Official Metaknight Discussion

[swordgard]

Does this change the fact that some of them are trying to obstruct an otherwise justifiably sound proposition? All I'm saying is that frustration from pro-ban is inevitable considering SOME of the thick-headed resistance on the other side.

Or the other way around. You can't just assume anti-ban has all the stupid people and proban has none. I can't name anyone(unless you go on skype XD), but proban too has stupid people.

Moreover, not that many people are from AN in the BBR, especially since the recent purges. Also, not all of AN is anti ban, pierce himself is proban(iirc hes AN).

 

[Jack Kieser]

lololol, I just realized that your sig says "Compromise and self-censorship are never an option." How are you telling me that I'm supposed to use logic to convince people of something? Especially people who haven't already been convinced by Crow!-**** posts?

A temp-ban is a compromise, and you explicitly say that compromise isn't an option.

 

[Raziek]

Or the other way around. You can't just assume anti-ban has all the stupid people and proban has none. I can't name anyone(unless you go on skype XD), but proban too has stupid people.

Moreover, not that many people are from AN in the BBR, especially since the recent purges. Also, not all of AN is anti ban, pierce himself is proban(iirc hes AN).

I didn't say we don't have our share of idiots, but when you consider that the idiots on our side can't actually change anything, yet the idiots on Anti-ban can at least ATTEMPT to ****-block progress, something is out of balance here.

 

[Turbo Ether]

haha yea every marth enjoys the matchup every snake hates it what does this tell everyone XD

I like the matchup as Snake.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just curious. What is the Back Room's current stand on Meta Knight? Is this thread the only place where a temp or official ban on Meta Knight is even being discussed, or is the Back Room actively discussing other alternatives?

I understand that Back Room discussion is supposed to be hidden from outsiders, but it is a little frustrating for the rest of the community to be in the dark in terms of what is actually going on, or if ANYTHING is even going on at all.

 

[Ripple]

BBR members don't post in any thread worth mentioning that involves MK unless their name is DMG, swordard, or adumbrodeous

 

[Raziek]

BBR members don't post in any thread worth mentioning that involves MK unless their name is DMG, crow! or adumbrodeous

*Stares at this post*

*Stares at Swordgard's username*

*laughs*

 

[Ripple]

*Stares at this post*

*Stares at Swordgard's username*

*laughs*

lol I forgot swordguard. I was going to edit in more names actually if any came up.

 

[-Ran]

I did a word count of the first five pages, and then the first ten pages. I averaged the words, and then figured out how many words were more or less used in this thread. The total came out to 1738642.4 words, and at an average typing speed of 33 wpm, that brings us to 52686 minutes, or 878 hours, or 36 days worth of writing spent on this discussion.

Lol.

 

[swordgard]

I didn't say we don't have our share of idiots, but when you consider that the idiots on our side can't actually change anything, yet the idiots on Anti-ban can at least ATTEMPT to ****-block progress, something is out of balance here.

So can idiots on the proban side. They can actually try to change things too. There were idiots on proban in the BBR, just like antiban.

You are seeing this as black-white too much imo.

 

[Raziek]

So can idiots on the proban side. They can actually try to change things too. There were idiots on proban in the BBR, just like antiban.

You are seeing this as black-white too much imo.

I suppose you could say that, but I would argue that anti-ban's idiots have more influence simply due to being the status quo.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

So can idiots on the proban side. They can actually try to change things too. There were idiots on proban in the BBR, just like antiban.

You are seeing this as black-white too much imo.

I don't see how the proban idiots have as much influence as the anti-ban ones. All you've said is "they can try to change things too" but for one anti-ban isn't trying to change anything.


The biggest thing i can see them doing is going MK them selfs for ever and OS seems to have been the only one to do that.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Two main problems @ Jack and Kieser

1) You're automatically assuming your idea of a temp-ban is right and everybody who opposes it is ignorant, dumb, horrible, etc etc etc. People have legitimate concerns about a temp-ban; I have adumbrodeus's concerns on the issue and I think that anyone who opposes it can still have valid, logical reasons.

