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There are TWO player's.Shadowlink. You are forgetting that there are two players playing, not just a character and a person playing MK. But two players. Tornado has start up time so you can make a decision as to what you will do.
meta knight, nearly all attacks flat out beat it and SDIing out and dairing him out of it is fairly easy at least compared to other charactersThe main issue is thus, NO CHARACTER CAN JUST BEAT OUT TORNADO EASILY.
snake's nades don't really stop you from whoring the tornado, you just tornado his head and laugh at how poorly his grenades protect himb-b-but Snake has nades. STFU who tornado's you while you hold a grenade?
not really, most decent characters can punish it after it ends, you're left with a pretty significant frame advantage.You punish once the move ends, its difficult to punish it unless it is used STUPIDLY..
Not if MK ends it at the right height.nado has 29 frames of cooldown.
that's a whole half a second.
just sayin
it doesn't seem right though, pretty sure that it is actually significantly less than that if autocancelled properly.Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.
Lolz you are a ****ing moron if you believe none of those will happen.No you are missing what I am saying.
I am adding to what you said in that there is no reasonable method by which we can just beat it out, but this goes for MANY characters, not just Sonic, and running away for Sonic is really ****ing good.
Where as most character have to sit down and take it like a *****, we can at least continue controlling our options.
Why is he letting you suck him up?
Why is he letting you pivot grab him?
Why is he so close to let you grab it?
Why would he be stupid enough to run into your smash?
RANDOM CHANCE GO!
Why is he so close?
Why is he allowing you time to Utilt him?
Wait why is he trying to sit himself on your head?
Why is he so low?
Why is he running into the Fair?
Why is he letting you Dair him?
So can Sonic. WOOHOO THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON!
SONIC FOR TOP TIER!
SHOOP DA WHOOP!
Wis he standing still?
LOL
See? HE AGREES WITH ME!
You can list all these options, but why is MK falling for them?
For Sonic, there are two safe methods.
1. Run away!
2. Run away and if you cant avoid it, shield it and punish with dash shield grab.
LOL you're dumb as hell, do you even play this game?Please read your post and take your own advice.
No reputable Metaknight, is going to use the tornado like an idiot.
Two problems with this:I find the second case to be highly unlikely. Regardless of the amount of MK players and the amount of MK players you would expect diminishing returns. Regardless of how many MK players there are Brawl's engine should limit growth at some point. There are only so many options to explore, and defeating MK is a focal point of virtually any character's community. Yet there is no sign of other characters catching up. Comparing the 13 month data set with the 6 month data set you can see that MK is actually improving.
MK is the best character. I don't think anybody's stupid enough to debate this. Thus, by your logic, it's perfectly likely the best players use MK.C is also questionable. It has been claimed that the best players are attracted to MK because of his reputation as the best. This seems a bit sketchy to say the least. If these players are truly better you would expect them to be knowledgeable enough to separate hype from potential. If these players are just naturally better I'd expect them to be analyzing the game well enough to see for themselves who the best character is.
I watched the second one for a minute and a half and counted 6, 5, and 1 respectively. As in, 6 randoms, 5 hit, 1 whiffs and gets punished.LOL you're dumb as hell, do you even play this game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUBh4AJkVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzH-3EWYQSA
edit:
Now I want you to count the number of "random tornados", and tally up the number that connect, then the number that dont connect, and get punished. Im sure the results will surprise you...
In that case there's technically still 29 frames of lag. He's just falling for 29 frames instead of sitting on the ground for 29 frames.Not if MK ends it at the right height.
Then they land with no lag.
That's a whole 0 frames. (Maybe 1-2?)
Just saying. :3
That 29 frames of lag is a hell of a lot harder to punish visually than 29 ground frames. MK can "dashdance" as he hovers with his tornado and punishing the landing a guessing/reading game. And it's really not very easy comparatively.In that case there's technically still 29 frames of lag. He's just falling for 29 frames instead of sitting on the ground for 29 frames.
JuSt SaYiNg x3
This kind of thing can only be found out "for sure" if we eitherThe variable is players. You have proven that current MK mains perform better than current Snake mains - Cool! But that doesn't tell us what happens if the players switch.
Sooooo true. I was just being pedantic/silly xP. And hey I (somehow) never thought of that ftit thing. Neato.That 29 frames of lag is a hell of a lot harder to punish visually than 29 ground frames. MK can "dashdance" as he hovers with his tornado and punishing the landing a guessing/reading game. And it's really not very easy comparatively.
In addition for example, as snake you have a guaranteed Ftilt on the normal 29 frame landing, but if you Ftilt him while he's in the air only the first hit will connect and MK will be knocked away.
