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Official Metaknight Discussion

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MarKO X

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Sweet sweet Irony: I'm proban. New Mexico has had MK banned since November 08.

I don't think Meta banned events help one bit though. Sadly, banning MK in a small region just makes us less prepared. It's better to play him to show he is everywhere and support your cause lol.
You can't just play MK and be like, "okay look, see? this character is everywhere."

nah, if you play him, you gotta get as gay as the rules will allow. you gotta exploit rule loopholes, spam nado wisely, etc. You have to make it such that even if you don't fully succeed with MK, people would look at your MK and be like "if *insert better MK player* played like this, he'd win."
 

etecoon

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How is it not ad hominem?

Me: I'm worried mostly because of the data Flayl gathered showing how few people have beaten top MKs more than once in their carrier
You: Your argument is invalid because you don't go to tournaments.

Textbook ad hominem-attacking the debater, not the argument.
more like this is a strawman
 

adumbrodeus

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it depends on whose data you feel like regurgitating without doing any real observation of your own, but I suppose that's the best you have to go on when you don't play this game competitively and don't go to tournaments anyway
Lol, personal experience is the WORST way of obtaining data about trends because there's not enough tests to know whether isolated incidents reflect the whole and confirmation bias is a massive issue.


Improper statistical reasoning ftw!
 

etecoon

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I never said anything about data or trends, I said that budget doesn't have an argument of his own and only makes a *******ized version of OS/crow/flayl's arguments. lacking any experience of his own his entire perspective is pretty much based on what they've posted, it's hilarious.

edit: it's also hilarious that *******, ***, and **** are censored here and yet this site has no problem with how incredibly homophobic most of us are, l m f a o
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I never said anything about data or trends, I said that budget doesn't have an argument of his own and only makes a *******ized version of OS/crow/flayl's arguments. lacking any experience of his own his entire perspective is pretty much based on what they've posted, it's hilarious.

edit: it's also hilarious that *******, ***, and **** are censored here and yet this site has no problem with how incredibly homophobic most of us are, l m f a o
LoL that is pretty funny.
 
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Sweet sweet Irony: I'm proban. New Mexico has had MK banned since November 08.

I don't think Meta banned events help one bit though. Sadly, banning MK in a small region just makes us less prepared. It's better to play him to show he is everywhere and support your cause lol.
I was making a bad "ban goyf" joke. :laugh: If you were on the gleemax forums when tarmogoyf first came out, you will know what I'm talking about.

more like this is a strawman
No, it's pretty much exactly what you said.

I never said anything about data or trends, I said that budget doesn't have an argument of his own and only makes a *******ized version of OS/crow/flayl's arguments. lacking any experience of his own his entire perspective is pretty much based on what they've posted, it's hilarious.

edit: it's also hilarious that *******, ***, and **** are censored here and yet this site has no problem with how incredibly homophobic most of us are, l m f a o
Now this, on the other hand, makes sense. And you know why I'm regurgitating them? Because apparently some idiots fail to grasp the meaning of these facts. It's honestly less me repeating the arguments they're saying. Most of what Flayl and Crow posted is not arguments but rather objective statistics; THAT's what I'm saying.
 

TP

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I never said anything about data or trends, I said that budget doesn't have an argument of his own and only makes a *******ized version of OS/crow/flayl's arguments. lacking any experience of his own his entire perspective is pretty much based on what they've posted, it's hilarious.

edit: it's also hilarious that *******, ***, and **** are censored here and yet this site has no problem with how incredibly homophobic most of us are, l m f a o
If OS/crow/flayl already made an amazing argument, why would Budget not use it to convince other people to be pro ban? Those guys can't be everywhere at once, and their arguments aren't amazing if nobody knows about them. Budget is completely right in using them, instead of coming up with some half-***** argument that can be shot down easily.

EDIT: When Tarmogoyf first came out, Budget, it was only worth a buck. Nobody wanted it banned or thought much of it. Who knew it would be worth the $80 it goes for now?
 
