Official Metaknight Discussion

[SwastikaPyle]

why would tyrant sandbag its tourney. Unless he didnt use mk I doubt he was sandbagging, and even then hed be trying to win

Technically, anyone who doesn't play MK is sandbagging, according to the tier list right above this topic.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What makes you think matches will run longer just because the timer is longer? If we put on a 20 minute timer, do you think it would really change how much longer people try to stall? What if we put on a 99 minute timer? The only purpose would be so that Wario players know when to fart.

That in conjunction with 30-40 ledgegrabs means people can't just **** around the whole time and have to fight each other.

I'll take that as a challenge.

 

[etecoon]

**** farting, that timer is there so I know when to throw you at my C4 : )

 

[rathy Aro]

I'll take that as a challenge.

If you intentionally try to stall out a tournament the TO would probably kick you out. Be realistic.

 

[ANTi_]

I can't believe people are surprised that people would discuss a topic on a website that is designed for discussion on anything smash related.

@Anti you beat ADHD in bracket with Snake? If so gj. If not it doesn't matter.

Ughh duhh in bracket, why would i mention it if i wasn't.

It was like 5 times in bracket.

 

[Akaku94]

I actually think there's some merit to the idea of MK-banned side events for a few months. It could give some preliminary data as to the Metagame without MK, as well as MK Mains' ability to perform without him, both of which would help out this discussion very well. The idea of a $10 entry fee with $5 going to each pot is a decent idea, though some MK mains might boycott... but I guess that wouldn't reflect well on their position, now would it?

Anyway, I think this rapidly deteriorating topic will get a bit of a jump-start when Crow posts his experimental ruleset...

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you intentionally try to stall out a tournament the TO would probably kick you out. Be realistic.

The point I'm trying to make is TO 101:

"Never assume your matches will take anything less then the timer".



What having an exceptionally long timer is gonna encourage is for people to test each other's patience, 8 minutes it's reasonable for both players to be able to wait, so they know the other guy is gonna approach, eventually. However, most people in the community have a decided lack of patience, so I see a lot of people down by percents avoiding an approach until their opponent's patience runs out, what happens when you have two patient players fighting each other?


Exactly, we'll get a ridiculously long match that simply CANNOT be accounted for in the TO's timeline, because we cannot expect the TO to alot several hours to each set.



Never alot anything less to a set then the timer specifies, unless you wanna get burned.




I was going for a little more subtle, but now I think you get the message.

 

[NJzFinest]

Uh brinstar...

even matchups...Yep...

continue on...

Fox good on brinstar....

Both Fox and MK have arguably even matchups. Melee Sheik/Falco/Marth; Brawl Snake/Falco/Diddy.
But most people stress if Fox/MK are played "perfectly/correctly", no character matters.

Seriously, stick to the Melee boards, where you have some credibility or knowledge... anyone with experience in both games knows that Melee Fox and Brawl MK are not comparable this way...

Pretty sure I'd **** you in Brawl.

Fox has counters, not MK

Who the hell counters Fox?

Fox has bad legal stages, not MK

Enlighten me.... stages are banned because of Fox....
I've been checking up on the tourney scene for ages and many stages I used to play on aren't playable these days because of spacies.

Fox has weaknesses, not MK

Enlighten me again lol

Smash 64 Pikachu doesn't have a counter or at least an even matchup, better than MK.
Smash 64 Pikachu doesn't have bad legal stages, like MK
Pikachu has no weaknesses, like MK(stupid statement because imo, both MK and Pikachu have their own problems.)
Wins players get with Smash 64 Pikachu are often discredited because of the level Pikachu is at....not even MK has that.
Smash 64 Pikachu isn't banned....MK is not close to Pikachu's level of ban-ability.

This^^^

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Fox doesn't exactly have counters but he certainly has abusable weaknesses. Jman declared the matchup was in Falco's favor a little while ago.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Maybe 64 pikachu IS banworthy.


The thing is, the scene lacks the manpower to effectively judge regardless, I honestly don't know.

 

[OverLade]

Fox good on brinstar....

There are characters that have advantages vs Fox on brinstar. It's not a CP he can get free wins on. In fact almost nobody in melee can get free wins from stages. Reads will still always be more important.

Both Fox and MK have arguably even matchups. Melee Sheik/Falco/Marth; Brawl Snake/Falco/Diddy.
But most people stress if Fox/MK are played "perfectly/correctly", no character matters.

And MK has only advantageous matchups, whereas Fox has several even matchups.

And playing Fox perfectly doesn't mean anything, both characters are **** for different reasons. Mk has laser priority, meaning if you space everything and make it lagless nobod can touch him. Fox can still easily be 0-deathed by several members of the cast based on reads. MK can be safe doing things regardless of being read.

Who the hell counters Fox?

