Official MBR Tier List

[theunabletable]

The glitch is defined as a player-controlled master hand. Only the third slot can access it.

The glitch is defined as such by whom?

No you can't because the only way to win against him is to time him out while he's at higher percent.

Then LRAStart with 1 second left, or take the freeze.

The game freezing and requiring you to just press the power button and spend half a minute turning it back on is not enough to fully ban him, imo.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The glitch is defined as such by whom?

The effect is discrete therefore they have distinct if related effects.

What you're doing is equating somebody having ownership of something, with somebody else having ownership of it, yes they relie on the concept of ownership, but me having 5 million dollars and my next-door neighbor having 5 million dollars is massively different.


Equating a player-controlled hand and a non-player controlled hand is just as ridiculous.

Then LRAStart with 1 second left, or take the freeze.

1 second left is enough time to KO.

The game freezing and requiring you to just press the power button and spend half a minute turning it back on is not enough to fully ban him, imo.

It's more the instability of the character itself, and furthermore the practical considerations which must be accounted for in tournament play, extra time on that end eats more of the tournament's scheduled time.

 

[theunabletable]

1 second left is enough time to KO.

Yeah it is. Which is why taking the freeze is the all-around best thing to do.

It's more the instability of the character itself

It's not like it randomly freezes (afaik). We know it will freeze at the results screen and nothing further happens. Turn the system back on and you're good again.

extra time on that end eats more of the tournament's scheduled time.

The 30-45 seconds it takes to set back up again is negligible.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think that only one player can control the Hand kills his ability to be a character.

 

[theunabletable]

How so? If you're not 3rd player, don't pick him, if you do you auto lose (which you would anyways).

 

[MarioMariox2]

1 second left is enough time to KO.

Event: "Seconds, anyone?" Can be done in like 0:00:75 and possibly below.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Looks like your arguments are diminishing. All you have left is the freeze and the unfairness of only one player being able to use him.

Riddle me this, is it unfair that only one player can use an auto-lose character? Not even close.
And as we have stated time and time again, LRA-START and just restarting the wii/cube are easy enough to do, and don't warrant a ban.

And if the MH player was about to kill in the last second and he failed, tough luck to him.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I suppose part of my distaste for the character is that while he's an auto-loss character, he absolutely has to be stalled out. I don't see why someone would want a gigantic, non-interactive time-suck to be part of the game.

And I actually enjoy the idea of Master Hand dittos. If someone *****-moves me by picking him, trying to be cute and stall a whole game out because they think it would be funny or it's a clever IRL troll attempt, I would love to counter by picking Master Hand myself and at least not have to worry about tech skill failure or the stage screwing me out of a game or something; I can just faceroll, knowing I can never die. And so long as I produce the same 999% as him, I don't lose. Sounds good to me.

 

[Blackshadow]

It's stalling. There is nothing you can do to prevent MH stalling. MH as a character is as legal as the Peach Bomber or the Rising Pound.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Looks like your arguments are diminishing. All you have left is the freeze and the unfairness of only one player being able to use him.

Riddle me this, is it unfair that only one player can use an auto-lose character? Not even close.
And as we have stated time and time again, LRA-START and just restarting the wii/cube are easy enough to do, and don't warrant a ban.

And if the MH player was about to kill in the last second and he failed, tough luck to him.

The walls of text are only diminishing because there were fewer objections (from both sides).


Again, he literally falls into the category of immediately banworthy glitch, lack of equal access again, play to win which you referenced, SPECIFICALLY calls bans in those cases warranted. In fact the case is pretty much literally quoted from the book.


Given some outside redeeming factor, it would be worthwhile to overlook the fact that he's immediately banworthy and put some mechanism in place to deal with the lack of access (like what was needed for Brawl for port priority), but he gives no incentive to be that intrusive because he's a character totally without merit, and in fact if not for his issues with equal access I half expected him to become a sample case for a new universal criteria similar to the one that caused IC's stage to be banned.


Why? He's unstable. Crashes at victory screen, and also my understanding is that he's prone to causing general crashes.

