maybe another character they can't handle, etc.

I agree that people quitting is definitely a problem, but we can't just assume that's it's all due to MK.

Of course. People have many reasons for quitting and it is a big problem. We need to attract people to play brawl, brawl +, etc. not the opposite...............but that doesn't necessarily mean it's MK fault people decide not to play.

Out of all of the people in Louisiana that have quit Brawl, NONE of them quit because of Meta Knight. That much I can assure you.

see?


Also, it's been almost 15 day since Hylain start this thread...and there is about 3700 posts about this stupid topic. Because some don't want to understand that MK doesn't need ban!

 

[Kuraudo]

I really like Pierce's way of coming across, in regards to the Pro Ban side of things. As dead as this horse is, the few kicks that we get now and then keep the debate alive, as far as I'm concerned.

Looking forward to hearing what else people have to say.

 

[RDK]

... Does anyone else feel like the people saying "play better" sound like the people who say "tires don exit?

Are you dumb?

Those statements are essentially mutually exclusive.

I hate it when a single pro/anti-ban members come in and make fools of themselves, then cause the opposing side to laugh at the whole group. :/

Dude, I literally can't take anything you say seriously anymore.

Remember like 10 pages back when I spanked you for dreaming up that ridiculous criteria?

For every fool in anti-ban (Omni) there's about 10 in pro-ban (many of you reading this).

 

[Nanaki]

Nice read, Pierce! Did you write that on the fly?

see?


Also, it's been almost 15 day since Hylain start this thread...and there is about 3700 posts about this stupid topic. Because some don't want to understand that MK doesn't need ban!

Yeah, I'm sure they're all arguing it because they don't understand the situation. What a profound insight you've provided us with!

I have to say, the whole 'anyone can be the next ADHD/Ally' idea is a pretty big slap in the face to those people who have been trying their ***** off to compete with someone that's not MK.

 

[Omni]

I know I'm not OS, but I want to answer this.

It's a loaded question because the question itself only allows for two answers: Yes, he bans because of dominance, or yes, he bans because of brokenness.

Just sayin', it's a wording problem. Though why OS didn't say that to begin with confuses me.

You're the second person who said this.

It allows for 4 answers.
1.) Yes to one. No to the other.
2.) No to one. Yes to the other.
3.) Yes to both.
4.) No to both.

Then an explanation.

Not sure why people are only seeing 2 direct answers from my questions.

@RDK: You butthole.

 

[moyshe]

All the kids that are pro ban are just bad.

 

[Overswarm]

Hm. Good question. No, I wouldn't be okay with these specific results.

Good!

Now we've established that the actual results aren't acceptable to you; you hinge your beliefs of "it's okay" on the outliers present in the belief that either

A) other people can reach their status via skill

or

B) these characters are national contenders above, on, or near Metaknight.

Ally and ADHD do several things for the community:

1.) They are proof that Snake and Diddy can be great contenders against Metaknight and the rest of the cast.
2.) They give Snake and Diddy player's motivation to reach or even overstep their abilities
3.) They show that they are able to take 1st place in Nationals and be just as tourny viable as Metaknight.

These are the main three I can think off from the top of my head.

Well, think up more because 1 and 3 are incorrect and 2 is kind of irrelevant.

Looking at 1 and 3, we can say that you're basically saying "these characters are viable", meaning you're focusing on option B listed above. No mention of A yet, so I'll ignore it.

You say they're "proof", but you've yet to back it up.

If you're assuming that these two players winning with their respective characters shows that a victory screen can be shown for non-MK, bravo. I think you're leaning more towards the idea that "these characters can reliably beat Metaknight in such a fashion that they can be chosen as viable characters for the matchup".

1 Meta Knight (179 top8, 126 top4, 72 top2, 75 wins, 452 total) - 4020.7
2 Snake (131 top8, 71 top4, 39 top2, 48 wins, 289 total) - 2024.0

A Rank «Overused» 20.67%
3 Diddy Kong (76 top8, 31 top4, 23 top2, 23 wins, 153 total) - 1325.6

There's the most recent data for these characters. Ouch! Doesn't look good for Diddy and Snake, but there are a lot of regionals in the mix here. MKs 75 wins trumps Snake's 48 and decimates Diddy's 23, but 2nd place doesn't change either! MKs seem to be doing better across the board in tournaments in general, so let's look closer:

That's the results of all tournaments with 100+ players to date. Doesn't look like they're really shining there, either.

