Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Deleted member]

I think sheik is better than marth vs most characters which is why I usually use her now (which you agreed i should). Marth's a lot worse when FD is gone and high %s where you can't combo to a kill are removed (very common on dreamland).

only marth mains know how bad he is on non neutrals. Regardless of how good a players marth is, on a non neutral there is almost no reason to play him imo.

disagree, i know exactly how bad marth is on non-neutrals and in teams for that matter. his holes just aren't as obvious to inexperienced players.

i agree that sheik is better than marth and so long as players can ban FD i think peach is better than him too which would put him to 6th on my list. FD changes matches way too much and honestly shouldn't be considered a neutral anymore.

edit: i think you should focus on your fox more, probably sheik first and fox second for you. fox dair solves a LOT of your current problems as a player and marth solves none of them.

 

[Divinokage]

I thought you used Falco in addition to Ganon, now Marth too? lol

Well Falcon too but I'm just tired of seeing depressive comments about their character. If this goes on then I'll just get stronger with them and beat them at their own game.

 

[Strong Badam]

i just use dk

 

[KingofCereal]

except when you use sheik

 

[Bones0]

One more post 'til you hit super 13337, Strong Bad.

@Mew2King
Talk about how good late fairs are! :D

 

[ShroudedOne]

I highly doubt that FD is the one thing making Marth viable. Why don't you guys explain what makes Marth sooooo bad on other stages?

 

[Deleted member]

I highly doubt that FD is the one thing making Marth viable. Why don't you guys explain what makes Marth sooooo bad on other stages?

- has no answer to platform camping the top platform of tri-platform stages
- can't kill on most combos with simple DI up (just hold it), facilitated by platforms
- can't answer high recoveries, facilitated by platforms
- can't reliably combo from throws if DId into an edge cancel
- edge guards can usually be teched
- because of previous statements, lacks kill set-ups
- because of lack of kill set-ups, prone to shield camping when throws and juggles lose potency
- dedicated attacks make him open to good OOS platform game
- platforms aid combos on marth because his moves have slow start-up, makes previous statement about OOS platform game much worse for marth
- most of marth's moves start high, so he can't reasonably fall down to a platform without substantial risk. exceptions (dair, counter) are extremely risky.

because of marth's raw ability at juggling and dashdancing, most of these problems are completely solved or circumvented on FD. platforms strongly negate his positives and only amplify his weaknesses or create new ones.

 

[Dr Peepee]

- has no answer to platform camping the top platform of tri-platform stages
- can't kill on most combos with simple DI up (just hold it), facilitated by platforms
- can't answer high recoveries, facilitated by platforms
- can't reliably combo from throws if DId into an edge cancel
- edge guards can usually be teched
- because of previous statements, lacks kill set-ups
- because of lack of kill set-ups, prone to shield camping when throws and juggles lose potency
- dedicated attacks make him open to good OOS platform game
- platforms aid combos on marth because his moves have slow start-up, makes previous statement about OOS platform game much worse for marth
- most of marth's moves start high, so he can't reasonably fall down to a platform without substantial risk. exceptions (dair, counter) are extremely risky.

because of marth's raw ability at juggling and dashdancing, most of these problems are completely solved or circumvented on FD. platforms strongly negate his positives and only amplify his weaknesses or create new ones.

" has no answer to platform camping the top platform of tri-platform stages"

I disagree. FH Bair is quick, covers the immediate above and to one full side of any top platform(even Dreamland iirc) and a strong enough move to the point where Marth usually isn't punished if he connects with it. Marth can still jump out of this FH Bair onto the top platform if the opponent is stuck in shield when he sees this Bair coming.

Marth can also do a very delayed FH then DJ tipper Uair if someone is holding shield against Marth on the top platform. The long stun from the tippered Uair gives Marth enough time to jump again and catch someone trying to move away if they are, or set up a shield poke/shield break if they aren't.

Finally, Marth can change up his timing and just waveland onto the platform and grab or DJ just above the platform and land with a delayed Nair/Fair and he can control the opponent like the exchange was occurring on the ground. If the opponent can shield drop to counter Marth's attack(s) on their shield after Marth becomes level with them, then Marth could simply fall through the platform after landing his aerial and outspace his opponent anyway(unless the other character was Ganon[who Marth can usually wait to attack him from the top platform, as that's what Ganon would prefer to do against Marth instead of be pressured]....I can't think of any other characters that hard outrange Marth in the air that would especially want to be platform camping him).



