leffen
Smash Champion
Yoshi for high tier.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Divinokage
Smash Legend
No, not even close.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Yeah that'd be like saying Ganondorf is high tier.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Sure, whatever you say.
Max?
Smash Champion
I really don't understand why people troll Kage.
Yoshi ****ing sucks btw.
Yoshi ****ing sucks btw.
Beat!
Smash Master
I'm definitely starting to think Yoshi is a solid mid tier.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Because I'm hated APPARENTLY where I've done nothing wrong to anyone, ****ing *******s.
leffen
Smash Champion
Yoshi is definitely better than Ganon in PAL, by ****ing miles.
The only reason Max and Kage thinks he suck is because they are hilariously biased.
The only reason Max and Kage thinks he suck is because they are hilariously biased.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
And you are not? Now that's funny.
leffen
Smash Champion
No, not really.
I know what the **** I'm talking about, I have experience and you don't.
I know what the **** I'm talking about, I have experience and you don't.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I'm definitely not losing to a low tier with Ganon, that's obvious. No one will be able to, not even you. Ya that's my bias, there's no way in hell that's happening.
Edit: Are you sure you want to do this again? =)
Edit: Are you sure you want to do this again? =)
leffen
Smash Champion
Yeah, I mean, losing to a LINK would suck so hard man.
Oh wait.
I'd love to not have to deal with stupid ignorant ****s that arent open to anything but hell, I'm talking to North americans so what the hell did I expect.
Oh wait.
I'd love to not have to deal with stupid ignorant ****s that arent open to anything but hell, I'm talking to North americans so what the hell did I expect.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
t h e c a l l o u t
No one actually hates you Kage, you're just easy to troll. We love you.
It's really easy.
No one actually hates you Kage, you're just easy to troll. We love you.
leffen
Smash Champion
LOL qft Strong bad.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Link is not even low tier, i don't even know what you are talking about.
YOU said Yoshi is high tier and you expect everyone to go zomg yes he is!? LOL. The burden of proof lies on you not everyone else.
Well I'd like to read about why Yoshi is good because I know I don't know anything about him lol.
Isn't he outranged by "better" characters? Does double jump super armor make Yoshi's recovery decent? How does he handle being camped? How does he handle CCs? How exactly does parrying work and how does it give room for Yoshi to grow? How does Yoshi's DJC compare to other characters that can perform DJCs? Oh and, how does Yoshi approach(if separate from how he handles camping)?
I'm also just curious if he's any good in teams.
Isn't he outranged by "better" characters? Does double jump super armor make Yoshi's recovery decent? How does he handle being camped? How does he handle CCs? How exactly does parrying work and how does it give room for Yoshi to grow? How does Yoshi's DJC compare to other characters that can perform DJCs? Oh and, how does Yoshi approach(if separate from how he handles camping)?
I'm also just curious if he's any good in teams.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
yoshi is trash
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
More Yoshi players made bracket at Pound 5 than Ganondorf, Link, and Luigi players combined tho.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Thats not true, mango counts as a link player if leffen counts as a yoshi player
john!
Smash Hero
it only took like 3 posts before leffen pulls out the "americans are stupid" card. the funny part is that he's talking to a canadian, and canada is far closer to european culture than usa culture. but i guess you have to be educated to know that.
have fun getting murdered by kage at the next big tourney, you piece of trash.
if you have the guts to show up, that is.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I wasn't at Pound 5, that's why.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Kage: Tournament results don't lie & don't factor in important players not attending. Step it up mang.
Leffen didn't attend Pound 5.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That still doesn't change the fact that Yoshi sucks unless you have better things to say?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
But tournament results
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
so ur obviously trolling now SB? to make a point i assume
Strife
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2011
- Messages
- 784
This is interesting, Yoshi may be comparable to Ganon afterall.
Are you sure Vectorman was using Yoshi and not Falco? I assume the answer is no, but were any vids recorded?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
I was there. He used Yoshi the majority of the time.
Sveet: Mostly, but it's usually the cited reason for why Puff has gone up so much in the past 3 years, so it should be valid when discussing Yoshi, though I'm being a bit facetious about it.
Sveet: Mostly, but it's usually the cited reason for why Puff has gone up so much in the past 3 years, so it should be valid when discussing Yoshi, though I'm being a bit facetious about it.
john!
Smash Hero
lol i derped on my post. time to edit...
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Its usually cited by dumb people...
I dont think anyone noteworthy really thinks X wins tournament therefore X is the best character
I dont think anyone noteworthy really thinks X wins tournament therefore X is the best character
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Not in such silly black and white terms, but I remember discussions in the 2008 tier list thread where Umbreon would explain why tournament results are a big factor in tier list creation.