MK is clearly doing leagues better than them, so even if MK CAN be realibly beaten by these characters...... it doesn't make them good choices. MK is still the better choice. You can pick MK and ignore the CP system, or pick Snake and Diddy and get destroyed by it. This is just a drop in the bucket, but let's ignore this for now too.

So do Snake and Diddy REALLY do well against MK, or is it just the players?

Ally recently 3-0'd an MK in Canada that got 2nd place... with captain falcon. Swordgard and HolyNightmare were both in attendance if I recall correctly (stop me if I'm wrong) so I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Ally is really good. The "outlier" thing exists, believe it or not; if you're just plain good at smash you can beat people even at a disadvantage. This doesn't mean the character is good or has a good matchup; Falcon gets wreeeeecked by MK. Ally is just really good. I've gotten 1st in my pools using random just because I'm better than my opponents. Anyone can attest to this.

Can we simply trust your judgement?

You're joking, right? Snake, Diddy, Wario, Ice Climbers, and Falco do just fine against him. Watch out for poor statements like these.

Watch out for poor statements like these indeed! We haven't seen Ice Climbers do well against MK in a long time so I don't even know HOW they got there.

So, no appealing to authority. We're going to have to use data. Watch out Omni, this involves pictures and numbers.

Let's look at Snake first!

Looking at this we see how Snake has done over time at 150+ players events. That means the big important ones!

Snake HAS done fairly well, but as you can see he's not doing nearly as well as MK. Since MK has been doing so well you'd expect to see Snake matching him but this hasn't been the case at all. This means either

A) Snake DOESN'T do that well vs. MK

B) Snake just gets wrecked by other characters consistently and MK doesn't

You can't make a popularity arguement here; Snake is the 2nd most popular character in the game. If you're going to merely say "MK is more popular so he gets more points" in reference to tournaments from the beginning of Brawl to now with 150+ points, you're stretching the argument. When you're arguing it for the 2nd best character in the game, you're just making **** up.

Using your own research, let's see what we've got at the tournaments you selected yourself! I'm not sure how you collected your data since you merely said "nationals" and then listed many tournaments with varying amounts of entrants and OOSers (hell, SNES was pretty much just an EC tournament + Michigan and isn't a national in the slightest), but let's see how many Snakes are busting the top 8!

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9543115&postcount=3570

Let's see... Ally... DSF (secondary Wario, MK).... Ally again and Anti (secondary MK).... Ally.... Ally.... Ally... and then Ally (secondary MK).

Well ****, what makes you think Snake is the right choice against Metaknight?

Out of 6 tournaments:

Number of Snakes: 8
Number of Metaknights: 24

Number of solo Snake mains (players): ZERO [Ally used MK at pound, or else he'd fit in here]
Number of solo Metaknight mains (players): 7 [M2K, Dojo, Judge, Tyrant, Domo, Shadow, Havok]

That's pretty hard to swallow, no?

Maybe if we zoom out and grab more MKs and just put this contest more in Snake's favor?

Research by Flayl:

Top MKs: M2K, Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, Ksizzle, Anti, DSF, Judge, Seibrik


From October 1st to January 31st:

Anti
- 3rd out of 39 at Gauntlet 10-03-09, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 3rd out of 53 at DAPHNE I, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 4th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Meep (IC)
- 1st out of 34 at Bum Presents: The Gamers, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 74 at PolyBrawl 11.28, can't find any brackets - outplaced by Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)

Dojo
- 1st out of 71 at HOBO 19, can't find any brackets
- 1st out of 71 at Phase 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 39 at Phase 3, can't find any brackets
- 4th out of 50 at HOBO 21, lost to Hylian (IC/G&W) and Razer (Snake)
- 2nd out of 46 at Final Smash 8, lost to Razer (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 48 at Phase 5, no brackets yet

DSF
- 1st out of 43 at CGC XII, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 49 at CGC @ SFSU 13, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)
- 1st out of 109 (split with Tyrant) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 3rd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)

