Official Metaknight Discussion

[MarKO X]

have fun maining a non-viable character then

isn't fun what's maining a non-viable character all about?

 

[etecoon]

I look at it more as a stubborn kind of pride where you go out of your way to make as little money as possible

 

[Allied]

yooo overswarm check out my thread baby i want your kind words in them and my blog ;] http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=58277&page=2 -blog

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266431 - thread

make sure u guys check it out too (lol advertising)

 

[salaboB]

(lol advertising)

Is lol advertising when you send people to www.leagueoflegends.com?

Also, I thought maybe the post would be on topic but after reading it...that's so totally off topic to this thread.

 

[Karcist]

I look at it more as a stubborn kind of pride where you go out of your way to make as little money as possible

There are much better ways to making money than smash, believe me. Some of us use low tiers for the fun of it, and nothing more.

 

[Allied]

meh i dont care this thread is horrible anyway

and im prolly gonna get 2 infraction for both posts by anouku so i'll try to stay on topic with this post

@ Markou maining a nonviable character is great i mained kirby but later on thru tournament experience and realizatino you gotta understand that the tier list really does take over and the top tiers wins, of course there will be outliers that win with lower tier characters but when sh*t hits the fan the top of the top are winning but thats what i love about brawl though because the results are switching so much now

Like in texas a lucas player got 9th out of 61 and a snake won with 1 metaknight that was use as a alternative in like the top 10 (i think at least i was just glancing)

whatever i'm done here

btw i still use kirby in tournament but i definitally rely on my snake :3

 

[etecoon]

There are much better ways to making money than smash, believe me. Some of us use low tiers for the fun of it, and nothing more.

obviously, there's a reason there's only one person who treats this as a job. but most people want to win, no point amputating yourself

 

[Overswarm]

Hi, OS, I've quoted this with context for you,

can I ask you what you mean by the parts I've put in bold (and in yellow)? I'm just not familiar with those expressions.


I looked at Crow!'s data post. (btw, one of the links to Crow!'s posts in some previous post is broken. *looks* Post #6739. One of yours, Overswarm.)

Heavy ****.

I'm more struck by this claim that just six players are going against the MK domination. Six. Is this restricted to some region, or half of the nation? Continent?

To make matters worse, not only are MKs losing primarily only to other MKs, the other characters are still dropping sets to other characters. That's ridiculous.

This means that when you go and look at the top snakes or top diddys and whatnot, you can find fairly consistent (at the very least, saturated) losses to certain characters. When you look at MK, you still see losses but no character saturation or trends.

In other words, it seems your skill is more of a determiner as to whether or not you beat MK and not your character.

The multiple top MKs are losing to the top players of various other characters, and no one is emulating them at all. That means no one else has the "I only lose in dittos and to super top players" badge for their character on AiB.

It means you see ADHD you say "good **** omfg this is amazing maybe Diddy is the answer!" and when you turn around and say "right Diddy mains?!" there's no one there.

MK coughs and a million come out of the walls, clawing and screeching like hellspawn.

The other character mains seem to be dropping sets to other characters on a more frequent basis if the data is indicative of a trend; we'd have to see more to be sure, but this is pretty convincing... Ankoku posted a list of some of the top regional players at Pound 4 that made it to bracket and who they beat / lost to.

This was from a 4 month period by Flayl, and he put it together in mid-January I believe. So, just the most recent results at this time.

 

[Kuraudo]

It means you see ADHD you say "good **** omfg this is amazing maybe Diddy is the answer!" and when you turn around and say "right Diddy mains?!" there's no one there.

MK coughs and a million come out of the walls, clawing and screeching like hellspawn.

That is a disturbing and yet hilarious mental image. LMAO

 

[1048576]

I read Crows post full of charts and Ally is the 9th best MK and whatnot, but there's something that I don't understand.

If MK really is like 10x more popular than Snake, then wouldn't you expect 10 tippy-top Metaknights for every Ally?

Obviously 10x is an exaggeration, but you see the point I'm trying to make. Is there a chart showing the percentage or number of X character mains at each tournament?