Stevo
Smash Champion
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Lol Stevo, I told him already you can't mix those together, it doesn't work!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
leffen
Smash Champion
The thing is, if we were talking about spacies and you were from Cambodia, all you guys are going like:
"Spacies are really good"
"HELL NO I CAN CHAINGRAB SPACIES TO DEATH THEY CANNOT BE GOOD HEH"
"But they have unique pressure etc"
"THEY HAVE ONE WEAKNESS YOU CANNOT HAVE A WEAKNESS LOLOLOL AND YOU CAN SD EASILY I HAVE A WARRIOR SWORD HIHIHI"
This is basically what I have to endure if you replace "Spacies" with Yoshi and "0-to-death combos +being technically hard" with "not being able jump oos+ being weird".
Disclaimer: Before you throw away what I say as wrong, please realize how little you actually know about Yoshi and keep an open mind while you read this post. Thanks.
@PP. (not saying you said these things exactly btw, just answering general concerns)
"Yoshi gets outranged easily"
First off, he has really good range and some good priority in a few areas, for example, his Bair/Fair/Uair/Reverse Nair wins over Falco's/Fox's Nairs/Bairs with the right spacing and so his tilts/smashes all have extraordinary good priority.
The only ones he gets outranged by are really Marth, Sheik and Ganondorf. He has tons of way to get through their walls though, he has crazy mobility coupled with a being heavy, having a CC in the air, Parry that wins over every single hitting move in the game,a airgrab that has great range and priority (altho its semi useless on hit it still breaks their game plan) and he also has a great projectile.
Furthermore, Ganon, Sheik and Marth all suffer from their own problems:
Ganon and Sheik have extremely low mobility compared to Yoshi and their ground game is worse than his.
Marth has good mobility but very very weak attacks and is very vulnerable from below and his ground game is also inferior to Yoshi's.
"Yoshi has a bad recovery"
Yoshis recovery is VERY underrated, its THE BEST vs Fox, Sheik and Puff (its simply not gimpable unless the Yoshi messes up badly, missing sweetspot with spacie badly).
Getting rid of Yoshis double jump and gimping him before he regains it should basically never happen unless he is above 120%, where most characters just die anyway.
In 90% of cases when Yoshi is below 70%, any attempt at even racking up damage is usually punished very hard, its gotten to the point where I can just jump out and recover onstage for free kills whenever I face someone who doesnt just run to the otherside asap lol.
A common misconception is also that Falco can gimp him really easily ("omg yoshis recovery is so terrible Falco can shinegimp him!!11" is heard so often). This isnt the case at all.
Falco has no move that send Yoshi far and low offstage so he can just recover high, with his high air mobility and heaviness to protect him.
"Yoshi cannot handle camping"
Who the hell camps Yoshi? Yoshi way to quick for anyone to camp him, just like how noone camps CF or Fox. He can get through walls very easily and he can also platform camp/plank back very nicely.
What is parrying and how does it give him room to improve?
Parrying is when you "parry" a attack with the six first frames of his shield animation. Before Yoshi enters his egg he is 100% invincible (he cannot be grabbed etc, its the same type of invincibility you get when you respawn ) during which he can also jump out at any frame. When someone hits you during these six frames, they suffer hitlag ("freezelag") while you remain totally unaffected. No shield damage, nothing. This allows you to punish virtually any move. Since you also don't suffer any hitlag your timing is unaffected, meaning that you can try to parry->usmash something, and if you miss the parry your Upsmash will still come out.
Parrying allows Yoshi to counter a **** ton of moves in the game, and ANYTHING, as long as you predict it, is punishable. If Ganondorf is spacing a Fair and you know it, he will get heavily punished for it. If a Fox is controlling the stage with bairs and you know how he does it, it simply won't work against Yoshi. And if they know you are waiting for them to attack and do a empty, you will still have the advantage since your move will come out and catch them anyway.
It really gives him infinite potential to grow and the uses are endless. For example, when Shield pressuring with Double jump canceled Nairs he can parry after his lag to bait a grab. If they grab, then it will be "parried" and miss, if they don't they will still get another DJC'd nair on their shield.
Before I forget, Yoshi can also powershield projectiles with his Parry, and if you miss the powershield timing, you will in most cases just parry it anyway, so even his powershield is far superior to all other characters.
How does Yoshi's DJC compare to other characters that can perform DJCs? (&how he handles CC)?
