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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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Don't particularly agree with the list by TCB, but I like his argument as well. . . Some noteable things I disagree on are that Falco has a wall that is Peach, and that Falco is going to die out because of the current affinity toward stronger movement.

Although Falco doesn't have the greatest movement in the game, particularly his ground movement, he has some pretty good air movement, and still solid options between all of his movement. His movement options aren't as fast/long as some of his competitors, but that just forces him to take more control of his movement, and use more precision and control. Countering his relatively weak movement (compared to other characters around his placement in the tier list), he has some of the best control, and the ability to shut down the other player's movement.

I don't need to state how lasers can lock down opponents at this point, everyone knows it. Lasers cover a ton of horizontal options, and force opponents into the air, unless they can beat the lasers . . . although nobody is too amazing at PSing lasers, esp. if the Falco varies his laser height. When Falco gets his opponent into the air, this usually gives him a few options for his control, most noteably he can know when his opponents will come down (most characters will either do it after they jump, or after they double jump, or they land on a platform) (unless they are Puff or Peach, and since float is so prolific at getting around this way of control, that is probably why she gives the bird such a hard time, by not allowing her movement to be shut down) Falco will often gain a positional advantage from this as well. Falco has great priority, and some of the best active frames (I think D-air, B-air and F-smash stay out for 12 frames, and D-air spikes for all of that. . .), these long moves re great for zoning out areas, creating lasting threats. these moves all come out pretty fast, but when they're not fast enough, he also has the shine, which comes out instant, but doesn't last very long. This move, should it land also will give the bird a positional advantage, as well as starting combos.

All of the attributes I mentioned help Falco deal with movement, in a way that seems more like you "chess" them into positions. (Term I heard from KK which seems most appropriate.) So I do agree that movement will help develop many characters, I don't agree that Falco will have too much problem with people further developing their movement. The bird is, after all, the word.



Also, I find the ideas of giving less tiers, and not ranking characters in their tiers interesting, but I don't think the tiers should be that abrupt, also I think tier breaking shouldn't be as linear, as in minute improvements among higher tier characters valued more than the larger gaps in lower tiers, making smaller top tiers and greater lower tiers. . .
 

Jockmaster

Smash Ace
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How can everyone put Ness in the same tier as Kirby, Bowser, and Pichu?

***** has some fantastic aerials and a superb spacing game. His recovery sucks, but I seriously surprise people with the sheer power of Ness whenever I whip it out against them.

Like, yeah he still sucks, but he isn't **** tier. He's just low tier (at least above G&W and M2).
 

Bones0

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Idk about G&W 'cause his hitboxes are pretty good at making sure he at least has something vs. every character, but I would put him above Mewtwo. I also think Roy is really overrated. Like, how can he KO an opponent camping the top platform with a stock lead? It's hard enough for him to get up there, and even when he does, you are still swatting them with a wet noodle. Ness just gets DD and shield camped really hard. You can usually scrap together some sort of zoning with his good WD, fair, and bair to make the opponent do something bad, but the only real way around shield camping is to man up and run in and grab them which just feels unfair because Ness suffers from Baby T-Rex Arms Syndrome.
 

Divinokage

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fox
falco
marth
sheik
peach
falcon
puff

idk rest
Lmao what BS. 2 Puffs have been able to win tournaments consistently and I've seen some others even win good sized tourneys or place really well overall. (Mango, Chexr, Darc as examples) Also Puff doesn't really have a horrible matchups. You have to explain at least why you would put her so low when there's evidence that says otherwise.
 

Max?

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Lmao what BS. 2 Puffs have been able to win tournaments consistently and I've seen some others even win good sized tourneys or place really well overall. (Mango, Chexr, Darc as examples) Also Puff doesn't really have a horrible matchups. You have to explain at least why you would put her so low when there's evidence that says otherwise.

Same reason why Falco mains place him 4th or 5th, why Falcon mains place him below Doc, why Marth mains place Marth below peach, etc etc etc
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
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I love high tier mains like TCB who place their main higher than what is generally accepted.

Ness is terrible, but not completely horrible like Bowser/Pichu/Kirby. GaW is clearly better than him, though. That guy has surprisingly good hitboxes and general damage output. If his defensive options weren't non-existent he'd be actually kinda good. I even think he's better than Roy. I mean, GaWs defense is horrible, and Roys offense is horrible. If your opponent tries to avoid interaction where he isn't at a huge advantage (aka camp Roy to death), Roy is pretty much refuted as a character. On the other side, trying to capitalize on GaWs meager defenses means that you are approaching which always entails a non neglectable risk.
Then again Roy imho has the better Falco matchup, which is worth a lot in our meta-game, I think.