2) WHO ARE THESE SPECIFIC TOS FROM AN THAT ARE GOING TO KEEP MK ALLOWED? All someone said is a blanket statement that AN TOs might not all follow through with the ban, and now you're going berserk and raging and saying, "shut AN out!" or whatever. There might not even be a legitimate problem? Have you talked to these TOs and explained, hey, if this problem were to arise would you be willing to follow through with a temp ban for these reasons? Or did you just assume because there's a lot of top level MKs that they aren't going to comply?

Which do you think is more convincing? Reasoning with the people why they should comply (and not just on this thread either as there's only like 10 people that follow this consistently, I mean PMing or in-person talking with these people). Or, "guys let's shut them out they can't be on ankoku's list which has like no weight at all and let's shun them if they come to our tourneys and ruin their attendance by planning tourneys on the same days as theirs and not advertising them because they disagree with our OPINION LOL this isn't tyranny at all!!1!21"

 

[adumbrodeus]

*sigh*


Why are we just blaming AN here? At this point we're just pointing fingers when the reality is that there's a lot of factors involved in why a temp ban hasn't happened, and I referenced to the most relevant factors.

As far as biases, right now I think that everyone that's not midwest is generally even in anti-banness, furthermore the BBR itself has a very different composition of pro and anti-ban then it's regional composition would suggest.



I doubt Omni's list is just AN.


Furthermore, the reason why he did it wasn't so much obstructionism, a lot of people just want a resolution to this, and his attempt to get all the TOs together was more to force a close to the debate then anything else (hence why I tried to work with him for my criteria development, but there wasn't enough support from the people who had already signed on).



You guys are looking for a scapegoat for why we don't have a temp ban (the compromise solution). Well I already explained it, too many unanswered questions, this causes division and prevents even supporters from uniting behind it. Having the support to do SOMETHING isn't sufficient, what is needed is UNITY.

I'm not naming any names, but a major part of the issue here is hardcore pro-ban.

I'm just curious. What is the Back Room's current stand on Meta Knight? Is this thread the only place where a temp or official ban on Meta Knight is even being discussed, or is the Back Room actively discussing other alternatives?

I understand that Back Room discussion is supposed to be hidden from outsiders, but it is a little frustrating for the rest of the community to be in the dark in terms of what is actually going on, or if ANYTHING is even going on at all.

Can't say, we have an anti-leak policy.


What I can say is it's just as controversial a topic in the BBR as here.

I don't see how the proban idiots have as much influence as the anti-ban ones. All you've said is "they can try to change things too" but for one anti-ban isn't trying to change anything.


The biggest thing i can see them doing is going MK them selfs for ever and OS seems to have been the only one to do that.

I can definitely name a few.

Regardless, idiot is too strong a word for the real problem, people refusing to compromise are the real issue.

 

[swordgard]

I don't see how the proban idiots have as much influence as the anti-ban ones. All you've said is "they can try to change things too" but for one anti-ban isn't trying to change anything.


The biggest thing i can see them doing is going MK them selfs for ever and OS seems to have been the only one to do that.

They can vote just like anti ban. They can make their own MK banned region. In the BBR, they have as much power as other BBR members.

 

[etecoon]

omni's group for reference

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?do=viewmembers&groupid=1890

 

[GameClucks]

While I have said in the past that I would go with what the BBR decide all in all, I can tell you that since we allowed this debate to drag on past the MLG Decision time point (we were right in vote time as MLG was looking for some direction from us and we couldnt get the vote done in time...massive failure), I can tell you that I will NOT go with a Temp Ban or any Ban during the MLG Season, unless for some reason MLG decides to change its rule set mid-season and ban MK.

