Official Metaknight Discussion

[HeroMystic]

of course, you're absolutely right though, a game with characters that are different isn't going to be completely balanced. There will always be something that beats a lot of everything else.

Brawl+ and Melee did a pretty decent job if you ask me.

 

[OverLade]

I'm gonna lol when tourney rulesets get to the point where MK can only play on neutrals, gets 10 ledgegrabs, can only fly under the stage once at a time, and has a 50% handicap...

 

[HeroMystic]

It's been argued that the 50% handicap actually helps Metaknight, lol.

 

[Justblaze647]

I'm gonna lol when tourney rulesets get to the point where MK can only play on neutrals, gets 10 ledgegrabs, can only fly under the stage once at a time, and has a 50% handicap...

Stay tuned lol

 

[Tommy_G]

OS those numbers do not prove mk is that much better than Snake, Diddy, and Marth. Those numbers reflect the metaknight's placing in tournaments. Since there are a good 5x (13 mks to 2 or 3 snakes in omnis chart)the number of MKs than any other character, it's only natural that the amount of points are going to be higher. I'm actually surprised they're not even better. 5x the amount of characters for 2x the points..

yeah that definitely shows mk is broken(/sarcasm)

Stop feeding these people these lies.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Tommy G you ever get tired?

 

[MarKO X]

It's been argued that the 50% handicap actually helps Metaknight, lol.

really?
what exactly are these arguments?

rofl.
tommy, prove that the given data doesn't account for population and thus is giving out the raw points for the raw number of MKs (say 13) as opposed to the raw number of Snakes (say 2).

 

[demonictoonlink]

It's been argued that the 50% handicap actually helps Metaknight, lol.

Makes no sense. Can't be CG'd by Falco?

Trolling methinks

 

[Justblaze647]

Tomy d you ever get tired?

OHHHH He didn't even spell you're name correctly...

Madd disrespect

 

[HeroMystic]

@Mark and DTL: No legit true combos at low %, and the Falco chaingrab to gatling combo for 70% damage overall, stuff like that.

I'd take the 50% handicap any day though.

 

[Tommy_G]

@Justblaze647
It's what proban is known for and why the thread got locked a while back.

@MarKO X
Omni already did that. The average points per player MK had was less than Snake and Diddy.

Also M2K goes to more decent sized tournaments than any other player. It's only natural that he would have more points.

 

[Overswarm]

OS those numbers do not prove mk is that much better than Snake, Diddy, and Marth. Those numbers reflect the metaknight's placing in tournaments. Since there are a good 5x (13 mks to 2 or 3 snakes in omnis chart)the number of MKs than any other character, it's only natural that the amount of points are going to be higher. I'm actually surprised they're not even better. 5x the amount of characters for 2x the points..

yeah that definitely shows mk is broken(/sarcasm)

Stop feeding these people these lies.

*facepalm*

#1 mistake:

OS those numbers do not prove mk is that much better than Snake, Diddy, and Marth.

Those numbers reflect the metaknight's placing in tournaments.

What. "MK isn't good! He just places well in tournaments!"



#2 mistake:

We have already accounted for popularity. We can prove to you that no, the number of MKs aren't inflating his scores to the degree you think they are.

We've had to tell you this at least half a dozen times now. Other people like Thio still question it but they give specific reasons as to why that we can further investigate. (we've yet to be stumped)


Did I also mention that Snake is roughly as popular as MK?

What's even MORE crazy:

#3 mistake:

We have already determined the odds of Snake and Diddy being on the same level as MK and not having nearly as many players. It's pretty ridiculous. It's kind of like winning the lottery.

So either MK is popular and all the good players decided to main him and none of them decided to main Diddy and Snake save for one each, or MK is a step ahead.

A large, 2000+ point step ahead

 

[ShadowLink84]

OHHHH He didn't even spell you're name correctly...

Madd disrespect

BLASPHEMY!

 

[theunabletable]

Why not just remove MK?

That would hurt the community far worse (and that's really the only convincing argument I've seen for pro-ban, that it seems to hurt the community. Although limiting him and him alone would be far better for the community).

