Official Metaknight Discussion

[Overswarm]

No, just you.


(working on a post!)

 

[BSP]

I know this seems dumb at this point, but if MK is even banned, I'll lead the Snake ban movement.

I know they're not the same, but if MK is banned while Snake is still in I think a lot of us will rage pretty hard :/

Probably not.

Anyway, I say we stop referencing to SF or any other fighter for that matter and focus on what would make brawl a better game. Does it really matter if it's a little different?

 

[6Mizu]

I know this seems dumb at this point, but if MK is even banned, I'll lead the Snake ban movement.

I know they're not the same, but if MK is banned while Snake is still in I think a lot of us will rage pretty hard :/

I don't think many people would go along with you on this.

No, but srsly.....almost no 1.

 

[moyshe]

If you ban one character, your gonna have to ban another.

 

[etecoon]

I know this seems dumb at this point, but if MK is even banned, I'll lead the Snake ban movement.

I know they're not the same, but if MK is banned while Snake is still in I think a lot of us will rage pretty hard :/

snake isn't in the same category as MK at all, he's potentially worse than diddy and falco even. MK is the only character that even warrants a discussion on banning.

 

[Nitrix]

I know this seems dumb at this point, but if MK is even banned, I'll lead the Snake ban movement.

I know they're not the same, but if MK is banned while Snake is still in I think a lot of us will rage pretty hard :/

Last time I checked Snake actually has tough matchups. He also doesn't completely dictate who is tournament viable

 

[demonictoonlink]

If you're taking it to the point where you are actually banning a character, you might as well ban another that also shines above the rest. I'd say take Diddy also but he would make a good #1. He doesn't shut down enough to be out.

 

[Chuee]

LOL that's pretty much anti-ban, just a joke.

I could say the exact same about pro-ban.

 

[Omni]

All data shows otherwise. Please show me your findings showing that other characters, not players, do well against Metaknight. All the data that Crow!, Flayl, and myself have collected have shown that specific players can do well vs. MK but actual characters do not.

We already disagree here. The fact that you're labeling Ally and ADHD as players and discrediting them as Snake and Diddy players presents a conflict of interest.

People have different viewpoints. What would it take for me to show you that yours was wrong?

You're still suck on this, dude. Your viewpoint isn't right or wrong; it's your viewpoint of the scenario. That is not to say that there can not be other viewpoints. There is nothing you can show me to tell me when I'm wrong when my viewpoint is a subjective opinion based on statistical facts... just like yours.

The fact that you still believe your viewpoint is "right" as opposed to "different" worries me.

You have continuously gone to traditional fighters like Street Fighter as your "base", making comparisons to Akuma, Sagat, Old Sagat, and the like while at the same time telling me "we shouldn't make the game more like melee".

Why should we make it more like Street Fighter?

Are you really reading into my posts, Overswarm?

I am not attempting to make the game like Street Fighter. I am suggesting that both games have similar character dominance scenarios which equates to similarities in the metagame. The example I make is that Street Fighter 4 is an example of a successful competitive fighting game. Melee is also an example of a successful competitive fighting game.

However, Brawl is more similar in nature to Street Fighter 4 in the fact that both games have a best character that is well represented and very popular. I am not suggesting that we need to make Brawl like SF4. I am suggesting that currently Brawl and SF4 share the same characteristic traits in the metagame. There's no reason for Brawl to fail where SF4 succeeded given that their situations are similar in nature.

What you are attempting to do is change Brawl itself to replicate Melee. What I am attempting to suggest to you is that we can have a good game even if it is not like Melee and here's why.

Please phrase this in the form of a non-loaded question, or I give you my previous answer.

Several people have already said my question is not loaded i.e. Ankoku, MMM. Please explain to me how a simple question such as that is "loaded" and I'll attempt to change it to your liking. I personally don't see anything wrong with the question; I think you're just afraid of answering it. It's not a difficult question and I am not attempting to force you to say something you don't want to.

Care to back that up? =P

I hate MK because he makes what could be an amazing game into a self-killing mediocre one.

1.) That person's character gets dominated by MK.
2.) That person believes MK is unhealthy to the metagame.
3.) That person believes that having more characters as viable would make a better game.
4.) That person doesn't like the fact that there is a clear best character in the game.

