Official Metaknight Discussion

[Raziek]

statistics can only tell you how much MK is dominating, not whether or not he's a problem. where you draw the line is ENTIRELY opinion. crow and OS have done a great job of compiling stats and making compelling arguments to go with them, but it's still only their opinion that MK should be banned

And it's still only your opinion that he shouldn't be..... which is backed up by what, exactly? Oh right, your opinion.

 

[etecoon]

And it's still only your opinion that he shouldn't be..... which is backed up by what, exactly? Oh right, your opinion.

I never claimed that my opinion was anything other than that, this was my entire point, most of pro ban considers their opinion fact.

 

[Ripple]

but it's still only their opinion that MK should be banned

theirs and nearly 2/3 of the back room's opinion. IIRC it was only off by 1 or 2 votes the last time they voted.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I'm going to have to ask you to elaborate if you intend to claim such things. All of those stages are fine.

There's NOTHING wrong with Japes, RC, Pictochat or Aero Dive, and the only problems with Brinstar and Norfair is that they are overly abused by MK. (and his planking, in Norfair's case)

Don't make blanket statements if you aren't willing to back them up.

wat

WARNING: LARGE OFFTOPIC POST

Saying they should be legal is a much different thing than saying there's nothing wrong with them.

Japes: The stage layout really favors characters like Falco and (I believe) Peach in a lot of match-ups, and the water really favors Falco (CG into Spike) and Kirby (I believe). Maybe I'd be willing to bet if it wasn't for Falco this stage would be more legal, but I don't know. There are quite a bit of problems with it though (claptrap, water, approaching campers [mainly Falco], etc.).

RC: The moving itself isn't necessarily a problem because it's so predictable, but the shifting blastzones and more aerial-favored layout makes it dumb for some match-ups, gives MK a huge boost and others a good one as well (I believe Dedede does really well on it in most match-ups).

Pictochat: In my opinion, this should be a CP (along with RC), but again, it's not like there's nothing wrong with it. While you can react to the stage transformations before they come active, there's only a small pocket where you're 100% safe. The main part and most of the transformations are dominated by ground controlling characters like Falco, Diddy, and I believe Dedede, and while most of the transformations aren't bad in terms of interference, some are (the moving cart and the missiles, for example).

Aero Dive: The cars (and walls and floor, I think) punish too hard in Brawl. In Melee, getting hit by a car at like 70% didn't kill you or do 40% damage (probably over-exaggerations, but whatever). In my opinion, you shouldn't be punished that hard for messing up. The fact that there aren't ledges anywhere would make it a good CP if it wasn't for the cars, walls, and floors, but with all of those combined, I don't think it should be legal.

Brinstar: I thought Wario abused it just as well with his air-camping. I read somewhere that because of his aerial DI, if you get hit by lava, he can footstool you and keep a lava->footstool combo going until the lava drops.

Norfair: I thought the real reason that Atlantic North banned the stage originally was because Spammerer abused it as Jigglypuff. I heard the story from Thio, but apparently the priority of her Pound attack, combined with the positioning of the ledges, means that you really can't hit her when she gets the lead. Other characters that do really well on this stage (that aren't MK) are G&W and surprisingly Diddy. Not that MK isn't good on the stage, but from what I see and hear (mainly hear because Norfair's been banned everywhere), he's overrated, or at least rated as being the only really good character on the stage.

My ideal stage list (NOT RELATED LOL) would probably go

Starters:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Pictochat
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise

LOOK GUYS BRINSTAR IS BANNED

dunno why I just posted all that

edit: I thought the last backroom vote was almost 2/3rds anti-ban, not 2/3rds pro-ban.

edit2: @Jack, it's fine. You just got really upset lol.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Who teh HELL plays with aero drive? Look I love playing on pirate ship but I don't honestly see how it deserves to be legal ?


also from here on if people could please post wether they agree to a temp ban (date not yet determined) please post

I for one believe we should go with a temporary ban at a reasonable time

 

[Kaffei]

Why don't you guys just freaking ban him already if he's such a terror in the community omfg why is it taking so long
(This doesn't mean I want him banned, I'm just saying just stfu and do something. actions > words plzzzzzz)

Answer please

 

[Eddie G]

I never claimed that my opinion was anything other than that, this was my entire point, most of pro ban considers their opinion fact.