Judge
- 2nd out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl. 2, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 31 at LoLiS 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 30 at Kuntasm, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 1st out of 42 at LoLiS 5, lost to Anther (Pikachu) once
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Shadow (MK) and Ksizzle (Lucario)
- 3rd out 27 at Michigan Ball Z, forfeit (don't know when or why)

Ksizzle
- 7th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Atomsk (???)
- 2nd out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 2nd out of 24 at Daisho's Tournament 11/21/09, can't find any brackets - lost to Cable (DK)
- 4th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Ally (Snake)

Mew2King
- 1st out of 36 at LoLiS 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl2, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 39 at lain's Lollapalooza, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 31 at LoLiS 4, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 30 at Kuntasm, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 89 at Winterfest, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 29 at Wait, AGAIN?!, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 30 at Delta Upsilon II, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 53 at OC #2: M2k's Monthly Donation Fund, 0 sets lost

Seibrik
- 2nd out of 41 at Gigabits - A Fall Brawl, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK)
- 2nd out of 24 at WATO 8.5, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK/Snake)
- 2nd out of 89 at Winterfest 2009, can't find any brackets - lost to Mew2King (MK)
- 1st out of 28 (split with CO18) at WATO 9, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 39 at FIU Brawl Tourney 1/23, lost to Nick Riddle (ZSS) twice

Shadow
- 4th out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Meep (IC) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 2nd out of 45 at KTAR, lost 2x to Ally (Snake)
- 2nd out of 25 at Powerplay Gaming Tournament, lost to Atomsk (???) and Ally (Snake)
- 3rd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 3rd out of 29 at Paradigm Presents: WAIT, AGAIN?!, can't find any brackets - outplaced by ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Ally (Snake)
- 1st out of 33 (split with DM Brandon) at DNA Gaming USA #2, lost to DM Brandon (MK)?
- 1st out of 34 at Syracuse Smash 2, 0 sets lost

Tyrant
- 3rd out of 43 at CGC XII, lost to DSF (MK) and michealHAZE (Marth)
- 5th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Meep (IC)
- 2nd out of 120 at R3, lost 2x to DEHF (Falco)
- 1st out of 18 at The BR Act: Program 1, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 109 (split with DSF) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice

Non-MK players that beat them in more than one instance:
ADHD (Diddy)
Ally (Snake)
Atomsk (???)
DEHF (Falco)
Meep (IC)
Razer (Snake)

Number of top MK players I listed - 9
Number of players that beat them on more than one instance - 6

Well ****. I have here data of the top MKs and who they lost to from October, November, December, and January. That's the 3 months you said were "recent" plus an extra month!

Razer and Ally are the only Snakes to do it! They are the only "multiple" character on here, but I think this would be an argument to say "Snake does best against MK", not "Snake does well".


You're going to need to support this with more data than "But.. but... but Ally!", because we know the following things to be true:

-Ally has been around for quite some time
-No Snake has been able to emulate his progress [while several MKs haev emulated M2k's]
-Ally is really, really good and can beat people with captain falcon that get 2nd at decent tournaments with a strong top 4

This is what you'd call an "outlier". In fact, he's basically the definition of it.

If Snake was viable against MK, people would be busting him out like clockwork. We've seen this occur in melee, and we've seen it in Brawl. When one character rises up, the characters that do best against him also become popular. Snake hasn't done ****.


While I have your attention (I know you don't like to read dem dere wurds much on account of da brain aches): rules specifically made to hinder MK, starting with IDC and ending with rules for planking, scrooging, anti-counterpick rules, the banning of stages deemed "too gay" because of MK, etc., etc., have increased in number has time has gone on.... but MK's rise hasn't decreased. If anything it's gone up. That means they aren't working.




Hey, the monkey!

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Okay, let's calm down. It's not like Diddy has had worse placing at MK-infested nationals than Snake by a long shot and we've already seen that Snake doesn't do the trick, right?

Let's just go on and pretend the world is a better place, shall we?


What does Diddy look like from your data?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9543115&postcount=3570

Number of Diddys: 5
Number of Metaknights: 24

Number of solo Diddy mains (players): 2 [ninjalink appears once, the rest are all ADHD]
Number of solo Metaknight mains (players): 7 [M2K, Dojo, Judge, Tyrant, Domo, Shadow, Havok]

Sorry, I was just so surprised that someone can use these characters as viable characters to pick up for high level play that I turned into a pumpkin and vomitted. As if anyone that isn't out of their ****ing mind wouldn't pick Metaknight with these numbers. This is a competitive game, yo. o_O

So we've basically got one guy. Uno. Singular! Une. That is less than two. We've got 7 solo MK mains and that's not counting the number of people using MK and another character! This does not look good for the monkey.

