Official Metaknight Discussion

[AvaricePanda]

Planking is a good strategy for every character but MK, but it is punishable and you can only argue in theory that it's too good of a strategy AKA "broken".

Planking for MK has been frame-by-frame tested to be realistically unpunishable if MK does it. I don't remember the specifics, but there's a very small frame window in which it may not be possible for anyone to input anything, but if it is, it's infinitely easier to frame-perfect plank than it is to frame-perfect punish.

The problems are banned because of MK. I don't see how you can think otherwise. There's a difference between ledge-camping and you-can't-realistically-hit-me.

The only thing I don't understand is the whole stage thing. The only stage that I've seen restricted because of MK is Norfair, and it was my understanding that AN originally banned the stage (which I guess sparked everyone else to do so) because Spammerer abused the stages ledges with Jigglypuff's Pound priority.

I can see Brinstar being banned because of MK and Wario (lol timing people out), but I don't see why there has to be such a big problem with it if it was potentially banned. It's not as if banning stages because of a sole character is a new thing; Japes is banned mostly because of Falco, and stages like Poke Floats (and I think Japes and others I can't think of atm) in Melee were banned mostly because of Fox's laser camping. How come suggesting banning Brinstar would result in, "If you have to ban stages for this character why not just ban the character?" That's way too large of a slope.

If anything, it alleviates the MK "problem" if the character is still legal.

edit:

MK has Daircamping to laglessly ended Tornado to grounded Shuttle Loop. How is that defeated?

And don't say MK will get grabbed after Nado; he knows to move away if he notices your shield is up.

....you punish the D-air, punish Tornado before it lands, or punish the shuttle loop. This is by no means unpunishable simply because some low-tier characters may not be able to handle it.

Honestly, if this were the case, then tons of top level or even any level MKs would be spamming this, which they clearly aren't.

 

[Tommy_G]

I never said MK wasn't the best scrooger/planker.......

I said those other characters can do it just as effectively. MK can do it better, but the other characters can still do it.

 

[John12346]

Punish the tornado before it lands.

Er, what

How is one supposed to go about doing that if MK moved away from you during Nado because he noticed your shield was up?

And for that matter, @ AP, how do you go about 'punishing Dair' and 'punishing Shuttle Loop,' given MK only uses SL after Nado if you try to punish?

 

[salaboB]

I said those other characters can do it just as effectively. MK can do it better

It's not just as effective if MK does it better :/

 

[Tommy_G]

It's not just as effective if MK does it better :/

Getting to the other side of the stage with 1 second to spare is more effective than getting to the other side of the stage with 1/3 of a second to spare, but they still both work.

Maybe effective isn't the word. Ugh I'm getting too tired for this ridiculous argument.

 

[Tien2500]

I said those other characters can do it just as effectively. MK can do it better

Ummmmm... is it just me or did those two statements completely contradict eachother? My mind is blown man.

 

[Tien2500]

Getting to the other side of the stage with 1 second to spare is more effective than getting to the other side of the stage with 1/3 of a second to spare, but they still both work.

Maybe effective isn't the word. Ugh I'm getting too tired for this ridiculous argument.

It's not just a matter of speed, it's a matter of what you can do. Alot of characters can approach an offstange pit. Approaching an offstage MK is an extremely disadvantageous position.

 

[AvaricePanda]

You...

Power-shield the D-air, jump and aerial

Shield the D-air, jump and aerial (dependent on spacing and how good the aerial is)

Don't space yourself right under MK? Shield, run away, get out of that position or just bait a D-air when he's slightly away from you and he thinks you'll approach or something, and then punish.

If he tornados, you shield, and he moves away, there's a kinda limited time he has to do that safely. Me maining Diddy, I don't have to worry much about timing and just hold shield tilted up and punish with a banana, but I'm sure with other characters if MK moves prematurely they can catch up, or if MK moves late they'll just punish right there.

