Official Metaknight Discussion

[Chuee]

SHUT UP AND LOOK AT THE GOD**** FRAME DATA. OH MY GOD I WISH I COULD EVEN SAY YOU ARE A STUPID POSTER COMPARATIVELY FOR THIS THREAD BUT WE'VE HAD ORION AND POTTYJOKES.

Dude, PottyJokes has been the best poster in this thread so far.

 

[Tommy_G]

SHUT UP AND LOOK AT THE GOD**** FRAME DATA. OH MY GOD I WISH I COULD EVEN SAY YOU ARE A STUPID POSTER COMPARATIVELY FOR THIS THREAD BUT WE'VE HAD ORION AND POTTYJOKES.

MK has a 6-frame window, all of which is covered by a massively disjointed hitbox above him. Additionally, he can decide to stop from grabbing the ledge and is still offstage with a massive number of ridiculously safe options. He can also start his procedure, do a whole uair, and then decide, "nah, I'm good" and either hop around in the air for a while, glide under the stage, or pull any number of other bull**** tricks. If you get hit offstage by MK, your stock is gone 90% of the time.

Pit?

Did you even read what I said...........................before you went on your little, 5-year-old girl rant.

I said MK can plank the best, but planking is still a problem with the other characters. Planking is more of a problem than MK is.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Did you even read what I said...........................before you went on your little, 5-year-old girl rant.

I said MK can plank the best, but planking is still a problem with the other characters. Planking is more of a problem than MK is.

Actually, what the frame data and analysis says is that the other characters' planking is beatable. I'm confused, I suppose, because you were previously advocating that Pit's planking was better than/as good as/even close to the same level as MK's.

 

[Tommy_G]

If someone has a 5 frame window of vulnerability with an aerial that zones you out to a point where it takes you 6 frames to get to them, then technically it's not punishable. Frame data doesn't account for a lot of these variables.

 

[etecoon]

why do you waste your time arguing with someone that doesn't even play this game competitively

he couldn't understand what you mean when you say that planking in general is a problem

 

[NJzFinest]

If you get hit offstage by MK, your stock is gone 90% of the time.

lolwut

Spoiler

10lolwuts

 

[6Mizu]

.

AlphaZelot, Marc, and myself(The three people in charge of the SBR-B for those who weren't aware) are discussing the matter privately for now. Once we decide how we want to approach this we will let you know. Any topics from one of us will be official.

Is Hylian lying to us about his?
and also,
Why are we discussing MK at all?
Because it makes us fell better...about MK?

 

[OverLade]

lolwut

Spoiler

10lolwuts

I gimp people 90% of the times I Bthrow them off the stage.

I'm not good, MK is just autowin. GGs.

 

[-Ran]

I'm not good...

Hard truths. =p

 

[PottyJokes]

Yeah redhal is trash. thats why he got ****ed up by Razer at hobo. he's terrible. who uses MK and loses to razer? oh yeah redhal does.

 

[-Ran]

Actually, the match was pretty **** close. I was there.

 

[PottyJokes]

yeah idc how close it was. redhal lost when he was using a character 3-27x better than snake. he's trash.

 

[NJzFinest]

I gimp people 90% of the times I Bthrow them off the stage.

I'm not good, MK is just autowin. GGs.

I don't auto die even when good players through me off the stage haha. And unfortunately, I don't see this much from MKs even as good as M2K.

I mean, I guess on paper, it can/should happen. But same goes with shinespikes in melee. They only come back if Fox messes up

 

[6Mizu]

I gimp people 90% of the times I Bthrow them off the stage.

I'm not good, MK is just autowin. GGs.

Hard truths. =p

"It obvious that with out him as a player I'd be trash right?"

 

[DMG]

Just because MK has more options to not get hit while planking doesn't mean Pit can't plank.

Example: MK has 5 options to where he won't get hit unless predicted.
Pit has 3 options to where he won't get hit unless predicted.

If you guess wrong and put yourself in a dangerous position, Pit gets damage on you or a gimp if you have a bad recovery.
If he guesses wrong, the worst that could happen is a bit of damage. He should never get gimped under the stage.

Planking is a problem regardless of MK being able to plank better. Banning planking is more important than banning MK.

Edit: where's that report?

HAHAHAHAHASODJAIDJIAJDOAJDOADJDOAJDAO

U sir are funny.

