Official Metaknight Discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

M2K aint really smart when it comes to MU lol. MK beats Diddy.

While I wish this was ADHD, Dekar, or AZ saying this... yeah, pretty much this.

 

[etecoon]

dekar has made posts like that repeatedly, saying that M2K is just bad against diddy and all.

 

[swordgard]

M2K aint really smart when it comes to MU lol. MK beats Diddy.

Especially with CPs, makes it hard for diddy.

 

[Judo777]

I love all this arguing of how there isn't objective ways of measuring characters ability. How about the fact that the character with the fastest attacks in the game, who also has the most versatile and safe recovery in the game, who also has the highest priority in the game, who also has the best aerial game, who has the best offstage game, who has the best potential at stalling in the game, also has like 7th or 8th easiest time killing people gimps aside. Oh btw i didnt even mention that if u took all of the character and rated their moves in order for instance who has the best nair (luigi, maybe gw, MK, snake, rob) or something like that that 75% of MKs moves would be in the top 5 of every list. (Tornado, dair, nair, uair, dtilt, fsmash, dsmash, shuttle loop, drill rush, ftilt, maybe even fair)

 

[DMG]

What's important is that we shuttle loop more.

 

[Black Marf]

I see you're having some trouble with this, but I think I see your problem. You believe there is some objective standard by which metaknight is the best character in the game, or that similar things can be judged. There is none. Nor would it be in any way useful to establish such guidelines as you seem to believe already exist.

I... what? You think M2K's ability to read has to do with the CHARACTER'S strength, and you're calling me confused? You think that there isn't objective material for how strong MK is, like the frame data on his planking ability, his disjoint, his trajectory, the tornado, etc?

If players are unable to make use of what is technically possible of their character, then it is NOT part of the current metagame.

Players, plural. The argument here is whether we should be looking at a single person, taking their strengths and weaknesses as indicative of that entire character's metagame. This is false because, well, see everyone else's opinion on how M2K handles the Diddy matchup. Doesn't sound like he's at the top of the metagame there, even if he's MK's best player.

And again, yomi has nothing to do with how good MK is as a character.

And uh... the most pragmatic approach is to look at a group of players and see how they handle the matchup. If we just looked at M2K, apparently we'd think that Diddy owns MK hard.

That's kind of the problem of defending a small sample size.

You're clearly confused, and I'm 100% certain you're going to respond with something even more strange. Why did I come back here? Oh right, MLG hype.

 

[Eddie G]

M2K aint really smart when it comes to MU lol. MK beats Diddy.

Yeah I agree. I was training with him yesterday and I was using Diddy. He had the stages set to random on the MLG stagelist and we ended up going to a bunch of stages that I'd realistically ban/strike in tourney (Norfair, Delfino, etc.) if I were to use Diddy against MK. I eventually got tired of facing MK's abusive strats on some of those stages and insisted to either play on a starter or to use my Peach who is at least more stage flexible than Diddy is since those stages gave him way too much air control and I haven't even started grasping a comfortable way to combat MK on the ground with him yet. It's entirely true, MK has too many stages that he is able to use to his advantage, especially in a matchup as sensitively systematic as MK vs Diddy, which he still believes to be in Diddy's favor for some reason.

But...he did teach me some useful DI tips and other little bits of MU info that I didn't know before, and I'll just re-cap on what I did wrong against him so I leave as little openings as possible since he abused any little bit of wasted movement from me. I'm grateful for it. :3

 

[Paix]

Has everyone forgot that ADHD has quit Diddy Kong and now mains Meta Knight?

He's being serious about this and even swordguard got a confirmation to find out it's true

 

[Eddie G]

Has everyone forgot that ADHD has quit Diddy Kong and now mains Meta Knight?