I'd like to too... one with MK and one without.Two problems with this:
- If the characters focus so much on beating MK, what happens to the rest of their matchup research? Stagnation, that's what. Also, that 'at some point' might not have been reached yet, or MK could be vastly closer than any other character.
- Comparing a data set to another data set that includes the first is actually pretty silly. I'd like to see two six-month charts, side by side, to view the actual change in his dominance.
It's perfectly likely that they should use MK. I was at a tournament this weekend but it only had 21 people, so not a huge amount of money. My teammate and I were the only MK mains that showed up, so we decided to play non-MK. I went Fox and Donkey Kong and got 4th! :DMK is the best character. I don't think anybody's stupid enough to debate this. Thus, by your logic, it's perfectly likely the best players use MK.
There are only so many options to explore, and defeating MK is a focal point of virtually any character's community.
I've seen from my own boards that the first discussion ever discussed is MK, whether it be from the matchup thread, or "How to Overcome X Move".
I was simply adding onto this small discussion. What you did was pretty pointless, considering that those options will rarely happen in tournaments, if ever.Sonics ran a "how to beat tornado" thread once.
Despite all the discussion and possible options that we DO have, we never did find a move that would outright stop it.
Our only reasonable option is to run.
Ok, here we go:
Detailed explanation of proposal: Temp ban of metaknight.
We will divide the year into two sections, a six-month interval in length for each section. One interval will have Metaknight banned from tourney play, and another interval with Metaknight in play. The reason why it is a six-month interval are for these reasons:
1) If the time interval is shorter, player can simply wait out until the testing is finished. By making it 6 months of testing continuously , not only does that give us enough time to actually see a chance in the meta game, it also disables players from just simply “waiting until it’s done”
2) The time interval gives enough time for a single person to enter enough tourneys where the game can drastically change. It was suggested that if we can do it for 3-4 months instead of six months, and it was turned down because of this reason:
On average, a tournament is held on Saturdays. There are 4 Saturdays in a month. By doing this calculation for six months, a single person can have an approximate total of 24 tournament entries. Now, if you want to do fewer months, you subtract 4 for every month you want eliminated, so if you want the interval to be 3 months, you take 24-12 and you only get 12 tournaments, and for 4 months, you only get 16. There is a huge mathematical difference in these numbers. By taking off months, you limit the information that can be gained, the extra time to properly learn a high potential of a character, and the possible growth of a character overall.
3) By making it ½ a year of testing, you allow players to gain more experience with other characters, and by doing that, they can possibly place better in tournaments. This will help the results overall for logging them.
How to log the information
Each month we make a thread on Smashboards in the tactical section (or one major thread with all the information gathered) and we take information that happen within each month and break it down into sections:
1) Character Usage
2) Overall attendance
3) Character Development
4) player reactions in terms of how he feels at the state where he/she is in about how the meta game
The reason why I have this combination of choice is because it splits factual hand-put data, with opinion based emotion about a situation. The meta game is not just based on the characters, but how the players feel toward the characters. Within the 6 months, we can take note on how a character has grown or has been crippled, and add that to overall data. In 6 months, we can take the overall character usage and attendance, and see how a character grew within that time. By doing this monthly, we can compare data over time as well as a persons’ opinion about this situation, and see how it changes within the 6 months.
We will keep track of placings by how Ankoku does it. Here are the requirements:
MAKE SURE IT WAS AT LEAST 13 PEOPLE IN THE TOURNAMENT
Number of entrants
Entry fee
Where it was (what state it was in, or something)
Top 16, with character main for each of the top 16
Link to tournament page or results page
(I made it top 16. If there is less, just post them all with the format above. No listing under 13 will be accepted.)
We would first need someone to keep log on this thread, with this information. I do not want to Force it on Ankoku if this proposal passes through, unless he is willing to do it by his own free will.
A note of change: This thread needs to gather information other than just people posting results in it. This needs to be done because it can skew the information and make it inaccurate. We need every possible tournament logged with correct results from it at all times. The way we can do this is 2-4 people from each region can search and post all the tournament results possible. The people who are doing this need to be trust worthy and handpicked so nothing is left out. (I know it is a lot of work, but people can possibly mess up information, this of course, does not limit normal players from posting their own results)
When all of the information is gathered, we can then determine if Metaknight is ban worthy or not. At this time, we can possibly come up with a definition of what meets the requirements for a ban in brawl, and stick to it.
I hope that this is clear, understandable, and reasonable.
OS, if you agree with this, please post this in the BBR and attempt to get their approval with it. If the BBR will accept this proposal, it will be a lot easier to manage everything. Changes can be made too, so try to compromise if anything xD. (Only if it is reasonable and has a good explanation for doing so, but of course, I do not have to tell you this. Your OS, you know already lol.)