He's functionally a troll character that exists only to waste another player's time. For god's sake, you can only win by stalling, and once you lose a stock, he infinite stalls you to make it an auto-loss.

He doesn't function properly with stages, my initial understanding was that it was only two banned stages, and I'd appreciate confirmation either way, but still but my understanding is that those are some of the the few that he isn't untouchable.


He doesn't even seem to be available in all versions of the game, my understanding is that only a select few versions have the glitch as a possibility.


We must consider the TO, even though the TO should account for all matches being 8 minutes as a possibility, that and the extra time that the master had requires because of crashes can push a tournament over the edge. This especially becomes a problem assuming he isn't available in all versions because this means the TO has to have the versions which can utilize the glitch available for every match.


He simply adds no depth to the game by his inclusion.





No, he's immediately banworthy, and the variety of issues that accompany his inclusion as well as his lack of merit do not justify taking extraordinary measures to save him for competitive play.



So no, he's moved from borderline character to absolute textbook case of ban-worthiness, right next to Super Turbo Akuma. That's why I changed my position on this, because that information changes literally everything.

 

[theunabletable]

he absolutely has to be stalled out. I don't see why someone would want a gigantic, non-interactive time-suck to be part of the game.

It'll attract Brawl players lol

Why? He's unstable. Crashes at victory screen, and also my understanding is that he's prone to causing general crashes.

I've never experienced that.

He's functionally a troll character that exists only to waste another player's time. For god's sake, you can only win by stalling, and once you lose a stock, he infinite stalls you to make it an auto-loss.

I'll take my free win and won't complain about an 8 minute match.

He doesn't even seem to be available in all versions of the game, my understanding is that only a select few versions have the glitch as a possibility.

I don't remember reading that.

We must consider the TO, even though the TO should account for all matches being 8 minutes as a possibility, that and the extra time that the master had requires because of crashes can push a tournament over the edge. This especially becomes a problem assuming he isn't available in all versions because this means the TO has to have the versions which can utilize the glitch available for every match.

The amount of times people will take an auto-loss to waste 8 minutes and a reset is completely negligible. It is insanely unlikely that Master Hand being playable in tournaments would cause tourneys to take way longer.

He simply adds no depth to the game by his inclusion.

That logic is ridiculous. Who cares how much depth it adds to the game? Allowing ICs in Brawl to do an Fthrow pivot CG adds 0 depth to their metagame because a Bthrow CG is ALWAYS better, and thus 0 depth to the game itself; so by your logic we should ban Fthrow pivot CGs in Brawl for ICs because it doesn't add depth like MH.

The amount of depth something adds has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it should be banned.

So no, he's moved from borderline character to absolute textbook case of ban-worthiness, right next to Super Turbo Akuma. That's why I changed my position on this, because that information changes literally everything.

Except Super Turbo Akuma, from what I know of SF (which is extremely little, mind you), was insanely broken and was equal to auto-win.

MH is a joke and is auto-lose. Based on that, almost no one will ever pick him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

stuff

That's a straw man fallacy.

You ignored my actual point, that he qualifies as a case of something automatically ban-worthy (the equal access issue).



The other issues I brought up were an expansion of the idea, it is possible to figure out some way to create standardization to "patch" the issue, but never really deal with it, but there's no incentive to do so, because his legality adds only negatives.



edit: Just found out, you can do teams with him, crashes it at start-up.

 

[theunabletable]

You ignored my actual point, that he qualifies as a case of something automatically ban-worthy (the equal access issue).

Your "actual" point? So everything that I responded to (which you didn't respond to in your last post, as well) was just meaningless fluff?

And in what way was it a strawman? I responded to one of your points by saying I never experienced the freezing you've mentioned. Actually considering you said: "Why? He's unstable. Crashes at victory screen, and also my understanding is that he's prone to causing general crashes." it'd be quite natural for me to assume that that was your main point.

Sirlin's book, while very important and good, is not automatically the go-to for everything ever in competitive video gaming. Actually that would be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_Authority

Sirlin's book may be influential and good, but that doesn't make it correct on a subject so, well, subjective. Just because Sirlin says that lack of equal access means insta-ban (and by that logic we should ban Snake dittos, as port 4 has the advantage (slight, but it's an advantage nonetheless)), does not mean that we should ban Master Hand.

