Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Bones0]

I think Kirby has fundamentally better qualities, but they are both so awful that you can't rely on fundamentals to win. The only way they are going to win is to gimmick the **** out of people, which means at the peak, Pichu is more likely to beat any other character than Kirby is. Sure, Kirby has actual moves and even some combos (utilt, uair, bair aren't totally awful on him), but those are tools for outplaying people straight up, not gimmicking. Pichu is fast and has a good nair and usmash. You're more likely to get gimmicked and gimped a bunch and lose a set to a Pichu than you are to lose straight up to a Kirby.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Jman perfected Fox's play style about four years ago and nobody noticed. Things have only declined since then, the success of Javi, Mango et al. ****ed things up by leading Fox players to focus on all the wrong things.

EDIT: To his credit, SFAT is the only current player on the right track.

Nah man, there have been a lot o subtleties added to foxes game over the past few years that have really helped the character both offensively and defensively. Jman was hella good but "perfecting" foxes playstyle? Not even. That's a steep claim and definitely not something that someone who doesn't even go to tournaments can accurately gage anyway.

Also, from playing sfat and watching his videos, I'd definitely say he is more like mango than Jman. I'd say if Jman had a spiritual successor it'd be leffen. He is a smart fox player who does whatever he has to win and doesn't over complicate his punish game when there are better options

 

[Purpletuce]

Also, you can't really say there is a perfect playstyle, because I think it changes for every stage/character. For example, on FD in Fox dittos, CG becomes an option, so using that might make you want to go for more grabs (higher reward). Subtle things like that change how you should play, and I don't think you can claim Jman perfected all of those, because he probably doesn't even play most of them.

Are you trying to say you think his playstyle reflected an optimal Fox mindset? I feel like that would be a more reasonable claim.

 

[MountainGoat]

Mango's Fox is pretty good

 

[choknater]

where do you think mango's puff would be in the current metagame, if he was still using her. Just a random question.

i don't know lol. it was so long ago that he actually took puff seriously. all i know is that he never lost a set in finals with puff LOL. armada has always whooped his spacies. can't really answer this question. i just know that playing puff can really help your patience and fundamentals, and help you recognize when are good and bad times to attack/retreat

 

[Jockmaster]

Mango's Puff seems wayyyyy too aggro to be successful in this meta

Especially considering how much focus Hbox has given the character. It seems that the ONLY way to effectively play Jiggs is to camp your **** off because that is obviously the best way to go about abusing her strengths

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Don't take hungrybox's style for playing puff as the only style for playing puff.

 

[Jockmaster]

No I just take it as the peak of Jiggs' playing style. There really doesn't seem to be much else to the character, except better Rest combos maybe.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No there is a lot more to the character. Its like watching M2K's sheik or fox and thinking that is all there is to the character. His may be among the most effective in the world and many people imitate him, but that isn't the peak or the limit to the character's potential.

 

[The Business]

Mango's Puff seems wayyyyy too aggro to be successful in this meta

Especially considering how much focus Hbox has given the character. It seems that the ONLY way to effectively play Jiggs is to camp your **** off because that is obviously the best way to go about abusing her strengths

I think that's the key word in this discussion.

 

[Jockmaster]

I think that's the key word in this discussion.

Obviously I can't state things as objective fact in a debate about a ****ing video game metagame tier list discussion

No there is a lot more to the character. Its like watching M2K's sheik or fox and thinking that is all there is to the character. His may be among the most effective in the world and many people imitate him, but that isn't the peak or the limit to the character's potential.

Butttttttttt Jiggs is SO different than Sheik or Fox... very different character type than both of them. Much more one-dimensional

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

A lot of the aggressive things mango did with puff were completely lost when he stopped playing her. AnDaLe has/had a pretty interesting aggressive puff, too. Very mango like.

 

[Bones0]

Puff definitely has a lot of unexplored styles left. Yeah, every Puff who's decent will zone with bairs sometimes, but that doesn't mean they will rely on it, and frankly if you watch Hbox's new stuff, he plays pretty aggressive now. I just remember that set he had with Fly's ICs where he just went balls deep and rested him/Nana a ridiculous number of times, but no one gets hyped because it's Hbox, and he used to just spam bair all game.

 

[john!]

puffs don't techchase into rest (particularly on platforms)

once they start doing that she's possibly 3rd best

 

[Blistering Speed]

Nah man, there have been a lot o subtleties added to foxes game over the past few years that have really helped the character both offensively and defensively. Jman was hella good but "perfecting" foxes playstyle? Not even.