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coming up with some half-***** argument that can be shot down easily.
AKA what usually happens when I argue on my own. :V This is part of why I say that me being one of the most engaged Pro-ban debaters in this thread is a bad thing. :laugh:

EDIT: Lolgoyf; I traded mine (and a bridge from below, for which I could not POSSIBLY imagine ANY use whatsoever) away for like nothing. Massive fail. xD
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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If OS/crow/flayl already made an amazing argument, why would Budget not use it to convince other people to be pro ban? Those guys can't be everywhere at once, and their arguments aren't amazing if nobody knows about them. Budget is completely right in using them, instead of coming up with some half-***** argument that can be shot down easily.

EDIT: When Tarmogoyf first came out, Budget, it was only worth a buck. Nobody wanted it banned or thought much of it. Who knew it would be worth the $80 it goes for now?
Goyf is so overrated just spell snare dat ***** O_O.
 

etecoon

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If OS/crow/flayl already made an amazing argument, why would Budget not use it to convince other people to be pro ban?
the problem with regurgitating someone elses argument is that you don't have the same understanding of it that they do and just end up cheapening the original message, watching budget try to be OS is sad and I highly doubt that he's convinced anyone.

and budget my main point about you not attending tournaments isn't that your argument is wrong because of that but that your presence here is POINTLESS, this issue doesn't affect you and I don't think you understand the implications of a potential MK ban. I can respect pro ban people like OS or praxis because they're actually part of the community and have experience with that, as I've said I don't think you have the perspective to be making ANY kind of judgement, same goes for any antibans that don't go to tournaments(although brinboy is the only one that comes to mind and he stopped posting long ago). granted this is why the SBR decides the matter privately and public polls have never been the deciding factor, but it still kind of irks me
 
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the problem with regurgitating someone elses argument is that you don't have the same understanding of it that they do and just end up cheapening the original message, watching budget try to be OS is sad and I highly doubt that he's convinced anyone.

and budget my main point about you not attending tournaments isn't that your argument is wrong because of that but that your presence here is POINTLESS, this issue doesn't affect you and I don't think you understand the implications of a potential MK ban. I can respect pro ban people like OS or praxis because they're actually part of the community and have experience with that, as I've said I don't think you have the perspective to be making ANY kind of judgement, same goes for any antibans that don't go to tournaments(although brinboy is the only one that comes to mind and he stopped posting long ago). granted this is why the SBR decides the matter privately and public polls have never been the deciding factor, but it still kind of irks me
You think I haven't been trying?

The nearest smashfest I have heard of is a 3-hour train ride away. It would be $40 to get there, alone, to a place where I don't know how things run, don't know anyone, and where they generally play Melee, a game I don't really play anywhere near competitively. I have never heard of an actual tournament in GERMANY, let alone regionally. Hell, I'm not aware of many in europe. At 16 with no employment, I'm currently struggling to get a wii of my own, let alone shell out to go to smashfests. So that's not it.
I have been doing everything in my power to try to get a local smash scene running; it's difficult when the only people playing the ****ing game are little 12-year-old douches with all stages, all items on high, and all johns. I'm trying. There simply is no scene here, and I'm not exactly good enough to start one.
And it's not like you absolutely need to go to tournaments to understand how the game works, understand how things are. You can assume that a character who has easily-performed actions that are impossible to ban discreetly that make the game unplayable is broken. It's not a huge stretch. It's also not a huge stretch to assume that you should ban this broken character when he's got twice the ranking points of the second place guy.
 

Luigi player

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You think I haven't been trying?