Stop blowing generalizations out of your ***.

The point he's trying to make is that Pro-ban at least has some data to go along with their claims/arguments. And lets not forget that you avoided his point about the stages entirely. What proof do you have that shows how terrible a liberal stagelist is? Or, as I've mentioned before, are you just one of those players who have been conditioned to believe they're terrible without ever really giving them a chance?

Well...whatever the case may be, at least most MW players (and the top players who are willing to adapt for the sake of competing effectively) will have an advantage when it comes to stage knowledge. Remain skeptical and ill-prepared if you wish.

 

[Ripple]

Answer please

because we have to wait until the back room agrees to it.

if not there there would be a split community and brawl would fall apart even faster than it is now.

not everyone fallows SBR rules though. somethings are changed here and there as far as stages go but when it comes to the banning of a character, we can't have a split community

 

[Kaffei]

because we have to wait until the back room agrees to it.

if not there there would be a split community and brawl would fall apart even faster than it is now.

not everyone fallows SBR rules though. somethings are changed here and there as far as stages go but when it comes to the banning of a character, we can't have a split community

Oh, okay.
*Back to doing random **** with MK*

 

[etecoon]

Answer please

when it takes 2+ years to ban something and they have to try THAT hard to get it done, it's pretty obvious that it doesn't have the kind of support that a ban would actually require.

Who teh HELL plays with aero drive?

midwest allows it or at least has in the past

 

[Kaffei]

when it takes 2+ years to ban something and they have to try THAT hard to get it done, it's pretty obvious that it doesn't have the kind of support that a ban would actually require.

I don't want brawl to die.. ;_; I love smash

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I'd rather play a Rock Paper Scissors concerning CGing than MK being Rock and Scissors and Paper and Zeus and Dynomite and any broken tool in RPS that has ever been made to be autowin against each other.

But you was trollin so the above statement has been voided as worthless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkkP-UXTN0k
You mean like this tool? LOL

 

[etecoon]

LOL I expected that vid, MGS3 too good

 

[Ripple]

when it takes 2+ years to ban something and they have to try THAT hard to get it done, it's pretty obvious that it doesn't have the kind of support that a ban would actually require.

you don't ban something immediately! you take your time and experiment. banning a character takes a long time unless its obvious that a character is 2 tier ahead of everyone.

again you bash on people who don't ban things immediately! have an open mind already

 

[etecoon]

I don't think it's an issue of people waiting to make up their minds, I think pro ban just doesn't have the support it takes to ban something. even if they managed to get it through the BBR somehow half the community will go "lolno" and it will only create a rift. this is why I am anti ban in spite of not having a strong opinion on whether or not MK is too good, I think that a pro ban decision can do nothing but badly injure or destroy this community

 

[Kaffei]

I don't think it's an issue of people waiting to make up their minds, I think pro ban just doesn't have the support it takes to ban something. even if they managed to get it through the BBR somehow half the community will go "lolno" and it will only create a rift. this is why I am anti ban in spite of not having a strong opinion on whether or not MK is too good, I think that a pro ban decision can do nothing but badly injure or destroy this community

Then can't we at least ban Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise

 

[Ripple]

I don't think it's an issue of people waiting to make up their minds, I think pro ban just doesn't have the support it takes to ban something. even if they managed to get it through the BBR somehow half the community will go "lolno" and it will only create a rift.

pro-ban has the majority of the support both in the community and the BBR. if the minority don't like it then too bad. it won't be mainstream and they'll be hurting themselves by playing a banned character

 

[Blacknight99923]

I do agree as a fence siter leaning on banning MK is certanly a risk to the community which is why I am pro temporary ban to make a accurate assesment as to which decision is best

 

[Raziek]

wat

WARNING: LARGE OFFTOPIC POST

Saying they should be legal is a much different thing than saying there's nothing wrong with them.

Japes: The stage layout really favors characters like Falco and (I believe) Peach in a lot of match-ups, and the water really favors Falco (CG into Spike) and Kirby (I believe). Maybe I'd be willing to bet if it wasn't for Falco this stage would be more legal, but I don't know. There are quite a bit of problems with it though (claptrap, water, approaching campers [mainly Falco], etc.).