Did you even read what I said...........................before you went on your little, 5-year-old girl rant.

I said MK can plank the best, but planking is still a problem with the other characters. Planking is more of a problem than MK is.

Nope incorrect. Do you know the frame data for this?

If someone has a 5 frame window of vulnerability with an aerial that zones you out to a point where it takes you 6 frames to get to them, then technically it's not punishable. Frame data doesn't account for a lot of these variables.

YEEEEEEP you haven't read or don't know the frame data do you.

Pit's Uair is so slow, that people can edge hog before it starts. Meaning if you are onstage, and try to run off and grab the edge at the same time he starts Uair, you get to grab the edge safely.

Then, Pit loses invincibility completely before his Uair even ends. This is assuming Pit falls with it IMMEDIATELY, not him dropping down, spacing a DJ Uair which takes longer and gives him little remaining invincibility. This means that most of the time, whenever you see Pit drop down DJ Uair, you CAN beat it out with an attack as he is doing the move.

Next, you have the fact that he can't grab the edge again with complete invincibility, or with a small window of vulnerability like MK. He doesn't have that luxury.

You also have the fact that you can SDI out of his Uair and punish. But that might be too complicated for you to ponder and realize, so I'm not gonna get into that really.

My point is that yes, if you actually do your homework, you find out that other characters can't do it to the extent that MK can. Meaning all of this BS about "Oh ok MK has 5 great options, Pit has 3" is more like "MK has 5 great options" and "Pit has 3 options with holes in them that are kinda ok but really REALLY wish they were more like what MK had". If you wanna argue about Pit being a good planker, go show me some hitbox or frame data info that suggests this. Until then, there is ample evidence out there that supports what I am saying about him.

"It obvious that with out him as a player I'd be trash right?"

 

[6Mizu]

HAHAHAHAHASODJAIDJIAJDOAJDOADJDOAJDAO

U sir are funny.




Nope incorrect. Do you know the frame data for this?



YEEEEEEP you haven't read or don't know the frame data do you.

Pit's Uair is so slow, that people can edge hog before it starts. Meaning if you are onstage, and try to run off and grab the edge at the same time he starts Uair, you get to grab the edge safely.

Then, Pit loses invincibility completely before his Uair even ends. This is assuming Pit falls with it IMMEDIATELY, not him dropping down, spacing a DJ Uair which takes longer and gives him little remaining invincibility. This means that most of the time, whenever you see Pit drop down DJ Uair, you CAN beat it out with an attack as he is doing the move.

Next, you have the fact that he can't grab the edge again with complete invincibility, or with a small window of vulnerability like MK. He doesn't have that luxury.

You also have the fact that you can SDI out of his Uair and punish. But that might be too complicated for you to ponder and realize, so I'm not gonna get into that really.

My point is that yes, if you actually do your homework, you find out that other characters can't do it to the extent that MK can. Meaning all of this BS about "Oh ok MK has 5 great options, Pit has 3" is more like "MK has 5 great options" and "Pit has 3 options with holes in them that are kinda ok but really REALLY wish they were more like what MK had". If you wanna argue about Pit being a good planker, go show me some hitbox or frame data info that suggests this. Until then, there is ample evidence out there that supports what I am saying about him.

:o

10Chars

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

yeah idc how close it was. redhal lost when he was using a character 3-27x better than snake. he's trash.

"Banned(6 points)

'Bout time his blatant and unoriginal trolling was dealt w/...

 

[Laem]

I found his Jokes rather Potty

 

[Kole]

I found his Jokes rather Potty

lol'd

10chars

 

[Tommy_G]

HAHAHAHAHASODJAIDJIAJDOAJDOADJDOAJDAO
Are you ok? Must be all of the frame data testing.

U sir are funny.
Thanks. I like to be funny while talking in the Official Metaknight Discussion thread. It's all I got since the mods closed my Official Falco Discussion thread. I thought it'd be ok to have that one since there already is this character specific thread in the tactical board.



Nope incorrect. Do you know the frame data for this?
Frame data doesn't matter.



YEEEEEEP you haven't read or don't know the frame data do you.
I have read it but it doesn't matter.