Sure port 3 has the advantage in Master Hand dittos, however wouldn't it be an awful double standard to ban MH based purely on that, and NOT ban Snake dittos because the person in Snake dittos with the higher port has the advantage? I mean if THAT was your main point, it's probably the worst out of all of them.

Automatically ban-worthy is incredibly subjective and arbitrary. Everyone can be MH on any slot, 3rd slot, however, is the best.

Same thing with Snake, 4th slot is always best in just the same way.

edit: Just found out, you can do teams with him, crashes it at start-up.

Then you get DQ'd for stalling for using him in teams.

I'm not going to be back to respond 'til late-ish tomorrow.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sirlin's book, while very important and good, is not automatically the go-to for everything ever in competitive video gaming.

Automatically ban-worthy is incredibly subjective and arbitrary. Everyone can be MH on any slot, 3rd slot, however, is the best.

The thing is it's totally defensible, moreso a good idea.


Games should be decided within the context of the game itself, not outside. Even if you're fighting for a disadvantage, the simple fact that a factor that could potentially decide the winner or loser on the basis of it's effect on the game itself is justification for it being warranted for a ban.


This is the same reason why you are not allowed to kick your opponent in the shins or mess with their controllers in-game, out of game interference is not allowed.

Same thing with Snake, 4th slot is always best in just the same way.

The thing is, it's not just snake, it's everybody, Snake's just the only character the particular advantage is universal, so snake himself isn't the issue at all, banning him would only leave the far larger issue. It's controller port advantages in general.


In a perfect world, we would ban every single one, but this is not a perfect world.


There's nothing you activate, only subtle changes to the way characters interact in a variety of ways (there may be methods to take advantage of this, but they don't address the actual problem, same as with banning snake).

This means that banning controller port advantages is neither discrete nor enforceable, it's almost impossible to detect and impossible for players to avoid taking advantage of.




So, you're right, valid point, but the difference is, we CAN'T ban it in Brawl, but in melee we can, so we should.



TL;DR: Port advantage should be banned, but it's ever-present, and is impossible to ban in practice. On the other hand, the master hand is not.

 

[X1-12]

Only one player can control master hand per game, I don't care how unlikey this is that both players will pick him but nonetheless, he is bannable because of this


that is all, talk about how marth/falco/fox/insert character here is broken or something

 

[Tamoo]

Agrees

A character only needs one massive flaw in order to be considered ban worthy, the fact that he can only be controlled by one character negates all other points, no matter how significant or insignificant. whether he is autowin or autolose is totally irrelevant to this respect.

Falco is so gay

also peach > puff

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol. I cannot believe this is being discussed right now.

I tried to end it early.

I just cant see how

not being able to die, being controlled by only player 3, game freeze

isnt enough to exclude him as a playable character in tourney. Not ban him just he shouldnt even be considered.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Falco is so gay

also peach > puff

Rest>peach, period.

 

[Siglemic]

are you guys ********

master hand is not a character

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I tried to end it early.

I just cant see how

not being able to die, being controlled by only player 3, game freeze

isnt enough to exclude him as a playable character in tourney. Not ban him just he shouldnt even be considered.

i tried to end it early too.

its called not posting your opinion and hope nobody else gets trolled for ~5 pages.

can we all go back to being not ******** now?

 

[MarioMariox2]

Rest>peach, period.

Knee > Rest > Peach

 

[dch111]

Is this really the final tier list (no more changes ever)?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Knee > Rest > Peach

Play me at pound 4 and we'll see about that.

 

[hungrybox]

Lol.

**** Master Hand.

Let's work on banning Jigglypuff instead.

 

[x After Dawn x]

are you guys ********

master hand is not a character

you do realize there's a glitch in the character select screen to be able to play as master hand, right?

or are you just spewing nonsense without backing up what you're saying?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

master hand is not a character, he is able to be played because of a glitch in character selection.

if he was an legitimate playable character, he would have his own icon in the character select screen.