Yoshis DJC the best by 9001 fkn miles. It has a CC, causes him to FF instantly but it also gives him options to float with his aerials. He can grab the edge instantly, Double jump land and turn around by using his DJ... noone else of the others even come close.
"How does Yoshi approach?"
Yoshi is kinda similiar to CF in that aspect, here are his main options:
-his Fair has long range, does a lot of damage and is safe on shield and CCsand leads to combos, (basically a Ganon Fair that combos)
-His bair has EXTREMELY low lag (It autocancels 3 frames after his last hitbox and it has IASA frames 8 frames after the last hitbox). Its used the same way as CF's Nair BUT, it does more damage, you can do a Double jump/instant waveland away/Nair right afterwards. Relatively safe against CC.
-You can nair, it has bad priority when you face them but if you do it backwards it basically has fox/falco nair priority. Pretty safe vs CC since it has low lag.
-Uair has enourmous priority and wins over everything (falco dair, marths dair etc) from below so going high usually sucks vs Yoshi.
-A air grab; if your opponent is shielding your approaches you can just grab him ;o It reaches far and has low lag. ***** CC.
-A great CC in the air and on the ground.
-A fast wavedash, a safe dtilt (that ***** CC), a high priority Ftilt and a good dash dance game.
-He can auto cancel from his double jump by DJCanceling a down air (autocancels on frame 15). This allows you to weave in and out with emptys much like jigglypuff.
Now, combine all of these with his crazy double jump mixups AND his waveland/platform mindgames...AND Parry that beats any attack and you have a pretty damn good approaching/neutral game.
Its extremely hard to do properly and that is exactly why he is so underrated, but its certainly possible.
@Teams: He is pretty solid in teams, he can hold stocks well and he does a lot of damage with his quick combos. He is really more of a supporter/tank though and I'm forced to play the carry when I play teams
so I haven't really found the time to try it out properly.
Sorry for this messy post but I hope it helps...
EDIT:@ John!: LOL you are ********. FIRST OFF, I said NORTH AMERICANS, not PPL FROM USA. Secondly, Canadians are NOT like europeans (lolol watch Epic meal time
) and for the love of god, Kage certainly isnt.
"Spacies are really good"
"HELL NO I CAN CHAINGRAB SPACIES TO DEATH THEY CANNOT BE GOOD HEH"
"But they have unique pressure etc"
"THEY HAVE ONE WEAKNESS YOU CANNOT HAVE A WEAKNESS LOLOLOL AND YOU CAN SD EASILY I HAVE A WARRIOR SWORD HIHIHI"
This is basically what I have to endure if you replace "Spacies" with Yoshi and "0-to-death combos +being technically hard" with "not being able jump oos+ being weird".
Disclaimer: Before you throw away what I say as wrong, please realize how little you actually know about Yoshi and keep an open mind while you read this post. Thanks.
@PP. (not saying you said these things exactly btw, just answering general concerns)
"Yoshi gets outranged easily"
First off, he has really good range and some good priority in a few areas, for example, his Bair/Fair/Uair/Reverse Nair wins over Falco's/Fox's Nairs/Bairs with the right spacing and so his tilts/smashes all have extraordinary good priority.
The only ones he gets outranged by are really Marth, Sheik and Ganondorf. He has tons of way to get through their walls though, he has crazy mobility coupled with a being heavy, having a CC in the air, Parry that wins over every single hitting move in the game,a airgrab that has great range and priority (altho its semi useless on hit it still breaks their game plan) and he also has a great projectile.
Furthermore, Ganon, Sheik and Marth all suffer from their own problems:
Ganon and Sheik have extremely low mobility compared to Yoshi and their ground game is worse than his.
Marth has good mobility but very very weak attacks and is very vulnerable from below and his ground game is also inferior to Yoshi's.
"Yoshi has a bad recovery"
Yoshis recovery is VERY underrated, its THE BEST vs Fox, Sheik and Puff (its simply not gimpable unless the Yoshi messes up badly, missing sweetspot with spacie badly).
Getting rid of Yoshis double jump and gimping him before he regains it should basically never happen unless he is above 120%, where most characters just die anyway.
In 90% of cases when Yoshi is below 70%, any attempt at even racking up damage is usually punished very hard, its gotten to the point where I can just jump out and recover onstage for free kills whenever I face someone who doesnt just run to the otherside asap lol.
A common misconception is also that Falco can gimp him really easily ("omg yoshis recovery is so terrible Falco can shinegimp him!!11" is heard so often). This isnt the case at all.
Falco has no move that send Yoshi far and low offstage so he can just recover high, with his high air mobility and heaviness to protect him.
