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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Sinz

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Shadowlink. You are forgetting that there are two players playing, not just a character and a person playing MK. But two players. Tornado has start up time so you can make a decision as to what you will do.
 

ShadowLink84

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Shadowlink. You are forgetting that there are two players playing, not just a character and a person playing MK. But two players. Tornado has start up time so you can make a decision as to what you will do.
There are TWO player's.
One CONTROLLING the move, and one who has to DEAL with it.
The person in control, you know, controls the move.
So answer me this, at what point, is it wise to tornado towards an opponent when you are in a neutral position?

To clarfiy, why the hell are you trying to tornado Snake when he can whip out a grenade and shield with it in hand?
Why are you trying to tornado anyone when you are in a neutral position where they can counter it?
Why?


Please read your post and take your own advice.
No reputable Metaknight, is going to use the tornado like an idiot.

It's like when people charge up that Ike Forward Smash, and STILL roll into it.
Or when they RUN into Sonic's Fsmash.
Or when they use a completely unsafe move on Marth's shield at killing percents.
Or when they use a No Pikmin Olimar.
Or when they try to Warlock Punch you as an edgeguard.
Stupid is stupid.

A good move is a good move, but any good move used BADLY can, should and WILL be punished.
 

MarKO X

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nado has 29 frames of cooldown.
that's a whole half a second.

just sayin
 

etecoon

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The main issue is thus, NO CHARACTER CAN JUST BEAT OUT TORNADO EASILY.
meta knight, nearly all attacks flat out beat it and SDIing out and dairing him out of it is fairly easy at least compared to other characters

just use meta knight : p

b-b-but Snake has nades. STFU who tornado's you while you hold a grenade?
snake's nades don't really stop you from whoring the tornado, you just tornado his head and laugh at how poorly his grenades protect him

You punish once the move ends, its difficult to punish it unless it is used STUPIDLY..
not really, most decent characters can punish it after it ends, you're left with a pretty significant frame advantage.
 

etecoon

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from MK frame data thread

Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.
it doesn't seem right though, pretty sure that it is actually significantly less than that if autocancelled properly.
 

Atomsk_92

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No you are missing what I am saying.
I am adding to what you said in that there is no reasonable method by which we can just beat it out, but this goes for MANY characters, not just Sonic, and running away for Sonic is really ****ing good.
Where as most character have to sit down and take it like a *****, we can at least continue controlling our options.




Why is he letting you suck him up?



Why is he letting you pivot grab him?



Why is he so close to let you grab it?



Why would he be stupid enough to run into your smash?




RANDOM CHANCE GO!



Why is he so close?



Why is he allowing you time to Utilt him?
Wait why is he trying to sit himself on your head?



Why is he so low?



Why is he running into the Fair?



Why is he letting you Dair him?



So can Sonic. WOOHOO THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON!
SONIC FOR TOP TIER!



SHOOP DA WHOOP!



Wis he standing still?



LOL


See? HE AGREES WITH ME!

You can list all these options, but why is MK falling for them?


For Sonic, there are two safe methods.
1. Run away!
2. Run away and if you cant avoid it, shield it and punish with dash shield grab.
Lolz you are a ****ing moron if you believe none of those will happen.
 

St. Viers

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@Shadowlink: Basically, you're saying that the MK will never actually approach you w/ the tornado, because if he does, than you can hit him out of it...you aren't making much sense.