There could be more but those are just a few.

 

[6Mizu]

If you're taking it to the point where you are actually banning a character, you might as well ban another that also shines above the rest. I'd say take Diddy also but he would make a good #1. He doesn't shut down enough to be out.

Stupid logic. I know your trying to keep MK "unbanned", but that's just dumb.

I could say the exact same about pro-ban.

Lol! Very true.

 

[Omni]

"Overswarm, do you ban a character because they are dominant or because they are broken?"

This is the question that I've posed to you, OS. How exactly is this loaded? You can answer with one, the other, both, or neither and give your explanation for it so it leaves you with uh.... being able to answer it in anyway possible.

The question is REALLY simple.

 

[Kewkky]

I hate it when a single pro/anti-ban members come in and make fools of themselves, then cause the opposing side to laugh at the whole group. :/

 

[Omni]

I hate it when a single pro/anti-ban members come in and make fools of themselves, then cause the opposing side to laugh at the whole group. :/

Yeah, I hate it when Overswarm comes in here, too.

 

[6Mizu]

Why are we having this stupid discussion again? [/Sarcasm]

 

[Zankoku]

*points and laughs*

 

[BSP]

Why are we having this stupid discussion again?

I second this. The community needs to take some action instead of giving data back and forth.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, I hate it when Overswarm comes in here, too.

I hate it when Ally comes in here.

Spoiler

Ally randomly namesearches, even though I just randomly named him for no reason... I hope he replies, I wonder what will he reply

 

[6Mizu]

*laughs because Ankoku laughs*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

TOs should juts ban him, a 2/3 majority is a ridiculous number when 2/3 top players play MK anyway.

 

[6Mizu]

^ bad reason! lol
It doesn't mean anything unless he win 2/3 tournyes too.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^ bad reason! lol
It doesn't mean anything unless he win 2/3 tournyes too.

.......
wat

 

[laki]

However, Brawl is more similar in nature to Street Fighter 4 in the fact that both games have a best character that is well represented and very popular. I am not suggesting that we need to make Brawl like SF4. I am suggesting that currently Brawl and SF4 share the same characteristic traits in the metagame. There's no reason for Brawl to fail where SF4 succeeded given that their situations are similar in nature.

What you are attempting to do is change Brawl itself to replicate Melee. What I am attempting to suggest to you is that we can have a good game even if it is not like Melee and here's why.

I'd just like to say that technically Brawl is succeeding way more than street fighter based soley off of popularity and attendance.

Secondly, This game can't be as good as melee as is simply because the community is so split on this metaknight issue and whether he's banned or not, it will probably remain so. Especially if he's not banned in my honest opinion.

 

[Vyse]

This doesn't apply to everyone, but just try to be nice kids in here to each other and keep on topic <3

I hope Metaknight is never banned. I'm starting to learn the matchup better.
Last weekend, I was playing against Australia's (arguably) best MK in tournament and doing much better than I usually do.

Reading M2K's complaints about Diddy has given me a lot more insight into the matchup.

 

[swordgard]

TOs should juts ban him, a 2/3 majority is a ridiculous number when 2/3 top players play MK anyway.

You need a large scale movement for anything to happen. Also, 2/3rd is not ridiculous considering its the normal super majority required to ban anything.


2/3rd of the top players play MK? Does that mean MK should be banned? Please, just leave this thread alone, your not even helping proban.

 

[laki]

TOs should juts ban him, a 2/3 majority is a ridiculous number when 2/3 top players play MK anyway.

It's been stated several times that banning meta locally hurts your local players that travel out of state/region as they need meta experience.

Hence why Xyro stopped running meta banned tournies.

 

[6Mizu]

You need a large scale movement for anything to happen. Also, 2/3rd is not ridiculous considering its the normal super majority required to ban anything.


2/3rd of the top players play MK? Does that mean MK should be banned? Please, just leave this thread alone, your not even helping proban.

It's been stated several times that banning meta locally hurts your local players that travel out of state/region as they need meta experience.

Hence why Xyro stopped running meta banned tournies.

lol
No, but sword is right.