Just because it favors certain aspects of play doesn't make it a bad counter-pick. In fact, that's why they're counter-picks. Japes favoring camping is no different from other stages that favor aggressive play. Also, a stage giving one or two characters is no real problem. It's when the advantage becomes auto-win that it is a problem. See: Mk on Brinstar.

RC: The moving itself isn't necessarily a problem because it's so predictable, but the shifting blastzones and more aerial-favored layout makes it dumb for some match-ups, gives MK a huge boost and others a good one as well (I believe Dedede does really well on it in most match-ups).

Again, being a strong pick for a few characters is not a problem, unless it degenerates into an auto-win. As far as I know, Dedede does well, but not auto-win, and MK doesn't even auto-win on it anyway.

Pictochat: In my opinion, this should be a CP (along with RC), but again, it's not like there's nothing wrong with it. While you can react to the stage transformations before they come active, there's only a small pocket where you're 100% safe. The main part and most of the transformations are dominated by ground controlling characters like Falco, Diddy, and I believe Dedede, and while most of the transformations aren't bad in terms of interference, some are (the moving cart and the missiles, for example).

See earlier responses regarding characters, but we otherwise agree.

Aero Dive: The cars (and walls and floor, I think) punish too hard in Brawl. In Melee, getting hit by a car at like 70% didn't kill you or do 40% damage (probably over-exaggerations, but whatever). In my opinion, you shouldn't be punished that hard for messing up. The fact that there aren't ledges anywhere would make it a good CP if it wasn't for the cars, walls, and floors, but with all of those combined, I don't think it should be legal.

The cars are actually quite easy to avoid. All transitions where they arrive, you can see them coming before they hit you. Except for the one where they come in from the right side, but on that transition, the first few don't have hitboxes, and every transition has a safe zone.

The walls and floors do 15% (I think), however, it is worth nothing that there is only one wall, which appears in the same spot predictably every time. AND, the floor may do damage, but at least it saves you. Damage > Death by gimp.

Brinstar: I thought Wario abused it just as well with his air-camping. I read somewhere that because of his aerial DI, if you get hit by lava, he can footstool you and keep a lava->footstool combo going until the lava drops.

I've seen DMG camp hard on it, but I wouldn't call it unbeatable. Not to mention, Wario only has one extremely strong CP (that I can think of off the top of my head), so you can ban it against him. MK gets to take you somewhere really lame no matter what.

Norfair: I thought the real reason that Atlantic North banned the stage originally was because Spammerer abused it as Jigglypuff. I heard the story from Thio, but apparently the priority of her Pound attack, combined with the positioning of the ledges, means that you really can't hit her when she gets the lead. Other characters that do really well on this stage (that aren't MK) are G&W and surprisingly Diddy. Not that MK isn't good on the stage, but from what I see and hear (mainly hear because Norfair's been banned everywhere), he's overrated, or at least rated as being the only really good character on the stage.

I think the main issue with MK is the planking, which it seems like you could partially lump Jiggs under here. However, I doubt Jiggs would really dominate too much, since she would eventually be forced out of position, and she's too physically frail to survive for very long with all the possible damage accumulation from the lava.

Big, time-consuming post is big and time-consuming.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm almost positive that the reason I wrote a long post going over my concerns about banning MK was explicitly because you wanted reasons other than, "I mean MK don't ban him," or "let's just wait and see what happens."

Oh right, I almost forgot that. When there's one sane person arguing against the ban, it kind of gets lost in the whole "IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE" "REPUBLICAN REPUBLICAN" scheme. :V

Feel free to ignore this in a few weeks and make a generalized, nonconstructive attack at anti-ban though.

A few weeks?

Anti-ban eats babies.

More on-topic:

Popular opinion in the region ties into a TOs decision to host MK-banned tournaments, but because the opinion is (in general) split 50-50, and with the presence of MLG + other large nationals like APEX, The Showdown, and The Airship on the way, I don't see why a TO would want to. These are all MK-allowed events up to the end of 2010, and any reasonable TO of these nationals wouldn't suddenly change to MK-banned. A TO hosting MK-banned events would be holding the people in their regions back, as they get less MK match-up experience.