I mean, I know you're trying to say that he'll only nado when you can't punish him, but that would mean he's never nado unless you tripped or did something like whiff a smash attack w/ large cooldown time, which, if we're answering like you, "why are you putting yourself in lag w/ that?" or "RANDOM CHANCWE O!" Even if you do get hit, SDIing up and punishing him isn't *that* hard (I don't play very often, even less against MKs that nado, and I still can do it when I get caught)
 

OverLade

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fkacyan

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I find the second case to be highly unlikely. Regardless of the amount of MK players and the amount of MK players you would expect diminishing returns. Regardless of how many MK players there are Brawl's engine should limit growth at some point. There are only so many options to explore, and defeating MK is a focal point of virtually any character's community. Yet there is no sign of other characters catching up. Comparing the 13 month data set with the 6 month data set you can see that MK is actually improving.
Two problems with this:

- If the characters focus so much on beating MK, what happens to the rest of their matchup research? Stagnation, that's what. Also, that 'at some point' might not have been reached yet, or MK could be vastly closer than any other character.
- Comparing a data set to another data set that includes the first is actually pretty silly. I'd like to see two six-month charts, side by side, to view the actual change in his dominance.

C is also questionable. It has been claimed that the best players are attracted to MK because of his reputation as the best. This seems a bit sketchy to say the least. If these players are truly better you would expect them to be knowledgeable enough to separate hype from potential. If these players are just naturally better I'd expect them to be analyzing the game well enough to see for themselves who the best character is.
MK is the best character. I don't think anybody's stupid enough to debate this. Thus, by your logic, it's perfectly likely the best players use MK.
 
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LOL you're dumb as hell, do you even play this game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUBh4AJkVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzH-3EWYQSA

edit:
Now I want you to count the number of "random tornados", and tally up the number that connect, then the number that dont connect, and get punished. Im sure the results will surprise you...
I watched the second one for a minute and a half and counted 6, 5, and 1 respectively. As in, 6 randoms, 5 hit, 1 whiffs and gets punished.
 

hotgarbage

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Not if MK ends it at the right height.
Then they land with no lag.
That's a whole 0 frames. (Maybe 1-2?)

Just saying. :3
In that case there's technically still 29 frames of lag. He's just falling for 29 frames instead of sitting on the ground for 29 frames.

JuSt SaYiNg x3
 

OverLade

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In that case there's technically still 29 frames of lag. He's just falling for 29 frames instead of sitting on the ground for 29 frames.

JuSt SaYiNg x3
That 29 frames of lag is a hell of a lot harder to punish visually than 29 ground frames. MK can "dashdance" as he hovers with his tornado and punishing the landing a guessing/reading game. And it's really not very easy comparatively.

In addition for example, as snake you have a guaranteed Ftilt on the normal 29 frame landing, but if you Ftilt him while he's in the air only the first hit will connect and MK will be knocked away.
 

Overswarm

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The variable is players. You have proven that current MK mains perform better than current Snake mains - Cool! But that doesn't tell us what happens if the players switch.
This kind of thing can only be found out "for sure" if we either

A) have a history of players switching to MK

or

B) have a temporary banning period



What we're shooting for at the moment is B.

You can't really "prove" A. The only players you'd want to look at our good players and, by definition, good players place well. So we can look at players like DSF, myself, seibrik, havok, and (to a lesser extent) M2K that played another character and see their results from when they switched.

All the players listed above still place well, and personally I know MK made my job a lot easier. With my ROB I used to go last hit in a game whether I wanted to or not if I couldn't get a gimp; it's how the character is designed. He's supposed to poke and outlast. This made for a lot of close games! MK doesn't have that much problem.

Additionally, I don't have to practice anymore. I practiced for hours each day with ROB to stay on top of the game and learn new things, and I was on the top 10 of AiB's ladder with all my wifi wins; I even won the smashboard's wifi tourney (largest tourney to date, take THAT M2K!) and was ranked on the (now defunct) wifiwars ladder on 1st place simultaneously with AiB. With MK, I just kinda pick him up and wing it and pull a mew2king; I only know the "top tier" matchups. Characters like Diddy and Wario give me the most trouble outside of MK solely because we have a very small number of those characters, but as time has gone on they've become less of an issue.

