Allrite, this will most likely become a tldr post, but here's my insights everyone.. thanks for waiting etc.. on everything ^^; I'll try to keep it short, (even though it won't be)
imo yoshi is low mid ( PAL tho ), although I prob wouldnt place him there until his metagame progresses more.
imo he wins / even vs jiggs ( matchup is ~80-20 on KJ64 )
even vs fox ( some think this is very hard matchup, I honestly cant see why, fox nair is beaten by alot of yoshis moves and yoshi has several 0 deaths and easy edgeguards and fox cant even upthrow uair without getting nair / uaired into death combo lols )
loses vs falco
loses slightly vs sheik, marth , peach ( even if kj64 is on ).
loses vs falcon.
even or loses slightly vs ics ( 1 dtilt and nana is dead basicly + platform camping )
ill gladly explain more on whatever matchup u want ;D
oh and btw Yoshi has BY FAR the best ledge game in the game, projectiles that cover tons and combos into all yoshi attacks and shield pressures, 100% invis, etc etc .
**** writing on iphone is hard ;/
Sadly, I'd want to play Yoshi on PAL, because I know he's WAY better in PAL, however I play him in NTSC, and there are VERY notable differences w/Yoshi's matchups, and that is how this forum is basing (from what I understand at least)
Yoshi vs Puff - I actually "slightly" agree with you believe it or not.. I do NOT believe the 80/20 part, but I've experienced this MU hands on, and my Yoshi's done fairly well in this MU.. sadly however, campy style of play must be initiated to even keep up with this up to date metagame.. Yoshi's F-smash/U-smash, do suprisingly well here, as both have excellent priority, and Jiggs has it a bit rough to keep up w/Yoshi (platforms) ECE's work well for distance/damage. Yoshi usually doesn't need to fear rest or initial combos until after 100+ since Yoshi can absorb the damage received in most cases..
However even with all this, the ladder can come into play and Jiggs can play campy, defensive here...
Besides ECE, I don't know anything that is safe enough to throw out vs a camping Jiggs.. Yoshi obviously doesn't have a move he can exactly run in with, that he won't get punished for upon missing, as Yoshi needs to bait and make Jiggs bite, even then, with Jiggs wall of priority, most cases Yoshi will be receiving damage anyway, and when it comes down to it.. I can't see myself ever winning this MU, if I stray too far away from damage/stocks from the Jiggs... On top of that Yoshi entire game in itself is a risk/reward system...being able to play w/such consistency/accuracy isn't a walk in the park, as "frustration/eagerness and similar emotions begin to take fruition, as this MU wages on..having to know what you can/cannot challenge since losing challenges, rid of Yoshi's main recovery method... deciding what attacks you will take and receive.. and even winning exchanges only get minimum results (in terms of damage given to taken ratio) This exchange alone Yoshi has to deal with in EVERY MU, because of his lack for a second jump.. My final thoughts "as of now" on this MU are Jiggs 60/40 Yoshi.. and I could be wrong here.. but I honestly think this is pretty good for such a "garbage" character right?
The thing is, I dont really understand why it would be hard for yoshi.
Yoshi doesnt get comboed, cant be killed easily at all, doesnt get rushed down, and doesnt get camped. Edgeguarding Yoshi doesnt even work before bair starts to break and even then it only adds percent... ( shine doesnt break armor and usually equals counter gimp ).
fox = pew pew pew => yoshi taking edge if he really doesnt wanna take dmg .
Fox dash dance game vs yoshi is not that hard either. Yoshi can cc / dj cc any nair.
Yoshis dashattack wins or trades with fox nair, so does most of his tilts. ( full jump nair sucks balls for fox ofc ).
Yoshi punishes sooo much harder than fox imo, I usually do several 0 to death combos that only involve 1 or 2 reads ( not dtilt gimps obv ). Example:
Fair -> Nair -> Grab ( buffered dthrow ) -> tech chase if he gets DI ( prob not if buffered ) , otherwise uair strings into nair if he dis away or down b kill if he doesnt.
On platform stages I usually just end uair strings into fair into just dsmashing their tech ( covers all options ofc ) .