So honestly for anyone that even at all cares about the game and about the competitive nature of it to still talk about any sort of ban while the largest gaming organization in the US is in direct opposition to you, even if you are right and that organization is wrong, is just plain dumb.
MLG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Us

MLG is a huge giant door for new players and recognition for the game and scene.
To decide to do something in opposition to them right now, something major anyway like banning MK, slams that door shut on new players to the community.
To anyone entering the community or looking at it because of MLG will see a move like banning MK as bad all in all, because MLG is Brawl to them.
It does not matter if its the right thing to do (which its not btw), it will not be taken that way.

So we can decide on a course of action, but nothing can actually be done until the 2010 MLG Season is done.
Even then, we need a feeler as to what MLG is thinking for 2011 Season, because MLG's rules are more visible then ours, and people like me who run MLG like events, will go MLG'ish before BBR'ish.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, at least I can take comfort in the few of you BBR members who are reading our thoughts on this issue. If it's a controversial topic in the BBR, then at least it's still under discussion. My fear has just been that it's a dead topic that they are done debating.

It's good to have those fears eradicated.

 

[Espy Rose]

You know what?

Let's blame Meta Knight for the entire mess.
I'm sure everyone would agree to that.

 

[Raziek]

Oh he's most certainly to blame for the mess. There's absolutely no way to avoid 790 pages of pissed people. Not to mention the 4 community polls and people going bat**** nuts on either side.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So honestly for anyone that even at all cares about the game and about the competitive nature of it to still talk about any sort of ban while the largest gaming organization in the US is in direct opposition to you, even if you are right and that organization is wrong, is just plain dumb.
MLG >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Us

One thing I have a major issue with here.


Why shouldn't we talk about it, there's no reason to not have community discussions occur and have people weigh in.


Making a change of policy is a bad idea atm, but a gag rule? No way.




But MLG is not the most important thing in the universe, our community is ultimately our first responsibility, and since right now (and some people might disagree with me on this) supporting MLG supports our community, I have no plans of going directly against them.


Doesn't mean we have to pretend that we gotta agree with them on everything.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate Meta Knight in Brawl, but otherwise I think he's a pretty cool character. I loved him in Kirby Superstar.

 

[Jack Kieser]

About to leave work, so I don't have time for a massive multiquote. I will say this, though: with the exception of those who have outright said they would flat-out boycott a temp ban, few people are against the actual concept of a temp ban, or at least few people say they are.

Rather, they are against proposed components of a temp ban. AP, adum has proposed a temp ban himself! He's not against it; he's against a bad implementation, and that's totally different.

Fact of the matter is, in order for a temp ban experiment to give us reliable data, regardless of the ban criterion for afterwards, we have to take our current metagame, only remove MK, and then collect data for 6 months and compare. If other factors change, like a ton of good players leaving (or a ton of good players coming back!), the results are swayed. So, if an entire region decides to leave (AN), or if Omni gets a whole mess of people to revolt, the entire project is undermined from the get go.

Simple as that.

Also, I've already said it: I have no respect for people against experimentation. Everyone (including Anti-ban!) agrees that we can't ban without more data, and a temp ban would give us that data... but there are significant numbers of people against the acquisition of that data. I do not respect them, personally. I don't care if they are pro or anti-ban: if you are an obstructionist without a metric ****-ton of data on your side, you'll get no sympathy from me.

 

[-Ran]

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2028

Bam, Temp Ban Group made. Join it, if you want it.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I can definitely name a few.

Regardless, idiot is too strong a word for the real problem, people refusing to compromise are the real issue.

anything else than what swordgard just said?

They can vote just like anti ban. They can make their own MK banned region. In the BBR, they have as much power as other BBR members.

really voting? i thought we where talking about the extremist who go beyond that like refusing to host the mk banned tournies.

MK banned regions don't work, It hurts that region and alienates it from rankings and other projects like that. For example fatal is sponsored because he is on the top 10 in the world rankings. If for some reason his region decided to become MK banned he would lose his sponsorship or be forced to attend tournaments out side of his region over local ones.