I'm not claiming Fox's metagame has been entirely stagnant since Jman's peak, because that's very evidentially incorrect. When speaking of playstyle, I'm talking more of his awareness towards Fox's ability to seamlessly transition between offensive and defensive play, and when to apply both, as well as his notably methodical approach to combo and edge game. Both of these aspects have been largely neglected as of late, in favour of a lesser, ad hoc aggression style of play.

No I just take it as the peak of Jiggs' playing style. There really doesn't seem to be much else to the character, except better Rest combos maybe.

Couldn't agree more with Sveet here. Puff has gone relatively nowhere with anyone but Hungrybox since his rise because Puff's typically attempt to emulate him, with the same myopic mindset you use here (this is the same problem many characters with a forerunning player face). This will never work, because Hungrybox's style is so tailor made to his own patience, spacing and composure. Puff actually has intensely strong and unique aggressive options, largely due to his ridiculous air mobility. Think objectively about applying Puff's speed of aerial movement, his multitude of jumps and how they can shift momentum (both of which are lagless, inherent artifacts of the character's design), in combination with aerials of enviable utility, and tell me you don't see the potential for a sophisticated, aggressive spacing game.

 

[Pengie]

While I do think that Puff has some room for development, I don't think she'll ever be much better than maybe 6th; Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, and Falcon all either abuse her weaknesses super hard or take away one of her biggest strengths (read: her range). While she still has an amazing punishment, getting a significant hit with puff on these five characters is super hard because they are all either significantly more mobile and able to avoid puffs moves while staying in positions where they can punish her, or they have more range/priority which means that puff has a hard time getting anything started against them.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Nothing Mango did with Puff suddenly became bad just because Hbox took over (as a wise nerd once told me).

 

[Ziodyne]

@Blistering Speed, I don't think I see the trend that you're seeing. Rather, I think you're focusing on Mango and Javi because they are rather "trendy" Foxes with fun-looking aggressive styles so obviously you might hear more about them seeing as how popular they would be.

But beyond those two, what other Foxes have we seem perform well? Looking at unknown522, SFAT, and Leffen (sadly retired), I'd say we have quite a few smart Foxes who know their defense just as well as their offense.

 

[Purpletuce]

Puffs don't techchase into rest? I hope that is a joke. Puffs do that all the time, it just requires a read, and opponent who isn't aware of it. For any given platform, you can usually see where puff is going and roll to the opposite side (she is too slow to chase with rest, but can hit you with an aerial.) Usually it is better for the Puff to cover options. (note: you can also decide to go into Puff, as a mix up, but it puts you in risk of the rest. I think a player should tech into Puff as a rare mixup to keep the honest, if they're faking you out, but it general you shouldn't let Puff tech chase rest you.)

Puff has a ton of trouble with some characters, but I think they can make up for it. I think her only real problems are Fox and Falco (in that order IMO). Those characters are just so good that they can simply outdo her everything. The only problem that makes that hard to see is when Puff destroys those characters because they mess up. As Fox/Falcos get less sloppy, Puffs will get in less and not really have anything to do.

 

[Bones0]

Idk how anyone is making claims about how Puff will not be able to approach past a certain point. Puff can get in almost as well as other top tiers, and certainly as well as Peach/Doc. People just have to be smarter about how they go about it. One thing in particular I never see Puffs doing is crossing up and just holding shield. Mango has started doing this a lot with spacies, and I think if Puff tried something like this she'd be really good at it. She has more openings to cross up opponents than any other character because of her aerial mobility. People just need to be open to new stuff. Like maybe you should cross up their shield with a SH dair since it has a constant hitbox. That way they can't just aerial OoS as soon as you hit their shield because they'll get stuffed. Then you end up behind them as they panic from getting stuffed and you can grab or usmash or cross them up with another aerial or fake another cross up to make another OoS attack whiff. There's so many options that I never see people doing because they just want to zone bairs and stick with the guaranteed stuff, and sadly enough, those things usually get the job done because people suck so bad vs. Puff.

 

[Fortune]

you need stuff to win

and puff has the stuff

 

[choknater]

omggggg hbox played amazing at ncr

respect!

he adapted and focused on landing rest to turn the set around

 

[Purpletuce]

So, now Mango has lost to Armada, Hbox, PP and M2K lately? Mango REALLY must be the best player in the world now. Mango nation, right?

Anybody have any guesses how M2K vs Hbox would go? Last time I saw them play Hbox won it, but I think that was old. Impulse? Also, would M2K still go Fox?

 

[Bones0]

Mango didn't lose to Armada... Unless you are counting friendlies from Beast, in which case LOL.