Any character with a projectile can just keep punishing him for running away (Falco, Fox) and encourage him to approach.

If you know he's going to shuttle loop, you can just space right under him so he can't get you with a glide attack or anything immediate. Under and slightly behind him, you can punish with a B-air or something if they try to glide attack. Me maining Diddy and just place/throw some bananas.

D-air isn't nearly as good of a move as you're making it out to be. It's only safe while rising on some characters, and well I guess MK has good match-ups against those characters. It's silly for me to say something like, "omg some characters can't hit Diddy's shield without getting hit by a banana ban him." This strategy is easily beatable, MAYBE you have to power-shield or react quickly but oh well, that's all in learning the match-up. If you main a character with a 70-30 against MK, don't complain that you can't punish things like that lol

There's a reason why this strategy isn't spammed by high level MKs; it's not unbeatable by a long shot.

 

[theunabletable]

Er, what

How is one supposed to go about doing that if MK moved away from you during Nado because he noticed your shield was up?

You can chase him, or hit him with a projectile.

And for that matter, @ AP, how do you go about 'punishing Dair' and 'punishing Shuttle Loop,' given MK only uses SL after Nado if you try to punish?

Run up and shield the SL, then punish. Run up and punish before he lands after shield. Take the nado hit, SDI up, punish from above.

Seriously there are so many ways to beat this.

 

[-Ran]

If I approach a Pit that is on the ledge, the main fear I have is an Up air that is easily Sdi'ed back into me being on the stage if I fail to read its deployment. Against MK of sufficient skill, I'll eat an aerial that will position me off of the stage, and put MK in a position to pursue me for damage or a gimp. When MK is on an edge, he is safe and can afford to wait for his opponent. Once his opponent attempts to remove him from the edge, MK is in a perfect situation to yield kills or massive damage.

Mk should only be utilizing Dair in a rising action, with spacing to where he can mixup a footstool jump should he decide to alter his timing [ie predict your shield.] Executed on this level, Dair poking/camping is extremely potent and hard for most of the cast to deal with effectively.

 

[Tommy_G]

It's not just a matter of speed, it's a matter of what you can do. Alot of characters can approach an offstange pit. Approaching an offstage MK is an extremely disadvantageous position.

Given) You approach Pit.

Situation A)He gets a gimp on you.

Situation B) You grab the ledge and prohibit him from getting back to the stage
B-1) Pit flies under the stage getting under you by using up airs until it pulls you off the ledge. You recover onto the stage while Pit flies under.

Situation C) You shamelessly jump out to prevent him from flying under the stage.
C-1) He gets back on the stage(get up or roll up) and runs to the other ledge
C-2) He gimps you.

Unless you have an answer for flying under a stage(Being ROB or MK) ...good luck

It's late and I'm going to sleep.

 

[-Ran]

Pit can be forced off the edge. I've played against an extremely well versed Pit player [Esca] enough to be aware of how to do it.

 

[John12346]

Well, the thing is, I'm not talking about when MK goes aggro like the way you're describing; even I can handle MK if he's throwing out moves like a wild boar... I'm talking more about the somewhat defensive way MK plays.

Like, when he does rising Dairs up the butt to aircamp, followed by Nado if he's out of jumps. At this point, the MK will move onto you with Nado, and if your shield's up, MK moves away within maybe a fourth of the duration of the move has played out. If MK retreated Nado at that point, he laglessly lands, and does something(usually SL, but it can honestly be anything) if you try to punish. And of course, if you don't try to punish, he goes back to the Dairs.

 

[ElDominio]

I used this thread to get to my 100th post.... and it still lives...

any updates? MK any non-gayer?

 

[PottyJokes]

@saleb

ADHD was losing when UTDZac was planking him with Gnw. called over the TO and the TO threaten to make UTDZac forfeit the match if he caught him planking again.

just trying to say that MK planking isn't the only thing people have a problem with. basically stopped gnw from camping just because diddy kong couldn't deal with it.