Also, is there a way to take all the links you supplied and put them in an easier to reference location (like near the first post?)

 

[OverLade]

If MK really is like 10x more popular than Snake, then wouldn't you expect 10 tippy-top Metaknights for every Ally?

There ARE 10 tippy top MKs for every ally.

 

[Overswarm]

If MK really is like 10x more popular than Snake, then wouldn't you expect 10 tippy-top Metaknights for every Ally?

Up to Ally's standards, not necessarily. Above the other Snakes? Yes.

The question you need to ask is "Is MK 10x more popular than snake?"

 

[Tommy_G]

There ARE 10 tippy top MKs for every ally.

I'm pretty sure the only mks to beat ally recently are m2k(maybe i dont even know their record), ksizzle and seibrik once at winterfest where he beat him back in the pound 4 rematch.

ksizzle beat him because he didnt know how to get around the gmoney strat. it's just another thing to learn against.

I love how all of you proban are discrediting m2ks skill level when you say "Get to a level of ADHD or Ally or pick MK" M2K doesn't win because he uses mk. He wins because he's smart and has a good mentality from melee.
It's more like get better than your opponent or lose. mk doesn't give that much of a significant advantage over the opponent to the point where a good player cant overcome it. usually when i see people go mk, they place the same as if they dont go mk because theyre good at the game.
mk is reasonably beatable. reasonably beatable=not bannable.

 

[Kyoshi123]

No seriously he's just broken

 

[DFEAR]

i dont find mk to be a threat unless my 9 second wall is gone :\. just hate dieing from a shuttleloop and dieing around 15% because i cant get back to the stage safely without getting gimped or predicted and punished :\

 

[Overswarm]

i dont find mk to be a threat unless my 9 second wall is gone :\. just hate dieing from a shuttleloop and dieing around 15% because i cant get back to the stage safely without getting gimped or predicted and punished :\

That's the point; MKs can tilt the matchup by a significant margin by waiting 9 seconds.

 

[OverLade]

I'm pretty sure the only mks to beat ally recently are m2k(maybe i dont even know their record), ksizzle and seibrik once at winterfest where he beat him back in the pound 4 rematch.

ksizzle beat him because he didnt know how to get around the gmoney strat. it's just another thing to learn against.

I love how all of you proban are discrediting m2ks skill level when you say "Get to a level of ADHD or Ally or pick MK" M2K doesn't win because he uses mk. He wins because he's smart and has a good mentality from melee.

The statement is based on statistics, not skill level. There are at least 10 MKs that place as consistently as Ally does, which is where the statement comes from.

Ally beating every MK doesnt mean MK doesn't dominate otherwise, which is where (MK is 10 times as good as Snake comes from). *inb4namesearch* Havok/DSF/Tyrant/Dojo/Shadow/Ksizzle/M2K/Seibrik/Me/Darklink/Leemartin/Judge all get top 2 at locals as frequently as Ally gets 1st/2nd at nationals. MK doesn't win nationals because of 2 players, but outside of that most regions are dominated by a MK.

And saying "get better" doesn't MK has a matchup advantage in every matchup. If you get better, the MK player can get better and adjust to your playstyle. You talk about MK players like they're different from other players. They're not necessarily any better than other top players, but they clearly can adapt and learn just like any other player.

It's more like get better than your opponent or lose. mk doesn't give that much of a significant advantage over the opponent to the point where a good player cant overcome it. usually when i see people go mk, they place the same as if they dont go mk because theyre good at the game.
mk is reasonably beatable. reasonably beatable=not bannable.

If your opponent is already better than you, you're not going to get better to the point where you can beat them consistently. You're not judging MK from the highest level, and tbh tommy, you're not experienced against top MKs, which is why you don't understand the level of effort you have to put in to win. You play seibrik but Seibrik is probably the most conservative of the top MKs.

And you said "usually when I see", which doesn't mean anything because it's not true on a universal scale. A lot of what you may see is dependent on region. In FL especially, placings wouldn't change much if MK was banned but in many regions they would change significantly.