What about the research Flayl did about recent tournaments with the top MKs and-

oh. Just ADHD there too.


YOU ONLY HAVE STATISTICAL OUTLIERS.

THIS IS NOT A RUN AROUND OR EVASION OF YOUR ARGUMENTS.

THIS IS ME TELLING YOU THAT YOU CAN'T HIDE BEHIND TWO PEOPLE THAT CLEARLY OPERATE OUTSIDE OF THE NORM

They aren't a trend. They're unique.

If we were arguing about bear attacks in the woods and I said "look at how many bear attacks there were! We need to do something about this!" would you SERIOUSLY say "The bears aren't that big of a deal, there are just a lot of them. Plus there's this one guy that kills them with rocks on a consistent basis, and another one kills them with a stick"? You wouldn't because it wouldn't make any **** sense. It'd make sense if OTHER people could do it, but you wouldn't suggest rocks or sticks to people even if they had no other choice. You'd say RUN THE HELL AWAY. Get out of the situation.

In this case, you're saying Snake and Diddy can work well against MK and.... we're not seeing it. We're seeing two PLAYERS do it. This data can not point to this any more clearly. Seriously, it's pretty **** hard. There is no one backing them up and these are the 2nd and 3rd ranked characters in the game. Popularity isn't an issue here. People have picked up Snake in DROVES and we've got nothing. Diddy has been a popular choice for who knows how long and still we have ADHD and ADHD alone.

Hm. Good question. No, I wouldn't be okay with these specific results.

Good!

Now we've established that the actual results aren't acceptable to you; you hinge your beliefs of "it's okay" on the outliers present in the belief that either

A) other people can reach their status via skill

or

B) these characters are national contenders above, on, or near Metaknight.

B) has been disproven for all intents and purposes. While I can never (because it is literally impossible) tell you that the next tournament won't have 8 Snakes in the top 8 or 8 Diddys in the top 8 or anything else, everything we have in the history of Brawl at the highest level of play shows that Snake and Diddy aren't reliable choices.

In other words, you saying Snake or Diddy are good vs. Metaknight is just as silly as me saying Captain Falcon is because Ally won a tournament's grand finals with him. You can't extrapolate data in this fashion and expect your claims to hold any water.

If you want to go collect data, you need to find the highest placing Snake and Diddy mains and look at their results and then think long and hard about whether it is realistic to expect someone to choose Snake or Diddy when comparing their results to that of Metaknight. If you can't realistically expect anyone to pick Snake or Diddy.... argument is done.

If you noticed, the key phrase in my main sentence was specific results.

I made suer to give very specific data.

At a regional/local level, there are several player's outside of ADHD and Ally who consistently take top placements.

Ah, moving outside of the "outlier" range. Technically this is irrelevant since you wouldn't be okay with the results we have if ADHD and Ally weren't there and I've already kinda shown you that you can't look to them to show ANY trend whatsoever....

So unless you're so absent-minded as to think 1st place is the only place that matters and a pair of super players can be used to shield you against what is actually the norm in tournament play, current results, to you, are unacceptable.

If you can look at the information I just showed you and say that SNAKE and DIDDY, not ADHD and Ally, are worthwhile opponents for Metaknight and viable top level contenders, you're a liar or a mule.

Find some data to support your case.

DEHF's Falco, Mikehaze's Marth, Gnes' Diddy, Razer's Snake, Hunger's Wario, CO18's DDD, Riddle's ZSS (recently), Candy's Snake, Boss' Luigi, Chu's Kirby, Jash's Toon Link, Ninjalink's whatever, Atomsk's whatever, Anti's Snake, Blue Rogue's Wario, Holy Knightmare's ROB, NEO's Marth, Lain's IC's. The player's mentioned are easy contenders from 1st place to 3rd place every regional or local tournament they attend.

Wow, that's a long list of players!

Wait....

How'd they do at nationals?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9543115#post9543115

Compare the list you have there to the "nationals". This doesn't look pretty for you, and it seems like you've just got some wishful thinking going on here.