 

[jinkogunai]

He doesn't have a tactic that is specifically exclusive to him that is unbeatable or something that gives him a severe advantage over everyone in the game. In fact, a lot of the stuff he does is punishable if the other player doesn't run in without thinking.

@jinko,
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9887018&postcount=9950
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10296961&postcount=12456

I know people have responded to this, hold on. This is rough and I rambled a lot, but it's my viewpoints. As of why he can't be banned right at this moment, it's because of MLG, but at any point it's not that he can't be banned, it's just that some people believe he shouldn't be.

thanks for answering my question. im still reviewing data, information, etc before i wanna respond to anything again in the thread. but first, i would like someone to answer , without using perfect frame data or political inquiries, why mk should be banned. thank you in advance and i appreciate it.

 

[Kitamerby]

Situation B) You grab the ledge and prohibit him from getting back to the stage
B-1) Pit flies under the stage getting under you by using up airs until it pulls you off the ledge. You recover onto the stage while Pit flies under.

Situation C) You shamelessly jump out to prevent him from flying under the stage.
C-1) He gets back on the stage(get up or roll up) and runs to the other ledge
C-2) He gimps you.

B-2/C-3 You hit him with a projectile and laugh at how he pathetically flops to his death under the stage.

Totally valid strategy. :V

 

[NJzFinest]

John12346, watch DEHF vs any MK

Or M2K vs D1

 

[DMG]

Lol the info in this thread greatly amuses me. I will just state some blatantly obvious points, and be done for a few hours:

1. Pit is nowhere near as good as MK on the edge in any aspect. Planking, scrooging, whatever you think involves the edge MK does it noticeably better. There are obvious exploitable holes there for you to take advantage of. The next person that says Pit can plank Similar to MK I'm gonna literally write a 9 page report on why you are wrong, with Pie Charts and graphs and diagrams galore.

2. Lol ADHD vs Zac... Let me tell you about that match.

It was on Jungle Japes. On this stage, Planking increases in strength for characters like G&W, Pit, DK, and Jiggs on this stage. Normally, Diddy struggles to beat G&W's planking (it's very possible to do it, but very hard. Diddy doesn't have good downwards reaching aerials to try and punish G&W for being in lag and out in the open. He can however grab the edge before his aerials start up, or grab the edge when G&W has to Upb and try to punish, but for Diddy this is still hard.) On this stage, G&W is basically auto win against Diddy if he is allowed to plank. As far as I am aware, there was either a LGL on everyone or only for MK, and it was like 35 or 40 IIRC. Why Zac stopped is NOT because the TO/Xyro asked him to stop. He stopped because he planked ADHD to prove a point both about that matchup and about why that stage is dumb, and a minor reason was that he wanted to beat him without having to resort entirely to planking (which he did later that day in a MM where he didn't plank). I actually remember seeing that exact match on livestream and initially people were confused why he stopped. Some of the crowd wanted him to keep doing it actually lol.

Basically, planking from other characters than MK is generally acceptable except for stages where Planking becomes a lot more powerful. Brinstar is a prime example of characters like G&W becoming immensely hard to beat on that stage for anyone not named MK. There are some stages that are temporarily like this, generally those that allow sharking are strong for the characters. My point is that while planking IS a problem with those characters on some stages, on the majority it's entirely feasible to stop it with a large portion of the cast.

3. Tommy don't make me flarble garble you. Don't keep telling people "Oh yeah Pit is so good at planking, adnakjdajkda". Frame data and hitbox info doesn't lie son, don't force me to make a long list of reasons why MK planks better than Pit. Cause Long Lists take time to read, and they slowly erode the soul into nothingness as you wallow in despair over the fact that I am right.

 

[Shaya]

You heard DMG,

ban MK.
Or G&W on jungle japes

 

[NJzFinest]

Ok... MK is better then everyone else at those things / better overall period.