As for the BBR members if they want to change anything they need to outnumber anti-ban by 2:1. If there's only 45 members in the SBR and 16 of them are the anti-ban extremist then nothing will change.

edit: wow i'm an idiot i meant to say fatal is sponsored.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2028

Bam, Temp Ban Group made. Join it, if you want it.

Joined.

That super cute Meta Knight picture made me feel bad for about 5 seconds...I'm over it now.

 

[Raziek]

Joined.

That super cute Meta Knight picture made me feel bad for about 5 seconds...I'm over it now.

Ditto.

10dittos

 

[etecoon]

That super cute Meta Knight picture made me feel bad for about 5 seconds...I'm over it now.

won't someone PLEASE think of the meta knights?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Joined.

*back to lurking*

 

[bassem6]

I accept. BASSEM WHERE YOU AT?!?

Whats up? So this quite a delayed response, sorry I havent name searched in a while. But yeah do it man. I would like to see you try to beat ally's falcon with your wario or vice versa, should be entertaining!

As for my sets vs dojo at No Koast, here is the set where I beat him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWZJqhb6P_c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZstHQqo5zes&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=500Y_48MgBU&feature=related

And here is the set where he beat me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vnctash9hk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi2sX1CgVNs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYMXneq-Zs&feature=related (the match I win)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypjFtrCfrFw&feature=related

In the first match of the losers final set, I was kinda nervous and stupidly mashed the jump button in the beginning which resulted in dojo dairing me for the gimp. No johns, but I did noticeably mess up there and I think the set would have been closer had I not.

I personally think the wario-mk matchup is either 55:45 mk or as DMG said 60:40 mk.

 

[fkacyan]

@Xyro: When have you used that extremely childish method to force AN's opinion on anything?

Enlighten me.

 

[AvaricePanda]

About to leave work, so I don't have time for a massive multiquote. I will say this, though: with the exception of those who have outright said they would flat-out boycott a temp ban, few people are against the actual concept of a temp ban, or at least few people say they are.

Rather, they are against proposed components of a temp ban. AP, adum has proposed a temp ban himself! He's not against it; he's against a bad implementation, and that's totally different.

Fact of the matter is, in order for a temp ban experiment to give us reliable data, regardless of the ban criterion for afterwards, we have to take our current metagame, only remove MK, and then collect data for 6 months and compare. If other factors change, like a ton of good players leaving (or a ton of good players coming back!), the results are swayed. So, if an entire region decides to leave (AN), or if Omni gets a whole mess of people to revolt, the entire project is undermined from the get go.

Simple as that.

Also, I've already said it: I have no respect for people against experimentation. Everyone (including Anti-ban!) agrees that we can't ban without more data, and a temp ban would give us that data... but there are significant numbers of people against the acquisition of that data. I do not respect them, personally. I don't care if they are pro or anti-ban: if you are an obstructionist without a metric ****-ton of data on your side, you'll get no sympathy from me.

You misunderstood me. I said I shared adum's concerns about the issue, not that I am or I think adum is against the temp-ban, but we both have (and I'm pretty sure quite a few people do) have legitimate concerns about the issue, and some people are against temp-banning because of that.

You're still assuming that a temp-ban is the 100% right action to take, or that opposing it automatically means you're stubborn and should be neglected from the community or whatever. You still haven't outlined the criteria and addressed to the specific people why they should go with a temp-ban if we decide to do it.

Not very many people in the community at all even follow this discussion. A lot of people might think that the temp-ban would be during MLG, or they don't know how long the temp-ban is, or don't know what it's trying to accomplish — they could have a ton of questions and when people just say, "hay guys let's do a temp ban to collect results," of course a ton of people will oppose it. And by saying, "we'll shun you from the community if you don't agree!" when people don't even know what you're talking about in the first place, of course people would oppose it more. You would get nothing accomplished other than causing further splits in the Brawl community and making the entire situation worse.

All of that is a lot less convincing than say, a multiple page proposal written, detailing the exact rules behind a possible temp ban, the time frame, what we're looking to collect, what will happen when it ends, what will be established beforehand that we need to see to determine a final decision on MK's ban, etc.