He's being serious about this and even swordguard got a confirmation to find out it's true

Yeah I read up on that, but I'm not entirely convinced yet. He has been known to goof around about stuff before. Not to mention he's put too much work into Diddy to just want to drop him that easily. People tend to drift back to their go-to character more often than not.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

While I wish this was ADHD, Dekar, or AZ saying this... yeah, pretty much this.

dekar has made posts like that repeatedly, saying that M2K is just bad against diddy and all.

Oh god you have no idea how often he says this. Try hearing it IRL.

 

[Paix]

What was Dekar like when M2K beat him then?

Couldn't have been that bad there could he :L

 

[Tarmogoyf]

What was Dekar like when M2K beat him then?

Couldn't have been that bad there could he :L

I wasn't there(texted updates) , but he was just kinda depressed that he lost >_>

It was a 2 stock and a JV 2 if I remember correctly.

 

[Overswarm]

slight improvement over "top MK's never lose except to ally" but you're still stretching the truth pretty far, I guess it can't be helped, no one really made consistently intelligent posts in this topic except overswarm and he's long abandoned this.

Oh ye of little faith.

I'm lollerskating at the moment though. People haven't even touched doubles.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh ye of little faith.

I'm lollerskating at the moment though. People haven't even touched doubles.

There's a lot more variety in teams simply because MK can partner with so many characters, and thus styles. Double MK isn't the most powerful team, really.

 

[etecoon]

ADHD actually made a point about doubles being even worse in terms of MK dominance than singles IIRC, ironically enough. people just care more about singles I guess, even though if you look at most nationals doubles results they're much more overtly overcentralized than singles

 

[Overswarm]

There's a lot more variety in teams simply because MK can partner with so many characters, and thus styles. Double MK isn't the most powerful team, really.

You're blind.

There was an MK on every single doubles team in the top 8 at MLG Orlando. Double MK was 5th place.

The only consistency across the board has been MK... everything else is meh. Double MK is as successful, if not more so, than any other combination. It's harder to track those kinds of things because we have random powerhouse teams like Ally/M2K and people that switch partners every tournament.

 

[Ripple]

having MK on a team HAS become mandatory to win anything

 

[DMG]

Double MK is a top 5 team. Actually all top teams involve MK in them (The only exception, assuming you are counting top 8 teams, would be Snake/Diddy. Besides that team, There's nothing else that should reasonably be able to compete with MK + Powerhouse). MK/Wario, MK/G&W, MK/Snake, etc. He's easily the most forceful character in teams, by that I mean that MK shapes the team metagame far more than any other character. Having a single MK on a team makes something like Dedede/Rob sound unviable, where as Dedede/ROB might have actual prospects against a Snake/Diddy team for example.

His dominance in teams is staggering. I'm not talking about M2K and Ally or M2K plus whoever winning teams all the time, I'm talking about the number of people under them that use MK for teams. There's not a single character even in the ballpark of MK when it comes to usage in teams. At all.

Actually I've talked to a lot of players OS, and the consensus was that while double MK is clearly strong, it's not as strong as MK/Wario, MK/G&W, and MK/Snake. Even counting Ally and M2K or M2K plus other partners aside, most top teams are MK with a different partner like Wario or Snake (and to a lesser extend G&W since he is not as played). MK is still obviously the integral part of the team, as obvious to how "meh" teams like Wario/G&W or Double Wario/Double of any other character seem, but having 2 doesn't guarantee you have chosen the strongest team period.

 

[Raziek]

So, allow me to be the one to ask the incredibly obvious question then. If he shows this kind of ridiculous dominance in teams, why isn't he banned from doubles?

 

[Juushichi]

My guess is that no one really cares that much about doubles to do anything.

 

[fkacyan]

You're blind.

There was an MK on every single doubles team in the top 8 at MLG Orlando. Double MK was 5th place.

The only consistency across the board has been MK... everything else is meh. Double MK is as successful, if not more so, than any other combination. It's harder to track those kinds of things because we have random powerhouse teams like Ally/M2K and people that switch partners every tournament.