Pit's Uair is so slow, that people can edge hog before it starts. Meaning if you are onstage, and try to run off and grab the edge at the same time he starts Uair, you get to grab the edge safely.
DJ Fair pushes you away from the ledge, so you can't grab it while he uairs

Next, you have the fact that he can't grab the edge again with complete invincibility, or with a small window of vulnerability like MK. He doesn't have that luxury. His up b allows him to snap to it from a good distance away.

You also have the fact that you can SDI out of his Uair and punish. But that might be too complicated for you to ponder and realize, so I'm not gonna get into that really. Uair either stage spikes you or puts you away with plenty of time for him to regrab the ledge.

My point is that yes, if you actually do your homework, you find out that other characters can't do it to the extent that MK can. Meaning all of this BS about "Oh ok MK has 5 great options, Pit has 3" is more like "MK has 5 great options" and "Pit has 3 options with holes in them that are kinda ok but really REALLY wish they were more like what MK had". If you wanna argue about Pit being a good planker, go show me some hitbox or frame data info that suggests this. Until then, there is ample evidence out there that supports what I am saying about him.
Blah blah blah you are also making assumptions about Pit's planking being not as good as it really is.
I can play the assumption game too. Planking has been proven to be detrimental to the game and has been banned. You're the one who needs to prove it's not a problem with MK gone.

If you're going to cling to your frame data like it's what decides everything, then there's nothing I can say to you to make you realize the error of what you're saying.

tl;dr of the post I would have made. Pit can deal more damage with his ledge mixups than the damage he takes.

 

[John12346]

If Pit goes high enough to hit you with Uair, then he's also high enough to get hit by a projectile/almost any character's Fsmash/Ftilt.

Keep in mind where Pit puts his hands during Uair. His hurtbox is at the same elevation as his hitbox.

 

[BigJiggs]

Honestly.. y r we even comparing MK ability vs pit?
Ya Pit has a decent ability to, however MK OUTSHINES it by a huge degree.
people have the ability to stop pit, stopping MK howeveris much more difficult.
Insinuating pit is close to MK is a sign the gamers have been intellectually dulled
(yay 1st post on a useless thread)

 

[Tien2500]

If you're going to cling to your frame data like it's what decides everything, then there's nothing I can say to you to make you realize the error of what you're saying.

tl;dr of the post I would have made. Pit can deal more damage with his ledge mixups than the damage he takes.

Frame data shows us what is and is not possible. Without it you don't have a foot to stand on (or a ledge to plank on).

 

[OverLade]

I found his Jokes rather Potty

**** I wanted to say something witty back to Toliethumor but guess he couldn't finish taking a dump before someone kicked him off the pot haha.

And I love the way when people talk about frame data, they conveniently ignore human reaction speed when it's convenient, but factor it in when it helps them.

Within reasonable human ability fighting MKs planking is impossible, even if the MK is only an average planker.

Fighting Pits planking isn't even that difficult. I know because I've played the gayest of the gay pit players and seen no problem with it. Here are some videos, show me videos of people fighting MKs planking like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDrH_24U2R0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4xU-I1T0ME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js9MlsT9ZC0

MKs **** is so much faster. It's IMPOSSIBLE to powershield MKs Uair on reaction . And if you sit by the ledge and try to time a powershield he can do other gay things like tornado you, and use tornado to push you off the edge. Pit can't do ****.

"It obvious that with out him as a player I'd be trash right?"

^^

 

[Tommy_G]

Fighting Pits planking isn't even that difficult. I know because I've played the gayest of the gay pit players and seen no problem with it.
You haven't played Danny's Pit while he planks.

To statements about frame data, frame data tells us about what's definitely impossible, but it doesn't tell us of the uncertain impossible. Frame data says Pit isn't permanently invulnerable. Does frame data show they can cover the distance to get to him and punish him when he spaces people from the ledge with Fair/Uair? No. Does it show the mix up game he has if they try to just grab the ledge from him(double jump nair comes out fast enough to hit them when they drop their shield or fly under the stage)? No. Does it show that Pit can do more damage his opponent relative to the damage he takes? No.

To those of you who say "MK is 10000x better" I know this. Shut up. I never said Pit was better than MK and I'm tired of repeating it for those who can't read. What I did say was Pit's planking is as detrimental to them game as MK's is.

Planking in general is more of a threat than MK's whole character.