The nearest smashfest I have heard of is a 3-hour train ride away. It would be $40 to get there, alone, to a place where I don't know how things run, don't know anyone, and where they generally play Melee, a game I don't really play anywhere near competitively. I have never heard of an actual tournament in GERMANY, let alone regionally. Hell, I'm not aware of many in europe. At 16 with no employment, I'm currently struggling to get a wii of my own, let alone shell out to go to smashfests. So that's not it.
I have been doing everything in my power to try to get a local smash scene running; it's difficult when the only people playing the ****ing game are little 12-year-old douches with all stages, all items on high, and all johns. I'm trying. There simply is no scene here, and I'm not exactly good enough to start one.
And it's not like you absolutely need to go to tournaments to understand how the game works, understand how things are. You can assume that a character who has easily-performed actions that are impossible to ban discreetly that make the game unplayable is broken. It's not a huge stretch. It's also not a huge stretch to assume that you should ban this broken character when he's got twice the ranking points of the second place guy.
I'd love to have a place for sfs only 3 hours away. Every tourney (that is worth enough going to) is about 10 hours away from me. There are nearer SFs (5+ hours away) with about 4 people maybe, but it's not worth it to spend like 80 euro for that.

It's funny how you want MK banned, but you aren't even in the german smashboards and don't know how tourney play really is. I've never seen you play wifi or any player that people know here.

Those 12 year olds probably beat you with MK that's why you want him banned.:laugh:

You are like 100 % theorie. And you're one of the biggest MK pro banners around... lul
 

PottyJokes

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so basically what you're saying is you're not part of the competitive community at all but you want MK banned and potentially ruin the game for others that actually DO play the game competitively. i gotcha!
 
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so basically what you're saying is you're not part of the competitive community at all but you want MK banned and potentially ruin the game for others that actually DO play the game competitively. i gotcha!
It's news that I don't play competitively? I log like, an hour a week max on brawl (not for lack of trying, again), another like 10 or so on poorly-emulated 64...

I want MK banned so that when I end up in a more favorable position to take part in the smash scene, there still IS a smash scene. Keep on claiming that whatever I say is invalid because I don't go to tournaments.

@LP: I would love to play wifi; hence me actually trying to find a wii. None of my friends main MK; I am in fact the best in the group if I play with Snake or MK (although I credit this to the only other person in the group who is even close to decent maining Zelda).
 

Luigi player

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It's news that I don't play competitively? I log like, an hour a week max on brawl (not for lack of trying, again), another like 10 or so on poorly-emulated 64...

I want MK banned so that when I end up in a more favorable position to take part in the smash scene, there still IS a smash scene. Keep on claiming that whatever I say is invalid because I don't go to tournaments.

@LP: I would love to play wifi; hence me actually trying to find a wii. None of my friends main MK; I am in fact the best in the group if I play with Snake or MK (although I credit this to the only other person in the group who is even close to decent maining Zelda).
The smash scene in germany only has 2 top MKs, the other MKs are waaay behind them (because most players don't even play him in the first place). So it shouldn't be that terrible. And those top MKs still get beaten.
 

Orion*

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Really, what does data from Meta banned tournies give us anyways? It's nice to know if the Metagame is more/less diverse, but that in itself isn't a reason to ban MK. Characters like D3 are worse for low tiers most of the time anyways.

Meta banned events are best to show that you want him banned IMO.
i wish could afford you :(
oh well i like UB more anyway lol

I was making a bad "ban goyf" joke. :laugh: If you were on the gleemax forums when tarmogoyf first came out, you will know what I'm talking about.
he wasnt ban worthy either... just expensive -.-

You Snare it and then Jitte drops next turn. :urg:
i need another jit i only have like 2 :/
theyre sooo good lololol, but i stopped playing this game competitively so its not worth the $.
 

Orion*

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T2, goyf wasn't broken. Now bitterblossom on the other hand...
LOL. i bought fae when everyone thought they sucked on got a full set of blitters for like 15 bucks :laugh:
most of my fae deck is foiled but i sadly quit around then because i didnt have time to keep up with standard.

and BB in block was ridiculous. nobody could do anything to it DX

Obviously. :p I mean, the whole "ban jitte" phenomenon I can kinda understand-Jitte is ****ing incredible, usable in every deck, and cheap. But goyf... nah. And I play legacy-I know what the **** is and isn't broken.
yeahhhh like every deck had jitte in it minus a few control decks, and even then they where sideboarded rofl.
 

