Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Wake]

I'm pretty curious too.

 

[unknown522]

Assuming that bones isn't trolling though

 

[ViperGold42]

Captain Falcon as 4th...interesting.

Yeah, I'm interested too. I promise not to pick at meaningless details, too.

getting down and dirty eh?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I assumed he was trolling when I read it, but if he isn't, it'd be nice to see why.

At least he doesn't think his main is like 10th or something, lol.

 

[Bones0]

I think Falco is heavily overrated, but I still think he is the strongest character at this point in time. I think there is a lot work to be done in dealing with or preventing lasers that people just haven't gotten around to. It's one of the reasons I would say Peach wins the matchup is because floating so easily negates lasering as a means of controlling space. Other characters can't compete with a float, but they certainly don't seem to deal with them as effectively as possible.

I'll post about Falcon tomorrow.

 

[john!]

Results-based tiers are pointless (see: my wall of text from a while back where I explained why I thought it was dumb).

what is your tier list based on, then?

can you explain why peach is 2nd and fox is 6th, without using tournament results?

 

[ViperGold42]

what is your tier list based on, then?

can you explain why peach is 4th and fox is 6th, without using tournament results?

well I did read it and he makes some really good points. but without tournament results you can't really see what characters are being used etc. etc. troll comment whatever etc,

 

[Deleted member]

The thing that annoys me the most Bing, is that people focus on that extraneous bull**** rather than Fox's actual weaknesses. Like, you know

1) how he has the worst range of any top tier, making dash/wavedash back a serious vulnerability among other things

2) how his hitboxes are inconsistent (dair is finnicky, uair is SDIable, dsmash is ground techable, nair is CCable to deathgrab up to 50+ %, shine hitstun gets canceled if they touch ground out of the air, etc)

3) how lasers are high risk low reward, and a corner camping fox is essentially committing to possible death for 3-6% at many distances

4) how his options when dropping through a platform are limited; his low range often requires him to jump or dash->shield drop first, costing time compared to top tier tactics like Marth/Sheik's dropthrough fair, Falcon's uair, Puff/Peach's floating/jumping, etc. The end result is that his angles of attack are much simpler than other characters, and often relegated to the edge of platforms (particularly the space between the edge of the top platform and the edge of the side platforms)...making him even MORE susceptible to dashdancing

5) how he requires momentum to do anything useful, making a cornered Fox really susceptible. For a character that uses platforms so much, its amazing how terrible his options are if he is on the corner of a side platform with the opponent controlling center stage.

etc

That is not to say that Fox isn't a super broken god of Melee...he is (killing power, shield pressure, dashdance, ledgedash, bair, blah blah blah), but I don't feel his weaknesses are as commonly discussed as other top tiers (see: Marth's lack of active frames, Sheik's weak approaches, Peach's slowness, etc)

post of the year?

 

[john!]

no other character has two players that would consistently tie or outplace mango and javi's foxes in a tournament

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think Falco is heavily overrated, but I still think he is the strongest character at this point in time. I think there is a lot work to be done in dealing with or preventing lasers that people just haven't gotten around to. It's one of the reasons I would say Peach wins the matchup is because floating so easily negates lasering as a means of controlling space. Other characters can't compete with a float, but they certainly don't seem to deal with them as effectively as possible.

I'll post about Falcon tomorrow.

I forgot to say it, but out of everything we disagree on, I definitely agree 100 percent on everything you said here.

 

[JPOBS]

Falco
Peach
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Marth
Fox
Jigglypuff

Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Samus

Luigi
Mario
Pikachu



Haters gonna hate.

Oh, and whoever I was arguing with about Doc vs. Mario... I guess you changed my mind. lol

Yo, put fox and above marth and this list is official as hell

 

[Blistering Speed]

Horrific list that should be burnt to the ****ing ground for being entirely nonsensical.

EDIT: Loving the sycophants "curious" of rationale though. Were it anyone but an established poster, that thing would've been torn to shreds.

EDIT: TCB's post on Fox was legit as ****.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I still haven't learned.

 

[Zoler]

Peach 2nd... Falcon over fox???

wtf

This must be the worst tier list I've seen in a while

 

[Kink-Link5]

Horrific list that should be burnt to the ****ing ground for being entirely nonsensical.