 

[The Brigand]

"Overswarm, do you ban a character because they are dominant or because they are broken?"

This is the question that I've posed to you, OS. How exactly is this loaded?

I know I'm not OS, but I want to answer this.

It's a loaded question because the question itself only allows for two answers: Yes, he bans because of dominance, or yes, he bans because of brokenness.

Just sayin', it's a wording problem. Though why OS didn't say that to begin with confuses me.

 

[Pierce7d]

There will always be a BEST player, and a second best, and a third best.

I play this game very frequently. In fact, I know FOR A FACT that I've clocked in more hours than ADHD, and probably DEHF and ALLY too.

There are people who play this game 3 times a week, 4 times a week, and in some stretches, EVERY DAY, all day.

How can you fail to see that the fact of the matter is, "PLAY TIME DOES NOT DIRECTLY EQUAL RESULTS." Correlation does not equal causation.

Yes, practice improves you, but it doesn't automatically make you capable of achieving extraordinary things. Do you honestly think the only reason the top players are good is because they practiced more than everyone else? How many hours have you clocked in? Why aren't you better.

Please don't insult everyone in this way. People ARE trying, people have been practicing the MU. People DO know about MK. And at the end of the day, he's still broken. Dtilt is still one of the safest ground pokes in the game. Nado is still broken. Shuttle Loop is still broken anti-air. Uair is still frame 2 with massive range. D3 still gets shut down by Dair camp into Nado. Falco still gets ***** by planking. Marth still gets outclassed.

I do not see why we should NOT cater to the masses, the MAJORITY of the community. Many anti-ban players like to envision themselves above the problem, and look down upon others saying, "Can't beat MK, think he's broken? Too bad, you're a scrub!" However, my objective is to represent the voice of the MANY, MANY people (and please note, this does include top players such as myself and Overswarm, amongst many others).

Honestly, I can definitely beat the vast, VAST majority of people who say, "Get better" with my Metaknight, no questions asked.

MK is clearly a notch above the rest of the cast. Yes, ADHD has shown us that we can consistantly beat the character. So has Ally. Raise your hand if you think you'll ever be on ADHD, Ally, or DEHF's level. Tell you what, all of you people who aren't already established top players already, if you win a national without using MK, I'll lead the anti-ban argument myself!

There will always be elites in every arena. You think there aren't people who practice more than the top players in a particular sport, or arena of any kind? My point is not to belittle the people who are struggling. I'm not saying you will never amount to anything, because you never know who has the potential to one day become a top player. However, to say that MK should not be banned, because the ordinary player should be able to achieve extraordinary things on a consistent basis, well, that's laughable. Incredible players wouldn't be incredible if everyone could do it.

I've said this before, but not everyone has had a chance to read it, so I'll repeat myself.

I think a lot of people are getting characters confused with their top players. Anti-ban wants to cater to the height of the metagame, which means the top player. However, the way I see it, it's far more important to keep your tournament base intact, and cater to the majority (and it's been proven by several votes, and is obvious by just reading, the majority of players currently want MK banned.) This is the primary reason why I am pro ban.

I do not think I am wrong in saying that anytime I say "Diddy Kong," you think of ADHD. You claim that Diddy Kong is a MK counter, and is likely to start sweeping results, and purging MK. Well, then I ask ALL of you: How many people here plan to pick up Diddy Kong to counter MK? I'm very interested to know if Anti-ban is willing to back up their claims.

The top players are not the standard by which we should base the ban. They should be considered, but in no way should your argument revolve around the success of a talented few, when we are talking about a rule set that affects thousands of people.

Imagine for a second that that the top player from each character quit the game. M2k for MK, ADHD for Diddy, Ally for Snake, etc, for every good character. If this were to happen, MK's already inflated results would probably triple or more. Even if you took out the top 3 MKs, the results would still be triple or more. The fact is, a select few players are creating an illusion which anti-ban is defending. However, I would like to see MK banned on the premise that if, out of the thousands of people that go to tournaments, very few can consistently keep up with MK. Many, many players end up either quitting, or switching to MK themselves. People quitting is the problem, and switching to MK just fuels it. It's a horrid cycle waiting for people to speak up and do something about it. And before you say it's not a problem, consider that I'm sure you know one, and probably at least two people that quit Brawl and MK helped influence the decision.