I didn't say MK wasn't dominant, I just said there's variety because MK can partner with so many characters. I wasn't talking about team variety but character variety. MK is obviously still dominant, but it's not like you never see other characters. That's the point I was making.

Teams is an interesting beast, though. Doesn't almost every Melee team ever have a Fox on it? Does that mean Fox should be banned in Melee?

EDIT: Furthermore, because of the way teams functions, as opposed to singles where the metagame could change drastically, it's a lot easier to see who works well for teams. If we lose MK I would be willing to bet upwards of a thousand dollars that most teams would have a Snake (MK is his primary teams threat, really), because he has killing power, can live for a long time, and can support a wide range of characters and playstyles.

I don't think teams is a viable avenue for pro-ban to go down to seek additional evidence. Teams is almost always going to have a dominant character.

 

[Raziek]

I think the problem lies in the fact that the dominance is staggering, yet it is obscured by the fact that it isn't as black and white as "Everyone's playing MK". People are more content because they're satisfied by the "false variety" of the characters who accompany him in teams.

I'm willing to bet if it was double MK as the best team, people would be up in arms.

If anything Thio, you should be able to understand this better than others, if you've played World of Warcraft. (as I did as well, for a time) If memory serves, there was a point during one arena season during BC (I forget which), where if you didn't have a Paladin in 3s, you lost. So everyone had Paladins. Blizzard nerfed Paladins in response to clear over-centralization.

Since we can't nerf MK, the question is, "Should we ban him?"

 

[fkacyan]

I think the problem lies in the fact that the dominance is staggering, yet it is obscured by the fact that it isn't as black and white as "Everyone's playing MK". People are more content because they're satisfied by the "false variety" of the characters who accompany him in teams.

I'm willing to bet if it was double MK as the best team, people would be up in arms.

If anything Thio, you should be able to understand this better than others, if you've played World of Warcraft. (as I did as well, for a time) If memory serves, there was a point during one arena season during BC (I forget which), where if you didn't have a Paladin in 3s, you lost. So everyone had Paladins. Blizzard nerfed Paladins in response to clear over-centralization.

Since we can't nerf MK, the question is, "Should we ban him?"

Blizzard is known to over-nerf and then fix the nerfs that were too much later on. I see your point, though.

That said, as in Smash, WoW had those outlier comps that somehow still worked. Some team in my BG got glad with DK / War / Rogue - Yes, a healer-less 3s comp - in a bracket that right now is dominated by disc priest (Or was when I played, at least). I don't see anything wrong with a particular class being the most popular in a bracket. I can agree that MK being both the best singles AND teams character is worrying, but that's why I support a temp ban.

I also think that one character / class is always going to be dominant in a particular teams setting just due to their mechanics. Paladins will always be good in 2s because of their immunity mechanics, and druids because they can keep both people with near-100 HoT uptime.

 

[DMG]

The problem (potential or otherwise) isn't that he dominates. It's to the degree that he dominates. You are always gonna have a best character in doubles, but NO ONE will be on the same level as MK with him gone. Snake, even if he was played the most with MK gone, would be a lesser alternative to MK by far. I guarantee you there's no way Snake will take as many important double's spots as MK, nor would he be able to do it with the "variety" you talk about.

 

[Raziek]

The problem (potential or otherwise) isn't that he dominates. It's to the degree that he dominates. You are always gonna have a best character in doubles, but NO ONE will be on the same level as MK with him gone. Snake, even if he was played the most with MK gone, would be a lesser alternative to MK by far. I guarantee you there's no way Snake will take as many important double's spots as MK, nor would he be able to do it with the "variety" you talk about.

I would agree with this. Snake just doesn't possess the versatility that Mk does. Not to mention, coming back to a factor that came as a response to "Snake would dominate in Singles with MK gone" (way back when), Snake actually has bad stages and match-ups.