 

[Purpletuce]

Wait, what? I don't think Armada has had any trouble beating Mango in so long, seeing them play isn't even necessary. Mango loses to Armada. Also, don't try to push that "Mango wasn't trying" nonsense, because I'll guarantee Mango didn't want to get 4-stocked.

Don't be hugs. Nobody wants that.

 

[Divinokage]

If Mango's puff played a bit more, I'm positive he would still own pretty much everybody. I played it in teams here and there without him practicing it.. and even then it was extremely hard to pull off a win. Puff requires little maintenance.

 

[choknater]

mango hasn't played puff seriously in like 4 years what are you guys talking about

 

[Juggleguy]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Puff/Marth/Peach <- super close IMO
Falcon
ICs

Tough decisions for the next tier list. Here's to hoping Dr. PeePee and PewPewU can continue to revitalize super high-level Marth play.

 

[ShroudedOne]

people suck so bad vs. Puff.

Highlighting this for the absurd amounts of truth.

 

[Bones0]

Highlighting this for the absurd amounts of truth.

What's ironic is when your character has the advantage of matchup experience vs. almost everyone, that means you should be trying more crazy random stuff. It's always seemed weird to me that people stick with really basic stuff with Puff when she's so unique and could do so many things even people with moderate Puff experience wouldn't be ready for. I have an okay amount of Puff practice, so I'd be much more likely to win vs. a Puff doing your standard bair zoning than a Puff doing weird stuff I've never seen before, even if it doesn't really work once I adapt to it.

I thought this was the Puff forums.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ pretty much goes for 99% of players, regardless of character

 

[john!]

For any given platform, you can usually see where puff is going and roll to the opposite side (she is too slow to chase with rest

no she's not. there's a reason m2k teched in place on the arwing during the last stock of pound 3.

people suck so bad vs. Puff.

this is so true. my garbage fox is like 3/0 in tournament against a st. louis puff that beats a lot of great chicago players, just because chicago has no puffs and i spent 4 years playing vs. a good puff during college

experience makes all the difference, and the rarity of puff players works hugely in their favor. this is the same reason i'm able to cheese some people with my basic-ass ice climbers, provided they haven't played against trail very often.

 

[The Star King]

So, now Mango has lost to Armada, Hbox, PP and M2K lately? Mango REALLY must be the best player in the world now. Mango nation, right?

When did he lose to Hbox lately?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no she's not



this is so true. my garbage fox is like 3/0 in tournament against a st. louis puff that beats a lot of great chicago players, just because chicago has no puffs and i spent 4 years playing vs. a good puff during college

experience makes all the difference, and the rarity of puff players works hugely in their favor. this is the same reason i'm able to cheese some people with my basic-*** ice climbers, provided they haven't played against trail very often.

bieber is just bad vs fox. He hasn't beaten me either and im awful at this game

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

When did he lose to Hbox lately?

HBox won NCR

Unless you're saying it doesn't count because Mango won the games 5-3, even though he lost the second set of GFs.

If that's the case, then I say

Are you **** serious

Double elimination is double elimination, we all know the rules, it's just the nature of the game. HBox lost one set, Mango lost two sets--or have you already forgotten that Mango lost to PewPewU while Hungrybox 3-0'd him? This isn't the first time game count has been lopsided and won't be the last. We don't score the tourney by game count the same way we don't score it by stock count (I don't even want to think of all the sets where stock count has been lopsided against the set victor, but no one complains that so and so took more stocks).

tl;dr: Don't think "Mango won 5 games HBox won 3 games," think "Mango lost two sets, HBox only lost one," since, y'know, that's the one measure that matters as we all knew walking into this tournament. #nojohns

I'm imagining an alternate universe where pro tennis players moan and groan after losing a tournament because they won more games but lost in set count

EDIT: Oh yeah btw stream was super hype, this was a really enjoyable tourney to watch, though I really wish it had all been Bo5. FGC format sadface. It was good to have KoC2 and this tournament back-to-back because the contrast made it very clear just how good Bo5 for most/all of bracket is.

 

[choknater]

When did he lose to Hbox lately?

two days ago

 

[john!]

@sveet, i think it's a patience/playstyle thing, to be honest. i do really well vs. him regardless of character. going against puff requires a different mentality.

 

[Strong Badam]

bieber is just bad vs fox. He hasn't beaten me either and im awful at this game

I agree with all of this post.

 

[The Star King]

HBox won NCR

Unless you're saying it doesn't count because Mango won the games 5-3, even though he lost the second set of GFs.

If that's the case, then I say

I wasn't saying that, I just didn't know. Thanks.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are vids up yet, btw?