Banning MK doesn't make you weak, it makes you smart for realizing that standing up, and taking actual to deal with this problem is better than being macho and idle, claiming that people should just 'deal with it'.

I am pro-ban. I see a clear problem that has torn our community asunder. I'm trying to fix it before it gets too late., and I hope you are too. We've spent a lot of time already. Hopefully, our time has come.

 

[swordgard]

There will always be a BEST player, and a second best, and a third best.

I play this game very frequently. In fact, I know FOR A FACT that I've clocked in more hours than ADHD, and probably DEHF and ALLY too.

There are people who play this game 3 times a week, 4 times a week, and in some stretches, EVERY DAY, all day.

How can you fail to see that the fact of the matter is, "PLAY TIME DOES NOT DIRECTLY EQUAL RESULTS."

Yes, practice improves you, but it doesn't automatically make you capable of achieving extraordinary things. Do you honestly think the only reason the top players are good is because they practiced more than everyone else? How many hours have you clocked in? Why aren't you better.

Please don't insult everyone in this way. People ARE trying, people have been practicing the MU. People DO know about MK. And at the end of the day, he's still broken. Dtilt is still one of the safest ground pokes in the game. Nado is still broken. Shuttle Loop is still broken anti-air. Uair is still frame 2 with massive range. D3 still gets shut down by Dair camp into Nado. Falco still gets ***** by planking. Marth still gets outclassed.

I do not see why we should NOT cater to the masses, the MAJORITY of the community. Many, such as you, like to envision themselves above the problem, and look down upon others saying, "Can't beat MK, think he's broken? Too bad, you're a scrub!" However, my objective is to represent the voice of the MANY, MANY people (and please note, this does include top players such as myself and Overswarm, amongst many others).

Honestly, I can definitely beat the vast, VAST majority of people who say, "Get better" with my Metaknight, no questions asked.

MK is clearly a notch above the rest of the cast. Yes, ADHD has shown us that we can consistantly beat the character. So has Ally. Raise your hand if you think you'll ever be on ADHD, Ally, or DEHF's level. Tell you what, all of you people who aren't already established top players already, if you win a national without using MK, I'll lead the anti-ban argument myself!

There will always be elites in every arena. You think there aren't people who practice more than the top players in a particular sport, or arena of any kind? My point is not to belittle the people who are struggling. I'm not saying you will never amount to anything, because you never know who has the potential to one day become a top player. However, to say that MK should not be banned, because the ordinary player should be able to achieve extraordinary things on a consistent basis, well, that's laughable. Incredible players wouldn't be incredible if everyone could do it.

I've said this before, but not everyone has had a chance to read it, so I'll repeat myself.

I think a lot of people are getting characters confused with their top players. Anti-ban wants to cater to the height of the metagame, which means the top player. However, the way I see it, it's far more important to keep your tournament base intact, and cater to the majority (and it's been proven by several votes, and is obvious by just reading, the majority of players currently want MK banned.) This is the primary reason why I am pro ban.

I do not think I am wrong in saying that anytime I say "Diddy Kong," you think of ADHD. You claim that Diddy Kong is a MK counter, and is likely to start sweeping results, and purging MK. Well, then I ask ALL of you. How many people here plan to pick up Diddy Kong to counter MK? I'm very interested to know if Anti-ban is willing to back up their claims.

The top players are not the standard by which we should base the ban. They should be considered, but in no way should your argument revolve around the success of a talented few, when we are talking about a rule set that affects thousands of people.

Imagine for a second that that the top player from each character quit the game. M2k for MK, ADHD for Diddy, Ally for Snake, etc, for every good character. If this were to happen, MK's already inflated results would probably triple or more. Even if you took out the top 3 MKs, the results would still be triple or more. The fact is, a select few players are creating an illusion which anti-ban is defending. However, I would like to see MK banned on the premise that if, out of the thousands of people that go to tournaments, very few can consistently keep up with MK. Many, many players end up either quitting, or switching to MK themselves. People quitting is the problem, and switching to MK just fuels it. It's a horrid cycle waiting for people to speak up and do something about it. And before you say it's not a problem, consider that I'm sure you know one, and probably at least two people that quit Brawl and MK helped influence the decision.