Hence being the best character in a game lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That's so dumb, I also got my Snake good with like two weeks worth of practice and beat ADHD last year.

Its not the character its the player

Ah. So in other words, taking away your main is setting you back 2 years. Can't have it both ways, son. I'd call this "debunked". :V

We could make those side events mean something.

Like, for instance, you HAVE to compete, or else you don't win money from the MK-legal tourney.

Maybe your entry fee, say it's $5.00, gets split in half and half of it goes towards an MK legal pot, and the other half goes towards an MK banned pot. And you don't get money from placing top 3 in either one unless you compete in both.

That way you don't have to seperately pay for a different entry it's all covered from one entry fee that you have to pay for if you want to enter the normal tournament, and there's equal money on the line for the MK banned tourneys and the MK legal tourneys, and you have to play in both if you want money.

Meh there's probably problems in there somewhere, it's just a random idea I came up with just now

This is a really, really good idea. Seriously! It would:
-Penalize players for maining only MK with no secondaries
-Gather serious tournament data for an MK-less metagame with some seriousness.
-Show how far MK is carrying people
-Make it so that MK mains don't completely lose all opportunity of earning money for maining MK without backup characters (reasonable compromise). This is solid as ****, excellent post.

Why would they WANT to sandbag, though? They've already paid for their MK banned entry fee, and there's more money on the line for playing in it. Plus the fact that top MK players doing awfully in the MK banned tourneys just looks bad for anti-ban, thus doing so gives a higher chance for their character to be banned.

This. If the MK mains basically go and throw the MK-banned tournament, then what they are doing is saying, "Metaknight is such a huge advantage to me that I cannot win without him.


We should do this. We really, really should.

 

[Gnes]

@saleb

ADHD was losing when UTDZac was planking him with Gnw. called over the TO and the TO threaten to make UTDZac forfeit the match if he caught him planking again.

just trying to say that MK planking isn't the only thing people have a problem with. basically stopped gnw from camping just because diddy kong couldn't deal with it.

UH thats not what happened

 

[Kewkky]

Forcing the players to play both tourneys, unable table? Well, I can think of a couple of problems off the top of my head...

1) What if one of the money-placers has to go right after the tourney? He won't be able to play in the MK-Banned side event because he'd have to leave, so what would happen to his money? What would happen if a couple of money-placers started using that excuse to just take their normal winnings and leave without playing in the MK-Banned side-tourney? They'd be bending the rules about how "you must compete in both if you want money", since you can't deny paying them for what they worked for IF they are forced to leave, right? Would you have to ask them about their personal reasons as to why they'd need to leave, before deciding if you want to pay them or not?

2) There's the time problem... How would we arrange this to fit within the tourney schedule, without dragging on the tourney for too long? Some venues have strict rules as to when they will close, and we can't extend tourneys for the sake of experimentation if the venue doesn't allow us past 10pm, for example. Would we have to start earlier than what we do now? There would be more matches for the same amount of setups, and if we take long now as it is, then by forcing others to play MK-Banned side-tourneys if they want to get payed, I can only see tourneys taking far longer than how it does now.

3) What about people who don't place in the money? Essentially, the only ones who are FORCED to play are the ones who won the normal tourney, so no effective data will come from it if some people decide they're not gonna win anything with how the top players are playing, right? Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely play because I know I can place in the money (even more so in MK-Banned events), but there's always the possibility that people will get demoralized or bored during the first tourney, or they'd want to do friendlies with friends or money-matches with the pros, and not want to play another tourney during the same day. Singles, Teams, MK-Banned, Melee Singles, Melee Teams... That's usually what tourneys hold, and that's a buttload of time if you ask me!

4) There's also the fact that people will get tired by playing for extended periods of time. Money-placers or not, one or two tourneys a day is enough for most people, they usually just wanna go eat out with their friends after they receive their money and then head to their house and sleep. By extending tourneys like how you said (forcing players), you'd be taking this from many players due to them probably finishing and being too tired to want to do anything else, thus the good times players have in tourneys will decay, and people might start losing interest in going to as many tourneys as they do now.