Remember ur not supposed to quote long post it's redundant.
yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for itWhy is he letting you suck him up?
Why is he letting you pivot grab him?
Why is he so close to let you grab it?
Why would he be stupid enough to run into your smash?
RANDOM CHANCE GO!
Why is he so close?
Why is he allowing you time to Utilt him?
Wait why is he trying to sit himself on your head?
Why is he so low?
Why is he running into the Fair?
Why is he letting you Dair him?
So can Sonic. WOOHOO THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON!
SONIC FOR TOP TIER!
SHOOP DA WHOOP!
Wis he standing still?
LOL
See? HE AGREES WITH ME!
Let's assume the DDD can "get better."yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
Don't you know, Tommy? MK mains all have 1 frame reaction times, therefore they can ALWAYS REACT!yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
Kinda what I've been thinking about throughout this whole thread.Will everyone stop bickering about stuff that's unimportant?
If the MK player can beat the DDD player by spamming tornado(where there are clear options for mixup for the DDD to use), DDD should lose. XDLet's assume the DDD can "get better."![]()
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.Two problems with this:
- If the characters focus so much on beating MK, what happens to the rest of their matchup research?
I seriously doubt that. Brawl just isn't deep enough that we should see his growth increase at this rate especially considering that other characters are studying him closely.Stagnation, that's what. Also, that 'at some point' might not have been reached yet, or MK could be vastly closer than any other character.
Its really not hard to imagine what happens if the data were broken up differently. Lets assume it was a twelve month period for ease. If he was 2.5x better than Snake in the the 13 month period and 3x better than Snake in the 6 month period (just using easy numbers here). Then on average he should have been 2x better than Snake in the first 6 month period. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it would go.- Comparing a data set to another data set that includes the first is actually pretty silly. I'd like to see two six-month charts, side by side, to view the actual change in his dominance.
Well I believe you were arguing that MK's dominance was mostly a result of a hyper advanced metagame rather than MK being as far above the others as the data shows.MK is the best character. I don't think anybody's stupid enough to debate this. Thus, by your logic, it's perfectly likely the best players use MK.
I like that picture because the cat in the back ground looks like Hitler. Bricks have been ****.
I'm arguing that the notion that all of the data being attributed to MK simply being a better character is silly because of the other factors I've mentioned.I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
I seriously doubt that. Brawl just isn't deep enough that we should see his growth increase at this rate especially considering that other characters are studying him closely.
.
Its really not hard to imagine what happens if the data were broken up differently. Lets assume it was a twelve month period for ease. If he was 2.5x better than Snake in the the 13 month period and 3x better than Snake in the 6 month period (just using easy numbers here). Then on average he should have been 2x better than Snake in the first 6 month period. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it would go.
Well I believe you were arguing that MK's dominance was mostly a result of a hyper advanced metagame rather than MK being as far above the others as the data shows.
@Shadowlink: Basically, you're saying that the MK will never actually approach you w/ the tornado, because if he does, than you can hit him out of it...you aren't making much sense.
I mean, I know you're trying to say that he'll only nado when you can't punish him, but that would mean he's never nado unless you tripped or did something like whiff a smash attack w/ large cooldown time, which, if we're answering like you, "why are you putting yourself in lag w/ that?" or "RANDOM CHANCE O!" Even if you do get hit, SDIing up and punishing him isn't *that* hard (I don't play very often, even less against MKs that nado, and I still can do it when I get caught)
Stop trolling Atomsk.Lolz you are a ****ing moron if you believe none of those will happen.
*facedesk*LOL you're dumb as hell, do you even play this game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUBh4AJkVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzH-3EWYQSA
edit:
Now I want you to count the number of "random tornados", and tally up the number that connect, then the number that dont connect, and get punished. Im sure the results will surprise you...
By your logic, everything in the game is punishable .yes, lets assume all mk mains always choose the right answer all of the time where it shows there clearly is a mixup for it
So if we could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that MK as a character was a much more prominent attribute to his dominance than the amount of players or skill of players, would you switch to pro-ban?I'm arguing that the notion that all of the data being attributed to MK simply being a better character is silly because of the other factors I've mentioned.
People will soon learn that this way of getting information is dominate. Speculating the situation on terms of what "might" happen will not state what "will happen" which is what I keep saying over and over again. Arguing what could happen is not the same as what will happen. The only real way to test what will happen is when you put the situation at hand.
I suggest AN.And how the hell will you guys decide on where to do this temp ban?
The united states would be the designated region.And how the hell will you guys decide on where to do this temp ban?