Then again, they are all so horrible that they really don't hold any relevance :x
 

Jockmaster

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NO XYZZ THIS MATTERS

Ness is secretly low-mid tier I'm telling you mother****ers

His dash attack is a goddamn projectile...srsly it's like the best ever

But seriously yeah he has a hard time getting in, but his ability to zone with fair is awesome. Especially if you sling it in super jank ways with your double jump. I honestly think he's better than G&W too because G&W can't even put his shield up...there is no defense. Ness can at least defend himself and has some sort of flow to his gameplay

MID TIER: Link, YLink, Mario
OK YOU MIGHT BE USABLE BUT ONLY FOR JANKNESS TIER: Yoshi, DK, Ness, G&W
ALMOST **** TIER: Mewtwo, Zelda, Roy
**** TIER: Kirby, Bowser, P-choo
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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i think my list is still

falco
fox
marth
sheik
peach
puff
falcon
ics
 

Little England

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I haven't really changed my mind.

Fox
Marth
Falco/Sheik (not sure)
Puff
Peach
Falcon

The problem I have with tier list discussion is everyone has a different idea of what a tier list is. It usally comes down to two groups a of people:

1) People who think tier lists are congruent with tournament results.
2) People who theorize character strength based on each characters strengths and weaknesses (while keeping into account current human capabilities).

Personally I fit into the second group. The first could easily be done with an algorithm which would eliminate the whole point of this thread, which is discussion. That's just my opinion though.
 

MountainGoat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
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Sheik Fox Falco Marth Jiggs Peach
Captain Falcon Icies Dr Mario PIkachu
Ganon Samus Luigi Mario
DK YL Link Yoshi Zelda
Everyone else
9000. Bowser
9001. Pichu
90000001. Kirby

shout out to Game and Watch for most fun terrible low tier
 
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1) People who think tier lists are congruent with tournament results.
2) People who theorize character strength based on each characters strengths and weaknesses (while keeping into account current human capabilities).
But, what other people fit into is also the mix between the two. Giving different weights to each one. There is the theoretical match-up discussion part. There is the realistic application of realizing that a person will undoubtedly drop a combo (human error). And finally a segment that takes current standings into account.

 

Bones0

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Thats because Fox has infinite potential.
Yeah, but if you're basing your list off of results, then it shouldn't matter how much potential you think a character has. So people will put Fox at first and say, "he haz teh potential", and then when they're justifying Falco at second, they go "PP and Mango both place really well with Falco!" Then when they are asked about other characters like Peach or Falcon, they ignore the players that do well and just say they don't think they have as much potential. So like, I don't really care what order people rank characters, but when I constantly see double standards in terms of criteria for determining skill, it gets really annoying.
 

The Hooded Informant

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Ahem, in all honesty, I think the tier list should be as follows, and this is quite fair, too:

S: Marth, Falco, Peach, Sheik
A: Fox, Ganondorf, Doc Mario, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Link
B: Luigi, Mario
C: Captain Falcon, Samus, Donkey Kong
D: Mewtwo, Young Link, Roy, Zelda
E: Bowser, Yoshi, Pichu, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, Kirby

As well, I can give reasonable information as to why they can be so high or so low.
-Marth is best due to his fast attacks, great counters, great recovery tactics, and perfect combo starting and ending ability. His attacks can also surpass most in speed, and his air game is one of the best in the game, if not the best. He can also be great at edgeguarding and GIMPing.
-Pikachu is much higher because of his great edgeguarding, GIMPing and potential KO ability. He also has amazing air game, making for the top 3 best in the game, other than Marth and Jigglypuff. Pikachu also has powerful smash attacks that have great knockback.
-Link is high tier because he has much potential, or in fact, actual ability, to go high because of the best edgeguarding in the game, best semi-spike, easy combo starts, fast dash attack, and high KO ability.
-Doctor Mario is high because of his ability that surpass most characters. His smash attacks can give distance and stun, as well as his DownB can be useful for escapes, furthermore, his F-air, when compared to Mario's, is much more powerful, so is his D-air.
-Ganondorf is high due to his fast, powerful attacks, and the fact that, even though he is not a good jumper (that's what we thought, though), he can still juggle and combo characters to the player's delight.
-Captain Falcon is low due to a variety of things, including his attack strength, his miscalculation with run and jump, his fast-falling speed, his attack speed on the ground, easily juggled and comboed. BUT, he does have some good things including the Knee Smash, Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick recovery. He also has a great recovery.
-Samus is low due to floatiness, easy combo due to weight, slow, weak, aerial attacks, horrible UpSmash, and weak recovery. That doesn't say that she isn't good. She can have quick succession with her Down Smash and Side Smash, as well as her UTilt, DTilt and STilt.
-Mewtwo is on the top of D because he has the fastest succession of Smash Attacks in the game. He also has good KO ability, good combo ability, and as well, a great recovery and escape method. He also has the best throws in the game, making it hard for opponents to stay in the arena at high percentages. However, he lacks speed and is more of a strategical character.
-Pichu is higher than the other 3 because, unlike them, he can actually be good. He might have some weak attacks, is the lightest character, easy to KO, and small range, BUT he has a tiny hitbox, making him hard to kill. As well, he has some of the faster succession of attacks, a strong SideB, a good DownB (if used without hitting Pichu), and a good semi-spike. He also has some good combo ability.