5) AGH! I had a FIFTH THING and I forgot! I hate forgetting!


Anyway, yeah.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Well, the thing is, I'm not talking about when MK goes aggro like the way you're describing; even I can handle MK if he's throwing out moves like a wild boar... I'm talking more about the somewhat defensive way MK plays.

Like, when he does rising Dairs up the butt to aircamp, followed by Nado if he's out of jumps. At this point, the MK will move onto you with Nado, and if your shield's up, MK moves away within maybe a fourth of the duration of the move has played out. If MK retreated Nado at that point, he laglessly lands, and does something(usually SL, but it can honestly be anything) if you try to punish. And of course, if you don't try to punish, he goes back to the Dairs.

Okay, so everything I said pretty much still applies. You can space near enough to him for him to keep doing the SH D-airs and walk or dash, shield, and punish. If he's going to Nado when he's out of jumps, you can either shield, wait and punish before it lands like I described (and yes, not all characters can do this, oh well), or you just don't even get hit by Tornado, walk/run away, space yourself out of it, then punish when it ends (and all characters should be able to do this). Or, when he lands from Tornado, you shield regardless, as at that distance nothing he does is actually safe on shield except shuttle loop, which you can still punish if you space right under and maybe slightly below him, and he tries to glide attack you for it. Or, if he starts grabbing you for that, spotdodge, or go away and wait for him to start D-airing for you to punish because that's more punishable. Or you're a character with a projectile and hit him regardless.

If he's low with the D-airs, which in this situation you're describing he should be, he's more easily punished, and if he's high with the D-airs he obviously can't tornado to auto-cancel so you can try to hit him when he's out of jumps.

The point is that this is hardly an unbeatable strategy because nothing MK does in this situation is unpunishable. and I'm not sure why you think it is. As I've said, obviously if it were it would be used tons more often than it is now, as there's no way you're the first person to theorycraft this in two years.

 

[DMG]

Dair camping is strong, you have to understand the subtleties of it though. Most patterns of Dair planking are punishable, but on its own with independent thinking and reacting, it's VERY strong. It's a safe way of preventing the opponent from reaching you, without having to be on the ground shielding or around the edge.

 

[Shaya]

without having to be on the ground shielding

You know there's a particular song out there that covers what happens when MK forces you into that situation.

Honestly though, if MK didn't have Tornado nor Dimension Cape, he'd be a pretty non-broken character

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Forcing the players to play both tourneys, unable table? Well, I can think of a couple of problems off the top of my head...

1) What if one of the money-placers has to go right after the tourney? He won't be able to play in the MK-Banned side event because he'd have to leave, so what would happen to his money? What would happen if a couple of money-placers started using that excuse to just take their normal winnings and leave without playing in the MK-Banned side-tourney? They'd be bending the rules about how "you must compete in both if you want money", since you can't deny paying them for what they worked for IF they are forced to leave, right? Would you have to ask them about their personal reasons as to why they'd need to leave, before deciding if you want to pay them or not?

You don't lose all your winnings if you don't go to the MK ban thing. It's like, you pay entrance once, but the pot for both events are the same size, split from the main entry fee. If you win big in the MK-legal event, you win less than if you participate at both and win both, and half of what you would've at just the MK-legal event before.

2) There's the time problem... How would we arrange this to fit within the tourney schedule, without dragging on the tourney for too long? Some venues have strict rules as to when they will close, and we can't extend tourneys for the sake of experimentation if the venue doesn't allow us past 10pm, for example. Would we have to start earlier than what we do now? There would be more matches for the same amount of setups, and if we take long now as it is, then by forcing others to play MK-Banned side-tourneys if they want to get payed, I can only see tourneys taking far longer than how it does now.

Okay, this is an issue.