And


When has anybody said the entire region of AN is going to stop attending MK-banned tournaments?

You're grossly over-exaggerating. People realize that a large number of top-level players not being a part of the results won't complete the results, but we don't know the number of people that might do that at this time with complete knowledge of the situation.

1) Hardly anyone knows of the supposed criteria, if I walked into some random NJ/NY tourney and said, "Hey guys, did you see pure_awesome's temp-ban template?" maybe two people will no what I'm talking about. Most people already have an opinion on a temp-ban because the idea was tossed around since late 08 since the first MK ban-poll, and because it hasn't been elaborated for a long time they probably don't think there's much more to it now.

2) You're assuming that an entire region won't comply with the temp-ban if one was instituted, and you're threatening to alienate them if they don't comply. Do you honestly think this would help at all?

 

[swordgard]

As far as I know, adumbrodeus is pro-temp-ban.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

SBR voted for the last time tho.

 

[swordgard]

SBR voted for the last time tho.

I cannot infirm or confirm this statement! Bring me things I can discuss about.

 

[Jack Kieser]

AP, we have 3 possible courses of action.

1 ) Do nothing. We've done this for 2 years, and, thanks to Crow! and OS's work, we have a goldmine of statistical data that shows us that this is not working. The rate of decline may be acceptable to some, and the reasons for it may be shrouded, but that's not being debated. If current projections hold true, and there has yet to have been any statistical evidence to show that this wouldn't be the case, then we have a rough road ahead. Even if you don't agree with that, at bare minimum, the arguing will never stop.

2 ) Ban MK. We can't do this, either. There's not enough statistical evidence to be 100% certain that MK is the direct cause of the declining figures that Crow! and OS have shown us. We have a reasonable suspicion, but still not enough to reliably convince enough people that this is the correct course.

The first two options both deal with a lack of data, so option three is:

3 ) Gather more statistics to try to narrow down the causes for our recent problems to MK. This can be done through polling (too easy to influence), more stats (too inexact, because we're just shuffling around numbers we already have), or experimentation (to gather data we don't have). This can be done locally (people ***** that it doesn't represent them), regionally (which region is the most important?), or nationally (greatest sample size means greatest accuracy). What do we experiment on?

What do our numbers look like without MK?

Again, the specifics can be argued at this point. If you think we still need to argue the specifics, that's gravy. I agree; we need to nail down the numbers, which means (I think) we need to get OS, Crow!, and adumbrodeus to sit down in a chat room, or on Skype, or whatever and decide what needs to be measured first and foremost.

If you don't even think we should debate the specifics because you don't think a temp ban is the right course of action, either propose something else or get out of the way, because from where we're standing, 2 years later, there hasn't been anything else proposed. At all.

792 pages, and the best option we have right now is a temp ban.

We have plenty of people saying "temp bans aren't the right thing to do", but then, they don't tell us what a better alternative is, and doing nothing isn't cutting it. Doing nothing will just ensure that the fighting continues.

Do I need to break this down any further? Does anyone not get this? Is a temp ban the 100% most correct course of action? There's absolutely no way to know that. Is it the best thing we have on the table right now? No one has argued to the contrary. You're saying that there might be something better. Well then, think of it and get back to us, because no one else has.

Anti-ban has forced us to "just wait a little longer" ever since the first vote. It hasn't worked. It's time to do something different. Pro-ban put forth an idea, so it's time to listen to them.

TL;DR: Crow!, OS, and adum to start hammering out the specifics away from all of us, because they're probably the most knowledgeable people we have in here. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I cannot infirm or confirm this statement! Bring me things I can discuss about.

Well, what can you discuss?

Will the SBR consider moving ahead with the Six Month Ban Bill put forth by Ran Iji without GOP support but with general public support?

 

[Kewkky]

Those MK pics make me feel uncool. I, Kewkky, who keeps using MK-without-his-mask pics for his avatar, deny that those are good pics! TO SHAME! I'd infract you all, but I'm not the mod of these forums. Lucky people...