Luigi player

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Because playing against someone in Germany on wifi would show tons about his ability, amirite?
What I wanted to say is that he isn't involved in the german competitive scene at all.
If he won't travel he could at least play wifi, but he doesn't even do that (and yes, wifi is better than nothing). He has zero practise against competitive players, but says MK is broken and must be banned.

He's just on that "ban MK" bandwagon, because so many people in SWF whine about him.......
 

salaboB

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What I wanted to say is that he isn't involved in the german competitive scene at all.
If he won't travel he could at least play wifi, but he doesn't even do that (and yes, wifi is better than nothing). He has zero practise against competitive players, but says MK is broken and must be banned.

He's just on that "ban MK" bandwagon, because so many people in SWF whine about him.......
The mistake you're making is using an ad hominem to try to defeat his point -- his personal skill at Brawl is irrelevant to the actual conversation, if you can't explain why the points he's supporting are wrong (Or inconclusive) then he's won.

Maybe he's on the "ban MK" bandwagon because he was convinced logically that it is best for the future of competitive Brawl, even though he hasn't been able to actively participate in it.
 

Luigi player

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You can't talk about rules if you have no idea what you're talking about. Playing the game is different from theoriecrafting.

While it's true that planking is a problem, people wanted MK banned before DMG came up with the invincible stuff. And that's just... bs, but whatever.
In my opinion MK doesn't dominate too much to be banned. Dojo had no chance against Ally and even Bassem beat him. Okay, he got 2nd and that's really good, although Razer forfeited to let him have a chance to fight against Ally. Razer could've beat Dojo and he'd be in 5th place. And he's considered to be top 5 MK by like everyone and some people even say he's the 2nd best MK... the top 3 of the tourney would be non MKs. MK isn't dominating as everyone says. It just seems like that, because over time he obviously has more wins than other chars.
Pound 4 is it's own story. DEHF would've probably got really high if he didn't SD like he did. And then everything would've looked different. And you can't just say "ya nonMK mainers lose, because their chars have bad MUs and MK has none so something like that won't happen to them". I mean it's somewhat true, but who cares... it's not like you can't beat those other chars, that beat your char, only with MK. Okay, some non MKs might need to play 2 chars, but that's why they aren't as high on the tier list. Diddy and Snake can definitely hold their own too.
Most other good nonMK mainers didn't even come to the tourney. So OF COURSE all those good MKs will get the top spots, because most other people just aren't as good. Where was SK92? Where was Anther and other good Pikas? Where was NickRiddle? Where were Fiction, DMG, Bassem, ...? Where was Gnes? Ultimate Razer? MikeHaze?
Also, many non MKs had to play before they faced an MK so they kicked eachother out...

If people use MK, then they use him, and if they use other characters then they use other characters. Many people pick up MK, because everyone says he's so ****ing broken and easy etc etc. Of course people pick him, because he's the best character, but he isn't that much better than everyone else. If everyone was meatriding Snake or someone else maybe people would pick those characters and now the same thing happens for them. OMGZ they're too dominating we have to ban them, because everyone uses them.......

Just because the best players choose to play the best character doesn't mean he needs to be banned.
If he gets banned then they might switch to the next best one, which may or may not be Snake. And then everyone plays Snake, Dedede, Falco, ICs, Diddy, Wario, ... instead of MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, ICs, Wario, ...

Maybe people just think he's so good so they use that char.

What if some good players liked to play Marth, because he seems to be easy to use, good, but not the best, and is very popular because of his playstyle.

