Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Fly_Amanita]

It would be convenient if you took this conversation to the social thread, or maybe the Peach boards.

 

[ShroudedOne]

It would be convenient if you took this conversation to the social thread, or maybe the Peach boards.

Awww. Why'd you have to go there, Fly?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It would be convenient if you took this conversation to the social thread, or maybe the Peach boards.

After reading a few pages I reliazed this is the social thread

Get with the times, fly!

 

[Wake]

Awww. Why'd you have to go there, Fly?

because it would be best there, and you know it.

 

[makoforce]

This is the last tier list, ever. We've also decided that every character has reached their maximum potential and they've all finished development, so what you see is what you get.

really that sucks. Jiggs shouldnt be up there imo and sheik is #1 to me imo

 

[unknown522]

really that sucks. Jiggs shouldnt be up there imo and sheik is #1 to me imo

this is kk on unknown's account

that's nice. we in the MBR greatly value and take your opinion seriously. unfortunately, it contradicts the finalized tier list that we came up with so it's wrong and you should feel ashamed for thinking it.

 

[Wake]

KK's making a grab for power.

 

[unknown522]

lol, sounds like a cult

- the real unknown522

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

i cant tell if kk is trolling or not >.>

i seriously doubt this is the last tier list...

wasnt the 08 tier list supposedly the "final tier list" until the spacie/puff metagame advanced and pushed marth and sheik down into the obscurities of 4th and 5th place.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No this is the last tier list because the world ends in 2012 and the MBR can't possibly man up and get a list done before then

 

[ShroudedOne]

this is kk on unknown's account

that's nice. we in the MBR greatly value and take your opinion seriously. unfortunately, it contradicts the finalized tier list that we came up with so it's wrong and you should feel ashamed for thinking it.

You Canadians, you...

 

[The Star King]

i cant tell if kk is trolling or not >.>

i seriously doubt this is the last tier list...

wasnt the 08 tier list supposedly the "final tier list" until the spacie/puff metagame advanced and pushed marth and sheik down into the obscurities of 4th and 5th place.

He's pretty obviously joking >_____>

 

[KirbyKaze]

Silence, non-believer.

We of the MBR have spoken!

 

[Mew2King]

Really? Do I really need to mention all the awesome Foxes out there for you?

And about Jiggs, of course she's hard, that's exactly why you won't see her win much at all. If she's so good then why doesn't more people play her? Or is she not as good people make her out to be? I think it's the latter.



I think Falco beats her, I think Falcon beats her too.. I used to think Ganon beat her too but it's a bit Jiggs advantage due to better setups in general and easy edgeguarding... though it's still really close. As for reasonings for other characters I can't really say since I have no XP but at least I won't go off saying my opinions on things based on what I only saw.

Cuz she's extremely super boring to play as. Why are there so many falcons when falcon is like the 7th-9th best character in the game? (yes I believe he is 7th or worse).

A lot of Fox's that all try to win and get ***** in the end. I think Fox is just overrated, and used a lot because he's fun, everyone wants to try to be cool+technical, but I believe on a practical level fox is simply just overrated. I don't care about what he can do in perfect control, I care about what humans can do with him. It's almost melee's 10th anniversary, and I've yet to see any way he is the best character besides theory talk that never happens.

 

[metalxecutioner]

this list is very good.good job back room

 

[KirbyKaze]

this list is very good.good job back room

this is the only answer we should be hearing.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Tyranny at its least subtle.

I approve.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

man u call this tyranny, i am going to go make a unity tier list now

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

u messed up the joke, supposed to be rule set not tier list

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

u messed up the joke, supposed to be rule set not tier list

but that wouldn't make sense b/c this is the tier list thread. so i just changed the joke from rule set to tier list

edit: now i had to explain the joke so its not funny at all

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

but the unity people are just ****TOs

 

[ShroudedOne]

I say we create our own "URC" to un-ban Metaknight in Melee.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I say we create our own "URC" to un-ban Metaknight in Melee.

its all fun and games until we find out sakura (not sure if i spelled his name right) secretly put metaknight in melee and he is way to good

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I have looked over the Melee tier list, and I believe you need to recreate it. Sure, some people might say that the fact I have yet to play in a Melee tournament means I don't have the authority to talk about this, but I say it gives me a unique outside perspective that is clearly more accurate than yours.