You could do that...but if you're going to go that route, why not limit him from gliding underneath the stage (even when recovering), using tornado, or any other sort of thing in order to nerf him. Because essentially that's what only applying the LGL to him is doing, acknowledging that he is "too good" without it and need to implement another MK specific rule to prevent him from being too unbalanced.

I haven't acknowledged that he needs those things done. But if it gets to the point where he could get banned for planking/scrooging, limiting that would be much better for community (because not even everyone scrooges or planks) than completely banning MK.

And I think Melee was doing just fine with banning people from stalling with Peach's bomber. They didn't completely ban Peach bombering against a wall, but if you stall with it you'll be DQ'd.

And a full on ban to MKs gliding under the stage would solve it as well (if it gets to the point where he should be banned if that isn't done)

Because it's unfair for Metaknight. We would have to do it to the rest of the cast.

Right. Lets ban the entire character. That's fair for Metaknight.

Wait...

Also after watching how ****ing close Larry got to beating M2K and how well he did on neutrals, the "MK can only CP neutrals" rule seems like a good alternative to banning (if it gets to that point), as well. And really, really easy to enforce.

 

[salaboB]

@MarKO X
Omni already did that. The average points per player MK had was less than Snake and Diddy.

The problem with that is that Snake and Diddy are a smaller pool -- but each character has one super-champion. So the Snake/Diddy average is going to get pulled up more by their really good player than the one really good player MK has.

Did Omni drop the top performer from each character before running his averages?

Edit: Apparently Snake isn't a much smaller pool - in which case, he shouldn't need any adjusting. What exactly did Omni do?

 

[Overswarm]

The problem with that is that Snake and Diddy are a smaller pool -- but each character has one super-champion. So the Snake/Diddy average is going to get pulled up more by their really good player than the one really good player MK has.

Did Omni drop the top performer from each character before running his averages?

No, he did not.

@MarKO X
Omni already did that. The average points per player MK had was less than Snake and Diddy.

*facepaaaaaaaaaalm*

He chose an arbitrary cutoff that manipulated the data to an incredible degree. He either made a greivous error in basic logic or was deliberately showing faulty data. He divide Metaknight's points by 13 and divided Snake by 2.

You know what? Search this thread for posts made by "crow!" and just... read them.

 

[Tommy_G]

*facepalm*

#1 mistake:
Those numbers reflect all of the metaknight's placing in tournaments.
what i should have said
#2 mistake:

We have already accounted for popularity. We can prove to you that no, the number of MKs aren't inflating his scores to the degree you think they are.
Haven't seen it yet. Have only seen hands in the air waving about the amounts of points mk has higher then everyone else.

#3 mistake:

We have already determined the odds of Snake and Diddy being on the same level as MK and not having nearly as many players. It's pretty ridiculous. It's kind of like winning the lottery.

That's subjective.

Reply is above.

 

[rvkevin]

Also after watching how ****ing close Larry got to beating M2K and how well he did on neutrals, the "MK can only CP neutrals" rule seems like a good alternative to banning (if it gets to that point), as well. And really, really easy to enforce.

I disagree with this rule...lets say a Wario plays a Snake first round and trying to gain stage advantage, he picks Brinstar, the Snake can just change to MK and secure the set. "MK can only CP neutrals" decreases counter pick opportunities from the rest of the cast.

 

[Overswarm]

No, it isn't subjective. If you haven't seen the data, look it up. Your rephrasing of #1 means the exact same thing.


Dealing with Omni is difficult enough because he is blatently obtuse; I haven't decided if you actually can't understand.


Here, you go and read up:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9412737&postcount=1
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9422054&postcount=58

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585809&postcount=5530

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263165&page=369

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9586472&posted=1#post9586472

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9577148&postcount=5226

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR3nuRY2N7k (pit planking)

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9431088&postcount=691

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9450501&postcount=1352

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9467800&postcount=1732

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9421595&postcount=50

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9430967&postcount=683

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9454853&postcount=180

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9449581&postcount=1297

Crow!:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

http://www.smashboards.com/search.php?searchid=3196767

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9451018#post9451018



Tell me when you're done and I'll give you the next set. You've repeated your same arguments throughout the entire thread, I'll just link you to some of ours.

 

[MarKO X]

@Mark and DTL: No legit true combos at low %, and the Falco chaingrab to gatling combo for 70% damage overall, stuff like that.