Do you really think that playing at a local level can REALLY show you what you're trying to say? It seems like you're not so much saying what HAS happened, but trying to say "look at what COULD happen", and if that's the case your argument can never be sated.

Not every region HAS Metaknights of worth in it. Picking out local tournaments and saying "lol MK didn't win" is silly when we've got this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

There's your rankings for all tournaments. No cherry picking involved, everything is weighted, and it is consistent and accepted.

From a national/regional/local perspective I would be content with ADHD and Ally being absent. From just a national perspective I would NOT be content.

This is understandable. If there was a regional with m2K, Judge, Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, and Havok and no one else good showed up, you can't expect much else other than 6 MKs in the top placements.

However, I've showed you that Ally and ADHD aren't indicative of anything and you've openly stated that without their influence you would not be content with the data.

How can you be okay with the data only when two outliers that show nothing in the way of trends are present, but not when those outliers are absent? It seems incredibly arbitrary; we know that MK can lose games. That's never been an argument. He HAS a defeat screen.

What he DOESN'T have is a character that can consistently beat him. When playing vs. a MK that knows what he's doing, you literally have to outplay the player, and the evidence we have collected shows this. All in all, Metaknight is the best option.... and not by any small margin.

There are other factors that would play into what my stance on the MK ban would be, but I'm attempting to just answer the question so I'll omit those extra tidbits for now.

Please add them now.

 

[BSP]

RDK how do you get "Smash Debater" as a title?

Get in the Debate Hall IIRC.

mariobrouser,

I was careful not to say the people did not quit solely because of MK. It is unquestionable that while Brawl is quite a good game, it has many faults. I acknowledge this, and believe me, if we could turn off tripping without hacks, there would be no debate such as the one we're having right now. However, MK is a large contributing factor.

All right.

 

[RDK]

RDK how do you get "Smash Debater" as a title?

Own enough n00bs for long periods of time and it pops up under your name.

@RDK: You butthole.

Just kidding bro; we're on the same team.

*DOES FUSION DANCE WITH OMNI*

*PUNCHES OS IN THE FACE*

 

[Tien2500]

Are you dumb?

Those statements are essentially mutually exclusive.

No I am not dumb and I don't like being insulted so please don't do so ^_^.

The argument for both is pretty much that with enough practice you can overcome anything.

 

[6Mizu]

Wall of text.
Also, OS I hate MK as much as you, but just cause MK is overrated doesn't mean he needs bann.

 

[RDK]

No I am not dumb and I don't like being insulted so please don't do so ^_^.

The argument for both is pretty much that with enough practice you can overcome anything.

Well that's not necessarily what we mean when we say "get better". Part of being a good player is KNOWING YOUR MATCHUPS lol.

I just like saying "pick up MK".

Edit: Jesus, OS was that necessary? I have to scroll left now to finish reading posts...

 

[6Mizu]

Get in the Debate Hall IIRC.

Where and how?

 

[Omni]

wall of text is long

u kno better, os

 

[swordgard]

If this is how you truly feel, then please, teach the entire world how to fight MK the correct way, since we're obviously doing it wrong, or training wrong. You seemed to have missed my entire point Swordgard. If no one takes this game more serious than you do (bold statement, but I'll run with it), then why aren't you the best player? Why haven't you beaten Ally? Why haven't you clocked in the hours? Why haven't you come up with the strategies?

It's simple. It's not that simple.

The bottom line is, MK ***** this game. Yes, there are players who are on a level of play that seems to have surpassed the MK boundary. But to even imagine that boundary will not be there for the duration of Brawl's competative existence is foolishness.

I'll give you this. If you're willing to teach the whole world how to "train the right way," and we all start beating MKs (who, let's not forget, are also practicing and training), then perhaps I will consider your words to have some real validity.

6Mizu, because the top players are split between different characters at the moment, MK hasn't won 70% of tourneys (I think, but it's close. It might actually be that much)

But he's probably won 70% of tourney sets he's used in or greater. Consider that I've used MK to defeat MUs that would have otherwise been very difficult, with relative ease, even in tourney.

mariobrouser,

I was careful not to say the people did not quit solely because of MK. It is unquestionable that while Brawl is quite a good game, it has many faults. I acknowledge this, and believe me, if we could turn off tripping without hacks, there would be no debate such as the one we're having right now. However, MK is a large contributing factor.

