Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[DoH]

Has Fox ever won like a major? I think the closest thing was Jman at DGDT Jeff but that was more of a regional

 

[Cactuar]

PC won OC3 over M2K, last possible match of the tournament, Fox vs Marth on FD. Last noteworthy Fox win imo.

 

[Bones0]

We just don't have enough Fox players guys!

Spoiler

 

[choknater]

PC won OC3 over M2K, last possible match of the tournament, Fox vs Marth on FD. Last noteworthy Fox win imo.

i still think Jman and Lucky getting top 2 at don't go down there jeff was very notable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

DGDTJ was nice but was missing M2K, Mango (Scorpion Master and Mango are different players), Armada, and Dr. Peepee.

OC3, conversely, had most of the top players of its time at it (all they were really missing was KDJ and Azen).

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

So we have come to the conclusion that

PC Chris is amazing

I like where this conversation is going

 

[ShroudedOne]

We just don't have enough Fox players guys!

Spoiler

Not going to really enter the discussion, but I could easily make another graph that says you're wrong. Besides, it's been covered. People suck. Horribly.

 

[Bones0]

Except my graph is based off of actual data...

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well then, Bones, reference the data. Gosh. Didn't school teach you anything? SOURCES, man, SOURCES.

Is this a tournament? Gathered from the list of entrants? Or is this from SSPD (whose data is kind of questionable)?

 

[Bones0]

It's from SSPBD. I don't see how the data is questionable at all when it's taken from a sample size of HUNDREDS of players.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Is every player who has ever entered a tournament included? Or just people from 2008 and up? I'm not saying that the data you'd get will change much (I don't suspect it will), but you can see the problem with including every single person who has ever entered a tournament, if we're supposed to be looking at the current metagame.

I dunno, I'm just not the type of person who is satisfied with just a graph (and nothing else). Don't mean to get on your case.

 

[odinNJ]

you cant seriously be implying that fox isnt widely played.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Is every player who has ever entered a tournament included? Or just people from 2008 and up? I'm not saying that the data you'd get will change much (I don't suspect it will), but you can see the problem with including every single person who has ever entered a tournament, if we're supposed to be looking at the current metagame.

I dunno, I'm just not the type of person who is satisfied with just a graph (and nothing else). Don't mean to get on your case.

I don't see how you missed it, but ok.

 

[Bing]

It honestly doesnt surprise me that Fox doesnt win many nationals.

I mean the characters requires such a high level of tech skill and just mental energy that by the time you get towards the end of the night, were(Fox mains) are exhausted.

Fox is the best character when you look at his MUs and abilities on paper, he is the best character, but because of the fact that he is controlled by humans with limitations, its holding back his true potential.

Thats just my two cents.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In that case, wouldn't that mean that top level play holds fox back? And therefore Fox shouldn't be number 1 on the tier list, because he isn't the best character under top level play?

 

[Deleted member]

In that case, wouldn't that mean that top level play holds fox back? And therefore Fox shouldn't be number 1 on the tier list, because he isn't the best character under top level play?

i'd give you a donut but i'm pretty sure someone would ***** about it.

 

[Bones0]

It honestly doesnt surprise me that Fox doesnt win many nationals.

I mean the characters requires such a high level of tech skill and just mental energy that by the time you get towards the end of the night, were(Fox mains) are exhausted.

Fox is the best character when you look at his MUs and abilities on paper, he is the best character, but because of the fact that he is controlled by humans with limitations, its holding back his true potential.

Thats just my two cents.

Every character is held back by human limitations. Why is Fox's difficulty discounted as a factor in his tier placement?

 

[john!]

bowesr is theoretically one of the top three characters, but he is too difficult for any human to play at that level.

if one claims that we should ignore character difficulty when making a tier list, then they should also claim that bowser is in the top 3.

 

[Bing]

lol what. I was talking about why(I believe) Fox never wins nationals...

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It honestly doesnt surprise me that Fox doesnt win many nationals.

I mean the characters requires such a high level of tech skill and just mental energy that by the time you get towards the end of the night, were(Fox mains) are exhausted.

Fox is the best character when you look at his MUs and abilities on paper, he is the best character, but because of the fact that he is controlled by humans with limitations, its holding back his true potential.

Thats just my two cents.

I hate this god damn argument

Especially when you watch late bracket matches and top Foxes aren't messing up tech skill any more than usual

They are just getting outspaced, outpunished, and just flat out ***** because they are the worse player

Does that make Fox as a character worse, or the players? I don't know. But I sure as hell don't buy that a Fox is more "exhausted" than I am if I just trudged through 20+ mins of Marth/Samus

 

[JPOBS]

fox just blows honestly. No range and dies on contact. 4th or 5th at best honestly

 

[Zoler]

fox just blows honestly. No range and dies on contact. 4th or 5th at best honestly

This.

Fox can't win a national.

 

[Bing]

I hate this god damn argument

Especially when you watch late bracket matches and top Foxes aren't messing up tech skill any more than usual

They are just getting outspaced, outpunished, and just flat out ***** because they are the worse player

Does that make Fox as a character worse, or the players? I don't know. But I sure as hell don't buy that a Fox is more "exhausted" than I am if I just trudged through 20+ mins of Marth/Samus

I lol'd at that end part.
And Im not saying its the only thing, or anything like that, I just feel that its possible that fatigue does have a factor on spacies performance. As it does everyone though, which I never said it doesnt.