We can debate on here all we want (and probably not advance the debate much), but any realistic action of a temp-ban or TOs experimenting with MK-banned events can't happen until 2011.

The issue, more or less, is that when the ban isn't universally accepted, the TOs who support it lose money. If we could find a large, tourney-going group of people who say "we won't play with MK allowed" (like the pro-ban equivalent to the hardcore MK mains/AN, you know?), then this would be so much easier.

"if they'd really boycott a Brawl-wide temp ban experiment just because they don't want to learn a second character, even though their actions directly force people to learn a character they don't want to learn"

dang...

legit statement

This is nothing new... There's one competitive character in the metagame.

Why don't you guys just freaking ban him already if he's such a terror in the community omfg why is it taking so long
(This doesn't mean I want him banned, I'm just saying just stfu and do something. actions > words plzzzzzz)

Lol
Says the MK main.
There's not much pro-ban can do. Anti-ban can tout the status quo and try convince TOs to reject the ban no matter what based on the number of MK mains that will refuse to go to their tournaments. Pro-ban can call to the number of players who will quit because they are sick of Metaknight, but in the short term, that's not a larger number. In the long term? Sure. But in the short term, which is all that matters for many of these TOs, banning MK will lose them a lot of money unless it's universal. We can't work like this.

statistics can only tell you how much MK is dominating, not whether or not he's a problem. where you draw the line is ENTIRELY opinion. crow and OS have done a great job of compiling stats and making compelling arguments to go with them, but it's still only their opinion that MK should be banned

...
Let me give you a fill in the blank.

Metaknight should not be banned because _____________ _________ _________

Fill that blank space in, will ya? I have some lovely things for you to fill in if you can't think o anything...
-he has no bad matchups
-he has no bad stages
-he breaks the counterpick stages
-he has 3 broken stalling strategies that we are forced to ban, lest the game become almost unplayable
-he is far better than the equivalent snake/diddy/falco/marth at any given level of play
-he has the best recovery in the history of smash
-he takes away over half the earnings from any given tournament
-he's not getting any worse, comparatively
-He has far more points than any other character (almost double second place IIRC)

...

Oh wait those don't fit. Gee, I wonder why...

Who teh HELL plays with aero drive? Look I love playing on pirate ship but I don't honestly see how it deserves to be legal ?

Aero Drive is a legit counterpick. It's hardly overcentralizing, and the cars are perfectly avoidable.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Off Topic: The floor can claim a stock ocassionally.
I have an OLD replay when my Marth has over 80% and when he hits the floor he gets....stuck and dies.

 

[Raziek]

Off Topic: The floor can claim a stock ocassionally.
I have an OLD replay when my Marth has over 80% and when he hits the floor he gets....stuck and dies.

This is true, though I've been unable to figure out why exactly it happens. I think it occurs when you hit the track on the sections where it raises up then drops off quickly.

 

[Blacknight99923]

as much as we can agrue over aero drive forever how does aero drive actually effect this discussion? Unless its somhow randomly worse for MK then the rest of high tier please tell me? Otherwise both of us will be going off topic

 

[Raziek]

as much as we can agrue over aero drive forever how does aero drive actually effect this discussion? Unless its somhow randomly worse for MK then the rest of high tier please tell me? Otherwise both of us will be going off topic

The point of it coming up was that I raised the objection to Etecoon's correlation between AN and their conservative stage lists, and the fact that they have a more slack opinion on MK. I disagreed with their stage list theory, because most of the stages they have removed are legitimate, or are otherwise invalidated by Meta-Knight.

I especially find it funny that they continue to do so now that the MLG stage list is liberal. Ideally, we should work to have as many stages as possible, but MK restricts that, which is demonstrated by Atlantic North.

 

[Blacknight99923]

The point of it coming up was that I raised the objection to Etecoon's correlation between AN and their conservative stage lists, and the fact that they have a more slack opinion on MK. I disagreed with their stage list theory, because most of the stages they have removed are legitimate, or are otherwise invalidated by Meta-Knight.