 

[KAOSTAR]

you do realize there's a glitch in the character select screen to be able to play as master hand, right?

or are you just spewing nonsense without backing up what you're saying?

He probably does. He is probably sarcastically implying that master hand differs greatly from every other character in the game and he is drastically down playing his abilities by saying he isnt even a character. ie hes just that bad.

 

[x After Dawn x]

the fact that some people in this community are even debating whether or not he should be tourney legal makes me cry.

 

[pockyD]

densest mother****er around

 

[Grim Tuesday]

All people who are wondering why it should be debated are idiots. Of course it should be debated, as of now he isn't banned yet many people believe he should be banned, I believe theyc all that a debate. If you don't want it debated and would rather just go back to useless discussion about how Fox/Falco/Marth are pro then leave him how he is, unbanned.

Oh and for those who don't agree with me that he is unbanned, no rule in recommended ruleset specifically or otherwise says he is banned, if you want him banned at your own tourney then make sure you put it on the ruleset!

 

[adumbrodeus]

All people who are wondering why it should be debated are idiots. Of course it should be debated, as of now he isn't banned yet many people believe he should be banned, I believe theyc all that a debate. If you don't want it debated and would rather just go back to useless discussion about how Fox/Falco/Marth are pro then leave him how he is, unbanned.

Actually, I wouldn't be so sure.

Remember, we're talking about something which at it's face looks like auto-ban, but then gets a little more complicated.


But in the end is textbook "what should be banned".



That said, it looks like a very thing to answer, ban him, it only starts getting complicated when you look into it.

Oh and for those who don't agree with me that he is unbanned, no rule in recommended ruleset specifically or otherwise says he is banned, if you want him banned at your own tourney then make sure you put it on the ruleset!

Yes, but it should be.

 

[hungrybox]

Knee > Rest > Peach

The Knee is so electrifying.

 

[KAOSTAR]

densest mother****er around

Shhh! Secret identity. Unwarranted personal attack man.

 

[TresChikon]

The Knee is so electrifying.

But rest gets me so fired up!

 

[MarioMariox2]

But rest gets me so fired up!

This is what it all comes down to. Would you prefer 10,000 volts from a knee to one's face, or a puffball igniting someone in flames through sleep?

 

[x After Dawn x]

somebody else posted this earlier

"Only one player can control master hand per game, I don't care how unlikey this is that both players will pick him but nonetheless, he is bannable because of this"

 

[X1-12]

somebody else posted this earlier

"Only one player can control master hand per game, I don't care how unlikey this is that both players will pick him but nonetheless, he is bannable because of this"

i said this :D
and i'm still right

All people who are wondering why it should be debated are idiots. Of course it should be debated, as of now he isn't banned yet many people believe he should be banned, I believe theyc all that a debate. If you don't want it debated and would rather just go back to useless discussion about how Fox/Falco/Marth are pro then leave him how he is, unbanned.

Oh and for those who don't agree with me that he is unbanned, no rule in recommended ruleset specifically or otherwise says he is banned, if you want him banned at your own tourney then make sure you put it on the ruleset!

just cause the TO didnt write it into the rules that MH is banned doesnt mean he can't ban him if he sees someone trying to play him he cant just change the rules, admittedly changing rules mid-tourney does look bad but i can't imagine anoyones gonna get angry at him or flame him on the boards for saying MH is banned. everyones just gonna think the guy trying to play MH is a prick

More to the point you saying this is a discussion well its not its just people pointlessly arguing something even though the battle has allready been lost (see above). all people are doing is spamming up the boards with useless crap that doesn't matter and no-one cares about. MH shouldn't be legal end of, don't bother trying to argue otherwise

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think I would prefer to argue about bottom teirs than this at least with there are a few important things to talk about. also falcon's manlyness needs to be back on the list it is way better than fox.

 

[KAOSTAR]

ummm anybody watch sports.

I really think this discussion is over.

I think a more promising discussion if ppl have nothing else to do. How about playing the master hand and his meta game.

Thats at least interesting and has more than one side to it. (banning was inevitable)

 

[X1-12]

M2 should be higher he ***** spacies (sorta)