"Yoshi cannot handle camping"
Who the hell camps Yoshi? Yoshi way to quick for anyone to camp him, just like how noone camps CF or Fox. He can get through walls very easily and he can also platform camp/plank back very nicely.
What is parrying and how does it give him room to improve?
Parrying is when you "parry" a attack with the six first frames of his shield animation. Before Yoshi enters his egg he is 100% invincible (he cannot be grabbed etc, its the same type of invincibility you get when you respawn ) during which he can also jump out at any frame. When someone hits you during these six frames, they suffer hitlag ("freezelag") while you remain totally unaffected. No shield damage, nothing. This allows you to punish virtually any move. Since you also don't suffer any hitlag your timing is unaffected, meaning that you can try to parry->usmash something, and if you miss the parry your Upsmash will still come out.
Parrying allows Yoshi to counter a **** ton of moves in the game, and ANYTHING, as long as you predict it, is punishable. If Ganondorf is spacing a Fair and you know it, he will get heavily punished for it. If a Fox is controlling the stage with bairs and you know how he does it, it simply won't work against Yoshi. And if they know you are waiting for them to attack and do a empty, you will still have the advantage since your move will come out and catch them anyway.
It really gives him infinite potential to grow and the uses are endless. For example, when Shield pressuring with Double jump canceled Nairs he can parry after his lag to bait a grab. If they grab, then it will be "parried" and miss, if they don't they will still get another DJC'd nair on their shield.
Before I forget, Yoshi can also powershield projectiles with his Parry, and if you miss the powershield timing, you will in most cases just parry it anyway, so even his powershield is far superior to all other characters.
How does Yoshi's DJC compare to other characters that can perform DJCs? (&how he handles CC)?
Yoshis DJC the best by 9001 fkn miles. It has a CC, causes him to FF instantly but it also gives him options to float with his aerials. He can grab the edge instantly, Double jump land and turn around by using his DJ... noone else of the others even come close.
"How does Yoshi approach?"
Yoshi is kinda similiar to CF in that aspect, here are his main options:
-his Fair has long range, does a lot of damage and is safe on shield and CCsand leads to combos, (basically a Ganon Fair that combos)
-His bair has EXTREMELY low lag (It autocancels 3 frames after his last hitbox and it has IASA frames 8 frames after the last hitbox). Its used the same way as CF's Nair BUT, it does more damage, you can do a Double jump/instant waveland away/Nair right afterwards. Relatively safe against CC.
-You can nair, it has bad priority when you face them but if you do it backwards it basically has fox/falco nair priority. Pretty safe vs CC since it has low lag.
-Uair has enourmous priority and wins over everything (falco dair, marths dair etc) from below so going high usually sucks vs Yoshi.
-A air grab; if your opponent is shielding your approaches you can just grab him ;o It reaches far and has low lag. ***** CC.
-A great CC in the air and on the ground.
-A fast wavedash, a safe dtilt (that ***** CC), a high priority Ftilt and a good dash dance game.
-He can auto cancel from his double jump by DJCanceling a down air (autocancels on frame 15). This allows you to weave in and out with emptys much like jigglypuff.
Now, combine all of these with his crazy double jump mixups AND his waveland/platform mindgames...AND Parry that beats any attack and you have a pretty damn good approaching/neutral game.
Its extremely hard to do properly and that is exactly why he is so underrated, but its certainly possible.
@Teams: He is pretty solid in teams, he can hold stocks well and he does a lot of damage with his quick combos. He is really more of a supporter/tank though and I'm forced to play the carry when I play teams
so I haven't really found the time to try it out properly.
Sorry for this messy post but I hope it helps...
EDIT:@ John!: LOL you are ********. FIRST OFF, I said NORTH AMERICANS, not PPL FROM USA. Secondly, Canadians are NOT like europeans (lolol watch Epic meal time
) and for the love of god, Kage certainly isnt.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ok now you explained why he's good, now explain why he sucks, I mean why he's limited.. because certainly if anyone could powershield consistently then obviously every character is underrated with their untapped potential. I think you are also underrating the other character's strength and weakness, what's going on in a real match is definitely different than what you are describing.
Extremely interesting post, Leffen. I'd ask more but I think I'll just chew on this for now. =)
Stevo
Smash Champion
I always thought Egglay was an underrated move. It might not lead to a lot of damage but it can completely throw somebody off their game. It is a great move to throw in every so often.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Oh, you guys are just so silly.
That was a well-organized post, Leffen (well, I think so). It gives one food for thought.
That was a well-organized post, Leffen (well, I think so). It gives one food for thought.