" can't kill on most combos with simple DI up (just hold it), facilitated by platforms"

Probably true, but Marth gets a strong advantage in these situations against pretty much everyone anyway. Some characters Marth can't kill like that, most others can't combo into a kill either....how often are Puff and Peach comboed into a kill by anyone? Is it that big of a difference from what Marth gets?




"can't answer high recoveries"

What kind of high recoveries? Floaty ones? If it's a FF'er that has to fall, then Marth gets weak Fair/Uair into Fsmash/Dtilt. That's solid to me.

If it's a floaty recovery that's high, then how many characters can reliably stop that recovery anyway? Marth still maintains a strong advantage in these situations, especially since some of the characters that have to go high lose some big advantage that makes Marth's life even easier. Puff loses the good early jumps, Peach loses float and/or DJ, others might lose height to reduce ambiguous decisions like ICs side B....what am I missing that will give him trouble? Samus is pretty weak in the air overall so that's not a big deal for Marth....


"can't reliably combo from throws if DId into an edge cancel"

If one throw gives an edgecancel, then a different throw gives Marth a different advantage. If Fox could DI right and edgecancel on BF, then an Fthrow will put Fox right by the edge or a little past it offstage. A Dthrow would have Fox DI into Marth and be an easy tech chase in any situation that Fox could DI to edgecancel an Upthrow. Since this rule only applies to FF'ers I imagine, then this tech chasing rule should apply to all of them.

Oh, Marth and Sheik kinda too I guess. Well, Marth can DI out of most of his own throw combos anyway, but Sheik is a bigger deal regarding the edgecanceling. Mixing in the Fthrow/Dthrow on Sheik works just fine to avoid edgecanceling too and gives Marth basically free damage if he's reacting properly to techs.



" edge guards can usually be teched"

This is true depending on % and how the edgeguard situation is set up. Low percents obviously Marth can do whatever he wants. At higher percents, the opponent can tech. This leaves them more vulnerable to being side B ***** though(spacies especially). Puff doesn't really benefit from this too much as she wants to space her edge grab to avoid Marth's sword, but Peach coming from low can tech. That tech sets up a big guessing game situation, which is actually better than what most characters can do vs Peach up-B'ing really low. Falcon and Ganon can be spiked before they reach a teching point in many instances. Other times they just have to loop their up-B recovery when going low or go high, which, again, sets up for a weak Uair/Fair to Fsmash/Dtilt to free edgeguard/kill. Sheik usually isn't attacked when she could tech anything. Rather, she is attacked when she lands from up-B lag and occasionally on up-B startup from a point that she can not tech from. Only rarely will Marth try to spike or something and actually hit Sheik if she's up-B'ing right under the edge anyway. On Marth himself Dtilts/etc can be teched, but even if the opposing Marth walljump Bairs then he's still at a disadvantage and can die in one more move that isn't difficult to land(especially if the teched move was a Dtilt, gives Marth lots of time to IASA set up or an Fsmash or whatever).

Characters under the top of mid tier(excluding Doc) all can tech Marth's edgeguards too of course, but their recoveries are either worse than the high tiers' recoveries so they die easily anwyay, or they can't do much off of a tech and have to die in the next edgeguard situation. Pikachu is the only character that might break this rule but I don't know a lot about Pikachu's teching recovery options so I will leave that alone for now.


"because of lack of kill set-ups, prone to shield camping when throws and juggles lose potency"

Pummeling and throwing builds more % than lots of Marth's 1-2 hit strings he can do at higher percents anyway, so grabbing is good then too. Fthrow/Dthrow lead to easier edgeguards the higher percent is, which means it is more likely that a Dtilt/Fsmash will connect at an opportune time and kill someone earlier the more percent from the grab is tacked on. Lots of characters can't be set up to kill when their percent gets high enough(it happens to all characters sometimes), and Marth in this situation handles the opponent just fine since his edgeguarding abilities are so potent and all of the edgeguarding moves do more knockback.