 

[DFEAR]

That's the point; MKs can tilt the matchup by a significant margin by waiting 9 seconds.

T.T always have to have at least one banana out, matchup becomes severely gay if mk simply holds one banana ,tossing it up or hoggin the nana on or near himself, using z drop aerials to always have control of the nana, etc.

this forces diddy to be like ughhhh gotta think of how to approach safely without getting owned for something no other character can do to diddy (unless its IC or d3).

could i use the banana i have in my hand on the ground and move it slowly towards mk and shoot peanuts or will he just jump around and time me the **** out or just wait till i get impatient and punish with gimps, oos suff, and almost punishable ****. those questions always run through my head if i see a mk knowledgeable with nanas.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

I'd have to have crow run the numbers, but I'm not sure what you're looking for that you can't already see with the data we have.

Look at January
1 Meta Knight (179 top8, 126 top4, 72 top2, 75 wins, 452 total) - 4020.7
2 Snake (131 top8, 71 top4, 39 top2, 48 wins, 289 total) - 2024.0

Now look at February
1 Meta Knight (179 top 8, 123 top4, 73 top2, 80 wins, 455 total) - 3939.7
2 Snake (122 top8, 72 top4, 32 top2, 50 wins, 276 total) 1879.7

Less total points (less tournaments/attendance/etc. in February... up to the current date), but the gap has widened between MK and Snake. Snake is still in 2nd place.

S Rank «Uber» 43.23%
1 Meta Knight - 4020.7
2 Snake - 2024.0

A Rank «Overused» 20.67%
3 Diddy Kong - 1325.6
4 Marth - 877.9
5 Falco - 686.0

Has changed into this (so far):

MK - 3939.7 (loss of 81 points)
Snake - 1879.7 (loss of 144.3 points)
Diddy - 1146.1 (loss of 179.5 points)
Marth - 930.1 (gain of 52.2 points)
Falco - 636.8 (loss of 49.2 points)

It doesn't seem as if MK has really stopped rising, and even if he has... it doesn't really matter. The listings above obviously aren't complete since February isn't done; Snake could theoretically get top 8 in every tourney for the rest of the month or something.

I don't have enough data on hand to make a trend and am a bit occupied with some other stuff at the moment, but I think this shows that at least MK isn't suddenly spiraling downwards.

Sniddarth (Snake, Diddy, and Marth combined) have a total of 3955.9 points. That means the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best characters combined are a grand total of 16.2 points ahead of Metaknight.

Scary stuff.

Tournament wins in Jan:



TOURNAMENT: Next Level Lan - Inaugural Brawl
LINK: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=265315
DATE: February 13th, 2010
LOCALE: Atlantic South
ENTRANTS: 40
ENTRY: $10.00
1 HRNUT (Snake/Meta Knight)<----------------------






To an extent, yes. Someone saying "Only having one viable character in a fighting game is okay" really can't be argued against so much, but I don't really care too much about that because anyone who says that is insane. If that was the case they'd support ivan ooze dittos all day =P

I did not use mk, don't put that up there, please fix that it was snake only

 

[Overswarm]

I did not use mk, don't put that up there, please fix that it was snake only

You'd have to post in the character's ranking thread; the results are lifted directly from that data.

 

[Ripple]

so about how ally just beat M2K.......AGAIN

ally is too good

 

[DFEAR]

i love how we talk about players when we should be talking about the character

 

[iRJi]

i love how we talk about players when we should be talking about the character

This^^^^^.

 

[TLMSheikant]

i love how we talk about players when we should be talking about the character

QFT. 10mkbans.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't even know what htis thread is about anymore.

 

[Overswarm]

Compiling arguments, mostly. Still looking for more anti-ban ones.

 

[DFEAR]

without metaknight owning my *** on the edge i could never have figured out creative ways of coming back to the stage :\...i think mk just evolves the edge/air metagame

 

[Overswarm]

without metaknight owning my *** on the edge i could never have figured out creative ways of coming back to the stage :\...i think mk just evolves the edge/air metagame

I hope you realize the implications of a single character forcing his opponents to push their metagame forward at a level beyond what they would normally reach.