Actually, my training allowed me to take 1 set of ally and come close enough last time. And TBH, my training is far from being over. It is as simple as it sounds. I still have a ****load of techniques to learn, have not trained nearly enough online lately, combined with the fact that I don't get to travel often nor live in a very active region for brawl make this harder. Nevertheless, I have been slacking on my training a whole lot to try and get the brawl community in here more active, as I am not only training myself but also a lot of other people. Ally is far from being at an unreachable level, you have noone but yourself to blame for not being able to beat him, same for me. I simply have other things to do than just train, I am also trying to keep my region alive. You on the other hand don't have that excuse, your obviously not the only TO in your region, you don't live in a near empty region and get to go to nationals. Come back when you have better johns.

 

[Tien2500]

Well that's not necessarily what we mean when we say "get better". Part of being a good player is KNOWING YOUR MATCHUPS lol.

I just like saying "pick up MK".

Edit: Jesus, OS was that necessary? I have to scroll left now to finish reading posts...

Keep in mind I'm not referring to the whole anti-ban side. Just the ones that keep spamming "get better". All the evidence so far points to MK always having the advantage no matter how good you get. Not saying that means he should be banned. Just that we're unlikely to find a consistent counter for MK by just getting better and in all likelyhood he'll continue to dominate the metagame.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ITT, people with different colored names toss **** at each other declaring it smells better.

 

[BSP]

Mizu, you're better off asking someone in it, I'm not too sure myself.

 

[Overswarm]

If your not ADHD level with all of this training time, your training the wrong way. Don't go blame your lack of talent, seriously, just step it up. Everyone can. There is probably nobody in the entire world(dead serious) who takes this game more seriously than I do, and I can tell you that even the top players like ADHD and Ally could be much better if they knew more stuff, and that it is very possible to reach their level solely through training the right way.

1: Ally
2: Holynightmare
3: Silverdoc
4: KingAce
5: Swordguard
5: Hype



Practice harder.

 

[CRASHiC]

Wall of text.
Also, OS I hate MK as much as you, but just cause MK is overrated doesn't mean he needs bann.

o_O overrated? How da **** how? That data doesn't show popularity, it shows success of players in regards to their mains. Characters don't win out of popularity. See Link sprouts in Melee, or Captain Falcon and Peach, or Dudely in Thrid Strike, or Zangeif, see Snake in Brawl. All of these have few exceptional people who are amazing at what they do, but for the most part, these charecters don't do well as a whole, despite their popularity.

 

[swordgard]

1: Ally
2: Holynightmare
3: Silverdoc
4: KingAce
5: Swordguard
5: Hype



Practice harder.

Yeah, kind of ironic cause I lost to 1st even though I took first game off him. Then lost to doc, I definitely have played holy too much rather than playing online, got used to his MK style rather than just MK in general. Either way, this has nothing to do with MK being too good, more like me not training enough because as I pointed out, I'm slightly busy trying to keep my scene alive.

 

[iRJi]

Omni....

As much as I have been watching this, I think it is clear that OS's post is kind of solid, no?

 

[Overswarm]

wall of text is long

u kno better, os

ATTENTION SMASHBOARDS

OMNI GIVES UP AGAIN

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.

Fair enough.

Translation: I'll read dozens and dozens of posts by other people in this thread, even those that are merely responding to Overswarm's posts, but I shy away from Overswarm's posts since I can't respond to them with anything worthwhile, so I find my best strategy is to simply act like they should be ignored, so people from anti-ban will stop switching to pro-ban. I simply claim they are "too long" and have "too much information" and require too much of a time investment and then I simply post one-liners, quips, pictures and straw mans on a daily basis and hope people don't notice I main Metaknight.

This is all relevant to your post. I'm sorry if I'd rather be thorough and actually answer your question with research, data, and logic rather than your preferred method of strawman, non-sequiturs, and ad hominims.




If you're not willing to play with big boys, go home.

 

[Chuee]

1: Ally
2: Holynightmare
3: Silverdoc
4: KingAce
5: Swordguard
5: Hype



Practice harder.