So, please rethink the tier list, and replace it with this:

Spoiler

Thanks for listening.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk, i think sheik deserves to be a spot or two higher

 

[Wake]

I say we create our own "URC" to un-ban Metaknight in Melee.

We totally should.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

While were at it we can do a merged ruleset. Only legal stages are battlefield, final destination and pokemon stadium (1).


... and maybe brinstar if the *****espeach mains get the right to vote

 

[ShroudedOne]

No, Sveet, noooooo.

Bring back Mute City.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well i think i might start playing peach in tournament (if i ever make it to one)

so yeah, BRING ON THE CPS!!! I got fox for cruise and peach for mute. Me vs Mango GFs of Genesis 3....


edit- just so everyone knows, i defeated armada in the losers finals by foxing on cruise and on brinstar we both went peach and got in a powershield->FC nair infinite loop against each other resulting in a time out that I won at the end because somehow armada got hit by his own bomb that came onto the screen from when he was playing hbox in the winners bracket

 

[Sephirothxxx]

Great list, Fox and Falco definitely deserve the high tier ranking. Although, I honestly thought Roy would be a little higher...

 

[the_CAM_factor]

roy is pretty freaking awful, until vman proves otherwise i guess lol

 

[Wake]

Well i think i might start playing peach in tournament (if i ever make it to one)

so yeah, BRING ON THE CPS!!! I got fox for cruise and peach for mute. Me vs Mango GFs of Genesis 3....


edit- just so everyone knows, i defeated armada in the losers finals by foxing on cruise and on brinstar we both went peach and got in a powershield->FC nair infinite loop against each other resulting in a time out that I won at the end because somehow armada got hit by his own bomb that came onto the screen from when he was playing hbox in the winners bracket

hahahaha you're just too good Sveet.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thanks.


Mango just PM'd me asking to split in advance

 

[ShroudedOne]

Man. Sveet, I knew you were good, but...

Wow...I'm shocked. I might as well quit this game, and enter competitive Magical Drop III, a game I have a chance in (and that no one knows about).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh i didn't think you knew about that O_O

i helped code the engine as part of a freshman project. Whats it like these days?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I hope you're kidding?

In any case, it's fairly underground, as I understand it (the competitive scene). I'm pretty good at the game itself, and I like it a lot. Maybe i'll show up as a side event at more tournaments one day? (I highly doubt this...)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I was kidding, i guess i should have googled to see if it was a real thing first XD


I haven't written any games (unless u count gamer maker), and i don't really plan to. While games definitely had an influence in me becoming a programmer, i find game programming to be a waste of time. All the real decisions are made at the design level; what interests me about programming is the puzzle aspect. If I were to design a game it would probably be a platform fighter like melee, but with better stages and characters (obviously, easier said than done)


edit- on the game design note: melee is a really good game to learn from in terms of game design in the genre. There are so many things it got right and so many things it got wrong. CCing is too strong, aerials have too much lag, most move sets don't go together very well, wall teching/meteor canceling is too strong. Other than that, the mobility is insane and adds a lot of depth. There is much to be said about how perfect the DI is in the game, and how easily it can go wrong (see 64 and brawl at different poles).


I'd continue this rant but i've been up since 3am working on this proj due at midnight... and im still not done X_X

 

[ShroudedOne]

Aerials have too much lag? Even with L cancelling?

I can't really speak on CC'ing, cause I haven't analyzed it or anything...

What do you mean by movesets not going together?

Wall teching is too strong? As in, too easy to perform, or less likely to be punished? Same for meteor cancelling?