 

[DFEAR]

I know, but is that a bad thing? Would characters currently be at the level they are at without the help of metaknight? Hmm I'm gonna lurk around and figure some stuff out before I can rebuttal anything :\

 

[Overswarm]

I know, but is that a bad thing? Would characters currently be at the level they are at without the help of metaknight? Hmm I'm gonna lurk around and figure some stuff out before I can rebuttal anything :\

No, they wouldn't. It's largely irrelevant anyway; Not only is MK the easiest mountain to climb, MK has the highest mountain top.

 

[DFEAR]

I agree, now that just isnt fair :\
I remember you saying that mk is ur brain in character form and only you can make mistakes not the character or w.e . Every other character cannot achieve such personal control.

I see what you mean by the highest mountain top as well. Are the other characters destined to fall to every mk at the end meta-game?

ivan ooze dittos here we go...

 

[ShadowLink84]

so about how ally just beat M2K.......AGAIN

ally is too good

I really would enjoy it if Smashboards would, as a collective, stop meat riding the players.

Its generally disgusting, stupid, and annoying.

I speak in general Ripple.
*kicks you off a cliff anyway*

 

[Overswarm]

In melee, we basically had the same character with Fox, just few things were changed. Unfortunately, Fox's big weakness was recovery and that caused him a stock many a match. MK's weakness is that he doesn't have a projectile, meaning he just grabs the ledge or approaches you, which isn't as much of a problem.

In addition to this, Fox took a tremendous amount of tech skill. This meant that while he was the highest mountain top, he wasn't the easiest to climb at all... and Fox could dish it out but couldn't take it. Off stage was dangerous for Fox in itself, but even on stage could lead to serious trouble. How often have we seen Falco, Marth, Falcon, Jiggs, Peach, or ICs just grab him once and do a total **** train by comboing him for a million %? Fox could be combo'd for pretty much his entire lifespan, so it wasn't like he could camp until X% and approach, so one mistake could be fatal.

Not so much for MK.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, Fox had weaknesses (even tremendous ones). Even if we're arguing Jiggs is the best in Melee she has weaknesses, too.

BTW, Fox is screwed so badly by mechanics in this game. High tier character if he wasn't gayed so easily.

 

[CRASHiC]

Ganon doesn't

 

[DFEAR]

so 6796 posts later. where is this discussion going :\

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

so 6796 posts later. where is this discussion going :\

Pro-ban is pretty much waiting on anti-ban to bring up anything convincing at all. >.>At this point the only anti-bans still in this thread are really Thio and Tommy; the former is apparently willing to change his mind, the latter has nothing to offer beyond "get better noob".

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

There was talk of a poll a while ago. Has that gone anywhere?

 

[Overswarm]

so 6796 posts later. where is this discussion going :\

Current trends:

Non-philosophical arguments have all been factually debunked. Popularity of MK isn't a reason for anything, MK really DOES do that much better, Ally != Snake, ADHD != Diddy, have proven there is no current character counter nor any trend for such a thing (characters like Pikachu and Fox actually have more of a chance of being an MK counter with current data), have proven any attempt at using statistical data for the anti-ban side has been faulty in method and/or data used, and have found no other avenues in which to look.

Philosophical trends such as "it's okay to only have one viable character out of 36!" aren't really arguable unless we figure out what IS important to those people, and at the moment we can't really argue them.

Future arguments, such as "How do you know the game will better if MK is gone" are unanswerable because we aren't psychic.

We CAN test them though.

Current direction is to move towards a test ban for 6 months, and then to compare the data and make our decision afterwards.

 

[Gnes]

Hm test ban...texas is way ahead if thats the way its going.

We banned mk a while back...tourneys did see more diversity at the top and overall, especially at the beginning...in the end it was usually snake/diddy winning the tourneys, though that could be easily predicted.