Also, how would juggles lose potency at higher percents? Sure the opponent gets more time to plan out what they're going to do, but they only have so many options when Marth is below them as it is, so that shouldn't really matter. Higher percent juggles can also work the other way and allow Marth to set himself up into an ideal juggling position by the time the opponent has begun to enter Marth's zone.





"dedicated attacks make him open to good OOS platform game"

So don't swing so much. Delaying Marth's aerials(either on the platform, as Marth hits the ground, or just as Marth is leaving the opponent's range) gives him the ability to pressure his opponent well and make that large range effective over the course of a longer time period. Yes it is not constant pressure, but it allows Marth to keep his opponents from simply shield spamming against him while on platforms. When the opponent has to move from/around on these platforms, Marth can hit them then just fine as he outranges them from below/the side in the air usually.


Weaving away from the opponent also makes Marth much less "dedicated" to each attack he does and leaves him free to control the stage and pressure his opponent's shield at the same time.



"platforms aid combos on marth because his moves have slow start-up, makes previous statement about OOS platform game much worse for marth"


Maybe? I think he gets comboed hard on FD too because he just sucks when he's above people lol. Everyone is getting comboed hard these days though. *shrug*

If Marth is already on a platform and the opponent is below him, then I'll agree that he has it kinda bad. Shield dropping allows Marth to easily transition from shielding to getting onto the ground and possibly attack while doing so. This helps Marth avoid lots of sharking.

Edgecanceling Dair is also pretty good, as Marth would aerial directly out of the Dair(which is big) or DJ waveland onto the same platform or a higher one. Combined with his solid wavedash he can handle himself well enough on platforms if he doesn't panic.

Oh yeah, and he can retreating Fair at certain times as well, because delayed Fair hits through the platform, cutting off most approaches from below and in the front. Dtilt works like that too on a platform, except you don't have to telegraph it with a jump lol.



"most of marth's moves start high, so he can't reasonably fall down to a platform without substantial risk. exceptions (dair, counter) are extremely risky.

because of marth's raw ability at juggling and dashdancing, most of these problems are completely solved or circumvented on FD. platforms strongly negate his positives and only amplify his weaknesses or create new ones"

1st part:

I agree. Bair actually starts kinda low though which is underused.


2nd part:

He still juggles well on platformed stages. Spiking people into platforms leads to easy reads and followups that would be harder on the ground since the opponent can't tech roll as far. Also, his moves generally hit through the vast majority of any side platform if not all of it(YS Uair lol). I think Marth can actually juggle Puff better on DL sometimes because of how he can manipulate the platforms with his Uair/other aerials combined with solid wavelands, but that is still something I haven't tested enough yet.

Against some floaties, hitting Marth upward is all they can do in certain combos. Being able to land on a platform and avoid any real damaging followup is better than just having to fall back into the floaty's strong zone directly. Sure it may make his life harder against FF'ers, but Marth also gains unique combo tools on these stages as well, like the Dair tech chase or catching Uairs to Fsmashes through the platform that Marth would ordinarily not be able to recover from Uair lag in time to hit.


Having a strong waveland, Marth could also manipulate his position well through wavelanding on side platforms and getting his Fair out in new ways through them.


Yes platforms MAY weaken Marth more than help him, but on the whole I feel they mostly force him to play differently and explore new skills he wouldn't have to worry about in an FD-only ruleset. YS and FoD are small enough that his big range covers them well anyway, and on BF the top platform may be very high in the air, but the platform is also kind of small, so no one can really camp Marth effectively there. That stage is small too so Marth still has a great advantage there(including with edgeguards since there's less wall to tech). PS is like FD a majority of the time with platforms he can cover even in bad position easily lol, and most of the troubling transformations can be waited out. DL is the worst for him obviously, but even then a large stage like that allows Marth to abuse his great WD'ing and DD'ing capabilities better, so he still gets good benefits there.






I think Marth is fine on platforms in general and merely has to employ a different skillset to be effective on any platformed stage. This stage list favors him heavily, but it's up to Marth players to prove it. Hopefully I can do that soon enough.

 

[odinNJ]

Marths nair doesnt start high and comes out quickly

 

[Bing]

PP's post was almost an entire page.

Damn this man can write.

You should just make guides, post in the character threads and give people links instead of page long responses XD

 

[Dr Peepee]

I might do it eventually when I know more stuff lol.

 

[Bing]

Honestly you probably have more knowledge on these characters then any of the guides do... most are kind of out of date...