Feel free to answer these when your project is done (or not at all, I won't mind), I don't want to deter you with noob-ish questions.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I find melee's tiers to drop really fast. I mean, on the falco boards people were just trying to say which one of his moves was his worst... but found that every single one has a use either inside combos or for spacing. I mean, his uair was argued as one of his worst and thats still a reliable kill move. Compare that to a character just slightly further down the list... say peach. How useful are sideb, neutralb, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, usmash... i mean every once in a while people can throw them in as a "o_O" move but generally they suck (maybe the smashes are somewhat useful). Going further down the list you find characters that have like 1 or 2 useful moves, period. Some really don't have any. Just imagine a game where everyone had a full moveset worth of moves like fox falco and maybe sheik (even though sideb and fsmash aren't terribly useful, they are still better than most characters unused moves). I think in this regard melee is a beautiful test of what types of moves are good and what types of moves aren't.

As for CCing... i think hax put it pretty well

due to increasingly popular defensive mechanisms such as crouch-cancelling and smash DI, getting a hit on the opponent often doesn't matter. if it was crouch-cancelled, the opponent doesn't have any hitstun and it doesn't lead into a combo. if it was smash DI'd, it doesn't lead into a combo. stronger attacks pierce crouch-cancelling, but they are slower. nowadays, pros have inhuman reaction times; these stronger, slower attacks are virtually impossible to land on any of today's top players while they're crouch-cancelling, since they'll be on the lookout for them.

He mentions this in his post about defense being too strong in melee... he also writes about aerials having too much lag

upon landing with an aerial in any traditional fighter, including MvC3, there is zero landing lag. aerials can immediately be followed by blocking or dashing back, making it much safer to utilize them offensively.

Melee:
even if you L-cancel an aerial in Melee, only half of its lag frames are trimmed. during the remaining landing lag, a character cannot take any actions and is entirely punishable. as a result, it is deadly to miss an aerial while DI'ing forward (approaching) in Melee. doing so puts you in lag and extremely close to your opponent, who isn't in hitstun/is free to punish you. if you whiff an aerial while DI'ing backwards (defending), however, you are almost always too far for them to punish you.

I believe meteor canceling and wall teching (edge teching, specifically) follow similar patterns that make it very easy to survive when you really should be dead (just like CCing makes it easy to remain safe even after you've been hit).

I have grown accustomed to these properties, however, and i think many of them are good at balancing defense and offense, but definitely could use some tweaking either on the moveset side (give characters better tools to work around these mechanics) or on the mechanical side (modify the values of the mechanics).

For example, I think 0 lag on aerials is bad in general though I like the unique character design peach has that uses it. Having no lag reduces the need for spacing on shields, but perhaps some moves should have less lag to counter their low range. Also, CCing is cool, but some characters are destroyed by CCing. Pikachu is a really cool model, though, since his uair acts as a method to beat CCing. Other characters have to space really well and do punish mixups (will they CC grab or CC dsmash?) which is awesome as well, but there is a lot that can be expanded on.


tl;dr the game is really great, but there are so many more things that can be done. If nintendo is smart, they will change these things for the better for the next game. If not, maybe one day someone else will enter the platform fighter market other than smash bros and do it right.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I find melee's tiers to drop really fast. I mean, on the falco boards people were just trying to say which one of his moves was his worst... but found that every single one has a use either inside combos or for spacing. I mean, his uair was argued as one of his worst and thats still a reliable kill move. Compare that to a character just slightly further down the list... say peach. How useful are sideb, neutralb, ftilt, utilt, fsmash, usmash... i mean every once in a while people can throw them in as a "o_O" move but generally they suck (maybe the smashes are somewhat useful). Going further down the list you find characters that have like 1 or 2 useful moves, period. Some really don't have any. Just imagine a game where everyone had a full moveset worth of moves like fox falco and maybe sheik (even though sideb and fsmash aren't terribly useful, they are still better than most characters unused moves). I think in this regard melee is a beautiful test of what types of moves are good and what types of moves aren't.

Her ftilt stuffs Falcon's nair. But I see your point here, and you're right.

As for CCing... i think hax put it pretty well


He mentions this in his post about defense being too strong in melee... he also writes about aerials having too much lag

Well, CC'ing leave you with 2/3rds the stun, if I remember correctly (correct me if not), so it's not that you don't suffer any hit stun. It's just signifiacntly less (though not quite half).

But yeah, I definitely see your points.