This is more reasonable than I could make it. Like this if you agree, quote and comment if you have any disagreement or change idea.
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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We know this must be fair now, because he said it is. Link for high tier? Ganondorf 8 spots above Falcon? I think that if that list isn't trolling, it is very misguided.
 

Tarv

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Outside of Pittsburgh
Cause everyone else is, I made my own updated tier list because I want to be cool too:

SS: Theoretical Fox
S: Falco/Sheik/Practical Fox
A: Marth/Jigglypuff/Peach
B: Falcon/Ice Climbers
C: Doc/Samus/Mario/Ganon
D: Pikachu/Luigi/Young Link/Link
E: Mewtwo/Zelda/DK/Roy
F: Yoshi/Ness/Mr. Game and Watch
G: Bowser/Kirby/Pichu
 

The Hooded Informant

Banned via Warnings
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We know this must be fair now, because he said it is. Link for high tier? Ganondorf 8 spots above Falcon? I think that if that list isn't trolling, it is very misguided.
Now look, not to be rude, but I know that Link has potential over Mario, DK, Luigi, Falcon and Samus. Pikachu is definitely a higher tier of that order. Link is 11th on the tier list, which doesn't make him a high tier, per se. His position is actually close to his previous in the tier lists.

Ganondorf has a much faster air game than that of C. Falcon, and as well, he has a more powerful one. He can easily KO any character he can.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

PhD; Smash Community Studies
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Since everyone else is doing it, here's an updated version of my Tier List

SSS: Super broken banned by the devs tier: Metaknight,
SS: Super Broken Banned By Players: Items, most Stages
S: Mewtwo tier: Mewtwo
A: OP Down B tier: Fox, Falco, Puff, Zelda
B: Grabbers tier: Marth, Sheik, ICs, Master Hand
C: OP Fair tier: Falcon, Ganon, Doc
D: P Tier: Peach, Pikachu, Pichu
E: Projectile Tier: Samus, Link, Young Link
F: Forgettable tier: Yoshi, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness
G: Gods of Nintendo tier: Mario, Luigi
H: Here's Where Everyone Else Goes tier: Roy, DK, Bowser, Kirby

Characters not ordered within tiers.

Anyone I forgot to place goes in F tier.

Like this post if you agree, disagree, or think I'm an idiot.
 

john!

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guys, instead of posting "updated lists" why not just post about how your opinions have changed in the past *however long ago you posted your last tier list*

that's why you're re-posting the lists anyway, right?

it's more productive to talk about recent shifts in the metagame instead of just having people blurt out random opinions
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Jarrettsville, MD
guys, instead of posting "updated lists" why not just post about how your opinions have changed in the past *however long ago you posted your last tier list*

that's why you're re-posting the lists anyway, right?

it's more productive to talk about recent shifts in the metagame instead of just having people blurt out random opinions
I'm sorry john!, but you just fell 3 spots on my Tier List Discussion tier list for trying to encourage discussions of substance in the tier list thread.
 

john!

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I'm sorry john!, but you just fell 3 spots on my Tier List Discussion tier list for trying to encourage discussions of substance in the tier list thread.
you don't even know anything about the tier list discussion thread metagame, dude. you just spam overpowered bull**** like cat avatars and colored fonts, and think you're hot stuff.
 

Comatose

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 20, 2013
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Bay Shore, NY
Ahem, in all honesty, I think the tier list should be as follows, and this is quite fair, too:

S: Marth, Falco, Peach, Sheik
A: Fox, Ganondorf, Doc Mario, Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Link
B: Luigi, Mario
C: Captain Falcon, Samus, Donkey Kong
D: Mewtwo, Young Link, Roy, Zelda
E: Bowser, Yoshi, Pichu, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, Kirby