EDIT: Loving the sycophants "curious" of rationale though. Were it anyone but an established poster, that thing would've been torn to shreds.

Pretty much my thoughts on most things on the boards. Seniority and recognition trump sensibility and reasoning in a post. As long as your name is known you can say the daftest **** and get away with it.

 

[Bones0]

The problem is, being established as an intelligent poster is relevant to the post. If some noob comes in and his first post ever is "Peach is really good, she should be 2nd on the tier list", there is a TON of information being inferred that would NOT be inferred if Dr. PP came in and said the exact same thing.

There's this horrible attitude that if you don't agree with someone, you should discount their opinion. It should work the other way around. You should be actively seeking out people who challenge your beliefs because the more times you challenge your belief of a system like the tiers, the more accurate they will be simply from the increased knowledge and awareness of aspects of the game. Someone could quite easily blow minds by looking at this game from a different angle (god knows theirs a million of them), and completely change your mind if you only have an open enough mind to consider their points.

I sit by day by day seeing every single list begin with Fox, Falco, Jiggs, but I never go "OMG YOU ARE INSANE! RIDICULOUS! YOUR OPINION CARRIES NO WEIGHT BECAUSE I DISAGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!" If I did that, I'd just be another drone parroting pretty much the same tiers we've had since 2010 (and more loosely, since 2002).

 

[Kimimaru]

I'd say Fox is definitely above Falcon and Marth. His attacks come out quicker than both of theirs and he has a better recovery than either of them.

Anyway, we should be posting full tier lists because we're making a tier list for the whole game. Simply rearranging the top 8 or so and keeping everyone else the same is not a good practice.

I think many low tiers have lots of untapped potential in them, and we don't get to see that since very few people play them because most look at the tier list and say "Oh, I'll just play the guys at the top."

Not to be biased, but I think Yoshi in particular needs to be moved up, at the very least 2 slots. My reasoning is that Yoshi is a very complex character with many unique advantages. To start, he's a very heavy character with a medium falling speed. He can trade hits very well thanks to the super armor from his DJ, and his up air is a pretty strong move that's great for juggling fast fallers and killing floaties at ~80-90%. He also has multiple ways of grabbing the ledge: he can wavedash off; DJ grab; Egg Throw grab; Yoshi Bomb; etc. B-air can combo into N-air or U-air and does 20% alone if every hitbox connects. F-smash, U-smash, and Dash attack all have invincibility frames on the head and have good knockback, while D-smash and D-tilt simply destroy fast fallers. Then there's U-tilt, which can help escape a grab from taller characters after shield pressuring because it moves his head down and helps juggle. His shield always completely covers his body and lasts one frame longer than anyone else's (pretty negligible), and his powershield is invisible and can be used to escape shield pressure since he slides farther than any other character with it. Then there's parrying (aka supershielding), which can be used to counter any attack and retaliate immediately.

Of course, Yoshi also has disadvantages. Parrying is extremely difficult to perform consistently, and without a proper recovery move he gets gimped easily if he loses his double jump. His verticle ledge grab distance is pathetic and makes it hard for him to recover effectively from below. He can't jump out of his shield, which limits his options, unless he parries, and he has a very limited grab game because both of his grabs are so slow. Some of his attacks have a lot of ending lag and leave him more vulnerable to punishes if they miss. He doesn't have much range on his attacks and a lot of his aerials lack decent priority.

tl;dr

Yoshi is a character with a lot of potential if properly utilized.

Just my two cents.

 

[Bones0]

I didn't post more than the 14 I did because I'm not arrogant enough to think I know anything at all about mid tiers and below and how they interact with the rest of the cast. The last few on my list I weren't even comfortable with because, like I've said a million times, the player pool isn't deep enough to draw accurate conclusions about how good those characters are. Having 3 exceptional Yoshi players doesn't necessarily mean that he has a lot of potential compared to someone like Roy who has almost no actual mains. It may just mean that Yoshi is more fun of a character and has more people playing him (for the record I do think Yoshi has mad potential ;D). This is certainly the case with the spacies. You'd think if Fox was actually the best in the game we would have a few Fox mains in the top 8 considering an INSANELY large portion of the community plays him. It'd be like all the barlw MK **** that is going on, but no MKs even placing top 8. Imagine people are ranting and raving about broken-*** MK who half the community plays, but no one seems to actually win any high-level sets with him. Now replace MK with Fox and you have an accurate description of the Melee community.