 

[ViperGold42]

fox just blows honestly. No range and dies on contact. 4th or 5th at best honestly

you're kidding right?

 

[JPOBS]

the worse thing about fox at high level play is seriously that:
1. he has no range
2. he dies consistently from bnb combos from like the entire cast
3. MOST IMPORTANTLY his combo game is full of holes and sequence breaks because of the mechanics of his moves (reset on landing, SDI etc)

i dont actually think fox is 4th or 5th, no. But im not surprised he doesn't ever win either. He can be first on the tierlist but in our heart of hearts we know the truth

 

[Bing]

the worse thing about fox at high level play is seriously that:
1. he has no range
2. he dies consistently from bnb combos from like the entire cast
3. MOST IMPORTANTLY his combo game is full of holes and sequence breaks because of the mechanics of his moves (reset on landing, SDI etc)

i dont actually think fox is 4th or 5th, no. But im not surprised he doesn't ever win either. He can be first on the tierlist but in our heart of hearts we know the truth

I agree actually


Also you can post that there are so many fox mains over 90% of the cast but one thing that doesnt get mentioned is that we play each other in bracket so often that after round 1. like 45% of Fox mains(Who made bracket atleast) are gone. lmao

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

The thing that annoys me the most Bing, is that people focus on that extraneous bull**** rather than Fox's actual weaknesses. Like, you know

1) how he has the worst range of any top tier, making dash/wavedash back a serious vulnerability among other things

2) how his hitboxes are inconsistent (dair is finnicky, uair is SDIable, dsmash is ground techable, nair is CCable to deathgrab up to 50+ %, shine hitstun gets canceled if they touch ground out of the air, etc)

3) how lasers are high risk low reward, and a corner camping fox is essentially committing to possible death for 3-6% at many distances

4) how his options when dropping through a platform are limited; his low range often requires him to jump or dash->shield drop first, costing time compared to top tier tactics like Marth/Sheik's dropthrough fair, Falcon's uair, Puff/Peach's floating/jumping, etc. The end result is that his angles of attack are much simpler than other characters, and often relegated to the edge of platforms (particularly the space between the edge of the top platform and the edge of the side platforms)...making him even MORE susceptible to dashdancing

5) how he requires momentum to do anything useful, making a cornered Fox really susceptible. For a character that uses platforms so much, its amazing how terrible his options are if he is on the corner of a side platform with the opponent controlling center stage.

etc

That is not to say that Fox isn't a super broken god of Melee...he is (killing power, shield pressure, dashdance, ledgedash, bair, blah blah blah), but I don't feel his weaknesses are as commonly discussed as other top tiers (see: Marth's lack of active frames, Sheik's weak approaches, Peach's slowness, etc)

 

[ShroudedOne]

@JPOBS: Falco also dies on contact and is too slow to really get out of bad spots. But whatever. You're also saying that Peach is a better character than Fox (I think?), but I'm not going to get into that.

In my opinion, Fox's "highest potential" isn't a super technical Fox. It's a super lame one.

I also think Fox is really really really good at mitigating his weaknesses (besides the getting death comboed on, but Fox is really fast and can be good at not getting hit if people don't camp in corners like idiots).

 

[JPOBS]

You don't need to be fast when you can control the opponent's character from anywhere onstage. Falco does whateer he wants

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Falco solves all 5 problems I listed

Lasers give him range...and not only that, but it reduces the opponent's range because they can no longer even ****ing dashdance anymore
There is nothing inconsistent about Falcos dair or shine
Falco lasers are low risk (most of the time...or at least most of the time against 90+% of players) high reward (stage control)
dropthrough lasers are awesome
you don't need momentum to laser

Falco has problems of his own, but, they aren't Fox's problems

 

[Bones0]

When will people realize that Fox and Falco are nothing alike?

 

[john!]

wait, what?

fox is the blue one with wings, right? or is that the other one?

i never really got the hang of learning my animals.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@Bones: "Nothing alike" is patently false.

@TCB: Yeah, I definitely agree about his dair and shine, at least. Not sure if I agree that drop-through lasers solve this problem for him, but he has other moves which do, too.

 

[Divinokage]

Falco with red boots is pretty sexy, hacked melee ftw.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I'd probably main Falco if the one with a red jumpsuit was in default Melee

*swoon*

 

[Fregadero]

****ing falco. Everyone should agree that in todays meta hes above fox. Players and tournament results have shown this. Lets see if Javi can prove me wrong.

 

[ViperGold42]

****ing falco. Everyone should agree that in todays meta hes above fox. Players and tournament results have shown this. Lets see if Javi can prove me wrong.

what about Marth? I see MARTHa tied or maybe even high than fox at times.

 

[Bing]

****ing falco. Everyone should agree that in todays meta hes above fox. Players and tournament results have shown this. Lets see if Javi can prove me wrong.

Javi vs PP Apex 2012

what about Marth? I see MARTHa tied or maybe even high than fox at times.

Marth... no... he has very few bad MUs but he also doesnt have that many great MUs.

 

[Bones0]

@Bones: "Nothing alike" is patently false.

In what way are they similar? For every similarity, I can point out a hundred differences.

 

[Twinkles]

what about Marth? I see MARTHa tied or maybe even high than fox at times.

at the top of ken's game, and later at the top of m2k's game, you'd see marth in top tier

today's metagame? get outta town