Now many players would play Marth, because he's cool and blabla... most of the best players will play him, but there is one really good MK that is beating them. MK is the better character, but people still play Marth, because he is much easier to use and people just like him more. Many people think he's the best character, because he has such good placings.
Results would be like:

1 MK
2 Marth
3 Marth
4 Marth
5 other
5 Marth
7 MK
7 other/whatever

You people would probably ban Marth (in this example) too, even though he can be beaten and it's just the players that are so good. Maybe Marth isn't even the best Char and people just think that which means many people will use him.... Other chars might take more skill to master, and just because he's so easy to use and everyone is too lazy doesn't mean he needs to go away.
 

Tien2500

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Ok... I think what you were trying to say in that wall of text was that MK is only so good because everyone chooses him due to the OMG hype.

So basically, you're telling me that the best characters in the game are morons that can't think for themselves? The best players are choosing MK because they are good at analyzing the game and figured out that he's the best.

As for players using other characters... Snake has disadvantaged matchups. So does Diddy. So does Marth.
 

Mew2King

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I think the MLG results are going to be extremely heavily MK-biased

Top 3 MKs on EC are going, top 4 on south are going, top 2 on midwest are, and top 3 on west coast are. The top 12 MKs will all be present at MLG Orlando. As far as I know, Anther's Pikachu will not be present, SK92 (2nd best falco) will not be present. Fow (best Ness who beat Tyrant/DSF in tourney) will not be present. I don't think (but don't know for sure) if Lain/Meep are going, but Swordgard isn't (best 3 ICs), and the best Fox TKD (who beat Havok and beat Tyrant in 4 sets yes 4 sets) will not be there, but the top 12 MKs will all be there as far as I know. It's impossible for him not to dominate MLG because of this.
 

MarKO X

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DEHF wouldn't have SD'd if he played MK. =O
 
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I think the MLG results are going to be extremely heavily MK-biased

Top 3 MKs on EC are going, top 4 on south are going, top 2 on midwest are, and top 3 on west coast are. The top 12 MKs will all be present at MLG Orlando. As far as I know, Anther's Pikachu will not be present, SK92 (2nd best falco) will not be present. Fow (best Ness who beat Tyrant/DSF in tourney) will not be present. I don't think (but don't know for sure) if Lain/Meep are going, but Swordgard isn't (best 3 ICs), and the best Fox TKD (who beat Havok and beat Tyrant in 4 sets yes 4 sets) will not be there, but the top 12 MKs will all be there as far as I know. It's impossible for him not to dominate MLG because of this.
Thanks for the pre-emptive PR.

Can't help but wonder why all of these good players that happen to play MK are showing up; players CHOOSE CHARACTERS, and no one is intrinsically an MK player.

Incidentally, the results wouldn't be MK-biased if he was banned like he should be. :)
 
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I think the MLG results are going to be extremely heavily MK-biased

Top 3 MKs on EC are going, top 4 on south are going, top 2 on midwest are, and top 3 on west coast are. The top 12 MKs will all be present at MLG Orlando. As far as I know, Anther's Pikachu will not be present, SK92 (2nd best falco) will not be present. Fow (best Ness who beat Tyrant/DSF in tourney) will not be present. I don't think (but don't know for sure) if Lain/Meep are going, but Swordgard isn't (best 3 ICs), and the best Fox TKD (who beat Havok and beat Tyrant in 4 sets yes 4 sets) will not be there, but the top 12 MKs will all be there as far as I know. It's impossible for him not to dominate MLG because of this.
Good to know, I guess? I see the top 16 as this then:
-ADHD
-M2K
-Ally
-around 10 other MKs
-the odd case from another character like 2 times

Let's say this happens. Would anti-ban be okay with these results and see them as a healthy metagame, and not that metaknight is overcentralizing?
 

Crow!

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Luigi Player obviously hasn't read my posts in this thread. I've been through this before; MK players are NOT more skilled than the players of other mains, they instead just place better in tournaments.

In fact, fewer people are playing MK than there should be based on how well comparably skilled players who play MK perform compared to other characters. There is apparently a stigma against choosing MK, rather than a "he's awesome so I'll automatically pick him" effect as suggested above.