At even the highest level of play, Fox doesn't win because fox being anywhere near broken is far beyond the comprehensible levels of play for even our best players. MK is another story.

If you compare MK to fox you're ****ing stupid. There's no comparison at all.

And concerning Smash 64 and Melee, Fox and Pikachu can both be 0-deathed, meaning that matches will still be based on reads (fox is one of the easiest characters to combo in melee in fact). MK is the hardest character to combo in brawl because of his 2 frame attacks with good range and laser priority.

You're basically just taking facts and taking them out of context.

MK can win a set even if he never won it.

MK is justice.

 

[PottyJokes]

prob because mango keeps stomping him with his falco

 

[NJzFinest]

There are characters that have advantages vs Fox on brinstar. It's not a CP he can get free wins on. In fact almost nobody in melee can get free wins from stages. Reads will still always be more important.

No, they just throw off the typical no brain Fox players. Most people who play spacies are far too used to neutrals.
It's pretty much countering the player, instead of the actual character. And it surprisingly plays out the way it should (Fox winning). For example, Plank taking Axe to brinstar and using Puff just to get ***** by his Fox haha. Fox is the best character on Brinstar, it's just awkward/inconvenient for most people.
Trust me, Midwest melee players where the ones who started the whole gay stage counterpick nonsense and I've been living with these guys/ that community for the past 3 years. It's just to throw people off.

And MK has only advantageous matchups, whereas Fox has several even matchups.

Again, only matchups for Fox that can be considered even are Sheik/Falco/Marth and that's only dependent on how the Fox is played. People always leave the part that's like "well, if the fox is gay/campy/smart, then it's advantage Fox".
From what I've seen, pretty sure the same goes for Snake/Falco/Diddy vs MK.

And playing Fox perfectly doesn't mean anything, both characters are **** for different reasons. Mk has laser priority, meaning if you space everything and make it lagless nobod can touch him.

OK... and what does a perfect/correct Fox do? lol...

Fox can still easily be 0-deathed by several members of the cast based on reads. MK can be safe doing things regardless of being read.

I will admit that he's a combo bag, but easily be 0-deathed? Um... no? You have to setup on Fox first lol... gl with that.

At even the highest level of play, Fox doesn't win because fox being anywhere near broken is far beyond the comprehensible levels of play for even our best players. MK is another story.

My question was who counters Fox and this doesn't answer it.

And concerning Smash 64 and Melee, Fox and Pikachu can both be 0-deathed, meaning that matches will still be based on reads (fox is one of the easiest characters to combo in melee in fact). MK is the hardest character to combo in brawl because of his 2 frame attacks with good range and laser priority.

Who 0 to deaths Pikachu? Maybe if you're stupid enough to go fight on the right side of Hyrule against Fox and use 0 DI.

edit:

Actually, if you fight against another Pikachu, then yeah, expect some of those gay combos regardless.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I hope that the brwal players who are currently debating melee currently play the game competitively on a regular basis...


10nowayinhells.

 

[Thinkaman]

Maybe 64 pikachu IS banworthy.

The thing is, the scene lacks the manpower to effectively judge regardless, I honestly don't know.

Yeah, this is true. Honestly 64 Pikachu might be worth banning, it's pretty close.

This is anecdotal, but I found myself at a party once where some guys were playing 64; apparently they played it pretty competitively on a constant basis. I myself have never tried to get good at at the game, but obviously know my way around. Any way, they stomped me in most matchups, except when I was Pikachu and they were not. Even against Fox and Ness, I was able to 5-stock them with Pikachu.

Unexperienced players don't pickup Meta Knight or any Melee character and beat competitive players, much less 5-stock.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

sigh...stop arguing and cast a vote so we can ban this stupid character and see if results change...****...

 

[NJzFinest]

See if result change?

Of course they're gonna change if the best character is out lol, it's like that for any game.

 

[napZzz]

LOL Yeah, M2k's 200 first place prize (that's being pretty generous) winnings are paying his tuition, which is thousands of dollars total. Right.

MLG got him like 4,000$

Any other big tourney he goes too and wins he almost always gets 1st in dubs AND singles and when you add up a 10$ entry fee with around 50+ people well, do the math yourself. I'm sure he hits up at least a few each month too, lol

People are dumb, if mk was gone alot more characters would be more tourney viable and there wouldn't really be a dominant force. DDD would become popular again helping keep snake in check, marth would be really good, it keeps going in an overall balance where everything is kept in check like a normal fighting game with one character who's just a little bit better than the rest

but who cares because anti ban mk's will be like hey **** you I main this character shutup

at least ONE REGIONAL where mk is banned would be nice, :/

 

[PottyJokes]

yeah man nappy would be winning tournaments worldwide if the temp ban happened.