Fox punish is usually grab => uthrow => bair if yoshi misses DI, otherwise he can just trade, uair doesnt combo ( nair between hits ).
Note that this is Pal and yoshis is heavier and his smashes are 1-2 % stronger and fox is heavily nerfed.
Which means fox usually dies at waaay lower percents than Yoshi.
Oh and about Yoshis shield, getting stuck in shield is horrible for anyone vs fox and shouldnt happen that often with yoshi cause of speed + cc. And while yoshi cant shieldgrab he also can lightshield punish shine grab and normal shieldpressure.
tl:dr
Yoshi punishes harder, cant be camped, dies later, cant be gimped, does okay in dash dance game
Again, I would really like to hear others opinions on why this is hard, This is my most played matchup too and I dont see ANY big problems at all ;>
Yoshi vs Fox - I've read your defense, and sadly you need to know from what I understand, we are going off of NTSC, even then many arguments you stated, have many drawbacks... The ones I've Underlined in your post are what i'm going to work off of..
Yoshi CAN be comboed, he CAN be killed easily, he CAN get rushed down, and he MOST DEFINATELY, can be camped... Cool Fox, shoots his laser, Ok Yoshi grabs the edge, Fox retreats and continues to shoot lasers... What move can Yoshi POSSIBLY do... from the edge to hit Fox? ECE's? When Yoshi "eventually" comes up.. Fox has the ability to retreat and repeat this process over, and over again.. on stage even, what's Yoshi gonna do to avoid multiple laser camping by a Fox? in this MU, Yoshi needs to be the aggressor, and pulling that off is a miracle in itself..to be able to catch a campy like Fox...
Ok you stated above that Yoshi's "dash attack" can trade with Fox's "Nair" I have absolutely no idea why ANY Yoshi would want/desire this trade... it spells disaster on the winning AND losing side of the trade anyway.. Simple Fox, shield pressure, Drill>shine/Nair/shine..etc.. Yoshi will receive way more damage then he'd be giving anyway to Fox with this method.. and even if the "dash attack" would connect... Yoshi's dash attack is....not one of his better moves (only good for high % knockback) Cool you deal what 7-8% damage, and now your stuck in your dash animation... so Fox can Upsmash>Uair, or Drill>shine>grab>combo, many multiples of combinations.. that all in all Yoshi would be losing a 50%+ probable damage given to taken ratio..and would now need to find a way to land safely w/o using his jump/finding the correct move to challenge/counter Fox's combos with? No thanks..
Fox does enough of this in this MU with his common shield pressure.
Yoshi punishes fairly well, I agree with you.. but he does not punish harder than Fox by any means... Fox has so many more tools at his disposal, a better grab game, easier combo starters/launchers, and better finishing moves as well.. Yoshi's Fair>Nair>Grab>buffer D-throw, etc, is standard, top level Yoshi play.. We've all seen Fumi/myself do this, and that's one possible situation... since that entire combo requires fox to be at a specified low % anyway.
Getting stuck in shield vs a Fox, is very common, and will happen! Yoshi's inability to jump OoS (bar supershielding) combined w/Fox's overall shield pressure will result in multiple occasions..being caught in shield.. I mean unless you want to take all that 40+ damage that Fox will do and attempt to either superShield/counter.. or DJ CC, the damage and countermeasure with your own combo, but even then, You're losing too much damage too many times just to get a "chance" at a potential combo on Fox..
Honestly, I pride myself/trust myself on my ability to play characters with my Yoshi/Mewtwo as does all of AZ. If there were any character in the game to fight/defeat... Fox would be one heck of a feat... I have absoultely no "idea' how i'd be able to defeat a Fox such as "Jman" who could play campy, etc... or an overaggressive technical Fox.. I mean there are so many styles, that I just wouldn't know how to properly fight... The only time I can imagine, me winning vs Fox, is if I were obviously just the better player, Fox has so many tools in his arsenal..
Now granted, I'm not saying I don't think this MU is unwinnable, or that I can never do it.. (you all should know AZ by now, we believe anything's possible
) just it's just not very likely at all, but I'd never say that... I believe in my character/abilities.. and i'll let that push me/motivate me.. and hopefully success can come out of it..
lmao Yoshi.
kind of has weird attacks though...and no one really uses it because it's an ugly ***.