I especially find it funny that they continue to do so now that the MLG stage list is liberal. Ideally, we should work to have as many stages as possible, but MK restricts that, which is demonstrated by Atlantic North.

All right I got yah but anyway unless a stage hinders MK or gives him a huge advantedge(like he needs more) we should probably move away from this discussion

 

[Raziek]

All right I got yah but anyway unless a stage hinders MK or gives him a huge advantedge(like he needs more) we should probably move away from this discussion

Well, there's not really much to go back to. We've already identified the problems with the temp ban, and there's not much we can do about it now.

Besides, discussion of how MK bungles up the stage list/counter-pick system is more on topic than some of the stuff that comes up.

 

[Blacknight99923]

we could agree for a time to implement the temp ban and hope BBR and TOs agree upon it

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

we could agree for a time to implement the temp ban and hope BBR and TOs agree upon it

Is this a joke or something?

 

[MarKO X]

tried that.
then MLG happened.

edit: ninja'd

 

[Aglow]

I think, if nothing else, a temp ban period would be really **** interesting. A hope for a fresh metagame out to be enough to sway people to at least *try* something new.

 

[Calzorz]

personally i think it would be boring without mk its 1 of my favourite matchups , although recent results mk mk marth mk is kinda stupid especially when i watched DFS meta play that was so boring never watched a more boring player but do wot works for you. and yea larry beating dfs in meta dittos was lame larry thought he had dfs stuck against the wall until he randomly pulled out a downsmash

i dont care wot happens to metaknight but i like the challange from a good one

 

[Mota]

Haha a couple months on and I see Etecoon's still trollin this thread

Well Calzorz, ban MK and you'll get some good challenges from DDDs, Olimars, and Marths.

 

[Deleted member]

One of my favorite statements that I've read in this thread so far was Jack's, about how Meta Knight forces other characters upon us.

It's very true in my case. I'm a Wolf main, and while I think he's a fantastic character, I know that I'm most likely doomed against a good Meta Knight, so therefore, I've been trying to learn Pikachu. So yeah, if Meta Knight players have been forcing us to learn to play high-tier characters for as long as Brawl has been out, I'm sure they can handle learning somebody new for 6 freaking months.

And about people being open-minded, I'm agreeing with Jack that it's not a bad thing to be open-minded at all. If someone says the temp ban is stupid, THEY are being the idiots, because I'm pretty sure they haven't traveled to the future and tested it out themselves.

 

[etecoon]

BPC was kicking *** on my trolling


then he claimed that aero dive was a legit stage and ruined it

I win!

Haha a couple months on and I see Etecoon's still trollin this thread

if not for this topic I would have to find something productive to do, disgustiiing

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC was kicking *** on my trolling


then he claimed that aero dive was a legit stage and ruined it

I win!

Are you kidding me? It's a great stage.

 

[etecoon]

not kidding or trolling when I say I think aero dive is a horrible horrible stage and shouldn't be allowed competitively. one of those stages you play when you're goofing off, doesn't belong in tournament. I'll admit that with brinstar and RC I'm just butthurt because my snake does awful there and it makes me want to use MK more again <_< I'd actually like the MK matchup a lot if he didn't have the stupid stages factor lol

 

[Kitamerby]

Nobody in their right mind thinks Aero Dive should be allowed competitively.

They usually have to be as wacky as the people who thought banning Japes would be a good idea.

 

[Browny]

the who think brawl should be allowed competitively are pretty wacky imo

 

[OverLade]

Imo Snake's matchups get harder once MK gets banned.

Playing good Marths, Olimars and Dededes is a lot more frustrating (not necessarily harder) than playing good MKs.

 

[Xyro77]

If MK were to be banned, I guarantee you most AN TO's who want to keep a crowd will have MK legal. In fact, Inui himself said he would talk to most of the TO's and reassure them personally that keeping MK legal is the best choice. Even if every region in the world banned MK, AN would not follow suit.

DMG, its easy to change the AN mind on alot of issues. You alienate them in all ways. If they refuse to hold mk banned events, then you do not count thier results on the world ranking or ankokus ranking. Dont advertise thier events. Make other events on the day of THIER events to hurt thier numbers. You must punish people untill they learn.