 

[Tommy_G]

And concerning Smash 64 and Melee, Fox and Pikachu can both be 0-deathed, meaning that matches will still be based on reads (fox is one of the easiest characters to combo in melee in fact). MK is the hardest character to combo in brawl because of his 2 frame attacks with good range and laser priority.

In Smash 64(a game I've played competitively for 2 years) no one can 0-death Pikachu if he sits next to the ledge. Imo Pikachu ledge guards is far worst than MK. Gain the lead, sit next to a ledge, wait until they mess up, then throw them off the stage.

Pikachu's up B is invulnerable starting on frame 1 and lasting until he starts moving.

People are dumb, if mk was gone alot more characters would be more tourney viable and there wouldn't really be a dominant force. DDD would become popular again helping keep snake in check, marth would be really good, it keeps going in an overall balance where everything is kept in check like a normal fighting game with one character who's just a little bit better than the rest

Falco counters DDD.
The "Surge of new DDD" you say that come around would knock down Marth.

There is no character that gets a huge boost on character viability from MK being gone.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous.

 

[PottyJokes]

but tommy_g, i'd rather see the 6 chars below MK chain grab each other rather than watch the least boring character in brawl. it'd do well for brawl's reputation.

 

[napZzz]

yeah man nappy would be winning tournaments worldwide if the temp ban happened.

obvious troll is obvious

 

[Tommy_G]

but tommy_g, i'd rather see the 6 chars below MK chain grab each other rather than watch the least boring character in brawl. it'd do well for brawl's reputation.

Apparently you didn't see when they posted this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QijsuAnngSY

I don't like watching DDD matches. Let's ban him. */sarcasm*
Not wanting to watch MK isn't criteria to ban him.

Unless you weren't being serious..... then to that I say "ahhh good sheeeee"

MK is the best character in the game.
Does he give the player a significant enough advantage in winning a game?
No.

 

[napZzz]

an advantage vs. any non mk character is still an unfair advantage. No even matchups either. Yeah, he's pretty legit

if you look at the top characters in other games they're usually good, but not mk good. Lets take a look at ryu in sfIV

he 6/4's quite a bit of the cast, but has plenty of even matchups to make it so he's not THAT good.

Metaknight? Constant advantage all the way throughout with no even matchups even, let alone a bad one thats just slightly out of his favor. People struggle to argue that like, 2 or 3 characters MIGHT go even with him

when you beat every character in the game, even if its not by a significant margin, YOU STILL BEAT THEM ALL AND ALWAYS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE

pretty legit imo

 

[Tommy_G]

an advantage vs. any non mk character is still an unfair advantage. No even matchups either. Yeah, he's pretty legit

if you look at the top characters in other games they're usually good, but not mk good. Lets take a look at ryu in sfIV
WHAT?!? lmao Ryu? Why would you even bring him up? He's not even the best character in that game.

he 6/4's quite a bit of the cast, but has plenty of even matchups to make it so he's not THAT good.

Metaknight? Constant advantage all the way throughout with no even matchups even, let alone a bad one thats just slightly out of his favor. People struggle to argue that like, 2 or 3 characters MIGHT go even with him

when you beat every character in the game, even if its not by a significant margin, YOU STILL BEAT THEM ALL AND ALWAYS HAVE AN ADVANTAGE

pretty legit imo

A Street Fighter 6/4 is nothing like a Brawl 6/4.

Don't bring Street fighter into this. I can go the same route and say MK isn't as ban as Akuma because MK doesn't have a cycle pattern of a few moves that make him unbeatable.
(^^^not serious^^^)

Comparing 2 games that are that different is pointless.
"Is an apple sweet?"..." Idk Oranges are fruits and they're not sweet, so Apples probably aren't either."

MK isn't bannable. He's just the best.

 

[jinkogunai]

ive been reading this thread for sometime, but i've really yet to see some solid evidence (aside from a political standpoint) why he isn't bannable. could someone please explain in detail, non-politically, why he isn't?

 

[Tommy_G]

ive been reading this thread for sometime, but i've really yet to see some solid evidence (aside from a political standpoint) why he isn't bannable. could someone please explain in detail, non-politically, why he isn't?

He doesn't have a tactic that is specifically exclusive to him that is unbeatable or something that gives him a severe advantage over everyone in the game. In fact, a lot of the stuff he does is punishable if the other player doesn't run in without thinking.

 

[AvaricePanda]

@jinko,
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9887018&postcount=9950
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10296961&postcount=12456

I know people have responded to this, hold on. This is rough and I rambled a lot, but it's my viewpoints. As of why he can't be banned right at this moment, it's because of MLG, but at any point it's not that he can't be banned, it's just that some people believe he shouldn't be.

 

[salaboB]

MK isn't bannable. He's just the best.

To not ban him, we have to restrict certain stages and add an LGL.