Banning MK doesn't make you weak, it makes you smart for realizing that standing up, and taking actual to deal with this problem is better than being macho and idle, claiming that people should just 'deal with it'.

I am pro-ban. I see a clear, problem that has torn our community asunder. I'm trying to fix it before it gets too late., and I hope you are too. We've spent a lot of time already. Hopefully, our time has come.

If your not ADHD level with all of this training time, your training the wrong way. Don't go blame your lack of talent, seriously, just step it up. Everyone can. There is probably nobody in the entire world(dead serious) who takes this game more seriously than I do, and I can tell you that even the top players like ADHD and Ally could be much better if they knew more stuff, and that it is very possible to reach their level solely through training the right way.

 

[6Mizu]

geez, Pierce7d.....wall of text.
I'm just trying to stop MK from being banned.
No because I play him or like him. Because I hate him! He's just not "that" good. When MK starts to about 70% of tourneys I'll believe....that he needs ban. But til' that day I'm stickin by what I know/think.

EDIT: And also what Sword said. Me and sword seem to be on the same side, because everything I've said so far he's backed me up on.
Sword you've got something from me. (friend request)

 

[BSP]

Many, many players end up either quitting, or switching to MK themselves. People quitting is the problem, and switching to MK just fuels it. It's a horrid cycle waiting for people to speak up and do something about it. And before you say it's not a problem, consider that I'm sure you know one, and probably at least two people that quit Brawl and MK helped influence the decision.

Good post Pierce.

This is picky, but I think the people "quitting due to MK" can be debated. It is very probable, but maybe they just got fed up with the campiness/play of brawl in general, or maybe another character they can't handle, etc.

I agree that people quitting is definitely a problem, but we can't just assume that's it's all due to MK.

 

[6Mizu]

Good post Pierce.

This is picky, but I think the people "quitting due to MK" can be debated. It is very probable, but maybe they just got fed up with the campiness/play of brawl in general, or maybe another character they can't handle, etc.

I agree that people quitting is definitely a problem, but we can't just assume that's it's all due to MK.

Of course. People have many reasons for quitting and it is a big problem. We need to attract people to play brawl, brawl +, etc. not the opposite...............but that doesn't necessarily mean it's MK fault people decide not to play.

 

[Chuee]

Nado isn't broken.

 

[6Mizu]

^ Troll!
lol
And yes it sorta is.....but that doesn't make MK himself broken.

 

[swordgard]

Nado isn't broken.

Nobody said it was.

 

[RDK]

"I don't care what scientists in thems fancy coats with labs say, I gots my bible and I know what daddy told me."

Lol, you have that analogy absolutely ***-backwards.

Whoa, that post was from a while back. [/phoenix down]

 

['V']

Out of all of the people in Louisiana that have quit Brawl, NONE of them quit because of Meta Knight. That much I can assure you.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There will always be a BEST player, and a second best, and a third best.

I play this game very frequently. In fact, I know FOR A FACT that I've clocked in more hours than ADHD, and probably DEHF and ALLY too.

There are people who play this game 3 times a week, 4 times a week, and in some stretches, EVERY DAY, all day.

How can you fail to see that the fact of the matter is, "PLAY TIME DOES NOT DIRECTLY EQUAL RESULTS." Correlation does not equal causation.

Yes, practice improves you, but it doesn't automatically make you capable of achieving extraordinary things. Do you honestly think the only reason the top players are good is because they practiced more than everyone else? How many hours have you clocked in? Why aren't you better.

Please don't insult everyone in this way. People ARE trying, people have been practicing the MU. People DO know about MK. And at the end of the day, he's still broken. Dtilt is still one of the safest ground pokes in the game. Nado is still broken. Shuttle Loop is still broken anti-air. Uair is still frame 2 with massive range. D3 still gets shut down by Dair camp into Nado. Falco still gets ***** by planking. Marth still gets outclassed.