Yoshi's not ugly *cries*
so much wrong theorycrafting
yoshi gets gimped so easily by fox and jiggs to the point it severely affects the matchup
he also gets camped, and can't deal with it
characters that pressure? what oos options? lmao goodbye stock
I wouldn't say "easily" by Fox, but if Yoshi challenges the wrong move(s) and loses his jump, Yoshi has little chance to recover w/a mere airdodge..
Yoshi's OoS options are indeed very limited..this is where you need to decide, what damage you will absorb, and how you will give it back, more if possible..this method of thinking is just unique, knowing with Yoshi, you know you have to tell/ask yourself, how much damage do you want to let him have, just to have a chance to deal "more" damage back to him..this alone is a unique mindset..
I was going to start posting in reference to this yoshi stuff... then I realized I was wasting my time. I know yoshi isn't as terrible as everyone thinks, but I'm hard pressed to convince myself this isn't trolling. Let Vman speak though... he plays yoshi legitimately, and I'm sure he would disagree with the notion that fox vs yoshi is even. If he agrees... I've lost respect for yoshi players.
haha, DruggedFox, you know I love you...
, and even me being as biased as I can get, and support favoritism towards my character etc.... even I can be serious, give out facts.. etc.. (I even wanted to be an MBR to support Yoshi, MU's in any way I could because of AZ's unique set of players, and I feel like I could contribute, at the same time but I understand you must be chosen) From what I've experienced as them vs Highly notable players such as Forward, Taj, Axe, GG7, and all of AZ's finest.. I do indeed "strongly disagree" that the MU is 50/50.. with everything I've stated above.. if I had to make an estimate.. it'd be around 70/30 - 80/20.. IMO this alongside, sheik is arguably Yoshi's hardest MU's in NTSC.
lol...yoshi is bad
if axe was actually trying to exploit yoshi's weaknesses instead of juss having fun i'm sure that match would have turned out differently
same with any yoshi match
please tell me what is your safe approach
what openings do you have to attack
how is your juggling
how is your recovery
how much reach do you have
he's lacking
if you want to play him by all means but he is missing some seriously necessary options
Axe, and I do indeed have alot of "fun" with matches.. this is actually one of the first times Axe has initially played this MU, and we all know the "aggressive" nature of Axe's playstyle... Indeed the match could've turned out differently, along with any Yoshi match indeed.. this match, I nearly used his "overaggressiveness" and tried to use it against him, and unless you've seen the MU before..I just don't think "everyone's gonna know it" If were going by this logic.. Axe's Pikachu would've never beaten any of the amazing players he's beaten because that player "didn't try to exploit Pikachu's weaknesses, etc... yet he continues to do it... I understand where you're coming from.. I just feel a little insulted as a player..
I'm not so sure about the Fox stuff. But the Yoshi vs Puff stuff sounds legit. I'd like to see someone counter pick Jigs with Yoshi.
I honestly think I'd attempt Yoshi on Jigglypuff if it came down to it in tourney! I'd hope majority of the Jigglypuff players don't know how to fight Yoshi! that'd be cool ^^
God dammit Yoshi is the new Zelda isn't he.
No
, I just want people to know, and goal is to not have Yoshi in "garbage tier" it's a bit painful to see.. and like i've/Axe, have stated before.. I don't really think any character is "pure garbage" we as a community just lack the players with the motivation/drive to want to push them... (everyone should move to AZ that would be sooo cool) <33
Yoshi>G&W>Roy <3 fixed ^^;
<33 I actually like G&W and Roy.. so how about Yoshi = Roy = G&W..?
Allrite.. If i missed anything.. i'm sorry.. I'll try to add the the other high/top tier MU's but this post took a bit as it is... If I offended anybody w/anything I've said i'm sorry.. Im just trying to show/prove Yoshi's worthiness you know.. I'm not trying to say I can be you know... another Axe.. =p (of course I'm gonna try) but I'm merely tryin to show that Yoshi, is a character with unexplored potential...
well anyway I love you all! <33 and thanks... ^^ <33 Yoshi <33