So for me, it's pretty obvious. MK is hella easy to play and has improved my chance of getting money. Doubles is guaranteed top 2 at worst; other than losing to M2K, I've placed 2nd with my teammate Kel (another MK) a grand total of one time... which was last weekend to AZ and Blue Rogue! It was last set, last game, last stock high % for everyone, so not even a blowout; not really concerning for me.

For everyone else? "omg johns" and "you don't get 1st all the time" and "you won tons with ROB and switched to MK and now you do awful!" and other such things. It is basically my word against theirs, and it gets worse when I talk about players that aren't me.

In other words, we don't have nearly enough data to make a conclusion. Just a few isolated incidences here and there and a lot of variables that cannot be accounted for. It'd take a lot of work to make a bunch of data that wouldn't really help either side regardless of the outcome, unless someone knows something I don't!

All I can say is that from all the data we have, Snake mains should have a better time if they main MK. That, and ask the question "why would a winning player switch from one character to MK"? But again, it's all conjecture without data behind it.


So really, all we can do is a 6 month trial period. We'd get to see all sorts of information that would basically prove, conclusively, what is truth and what is conjecture.

A 6 month trial period might seem like a lot, but we're asking for it for good reason. This would literally give us something to compare our data to in the Brawl universe, and this would answer questions for all future smash games too!

A 6 month trial period would simply mean that it would be the BBR's recommendation that a ban takes place, and multiple tournaments at the local, regional, and national level would then ban Metaknight without fearing tremendous backlash. MK mains would be given warning, of course, but once the ban hits we'd get results from all over the country and would learn a lot of useful information. There'd still be MK-allowed tournaments from time to time I'm sure, in some regions more than others, but we'd be able to get a clear picture of the metagame if MK was gone and notice several trends.
 

hotgarbage

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That 29 frames of lag is a hell of a lot harder to punish visually than 29 ground frames. MK can "dashdance" as he hovers with his tornado and punishing the landing a guessing/reading game. And it's really not very easy comparatively.

In addition for example, as snake you have a guaranteed Ftilt on the normal 29 frame landing, but if you Ftilt him while he's in the air only the first hit will connect and MK will be knocked away.
Sooooo true. I was just being pedantic/silly xP. And hey I (somehow) never thought of that ftit thing. Neato.
 

Overswarm

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Two problems with this:

- If the characters focus so much on beating MK, what happens to the rest of their matchup research? Stagnation, that's what. Also, that 'at some point' might not have been reached yet, or MK could be vastly closer than any other character.
- Comparing a data set to another data set that includes the first is actually pretty silly. I'd like to see two six-month charts, side by side, to view the actual change in his dominance.
I'd like to too... one with MK and one without. :(

MK is the best character. I don't think anybody's stupid enough to debate this. Thus, by your logic, it's perfectly likely the best players use MK.
It's perfectly likely that they should use MK. I was at a tournament this weekend but it only had 21 people, so not a huge amount of money. My teammate and I were the only MK mains that showed up, so we decided to play non-MK. I went Fox and Donkey Kong and got 4th! :D

Is this stupid of me? Well, yes. It doesn't mean I won't do it. Most people kinda hate MK... and having a crowd of people behind me (as much of a crowd as you can get in a 21 person tournament, anyways) cheering about how awesome it was to watch as opposed to people booing or just plain not watching MK... it's more fun!
 

DMG

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MK's frame disadvantage after Tornado however is strongly reduced if he forces you to shield and he retreats from you (retreating behind the person is technically stronger since they have to take a small amount of time to turn around). You also have to factor in shield drop (since most characters cannot punish tornado with Upb OOS as they are hit shielding, or even an aerial OOS), and how many frames it would take for that character to cover that distance, whether it be through a run/dash/DACUS/etc. A lot of characters unfortunately do not have a good answer to tornado when done correctly, at least not framewise when trying to punish it.
 

Overswarm

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Thiocyanide:

Do you have any suggestions as to what we could do other than a temp ban?

Any reason why we shouldn't do a temp ban?
 