 

[fkacyan]

The problem (potential or otherwise) isn't that he dominates. It's to the degree that he dominates. You are always gonna have a best character in doubles, but NO ONE will be on the same level as MK with him gone. Snake, even if he was played the most with MK gone, would be a lesser alternative to MK by far. I guarantee you there's no way Snake will take as many important double's spots as MK, nor would he be able to do it with the "variety" you talk about.

I disagree heartily. If the temp ban ever happens we'll see who's right, I suppose.

@Raziek: MUs are team-based in teams so it's a lot harder to tell what team should be winning unless it always devolves into a 1v1.

 

[Overswarm]

I disagree heartily. If the temp ban ever happens we'll see who's right, I suppose.

@Raziek: MUs are team-based in teams so it's a lot harder to tell what team should be winning unless it always devolves into a 1v1.

No one can do what Meta Knight does. No one.

 

[Raziek]

@Raziek: MUs are team-based in teams so it's a lot harder to tell what team should be winning unless it always devolves into a 1v1.

While this is true, it doesn't change the fact that Snake actually has weaknesses beyond "He's light." I just don't see him being anywhere near as dominant, considering all the different possible combinations that can play on his weaknesses.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How's G&W in teams sans MK?

EDIT: also, can anyone come up with a popular game mode other than Duelist, hacks, and MK banned tournaments where MK doesn't dominate?

 

[Raziek]

How's G&W in teams sans MK?

EDIT: also, can anyone come up with a popular game mode other than Duelist, hacks, and MK banned tournaments where MK doesn't dominate?

GW wouldn't be as bad. He's a strong character in doubles, for sure, but he also has his weaknesses.

Also, Coin Battle, due to poor aerial mobility.

Or, if it was still around, Style battle, because everyone knows MK is too homo to be stylish.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Mk is the only character really stopping me from placing top 5 with Wolf. He is also required in teams to win. My whole crew (about 19 members) uses Mk, except 3 people.

Gay as ****.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

MK would **** coin battle, because he can combo really well, letting hi juggle while collecting coins (lol IDK why I even said this)

EDIT:@Raziek OBV

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We have to make a line to see if he is ban-worthy based on some from of a consensus, I don't care if 35% or so disagree if a good portion of the community wants MK banned with good evidence backing it up.

Pick a line, see if 60-70% at least of the community agrees with that line and go from there.

Optimistic idea, since our community has become so polarized to one side or the other, and MLG is making things even more complicated.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There's no point arguing anymore. I brought my best reasoning and you cling to really bad insults as if they are doing anything.

We aren't controlled by the numbers. We make them. Intuition > statistics.

...


Please tell me this is a troll post.


Numbers >>>>>>>> intuition, well unless you wanna turn back the entire scientific revolution, Renaissance, enlightenment, Greek Philosophy, etc, and return to the late Bronze age.

 

[Raziek]

...


Please tell me this is a troll post.


Numbers >>>>>>>> intuition, well unless you wanna turn back the entire scientific revolution, Renaissance, enlightenment, Greek Philosophy, etc, and return to the late Bronze age.

We covered this with him already. It's clear he's a little damaged.

 

[AllyKnight]

I believe Falcon vs MK is 50 50 if falcon isn't messing up grab release

 

[fkacyan]

No one can do what Meta Knight does. No one.

Talking in absolutes is the best way to force yourself to stick your foot up your *** if you're wrong.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Can I see Ally(Falcon) v. M2K(Metaknight) pl0x? K thx.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I believe Falcon vs MK is 50 50 if falcon isn't messing up grab release

Pretty sure it's falcon's advantage I saw some falcon 2 stock Lain on brinstar and all

 

[Blacknight99923]

I believe Falcon vs MK is 50 50 if falcon isn't messing up grab release

an issue with match ups is that a top level player who has far more understanding of how a character works can manipulate his character into ways lesser players can't. So while its true a falcon of YOUR level may go even with MK I doubt a lesser falcon can