Point is, the analysis I've done couldn't have found the conclusions I have if MK wasn't fundamentally a lot better a character than the other characters. The legitimate question is, do we care that MK is so much better than every other choice? In the interest of maintaining a good competitive game, I think we should.

But we'll see how MLG Orlando shakes out. I'll post my thoughts on that later.
 

Overswarm

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I think the MLG results are going to be extremely heavily MK-biased

Top 3 MKs on EC are going, top 4 on south are going, top 2 on midwest are, and top 3 on west coast are. The top 12 MKs will all be present at MLG Orlando. As far as I know, Anther's Pikachu will not be present, SK92 (2nd best falco) will not be present. Fow (best Ness who beat Tyrant/DSF in tourney) will not be present. I don't think (but don't know for sure) if Lain/Meep are going, but Swordgard isn't (best 3 ICs), and the best Fox TKD (who beat Havok and beat Tyrant in 4 sets yes 4 sets) will not be there, but the top 12 MKs will all be there as far as I know. It's impossible for him not to dominate MLG because of this.
If I didn't main MK I wouldn't travel either XD
 

OverLade

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I think the MLG results are going to be extremely heavily MK-biased

Top 3 MKs on EC are going, top 4 on south are going, top 2 on midwest are, and top 3 on west coast are. The top 12 MKs will all be present at MLG Orlando. As far as I know, Anther's Pikachu will not be present, SK92 (2nd best falco) will not be present. Fow (best Ness who beat Tyrant/DSF in tourney) will not be present. I don't think (but don't know for sure) if Lain/Meep are going, but Swordgard isn't (best 3 ICs), and the best Fox TKD (who beat Havok and beat Tyrant in 4 sets yes 4 sets) will not be there, but the top 12 MKs will all be there as far as I know. It's impossible for him not to dominate MLG because of this.
Just so you know I switched to anti ban or w/e so I'm not tryna harp on you but

If I didn't main MK I wouldn't travel either XD

This. With 12 MKs going who the **** is gonna try who doesn't main MK?

Edit:
Oh yeah ****ty seeding could determine a lot though, we'll see about that.
 

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yeah i wonder how they are going to do seeding @_@

i hope its done well and maybe we will see some upsets ^.^
 

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Any reasoning why?

Also, seeding is how people are paired up in pools/brackets, right?
Because no amount of arguing is going to get him banned for now. There are still top players who "can" beat top MKs, even if not consistently.

If MK needs to be banned, MLG will conveniently show us why, as no amount of logical arguing will influence the people who are actually in power/organizing tourneys.

And no pools, just a big ****ing 128 man bracket. Whats good?
 

Flayl

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Because no amount of arguing is going to get him banned for now. There are still top players who "can" beat top MKs, even if not consistently.

If MK needs to be banned, MLG will conveniently show us why, as no amount of logical arguing will influence the people who are actually in power/organizing tourneys.

And no pools, just a big ****ing 128 man bracket. Whats good?
Then your ideology hasn't switched, just your standards for proof?
 

Master Raven

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Red and etecoon get it.

No amount of pies/charts/logical arguments/whatever are going to convince half the anti-ban tourneygoers and TOs to pro-ban. Most of those people are going to base their stances on their actual tourney experience. I've been following every single MK ban discussion topic at this point and in all honesty I feel that these technical attempts to get MK banned are, for the moment, futile.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
If I didn't main MK I wouldn't travel either XD
There are plenty of other reasons not to travel. Obligations (School, work, family, etc), not having the money (inb4you'dhavethemoneyifyouwereMK), distance, etc.

The legitimate question is, do we care that MK is so much better than every other choice? In the interest of maintaining a good competitive game, I think we should.
Thank god the person who made the data actually knows that it isn't objectively conclusive! Maybe your parrots will stop thinking it is now.
 
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