All of this aside, I don't even care if people STILL want to believe against all evidence Fox is dominant. But when I post a tier list where Fox is, for the most part, pretty accurately represented as he is in results, it's definitely not okay that I get flamed.

 

[john!]

hey bones, i'm still curious about how you made your tier list (since you disapprove of results-based lists)

can you answer my question from earlier?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14573802&postcount=8326

 

[Zoler]

Who cares if fox doesn't win as much. Fox doesn't have a PP / Armada / Hbox player. If Fox did have someone like Armada playing him, god help us.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I am pretty sure bonesO is just kinda making stuff up, so people will start thinking differently about tiers and stuff.

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's this horrible attitude that if you don't agree with someone, you should discount their opinion. It should work the other way around. You should be actively seeking out people who challenge your beliefs because the more times you challenge your belief of a system like the tiers, the more accurate they will be simply from the increased knowledge and awareness of aspects of the game. Someone could quite easily blow minds by looking at this game from a different angle (god knows theirs a million of them), and completely change your mind if you only have an open enough mind to consider their points.

Playing Devil's Advocate is something done by 11th graders who can't form an opinion of their own.

 

[Jockmaster]

Anyone who really thinks Falcon is higher than like 7 on the tier list is poorly judging his actual strengths and weaknesses.

Hes fast, combos and tech chases well, heavy, and has some good KO power.

BUT

His range is mediocre, hes a fast faller so he gets combo'd, his offstage recovery is balls, and above all else, hes simply too one-dimensional.

When it comes down to it this is Falcons game:
shffl->shffl->shffl-> grab-> techchase->shffl-> etc

Even at the highest level of play thats really all Falcon comes down to. This is mainly due to a lack of decent spacing ability or defensive play.

I love the hell out of Falcon, **** he was my main forever until I converted to his Mr. Hyde (Ganon), but there is no reason he should be even considered higher tier than the likes of Fox, Marth, Jiggs, Sheik, Falco, Peach, and (imo) ICs

 

[choknater]

falcon has better overall matchups than ic's so i think i will always put him above ic's

ic's do better against the top tiers though so it's all good.

actually i think if peach didn't exist, ic's could deserve to be higher on the tier list LOL.

 

[Bing]

My last list was biased, heres a legit one.
S:
Falco
Fox
Marth
Sheik

A:
Peach
Puff
Falcon

B:
ICs
Samus
Doc

C:Luigi
Ganon
YLink

D:
Pikachu
Mario
Link
DK

E:
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Roy
G&W
Zelda

F:
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu

I dont know something like this ish.

 

[Bones0]

what is your tier list based on, then?

can you explain why peach is 2nd and fox is 6th, without using tournament results?

My tier list is based on my own theories about character potential. I am considering character potential at the current point in time, however, not some 2020 Melee where all characters are being played ideal. You could essentially say that if a position I allotted to a character doesn't seem reflected in results, it's probably because I consider the character to be underplayed (both in quantity and quality). I also took into consideration the opposite effect. Characters that are overplayed are obviously more likely to perform better. If we had 99 players out of a 100 playing Fox, Fox placing top 7 out of 8 (Hbox got 1st) is largely unimpressive.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Playing Devil's Advocate is something done by 11th graders who can't form an opinion of their own.

This is something said by people who can't handle having their views challenged.

*sigh*

 

[Bones0]

Playing Devil's Advocate is something done by 11th graders who can't form an opinion of their own.

That's not Devil's Advocate. It's the scientific method. If you never consider other people's opinions, then why bother posting on the boards? More opinions are better than 1. That is just common sense. I agree people who solely play Devil's Advocate by asking obvious questions are annoying, but that's hardly what I'm doing by encouraging others to be open minded about characters on the tier.

Anyone who really thinks Falcon is higher than like 7 on the tier list is poorly judging his actual strengths and weaknesses.

Hes fast, combos and tech chases well, heavy, and has some good KO power.

BUT

His range is mediocre, hes a fast faller so he gets combo'd, his offstage recovery is balls, and above all else, hes simply too one-dimensional.