Espy Rose

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lol SL. I still don't know why you even came in here.

There are only so many options to explore, and defeating MK is a focal point of virtually any character's community.
I've seen from my own boards that the first discussion ever discussed is MK, whether it be from the matchup thread, or "How to Overcome X Move".
Sonics ran a "how to beat tornado" thread once.

Despite all the discussion and possible options that we DO have, we never did find a move that would outright stop it.

Our only reasonable option is to run.
I was simply adding onto this small discussion. What you did was pretty pointless, considering that those options will rarely happen in tournaments, if ever.

That, and you've proven to me that you don't play this game through your most recent posts. There's no way you can play this game and think like that.
 
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Ok, here we go:

Detailed explanation of proposal: Temp ban of metaknight.

We will divide the year into two sections, a six-month interval in length for each section. One interval will have Metaknight banned from tourney play, and another interval with Metaknight in play. The reason why it is a six-month interval are for these reasons:

1) If the time interval is shorter, player can simply wait out until the testing is finished. By making it 6 months of testing continuously , not only does that give us enough time to actually see a chance in the meta game, it also disables players from just simply “waiting until it’s done”

2) The time interval gives enough time for a single person to enter enough tourneys where the game can drastically change. It was suggested that if we can do it for 3-4 months instead of six months, and it was turned down because of this reason:

On average, a tournament is held on Saturdays. There are 4 Saturdays in a month. By doing this calculation for six months, a single person can have an approximate total of 24 tournament entries. Now, if you want to do fewer months, you subtract 4 for every month you want eliminated, so if you want the interval to be 3 months, you take 24-12 and you only get 12 tournaments, and for 4 months, you only get 16. There is a huge mathematical difference in these numbers. By taking off months, you limit the information that can be gained, the extra time to properly learn a high potential of a character, and the possible growth of a character overall.

3) By making it ½ a year of testing, you allow players to gain more experience with other characters, and by doing that, they can possibly place better in tournaments. This will help the results overall for logging them.

How to log the information


Each month we make a thread on Smashboards in the tactical section (or one major thread with all the information gathered) and we take information that happen within each month and break it down into sections:

1) Character Usage
2) Overall attendance
3) Character Development
4) player reactions in terms of how he feels at the state where he/she is in about how the meta game

The reason why I have this combination of choice is because it splits factual hand-put data, with opinion based emotion about a situation. The meta game is not just based on the characters, but how the players feel toward the characters. Within the 6 months, we can take note on how a character has grown or has been crippled, and add that to overall data. In 6 months, we can take the overall character usage and attendance, and see how a character grew within that time. By doing this monthly, we can compare data over time as well as a persons’ opinion about this situation, and see how it changes within the 6 months.

We will keep track of placings by how Ankoku does it. Here are the requirements:

MAKE SURE IT WAS AT LEAST 13 PEOPLE IN THE TOURNAMENT
Number of entrants
Entry fee
Where it was (what state it was in, or something)
Top 16, with character main for each of the top 16
Link to tournament page or results page
(I made it top 16. If there is less, just post them all with the format above. No listing under 13 will be accepted.)

We would first need someone to keep log on this thread, with this information. I do not want to Force it on Ankoku if this proposal passes through, unless he is willing to do it by his own free will.

A note of change: This thread needs to gather information other than just people posting results in it. This needs to be done because it can skew the information and make it inaccurate. We need every possible tournament logged with correct results from it at all times. The way we can do this is 2-4 people from each region can search and post all the tournament results possible. The people who are doing this need to be trust worthy and handpicked so nothing is left out. (I know it is a lot of work, but people can possibly mess up information, this of course, does not limit normal players from posting their own results)

When all of the information is gathered, we can then determine if Metaknight is ban worthy or not. At this time, we can possibly come up with a definition of what meets the requirements for a ban in brawl, and stick to it.

I hope that this is clear, understandable, and reasonable.