If you guys want a temp ban, what would you look for in it? Data? What KIND of data? I mean, I get it if you just want some time without MK on the competitive scene (which is what I'm getting to be the gist of it from how you all treat the debate), but so far you're all once again waiting for the data to be spread out in front of your eyes before making sure you KNOW what you want to find. if you guys don't agree on what you want from the data BEFORE we start experimentation, how will you promise me AND the whole community that you will not bias the data to better represent your side? Didn't that happen with Crow!'s post? Some people say "OH GOD MK is dominating too much!" while others say "nah, that's just OK domination". Then people got the Tournament Results threads' data, threw it in here and went "OH MY look at how much more MK is dominating compared to the other top tiers!" while others said "oh that's normal for any fighting game, they always have a retardedly good character like Sagat or Akuma or Fox"...

So, before we get a temp ban, you MUST agree with each opposing side what will be the threshold of "over-centralization", or "over-domination". I never stepped down from this debate, I merely took a long break from it due to there being nothing happening... And there's still nothing happening and people are going in circles thinking that headway is being done, without realizing that it's just all an illusion of how big the thread has gotten, and how much bigger it's getting with reiteration of past topics and the like... So, here's your next assignment people! If you really want a temp-ban, start covering some uncovered ground. And make sure you all agree on what will you guys look for in the data, ALL of you! Having some people go "oh its not that bad" and others go "OH MAN look at THAT domination!" gets us nowhere and are indiv idual opinions... SO find a way to find some common ground in which you can all agree that 'past this point MK is a problem', then start comparing results and whatnot.


I don't know what you guys want to look for with a temp ban's tourney results... But what I WOULD look for is what characters place the most, and compare the % of characters in the top 8 with the MK-banned results of characters who place in the top 8. I would try and look for a larger number of different characters placing, as well as more positive feedback on the game from players and spectators. I'd read the comments on the MK-Banned tourneys during this time period, hear the word-of-mouth on what people say about their attended MK-Banned tourneys, and if they feel the game has changed for better or for worse after the data's gathered and observed.


Remember, we can't jump from "hypothesis" to "experimentation" when doing research! If you want to apply the temp-ban, you HAVE to know what you're gonna look for before experimenting!

 

[Blacknight99923]

My personal opinion as to what we should look for in MK fee enviroments are

1. do top players still place how they did before ban
2. are top players still there
3. how does the character rankings and points change
4. watch top players throughout the 6 months to see if they had problem picking up a new character (ie:do they place better at the end of period)
5. What stages are people strkiking and banning and what are they counterpicking on
6. are more characters "viable"
7. are points more even out
8. are multiple characters dominant like in melee metagame?
9. Do tournaments have bigger turnout
10. Is turnout increase (if any) related to MLG exposure

 

[Jack Kieser]

You want to know my personal criterion? The numbers in Crow!'s charts are different. Really.

Alright, I'll be more specific. You see how in all of the charts in here, MK's lines are always WAAAAAY ahead of everyone else's, but all of the other lines look pretty much ok?

Those proportions need to stay about the same. I know some will do better because MK used to **** them and some will do better because they now have new people to ****, but generally, if Snake + A-tier stay roughly within the same proportions and MK's stats and scores are divided up between them, Mission Accomplished.

Ban him and pull the troops out.

If Snake is put out of S-tier, hell yeah, ban now.

If 1-3 B-tier characters become more viable (go to A-tier), what are we waiting for??

If even one C-tier or below becomes viable, anyone who was ever anti-ban has to enter a whole months worth of tournaments without getting cash prizes. And MK gets banned.

We can also look at the player placings. If the players who are at the top stay in the same places, then MK wouldn't have helped them too much. If the MK players drop, then MK really was affecting their placements. And if they all go up, WTF. But that's less exact.

Again, I'll leave the to-the-nth-degree accurate numbers to the people who know the stats the best (OS and Crow!).