Just for MK.

If you wanted to, you could have made Akuma non-bannable by restricting enough of his moves too.

 

[solecalibur]

Apparently you didn't see when they posted this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QijsuAnngSY

I don't like watching DDD matches. Let's ban him. */sarcasm*
Not wanting to watch MK isn't criteria to ban him.

Unless you weren't being serious..... then to that I say "ahhh good sheeeee"

MK is the best character in the game.
Does he give the player a significant enough advantage in winning a game?
No.

A snake was trying to outcamp a falco of course that video is going to look lame , I mean jeeze look at the date

and your last statement Im not quite sure how to respond other then saying look at who places on top compared to other characters as I hear of more metaknights winning or coming close to winning (overall not just tounry x where all y metaknight mains decided not to go to) and its not just about getting first but what is also below first , we've also seen a tounry in texas where there were 8 metas in the top 8 because gnes and razor didnt come , does this mean we should not main metaknight because two people in a major smash sense takes down the big bad metaknights? while the rest are just in a corner going ....urghh??

when you reply to this statement be sure to reply to all of it and not just one little sentence like you normally do =) (not tommy antiban in general)

He doesn't have a tactic that is specifically exclusive to him that is unbeatable or something that gives him a severe advantage over everyone in the game. In fact, a lot of the stuff he does is punishable if the other player doesn't run in without thinking.

even though the rule isnt in effect nationally we still have LGL going on for only one character and Im sure you've seen some matches before

 

[Tien2500]

He doesn't have a tactic that is specifically exclusive to him that is unbeatable or something that gives him a severe advantage over everyone in the game. In fact, a lot of the stuff he does is punishable if the other player doesn't run in without thinking.

Actually, he has two (possibly 3) tactics exclusive to him that are unbeatable that we made rules to accomodate.

 

[Tommy_G]

Pit, Marth, and GaW can effectively ledge camp against Falco and a lot of other characters that have trouble on the ledge.
Pit and ROB can effectively scrooge.
Infinite dimensional cape is never going to time someone out. Regardless, it has the potential to be a stalling technique, so it's banned, just like Sonic's spin ball trick under the stage.

These problems are banned not because of MK, but because of the threat it poses to the game with everyone doing it.

Spoilers: Snake outcamps Falco.

 

[theunabletable]

when you reply to this statement be sure to reply to all of it and not just one little sentence like you normally do =) (not tommy antiban in general)

I like responding to just one sentence, though!

ucwatididthar?

@Tommy_G: Pit, Marth, and G&W's planking isn't anywhere near the same level as MK's, though.

 

[salaboB]

Pit, Marth, and GaW can effectively ledge camp against Falco and a lot of other characters that have trouble on the ledge.
Pit and ROB can effectively scrooge.

We don't ban DDD's infinite throw just because it shuts down 6 characters.

We don't stop planking just because Falco can't deal with it.

 

[Tommy_G]

I like responding to just one sentence, though!

ucwatididthar?

@Tommy_G: Pit, Marth, and G&W's planking isn't anywhere near the same level as MK's, though.

I'd prefer planking banned more than MK banned with those characters still having the ability to plank.
The BBR have decided planking is more of a detriment to the game than mk is.

We don't ban DDD's infinite throw just because it shuts down 6 characters.
Ummmm they ban it at a lot of places and it's 5 characters(Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Samus, and DK)
Wait that one part of DDD makes 5 characters unviable? I'm pretty sure than MK doesn't have a currently legal tactic that makes that many characters unviable.

We don't stop planking just because Falco can't deal with it.
Not just Falco.

 

[Tien2500]

Pit, Marth, and GaW can effectively ledge camp against Falco and a lot of other characters that have trouble on the ledge.
Pit and ROB can effectively scrooge.
Infinite dimensional cape is never going to time someone out. Regardless, it has the potential to be a stalling technique, so it's banned, just like Sonic's spin ball trick under the stage.

These problems are banned not because of MK, but because of the threat it poses to the game with everyone doing it.

Spoilers: Snake outcamps Falco.

Dude, read the frame data on MK's planking. I'd also assume that his moveset, and ability to glide twice would make him a far more effective scrooger.

 

[John12346]

MK has Daircamping to laglessly ended Tornado to grounded Shuttle Loop. How is that defeated?

And don't say MK will get grabbed after Nado; he knows to move away if he notices your shield is up.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

ROB can effectively scrooge.

What? You do know rob doesn't regain fuel while on the edge right? He can't scrooge without landing on the stage for a long time lol

 

[theunabletable]

MK has Daircamping to laglessly ended Tornado to grounded Shuttle Loop. How is that defeated?

And don't say MK will get grabbed after Nado; he knows to move away if he notices your shield is up.

Punish the tornado before it lands.