 

[Kewkky]

To statements about frame data, frame data tells us about what's definitely impossible, but it doesn't tell us of the uncertain impossible. Frame data says Pit isn't permanently invulnerable. Does frame data show they can cover the distance to get to him and punish him when he spaces people from the ledge with Fair/Uair? No. Does it show the mix up game he has if they try to just grab the ledge from him(double jump nair comes out fast enough to hit them when they drop their shield or fly under the stage)? No. Does it show that Pit can do more damage his opponent relative to the damage he takes? No.

To those of you who say "MK is 10000x better" I know this. Shut up. I never said Pit was better than MK and I'm tired of repeating it for those who can't read. What I did say was Pit's planking is as detrimental to them game as MK's is.

Planking in general is more of a threat than MK's whole character.

If you know how the game works, and you know how fast characters can go and their optimum grounded/aerial choices, and you know how MK's uair works and how far it can go, AND you factor in DMG's frame data... Pretty much you know that MK's planking can be unbeatable and can be done that way by an average human. It's a monotonous action, easy to practice, and you don't even have to worry about clanking or trading hits due to the nice disjoints in his attacks.

Now compare it to Pit... Aply everything I said before, but with Pit instead of MK. DO you know how far Pit's attack reach, how long they last, where Pit's hurtbox is? Did you know you can stop his planking with projectiles easier than MK's planking? Throw a grenade at a planking Pit and see what happens, then throw a grenade at a planking MK and tell me if it's the same thing... Or, you could use Kirby or ZSS and just dair at his uair. He'll hit Kirby/ZSS and cancel out their attacks, but they'll trade hits if hit in the right area, and Pit's planking will be done for. Can you say the same thing with MK instead of Pit?


Come on, t0mmy, either you want people to do unnecessary research to prove you wrong, or you're just mistaken. Is it so hard to admit to the latter? If you WANT to convince anyone, why don't you bring up some DATA proof? Crow brought some data and everyone reveres him now (well, almost everyone), DMG brought some data and now everyone's agreeing with his opinion... Where's your data?

 

[OverLade]

To statements about frame data, frame data tells us about what's definitely impossible, but it doesn't tell us of the uncertain impossible. Frame data says Pit isn't permanently invulnerable. Does frame data show they can cover the distance to get to him and punish him when he spaces people from the ledge with Fair/Uair? No. Does it show the mix up game he has if they try to just grab the ledge from him(double jump nair comes out fast enough to hit them when they drop their shield or fly under the stage)? No. Does it show that Pit can do more damage his opponent relative to the damage he takes? No.

To those of you who say "MK is 10000x better" I know this. Shut up. I never said Pit was better than MK and I'm tired of repeating it for those who can't read. What I did say was Pit's planking is as detrimental to them game as MK's is.

Planking in general is more of a threat than MK's whole character.

Danny's Pit has the same moves as Ravyns pit. Him being smarter about planking doesn't change that it's beatable framewise by human reaction. If Danny beat me while planking, it'd probably be him outplaying me, not Pit's planking being broken, also get at Hrnut/Ally vs Danny. I'm sure they wouldn't complain about it being broken, just gay.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The difference is that

A) MKs planking is (AFAIK) proven to be frame-wise realistically unpunishable, and he has the mix-ups to counter the one way you'd even be able to punish the drop double U-air. No character can beat it.

B) Pit's planking is really good, but most if not all characters can get past it, some more easily than others. Pit's planking might (and that's a stretch) be unpunishable against some characters if the Pit predicts everything perfectly, but your logic is assuming that the Pit can do everything at once. He can't. Both people have to commit to something, so there is no way his planking is actually unpunishable as compared to MK who can do a series of inputs for 8 minutes and win. The statement, "Pit can do more damage to his opponent relative to the damage he takes," can apply to any match-up the way you're saying it. Falco can do more damage to his opponent relative to the damage he takes. Neither of these are unwinnable cases, they're just both in good positioning, Pit when he planks and Falco when he's Falco against D3.

 

[Tommy_G]

It's like people quote me with a response that my quoted post answers.

"Danny's Pit has the same moves as Ravyns pit. Him being smarter about planking doesn't change that it's beatable framewise by human reaction. If Danny beat me while planking, it'd probably be him outplaying me, not Pit's planking being broken, also get at Hrnut/Ally vs Danny. I'm sure they wouldn't complain about it being broken, just gay."