I'd take the 50% handicap any day though.

rofl. that's definitely looking at the glass half empty.
the glass half full says that all of that has been auto-done for you.

 

[Overswarm]

rofl. that's definitely looking at the glass half empty.
the glass half full says that all of that has been auto-done for you.

I've tried handicaps. I dunno about 50%, we stopped at 30%, but the general problem was that MK normally takes most of his % in one huge chunk early on. Someone hits him, does their combo, then puts him in a bad position and then attacks him repeatedly hoping on reads. This is different than other characters that get combo'd nonstop or edgeguarded or grabbed for damage. Basically, putting MK at a handicap means standard combos don't work at lower % and he isn't put into those bad positions as often. It certainly made fighting Ness easier back in the day; he'd grab me and instead of me taking 50% I took 10%, up to 40%.

 

[rvkevin]

*facepaaaaaaaaaalm*

He chose an arbitrary cutoff that manipulated the data to an incredible degree. He either made a greivous error in basic logic or was deliberately showing faulty data. He divide Metaknight's points by 13 and divided Snake by 2.

You know what? Search this thread for posts made by "crow!" and just... read them.

You should do it correctly...Take the average of the top 5/10 MKs and compare it to the top 5/10 Snakes, Diddys, Falcos. I would be interested in how disparate they would be.

 

[Overswarm]

You should do it correctly...Take the average of the top 5/10 MKs and compare it to the top 5/10 Snakes, Diddys, Falcos. I would be interested in how disparate they would be.

We did better than that.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

You can see them all individually. If you want to take the average, MK is still ahead.

 

[Justblaze647]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR3nuRY2N7k (pit planking)

So obviously Pit planking is not a problem, even with the projectile. :/

 

[solecalibur]

So obviously Pit planking is not a problem, even with the projectile. :/

It made the IC's MU much harder but still winable on their part as you can see it went to last hit last stock

 

[theunabletable]

I disagree with this rule...lets say a Wario plays a Snake first round and trying to gain stage advantage, he picks Brinstar, the Snake can just change to MK and secure the set. "MK can only CP neutrals" decreases counter pick opportunities from the rest of the cast.

That can still happen now. And why would you be CPing someone who you know plays MK to Brinstar? MK can only CP neutrals doesn't decrease CP options for anyone else.

It's like complaining because you CP'd someone in Melee who you know plays Jiggs to Brinstar and expect him to not go Jiggs.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Reply is above.

So you agree with him?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That match showed how good Pit is on the ledge, but it didn't really show how good he is at "planking"

 

[etecoon]

it's old as hell but this is the only time I've seen a pit plank

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF3BfiNxpiU

 

[rvkevin]

That can still happen now. And why would you be CPing someone who you know plays MK to Brinstar? MK can only CP neutrals doesn't decrease CP options for anyone else.

"MK can only CP neutrals" has less CP options for other characters than if we banned MK.

It would be like if MK auto-wins on some stage. Well the solution is easy, just ban MKs from picking that stage...but the effect on other characters is that they can't CP that stage because then their opponent will just switch to MK hence making those characters that would otherwise benefit from such a stage remain weaker from this rule as opposed to banning MK. You didn't seem to disagree with this point so I'll assume it was a misunderstanding. One way to hurt MK would be to adopt a more conservative stage list...something similar to the Japanese rule set would be more or less "anyone can only CP neutrals."

 

[CR4SH]

I'm gonna lol when tourney rulesets get to the point where MK can only play on neutrals, gets 10 ledgegrabs, can only fly under the stage once at a time, and has a 50% handicap...

I just thought people might like to read this again.

I liked it.

 

['V']

I'm gonna lol when tourney rulesets get to the point where MK can only play on neutrals, gets 10 ledgegrabs, can only fly under the stage once at a time, and has a 50% handicap...

It'll be even funnier if he actually still won like that too.

Seriously... This has gone on for waaaaay too long...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

OS those numbers do not prove mk is that much better than Snake, Diddy, and Marth. Those numbers reflect the metaknight's placing in tournaments. Since there are a good 5x (13 mks to 2 or 3 snakes in omnis chart)the number of MKs than any other character, it's only natural that the amount of points are going to be higher. I'm actually surprised they're not even better. 5x the amount of characters for 2x the points..

yeah that definitely shows mk is broken(/sarcasm)

Stop feeding these people these lies.