OS, if you agree with this, please post this in the BBR and attempt to get their approval with it. If the BBR will accept this proposal, it will be a lot easier to manage everything. Changes can be made too, so try to compromise if anything xD. (Only if it is reasonable and has a good explanation for doing so, but of course, I do not have to tell you this. Your OS, you know already lol.)


 

Tommy_G

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Why is he letting you suck him up?
Why is he letting you pivot grab him?
Why is he so close to let you grab it?
Why would he be stupid enough to run into your smash?
RANDOM CHANCE GO!
Why is he so close?
Why is he allowing you time to Utilt him?
Wait why is he trying to sit himself on your head?
Why is he so low?
Why is he running into the Fair?
Why is he letting you Dair him?
So can Sonic. WOOHOO THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON!
SONIC FOR TOP TIER!
SHOOP DA WHOOP!
Wis he standing still?
LOL
See? HE AGREES WITH ME!
yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
 

MarKO X

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yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
Let's assume the DDD can "get better." :chuckle:
 

NickRiddle

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yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
Don't you know, Tommy? MK mains all have 1 frame reaction times, therefore they can ALWAYS REACT!
:D
:|
:(
 

Tommy_G

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Will everyone stop bickering about stuff that's unimportant?
Kinda what I've been thinking about throughout this whole thread.

Let's assume the DDD can "get better." :chuckle:
If the MK player can beat the DDD player by spamming tornado(where there are clear options for mixup for the DDD to use), DDD should lose. XD

I can tell you exactly what'll happen if MK gets temp banned. Everyone will stay exactly as they are except for the people who main MK. It's just like if you were to ban a different character. People do worse without their own personal experience with their character. It's not MK that makes these people better. It's their character experience.(OMG no proof wut)
I saw this in a court hearing once on jury duty. The plaintiff knew they couldn't sue for a good amount because they knew their case was falling apart, so they asked for significantly less out of pity. Pity isn't suppose to decide rulings, and it didn't there.
 

Tien2500

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Two problems with this:

- If the characters focus so much on beating MK, what happens to the rest of their matchup research?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Stagnation, that's what. Also, that 'at some point' might not have been reached yet, or MK could be vastly closer than any other character.
I seriously doubt that. Brawl just isn't deep enough that we should see his growth increase at this rate especially considering that other characters are studying him closely.

.
- Comparing a data set to another data set that includes the first is actually pretty silly. I'd like to see two six-month charts, side by side, to view the actual change in his dominance.
Its really not hard to imagine what happens if the data were broken up differently. Lets assume it was a twelve month period for ease. If he was 2.5x better than Snake in the the 13 month period and 3x better than Snake in the 6 month period (just using easy numbers here). Then on average he should have been 2x better than Snake in the first 6 month period. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it would go.

MK is the best character. I don't think anybody's stupid enough to debate this. Thus, by your logic, it's perfectly likely the best players use MK.
Well I believe you were arguing that MK's dominance was mostly a result of a hyper advanced metagame rather than MK being as far above the others as the data shows.
 

fkacyan

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here.



I seriously doubt that. Brawl just isn't deep enough that we should see his growth increase at this rate especially considering that other characters are studying him closely.

.

Its really not hard to imagine what happens if the data were broken up differently. Lets assume it was a twelve month period for ease. If he was 2.5x better than Snake in the the 13 month period and 3x better than Snake in the 6 month period (just using easy numbers here). Then on average he should have been 2x better than Snake in the first 6 month period. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it would go.



Well I believe you were arguing that MK's dominance was mostly a result of a hyper advanced metagame rather than MK being as far above the others as the data shows.
I'm arguing that the notion that all of the data being attributed to MK simply being a better character is silly because of the other factors I've mentioned.
 

ShadowLink84

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@Shadowlink: Basically, you're saying that the MK will never actually approach you w/ the tornado, because if he does, than you can hit him out of it...you aren't making much sense.