So if a planking MK uses stupid planking options(Side B's on a ledge) and you beat him for it(assuming there is no LGL) as Snake, then did you outplay him or is it that he wasn't making the best choices he could?

 

[Kewkky]

It's like people quote me with a response that my quoted post answers.

It's like you're completely avoiding what I said.

If Pit's planking was just as detrimental to the game as MK's planking was, then the only person who's be able to counter Pit's planking would be Pit himself, but in actuality, loads of characters can take care of his planking so it's not a "use this character to counter this strategy or lose" situation, like MK's planking makes us do.

Understand yet?

 

[Raziek]

What I did say was Pit's planking is as detrimental to them game as MK's is.

Ok, so you admitted that MK's is better than Pit's, but they're equally detrimental?

How the hell do you come to that conclusion? It's easy to see that if Pits is worse than MK's, it's not as detrimental. Do we see ANY Pits planking to win IMPORTANT matches? No Pits are planking to win Grand Finals here...

MK's is more detrimental because it's actually PRACTICAL.

 

[Tommy_G]

It's like you're completely avoiding what I said.

If Pit's planking was just as detrimental to the game as MK's planking was, then the only person who's be able to counter Pit's planking would be Pit himself, but in actuality, loads of characters can take care of his planking so it's not a "use this character to counter this strategy or lose" situation, like MK's planking makes us do.

Understand yet?

I didn't avoid it. I replied to the majority of those who quoted me with the post they originally quoted. More like a "read it again because I don't want to have to explain it again"

The original argument is ban MK or ban planking. If MK is gone, no one can get a Pit off the ledge if he knows what he's doing.

 

[Gnes]

Tommy...just so i understand...what u've "basically" said in the last couple of pages is

Frame data does not matter

And that no chr. can stop pit planking except for mk/pit?

 

[giuocob]

If MK is gone, no one can get a Pit off the ledge if he knows what he's doing.

FINALLY he said something stupid. He's been hovering in the gray area for a while, so finally we got something concrete to go off of.

Pit's planking is very beatable, it's been gone over in this thread already.

 

[NJzFinest]

Hey let's not talk about Pit.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, let's talk about dk!

 

[Kitamerby]

DK's planking is better than MK's. Just watch Ripple.

 

[OverLade]

It's like people quote me with a response that my quoted post answers.

"Danny's Pit has the same moves as Ravyns pit. Him being smarter about planking doesn't change that it's beatable framewise by human reaction. If Danny beat me while planking, it'd probably be him outplaying me, not Pit's planking being broken, also get at Hrnut/Ally vs Danny. I'm sure they wouldn't complain about it being broken, just gay."

So if a planking MK uses stupid planking options(Side B's on a ledge) and you beat him for it(assuming there is no LGL) as Snake, then did you outplay him or is it that he wasn't making the best choices he could?

The difference is that you have to factor in feasable human reaction just like I said. Planking effectively with Pit takes a TON more skill than planking perfectly (and relatively unbeatably) with MK. All MK has to do is buffer Uairs/fall and regard the ledge. Pit has to actively read and react to his opponent on the ledge.

Planking well as Pit takes skill whereas you'll be successful planking with MK unless you really really suck.

EDit:
And even perfect planking as Pit is still beatable within feasable reaction anyway...

 

[giuocob]

Hey let's not talk about Pit.

Oh yeah, you're right, we need to stay on topic and talk about Meta Knight!

Let's get some discussion going on how MK's moveset outdoes every other...wait, no we did that already...

Well we could get some data together on how MK's scrooging and planking ruins the...no, done to death...

Well if we could get some good ideas together on how MK's matchups influence-No, no, that's been done at least every 20 pages since this thread's start...

I know, let's speculate on the possible implications a MK ban could have on the...oh, who am I kidding...

So...shall we just troll each other, then?

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

what ^this guy said^ but yeah pits not bad just gay, once pit gets on the level you can own him pretty bad and if he's ledging there are ways to get pit off, on top of that pit can't be completely safe when he comes on the stage to kill due to his laggy kill moves and bad range, when he does decide to fight snake can own him...in the meantime just play DDR as you dodge arrows lol....

mk is the true problem though the ledge thing isnt that bad with pit but its ******** with mk, trying catching mk on delphino as snake, then try catching pit...its much much easier lol