3) What about people who don't place in the money? Essentially, the only ones who are FORCED to play are the ones who won the normal tourney, so no effective data will come from it if some people decide they're not gonna win anything with how the top players are playing, right? Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely play because I know I can place in the money (even more so in MK-Banned events), but there's always the possibility that people will get demoralized or bored during the first tourney, or they'd want to do friendlies with friends or money-matches with the pros, and not want to play another tourney during the same day. Singles, Teams, MK-Banned, Melee Singles, Melee Teams... That's usually what tourneys hold, and that's a buttload of time if you ask me!

I dunno. It's iffy.

4) There's also the fact that people will get tired by playing for extended periods of time. Money-placers or not, one or two tourneys a day is enough for most people, they usually just wanna go eat out with their friends after they receive their money and then head to their house and sleep. By extending tourneys like how you said (forcing players), you'd be taking this from many players due to them probably finishing and being too tired to want to do anything else, thus the good times players have in tourneys will decay, and people might start losing interest in going to as many tourneys as they do now.

How about running the pools/brackets parallel? Allow a little more time for both, but basically run two events in the same time period.

 

[AfroQT]

Honestly though, if MK didn't have Tornado nor Dimension Cape, he'd be a pretty non-broken character

haha wtf rofl

 

[Tommy_G]

B-2/C-3 You hit him with a projectile and laugh at how he pathetically flops to his death under the stage.

Totally valid strategy. :V

You can't because you're either too busy recovering from getting a hit from the up air or you don't have a projectile.

That was a stupid example that should never happen. He could have air dodged or not jump that high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oE1HX5TGwQ

 

[OverLade]

Pit sucks. It doesn't mater if he can plank because even if his planking was as good as MKs his ground game is really average and his recovery is more easily gimped.

When MK planks, standing by the ledge even is dangerous because all of his options to attack you from it are really dumb and fast. Pit just has Arrows and Uair. Uair is laggy as hell and you can powershield to ledgehog is (snake can nade shield it) and the arrow...well, it's an arrow.

There's just no comparison.

And same thing with Melee fox vs MK. You're literally trying to apply things that look the same and saying it has the same end result. The arguement isnt' valid because the end result is completely different. If MK had 3 even matchups that were ACTUALLY even, and not only even, but required roughly the same amount of knowledge and effort to play from both sides, then he wouldn't be a problem at all.

Snake vs MK, the only possible even matchup requires a lot more knowledge and tech skill on the part of the snake player than the MK player.

 

[NJzFinest]

What happened to MK vs Falco/Diddy?

Fox's "even" matchups aren't actually even too, hence the reason they're so controversial and come down to how the Fox plays.

And Pikachu doesn't have a single even matchup. He has a "solid positive" in everything.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What happened to MK vs Falco/Diddy?

Fox's "even" matchups aren't actually even, hence the reason they're so controversial and come down to how the Fox plays.

And Pikachu doesn't have a single even matchup. He has a "solid positive" in everything.

Falco gets completely destroyed whenever MK is allowed to ledgecamp (not plank, ledgecamp-there is a difference which LGLs don't cover). Even without that, it's not even.

Diddy... Ask the top diddies who keep showing up here. It's not only not even, they claim the **** they're hiding makes it closer to 70-30 than 50-50.

Pikachu is also, like MK, borderine banworthy.

Fox does not seem to be a problem in melee.

Also guys, Tier Wars is ****ing pimp

 

[hotgarbage]

This Fox vs. MK thing is silly.

MK has this ridiculous 13,395 post 273,781 views thread dedicated him; said thread being but a piece of the community-encompassing debate that continued since Brawl's release.

Fox has...... people complaining about jiggs???


The two are clearly in completely different leagues. If you try hard enough you can form an argument out of specifics that "looks good", but when you step back and look at the situation the reality is obvious.

 

[Tien2500]

This Fox vs. MK thing is silly.