As well, I can give reasonable information as to why they can be so high or so low.
-Marth is best due to his fast attacks, great counters, great recovery tactics, and perfect combo starting and ending ability. His attacks can also surpass most in speed, and his air game is one of the best in the game, if not the best. He can also be great at edgeguarding and GIMPing.
-Pikachu is much higher because of his great edgeguarding, GIMPing and potential KO ability. He also has amazing air game, making for the top 3 best in the game, other than Marth and Jigglypuff. Pikachu also has powerful smash attacks that have great knockback.
-Link is high tier because he has much potential, or in fact, actual ability, to go high because of the best edgeguarding in the game, best semi-spike, easy combo starts, fast dash attack, and high KO ability.
-Doctor Mario is high because of his ability that surpass most characters. His smash attacks can give distance and stun, as well as his DownB can be useful for escapes, furthermore, his F-air, when compared to Mario's, is much more powerful, so is his D-air.
-Ganondorf is high due to his fast, powerful attacks, and the fact that, even though he is not a good jumper (that's what we thought, though), he can still juggle and combo characters to the player's delight.
-Captain Falcon is low due to a variety of things, including his attack strength, his miscalculation with run and jump, his fast-falling speed, his attack speed on the ground, easily juggled and comboed. BUT, he does have some good things including the Knee Smash, Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick recovery. He also has a great recovery.
-Samus is low due to floatiness, easy combo due to weight, slow, weak, aerial attacks, horrible UpSmash, and weak recovery. That doesn't say that she isn't good. She can have quick succession with her Down Smash and Side Smash, as well as her UTilt, DTilt and STilt.
-Mewtwo is on the top of D because he has the fastest succession of Smash Attacks in the game. He also has good KO ability, good combo ability, and as well, a great recovery and escape method. He also has the best throws in the game, making it hard for opponents to stay in the arena at high percentages. However, he lacks speed and is more of a strategical character.
-Pichu is higher than the other 3 because, unlike them, he can actually be good. He might have some weak attacks, is the lightest character, easy to KO, and small range, BUT he has a tiny hitbox, making him hard to kill. As well, he has some of the faster succession of attacks, a strong SideB, a good DownB (if used without hitting Pichu), and a good semi-spike. He also has some good combo ability.

This is more reasonable than I could make it. Like this if you agree, quote and comment if you have any disagreement or change idea.
Okay, a few things I notice with this that are a bit questionable:

Marth- while he does have a good air game, by no means would I say it surpasses Puffs. And as for his gimping ability, it is great, but a well timed shine spike or good egde guard, or a nice doc cape can do the same. Also, on the matter of his range, yes it is amazing, yes it can be a challenge, but there are ways is. And these ways in are soooo often exploited in today's metagame. Not to say he's not great. He is. But I wouldn't say #1

Pikachu- again, the air game is good, and he can gimp, but he's far too light, dies too quickly. Plus he has sooooo many attacks that are easy to punish, and his OOS options are a bit limited (imo)

Link- in theory he seems good, good mix of ranged attacks and melee attacks. But in practice... just no. His air game isn't good. All his attacks are quite easy to punish, as they have a ton of lag. He really can't edge guard as well as any of the current top tiers. His recovery is pretty awful, and the only exploit to this being the bomb jump, which 1. hurts yourself, and 2. CAN ONLY BE USED IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY HIT WITH HIS UP-B. His only saving grace really is his up-b OOS. For evidence why he should not be high tier, see links vs. stinks crew battle.

Doc- now, I'm a doc main, and even I disagree with this. I admit, can gimp and edge guard, and when played well is certainly a threat. BUT his smash attacks have god awful range, his recovery is also god awful. On top of that, his down b is really not great for escapes, it's soooo easy to punish.

Ganondorf- okay... I'm confused with this one... are you trolling?? I guess powerful attacks, but by no means fast. Again, sooooo much lag on them, and they take so long to come out. Not to say he's not a great character, but not above falcon.

Falcon- he is easy to combo, and does fall fast, granted. But miscalculation with run and jump? That's not even basing it off his play, just the fact that non falcon players mess up jumps and running. Attack strength is fine. Great even. And as far as ground attack speed goes... -_- reaalllyyy not sure if you're trolling here... cuz ganons ground attack speed is soooo much worse. Also, his grab combos into almost anything a falcon wants. Bam, zero to death off a grab.

Samus- great OOS options, aerials are great. Recovery is amazing, so no clue what youre talking about there. Her tilts are great, comboing fine. And floaties are actually harder to combo than fastfallers, plus the defensive play style of samuses... soooooo yeah not too much comboing there

Mewtwo- fastest smashes?? Sir, I believe your perception of time is flawed

Pichu- hurts itself, can pretty much be killed at 50%, god awful range? Any of these factor in? "Good down b if it doesn't hit you"?? Even if you miss yourself, you still are vulnerable. Pretty much dead after using that once. Punish+the percent you tack onto yourself means you're flying as soon as they get that punish.


Did not mean for that to turn into an essay... oh well haha.
 

Fortune

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 28, 2010
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you don't even know anything about the tier list discussion thread metagame, dude. you just spam overpowered bull**** like cat avatars and colored fonts, and think you're hot stuff.
cat avatars are the best :happysheep: i would know because my avatar is a fox and a fox is a cat
 
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