When it comes down to it this is Falcons game:
shffl->shffl->shffl-> grab-> techchase->shffl-> etc

Even at the highest level of play thats really all Falcon comes down to. This is mainly due to a lack of decent spacing ability or defensive play.

I love the hell out of Falcon, **** he was my main forever until I converted to his Mr. Hyde (Ganon), but there is no reason he should be even considered higher tier than the likes of Fox, Marth, Jiggs, Sheik, Falco, Peach, and (imo) ICs

I think Falcon's range is one of his best attributes... Uair is a giant semi-circle. Nair is really long. Dair is... I don't think anyone knows WTF dair's hitbox is, but it's certiainly large. Then you also have to take his speed into consideration because speed (both in terms of startup as well as movement) is just as important as range. Ganon's utilt has good range, but you're never going to get it out in time so what's the point? Fox's nair has pretty much the same range as most aerials, but he's so damn fast that he can make his nairs feel like they are coming from far away. Falco's nair isn't any different from Fox's, but it feels a hell of a lot slower when Falco is SHFFLing at you because he has to be so much closer in order to initiate the SHFFL. Falcon is an absolute beast in this category because he has a beast DD, he can fly through the air further with his SH than most characters can with their FH, and his nair/uair are fast enough that their startup doesn't negate his ability to approach from so far away. I think he is one of the best characters in terms of raw punishment when it comes to opponents messing up their spacing. If a Falco is playing a Marth, Marth can play with his spacing a lot more because Falco can't just leap at him or run at him and grab in a split second if his spacing is off. Falcon can do those things, so it completely changes the entire dynamic of spacing because his range is much more threatening.


I'm curious what you mean by him being one-dimensional. He seems just as intricate as any other character. You can say all he does his grab, tech chase, and SHFFL, but you could say the same thing about pretty much any character...

 

[Bing]

Grab, Tech chase and SHFFL... Sounds like Sheik...

 

[Sukai]

Results based lists are pretty damn silly.

Who cares if fox doesn't win as much. Fox doesn't have a PP / Armada / Hbox player. If Fox did have someone like Armada playing him, god help us.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Results based lists are pretty damn silly.

Lists that dont take results into account r also pretty silly, i mean if we r not taking results into consideration at that point we might as well make the tier list based on ar so bowser for 3rd.

Also why do people keep putting marth so high even when there has been no reason to do so in around 2 years and even theory wose hes not as high as many place him.

 

[Wake]

Horrific list that should be burnt to the ****ing ground for being entirely nonsensical.

EDIT: Loving the sycophants "curious" of rationale though. Were it anyone but an established poster, that thing would've been torn to shreds.

EDIT: TCB's post on Fox was legit as ****.

No. Had anyone put that list up, I would've been curious. I also haven't said that I consider Bones0 an intelligent poster. That's just me though.

Anyways, Peach for top 3 one day! (Seriously. Maybe top 4? We got this.)

 

[S l o X]

the worse thing about fox at high level play is seriously that:
1. he has no range
2. he dies consistently from bnb combos from like the entire cast
3. MOST IMPORTANTLY his combo game is full of holes and sequence breaks because of the mechanics of his moves (reset on landing, SDI etc)

i dont actually think fox is 4th or 5th, no. But im not surprised he doesn't ever win either. He can be first on the tierlist but in our heart of hearts we know the truth

basically this.

 

[Bones0]

Also why do people keep putting marth so high even when there has been no reason to do so in around 2 years and even theory wose hes not as high as many place him.

Mew2King still holds it down.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Mew2King still holds it down.

Yea on fd, unless u r talking about his sheik

 

[Bones0]

He had a set vs. S2J recently where he used a good bit of Marth.

 

[Bing]

M2K's Marth is incredibly legit(I personally feel he should use it more then his Sheik)

Also as its been said many times, Marth only has 2 bad MUs, so he still deserves to be put up high, now I dont know if 3rd is the right place, but I'd say top 4 for sure.

Its either
Fox/Falco
Fox/Falco
Sheik/Marth
Sheik/Marth as top 4.

IMO of course.

 

[Mahone]

What are his 2 bad mus?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jigglypuff and Sheik, I'd assume.

 

[Wake]

JigglyPuff is bad for Marth? haha I really don't see how Puff wins that MU.