*Swordgard
fail

 

[Justblaze647]

There is probably nobody in the entire world(dead serious) who takes this game more seriously than I do

I have been slacking on my training... I simply have other things to do than just train

You contradict yourself. Who let you into the backroom anyway?

 

[swordgard]

You contradict yourself. Who let you into the backroom anyway?

Ok think of it this way, if I want to compete, I need tournaments in my region. In order for there to be any tournament, I need to host them myself. In order to have any smashfest, its the same. In order to have a scene in montreal, I need to get a hold of most people alone. I need to ditch training in order to have some place to compete. Quebec is like the epitome of nothingness in terms of smash scene.

 

[RDK]

ITT, people with different colored names toss **** at each other declaring it smells better.

I think someone's just butthurt that he doesn't have a colored name.

OS, I will respond to your post. Give me about a thousand years.

No, but seriously. I'm responding to it.

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, kind of ironic cause I lost to 1st even though I took first game off him. Then lost to doc, I definitely have played holy too much rather than playing online, got used to his MK style rather than just MK in general. Either way, this has nothing to do with MK being too good, more like me not training enough because as I pointed out, I'm slightly busy trying to keep my scene alive.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238713

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177795


No comment.

 

[Omni]

os: you're asking me to respond to that huge wall of text

yet you still can't answer one simple question: "Overswarm, do you ban a character because they are dominant or because they are broken?" you're still playing dodgeball over the smallest and simplest of questions.

i've been on boat as you've kept your questions and points summarized so that i can address each of them individually. you're the one who's choosing not to get a response.

more text =/= big boys. it means you're terrible at getting to the point.

everyone knows im not "giving up". i'm just not tolerating your childish behavior. i mean what i say. i won't respond to novels.

u mad?

that's too bad.

 

[Overswarm]

I think someone's just butthurt that he doesn't have a colored name.

OS, I will respond to your post. Give me about a thousand years.

No, but seriously. I'm responding to it.

I'm not interested in your response yet. Keep it in word, saved and waiting.

I'd like to hear Omni's response, as this response was based off of Omni's own statements and beliefs. It's not hard for someone else with a different mindset to respond to my post, but fairly difficult for Omni to do so without changing his stance or sounding like a fool.

 

[swordgard]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238713

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177795


No comment.

Its kinda hilarious because the 1st one is a joke, nobody plays MK here, except Zaf which is why he has 2 MKs besides his name. This isn't even the new PR.

GTA aint my scene, I went there twice in 1 year. Canada is like 4-5 different regions.

 

[Eddie G]

Yeah, kind of ironic cause I lost to 1st even though I took first game off him. Then lost to doc, I definitely have played holy too much rather than playing online, got used to his MK style rather than just MK in general. Either way, this has nothing to do with MK being too good, more like me not training enough because as I pointed out, I'm slightly busy trying to keep my scene alive.

Who cares if you took a game? You still lost the set. If you're willing to settle for that enough to mention it as some kind of backing in your favor, then you're simply settling for mediocrity.

Practice harder.

 

[Overswarm]

os: you're asking me to respond to that huge wall of text

yet you still can't answer one simple question: "Overswarm, do you ban a character because they are dominant or because they are broken?" you're still playing dodgeball over the smallest and simplest of questions.

i've been on boat as you've kept your questions and points summarized so that i can address each of them individually. you're the one who's choosing not to get a response.

more text =/= big boys. it means you're terrible at getting to the point.

everyone knows im not "giving up". i'm just not tolerating your childish behavior. i mean what i say. i won't respond to novels.

u mad?

that's too bad.

I told you, ask me in the form of a non-loaded question and I'll answer.

Also, this is now the 9th or 10th post of mine you've evaded.

I'm not going to dumb this down for you Omni. I know your reading comprehension might not be on my level and maybe you have a hard time reading, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. My post is relevant, and isn't spam. You've posted multiple times in this thread and I've read 'em all.... yet you've ignored me whenever I've slammed you.

So, give up or go home.

 

[Espy Rose]

Omni, you're probably the most childish one in here.

Though that can be a good thing on some days...

 

[Flayl]

Overswarm, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the data suggest that MK has no even matchups besides the ditto?

It's really that simple, right?

Then I can respond for Omni: "Wait for the metagame to evolve"... or until Brawl dies, whichever comes first.