Seeing as overswarm already pwned your *** pretty hard, I'm just gonna say, if you aren't willing to LOOK at the pro-ban data and arguments, wtf are you doing here?

 

[Justblaze647]

This has gone on for waaaaay too long...

No.

This has gone on for way too long

 

[theunabletable]

has less CP options for other characters than if we banned MK.

And more people could pick Brinstar in Melee if they weren't so afraid of their opponent picking Jiggs, so ban Jiggs.

It's called being smart with your CPs. Don't CP Brinstar/RC if you know your opponent plays a good MK, just like you shouldn't CP Brinstar in Melee if you know your opponent plays a good Jiggs.

Tbh, I really do like the "MK can only CP neutrals" rule (although I think that rule where you're not allowed to CP the same stage twice (it's called Dave's Stupid Rule, right?) would have to not apply to MK, but that's a fine trade-off, I'd say). It doesn't hurt the community like an MK ban would, MK would likely have legit counters (ICs wouldn't have auto-loss on MKs CPs, and Diddy and Falco would do really well on all neutrals, too), and it's easy to enforce.

If it ever gets to the point where MK might get banned, I honestly think that that kind of rule would be a far better subsitute.

 

[PK-ow!]

There are a grand total of 6 unique individuals that have overcome the top level MK obstacle on more than one occasion. This means that except for the one-time shots, we have 6 horses you could bet on for the race. Two of them share the same character (Snake), and each other player plays a different character. This is strong evidence showing it is the player and not the character itself is the deciding factor for them.... but can the same be said about the 9 Metaknights?

To make matters worse, not only are MKs losing primarily only to other MKs, the other characters are still dropping sets to other characters. That's ridiculous.



[...]


The multiple top MKs are losing to the top players of various other characters, and no one is emulating them at all. That means no one else has the "I only lose in dittos and to super top players" badge for their character on AiB.

The other character mains seem to be dropping sets to other characters on a more frequent basis if the data is indicative of a trend; we'd have to see more to be sure, but this is pretty convincing... Ankoku posted a list of some of the top regional players at Pound 4 that made it to bracket and who they beat / lost to.

Hi, OS, I've quoted this with context for you,

can I ask you what you mean by the parts I've put in bold (and in yellow)? I'm just not familiar with those expressions.


I looked at Crow!'s data post. (btw, one of the links to Crow!'s posts in some previous post is broken. *looks* Post #6739. One of yours, Overswarm.)

Heavy ****.

I'm more struck by this claim that just six players are going against the MK domination. Six. Is this restricted to some region, or half of the nation? Continent?

 

[rvkevin]

And more people could pick Brinstar in Melee if they weren't so afraid of their opponent picking Jiggs, so ban Jiggs.

It's called being smart with your CPs. Don't CP Brinstar/RC if you know your opponent plays a good MK, just like you shouldn't CP Brinstar in Melee if you know your opponent plays a good Jiggs.

Did I say that was reason for a ban? Is it factually incorrect?

You seem to be agreeing with me, so...end of conversation. To clarify, the reason why I disagree with the rule is it is pretty much self-contradictory. If you limit MK to CP'ing neutrals, then you're saying that he significantly beats the cast on counter pick stages, because otherwise, you wouldn't implement such a rule. So if he significantly beats the cast on counter picks, then the above situation applies...unless you're saying that Jigglypuff significantly beats the entire cast on counter picks? And if that's the case, then I would disagree with you or I am ignorant about Melee match ups.

PS: I like Overswarm's initiative to soft-ban MK in the Midwest. At the least, it is another source of data.

 

[etecoon]

It's called being smart with your CPs. Don't CP Brinstar/RC if you know your opponent plays a good MK

but pretty much anyone who's good at all can play a good MK, even if they typically never use him <_<

 

[MKOwnage]

still not viable.

BS! Peach is bad ***. Ive actually been using her lately she might be my new main.

 

[etecoon]

BS! Peach is bad ***. Ive actually been using her lately she might be my new main.

have fun maining a non-viable character then