MK has this ridiculous 13,395 post 273,781 views thread dedicated him; said thread being but a piece of the community-encompassing debate that continued since Brawl's release.

Fox has...... people complaining about jiggs???


The two are clearly in completely different leagues. If you try hard enough you can form an argument out of specifics that "looks good", but when you step back and look at the situation the reality is obvious.

I remember when the whole MK ban debate started Alpha Zealot (I think not 100% sure) tried to prove that the most dominant character in Melee was as dominant as MK... except he was trying to show that with Marth. Now people are arguing that it's Fox, and Jigglypuff is having a ton of success too. So it seems like there are other characters in Fox's league.

I'm not a Melee expert, but I think the main difference is that Fox stands to take a large amount of damage per mistake as opposed to MK, who can generally reset his position after one or two hits.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lol the info in this thread greatly amuses me. I will just state some blatantly obvious points, and be done for a few hours:

1. Pit is nowhere near as good as MK on the edge in any aspect. Planking, scrooging, whatever you think involves the edge MK does it noticeably better. There are obvious exploitable holes there for you to take advantage of. The next person that says Pit can plank Similar to MK I'm gonna literally write a 9 page report on why you are wrong, with Pie Charts and graphs and diagrams galore.

So I hear Pit's planking is better than MK.


...I just wanna read that report lol.

 

[Thebest1pj]

pits planking is better then mks he has arrows son

 

[Tommy_G]

Just because MK has more options to not get hit while planking doesn't mean Pit can't plank.

Example: MK has 5 options to where he won't get hit unless predicted.
Pit has 3 options to where he won't get hit unless predicted.

If you guess wrong and put yourself in a dangerous position, Pit gets damage on you or a gimp if you have a bad recovery.
If he guesses wrong, the worst that could happen is a bit of damage. He should never get gimped under the stage.

Planking is a problem regardless of MK being able to plank better. Banning planking is more important than banning MK.

Edit: where's that report?

 

[NJzFinest]

This Fox vs. MK thing is silly.

MK has this ridiculous 13,395 post 273,781 views thread dedicated him; said thread being but a piece of the community-encompassing debate that continued since Brawl's release.

Brawl is more popular.

Fox has...... people complaining about jiggs???

Yet they still agree that Fox is the best counter to this character. Jigglypuff counters players moreso then the top characters. There's only a few Puff players that do that successful anyways, and in back them is a mountain of Fox players. If I'm not mistaken, it's pretty similar to what we see with MK in Brawl. If M2K isn't 1/2nd, we see a Diddy/Snake and then a bunch of MKs after them.

Melee is also a much older game and people have adapted. Back when I started in 05, if you didn't secondary Sheik, you shouldn't be entering tourneys.
Haha, the good old days

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just because MK has more options to not get hit while planking doesn't mean Pit can't plank.

Example: MK has 5 options to where he won't get hit unless predicted.
Pit has 3 options to where he won't get hit unless predicted.

If you guess wrong and put yourself in a dangerous position, Pit gets damage on you or a gimp if you have a bad recovery.
If he guesses wrong, the worst that could happen is a bit of damage. He should never get gimped under the stage.

Planking is a problem regardless of MK being able to plank better. Banning planking is more important than banning MK.

Edit: where's that report?

SHUT UP AND LOOK AT THE GOD**** FRAME DATA. OH MY GOD I WISH I COULD EVEN SAY YOU ARE A STUPID POSTER COMPARATIVELY FOR THIS THREAD BUT WE'VE HAD ORION AND POTTYJOKES.

MK has a 6-frame window, all of which is covered by a massively disjointed hitbox above him. Additionally, he can decide to stop from grabbing the ledge and is still offstage with a massive number of ridiculously safe options. He can also start his procedure, do a whole uair, and then decide, "nah, I'm good" and either hop around in the air for a while, glide under the stage, or pull any number of other bull**** tricks. If you get hit offstage by MK, your stock is gone 90% of the time.

Pit?