I mean, I know you're trying to say that he'll only nado when you can't punish him, but that would mean he's never nado unless you tripped or did something like whiff a smash attack w/ large cooldown time, which, if we're answering like you, "why are you putting yourself in lag w/ that?" or "RANDOM CHANCE O!" Even if you do get hit, SDIing up and punishing him isn't *that* hard (I don't play very often, even less against MKs that nado, and I still can do it when I get caught)

Hardly, what I said is he will never try and Nado you from a neutral position.
For example, if Snake is standing on one side and MK is standing on the other, he sould not Nado.
Simply because Snake would whip out a grenade in 1 frame and then BOOM.

Sam thing against someone like DDD, he wont Nado towards DDD from a NEUTRAL position when DDD will just suck him up.

Lolz you are a ****ing moron if you believe none of those will happen.
Stop trolling Atomsk.

LOL you're dumb as hell, do you even play this game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUBh4AJkVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzH-3EWYQSA

edit:
Now I want you to count the number of "random tornados", and tally up the number that connect, then the number that dont connect, and get punished. Im sure the results will surprise you...
*facedesk*
This is the primary reason I troll, because when you speak to people, they act, stupid.
As I said earlier, MK will NOT nado you from a neutral position. He won't nado you when you are capable of punishing it.

Guess what Ksizzle does in the match, tornadoes the crap out of Ally when he is in a position where he cannot outright punish it.
Even then, there were several circumstances where Ally made an error and was hit by the tornado ANYWAY ; dropping his shield only for Ksizzle to come back and hit him with the same tornado for example.

It is like Sonic's down B and Side B.
Why are you allowing yourself to get rushed down by the move from a neutral position? if you notice, its only used when the opponent is in a position where they cannot punish it easily, where they are unprepared.
In short, when they are NOT in a NEUTRAL position.

Now i need to ask if you even understood what you were disagreeing with me in the first place.

If Ally fails to punish it from a neutral position, thats called, *looks back and forth* AN ERROR!


Edit2: Or even better, the match on halberd against ALly that had 80+ tornado'smost of which occurred when Ally couldnt do anything to effectively punish it.

yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
By your logic, everything in the game is punishable .
 

Overswarm

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I'm arguing that the notion that all of the data being attributed to MK simply being a better character is silly because of the other factors I've mentioned.
So if we could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MK as a character was a much more prominent attribute to his dominance than the amount of players or skill of players, would you switch to pro-ban?
 

iRJi

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People will soon learn that this way of getting information is dominate. Speculating the situation on terms of what "might" happen will not state what "will happen" which is what I keep saying over and over again. Arguing what could happen is not the same as what will happen. The only real way to test what will happen is when you put the situation at hand.

What if Metaknight was out of the picture for 6 months?

Many of the people in here argued that

"to drop a character from someone would cripple them"

Could I say this on the visa versa? Wouldn't dropping someone who does not main Metaknight to go and main Metaknight cripple them? The fact is everyone needs time to learn a character. This is the obvious. To easily solve this issue, I would admit a 60 day (2 months) cushion before a temp ban is issued. With 60 days, this gives you enough time to learn another character and begin training with him to get better. Of course, this still leads to the question "if i drop my main, (Metaknight) I would have to start fresh" Just remember when you say this, think of the opposite "When I drop my main (Any other character but Metaknight) I have to start fresh"

Stop arguing in a circle. You want results? Do something that produces the facts, not theory.

I am pro Temp-ban.
 

Sinz

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And how the hell will you guys decide on where to do this temp ban?
 
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Uh, why wouldn't it? At least three TOs here (Inferno?, Alex Strife, BUM) are either pro-ban or neutral. Inferno has expressed interest in hosting MK-banned tourneys before and his tourneys turn out good numbers.

Whether or not MK players decide to stop participating is another story, though. I suspect many would still attend.
 
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