I do not see why we should NOT cater to the masses, the MAJORITY of the community. Many anti-ban players like to envision themselves above the problem, and look down upon others saying, "Can't beat MK, think he's broken? Too bad, you're a scrub!" However, my objective is to represent the voice of the MANY, MANY people (and please note, this does include top players such as myself and Overswarm, amongst many others).

Honestly, I can definitely beat the vast, VAST majority of people who say, "Get better" with my Metaknight, no questions asked.

MK is clearly a notch above the rest of the cast. Yes, ADHD has shown us that we can consistantly beat the character. So has Ally. Raise your hand if you think you'll ever be on ADHD, Ally, or DEHF's level. Tell you what, all of you people who aren't already established top players already, if you win a national without using MK, I'll lead the anti-ban argument myself!

There will always be elites in every arena. You think there aren't people who practice more than the top players in a particular sport, or arena of any kind? My point is not to belittle the people who are struggling. I'm not saying you will never amount to anything, because you never know who has the potential to one day become a top player. However, to say that MK should not be banned, because the ordinary player should be able to achieve extraordinary things on a consistent basis, well, that's laughable. Incredible players wouldn't be incredible if everyone could do it.

I've said this before, but not everyone has had a chance to read it, so I'll repeat myself.

I think a lot of people are getting characters confused with their top players. Anti-ban wants to cater to the height of the metagame, which means the top player. However, the way I see it, it's far more important to keep your tournament base intact, and cater to the majority (and it's been proven by several votes, and is obvious by just reading, the majority of players currently want MK banned.) This is the primary reason why I am pro ban.

I do not think I am wrong in saying that anytime I say "Diddy Kong," you think of ADHD. You claim that Diddy Kong is a MK counter, and is likely to start sweeping results, and purging MK. Well, then I ask ALL of you. How many people here plan to pick up Diddy Kong to counter MK? I'm very interested to know if Anti-ban is willing to back up their claims.

The top players are not the standard by which we should base the ban. They should be considered, but in no way should your argument revolve around the success of a talented few, when we are talking about a rule set that affects thousands of people.

Imagine for a second that that the top player from each character quit the game. M2k for MK, ADHD for Diddy, Ally for Snake, etc, for every good character. If this were to happen, MK's already inflated results would probably triple or more. Even if you took out the top 3 MKs, the results would still be triple or more. The fact is, a select few players are creating an illusion which anti-ban is defending. However, I would like to see MK banned on the premise that if, out of the thousands of people that go to tournaments, very few can consistently keep up with MK. Many, many players end up either quitting, or switching to MK themselves. People quitting is the problem, and switching to MK just fuels it. It's a horrid cycle waiting for people to speak up and do something about it. And before you say it's not a problem, consider that I'm sure you know one, and probably at least two people that quit Brawl and MK helped influence the decision.

Banning MK doesn't make you weak, it makes you smart for realizing that standing up, and taking actual to deal with this problem is better than being macho and idle, claiming that people should just 'deal with it'.

I am pro-ban. I see a clear, problem that has torn our community asunder. I'm trying to fix it before it gets too late., and I hope you are too. We've spent a lot of time already. Hopefully, our time has come.

While some of anti-ban might be catering to top players, most of us are more interested in playing the game as it is, and only banning what is absolutely necessary.


If you wanna do something, make a change, then I offered a suggestion to work on, an issue to force. The issue of developing a solid rigid criteria, because honestly, just blankly stating opinions will solve nothing, and just tear the community apart even more.


What we need now is a way to solve this once and for all, because with a community divided by such a small margin and whether he should be banned as totally a matter of personal opinion, I see community disintegration as a very real possibility.



As I said, I offered a possible suggestion, something that people can consider no matter what their position is on the issue, and something that should solve the problem once and for all, now all that remains are people with sufficient influence to take the first step.

 

[6Mizu]

RDK how do you get "Smash Debater" as a title?

 

[Xyro77]

It's been stated several times that banning meta locally hurts your local players that travel out of state/region as they need meta experience.

Hence why Xyro stopped running meta banned tournies.

This is 100% wrong. Who lied to you? I stopped doing meta banned events(even though it raised my attendance) because i found another way to keep meta legal but weaken him to a point where he is "more fair"