 

[KingofCereal]

I think PP's post can be summed up as "Despite any perceived flaws, Marth has answers and options."
To call him a bad character is a bit silly. Especially for someone like Marth who has demonstrated consistency and longevity.

 

[odinNJ]

Yeah, make sure your guides dont have yellow journalism.

sorry, i thought it was funny

 

[Deleted member]

" has no answer to platform camping the top platform of tri-platform stages"

I disagree. FH Bair is quick, covers the immediate above and to one full side of any top platform(even Dreamland iirc) and a strong enough move to the point where Marth usually isn't punished if he connects with it. Marth can still jump out of this FH Bair onto the top platform if the opponent is stuck in shield when he sees this Bair coming.

Marth can also do a very delayed FH then DJ tipper Uair if someone is holding shield against Marth on the top platform. The long stun from the tippered Uair gives Marth enough time to jump again and catch someone trying to move away if they are, or set up a shield poke/shield break if they aren't.

[20:05] mycatgoesmow: yo
[20:05] mycatgoesmow: the marth thing was generalizations, not solid rules lol
[20:05] mycatgoesmow: you went wayyyy overboard
[20:06] Kevin: i did it more for the people lol
[20:06] Kevin: also i wanted to see how much i knew about it
[20:06] mycatgoesmow: yeah but now i look like an ****** even though everything i addressed is a real issue for the character
[20:06] mycatgoesmow: >_>
[20:06] mycatgoesmow: lmao
[20:07] Kevin: yeah you did address real issues and i agree, i just wanted to give people the other side since they always heard negative marth stuff
[20:07] Kevin: didnt mean to put you on blast haha XD
[20:07] mycatgoesmow: no it's good, now we can go through it together in detail
[20:07] mycatgoesmow: it might actually bring up a lot of technical details
[20:07] Kevin: which i enjoy
[20:07] mycatgoesmow: which is GREAT
[20:07] mycatgoesmow: ideology expands skillsets
[20:08] mycatgoesmow: besides, no one puts me on blast even when i deserve it
[20:09] Kevin: haha well im hoping i expanded some good stuff today then
[20:09] mycatgoesmow: also i still think marth's bair to a platform is punishable on the top platform, while not so much on side platforms
[20:09] Kevin: i feel its better when using it on the top platform based on my experience
[20:09] mycatgoesmow: but i think it's limited to fastfallers pretty much
[20:09] Kevin: why?
[20:10] mycatgoesmow: well let's fay FFF is shielding on the top platform and you bair it, that's a WD OOS or a shield drop > followup
[20:10] mycatgoesmow: but slower characters don't have the fall speed to catch marth's FF and you get it early
[20:10] mycatgoesmow: the only one i'm iffy on is sheik
[20:10] mycatgoesmow: sheik's fastfall is actually REALLY fast
[20:10] mycatgoesmow: i think hers is 4th in the game after FFF
[20:10] mycatgoesmow: so she might catch marth also
[20:11] mycatgoesmow: bair is nice because you can hit it just so where you start the fastfall mid-move, hit with the very end of it and you should be good
[20:11] mycatgoesmow: but for the most part, it's going to be punishable by the relevant characters on players that don't understand that nuance
[20:12] mycatgoesmow: unless marth's opponent sucks at platforms, which is also entirely possible
[20:12] mycatgoesmow: most players are god awful at them
[20:14] Kevin: i dont think marths goal should be to hit someone on a top platform so much as harass them off of it safely. if they WD OOS that's fine to me, and if I space it well then I don't think ill get hit by any shield dropped move either. either way i could just do that super delayed uair i was talking about if they want to shield often and that works out fine. plus that DJ waveland/aerial mixup i was talking about adds even more depth to marths platform game if he really gets a solid read/wants that hit
[20:14] mycatgoesmow: hmm
[20:14] mycatgoesmow: actually, that brings up 2 points
[20:14] mycatgoesmow: the first being that they won't necessarily shield it, they could just jump
[20:15] Kevin: i hope they jump tbh
[20:15] Kevin: much better for marth
[20:15] mycatgoesmow: usually marth is excellent at punishing jumps, but if you dedicate to the wrong choice then you miss it
[20:15] mycatgoesmow: however
[20:15] mycatgoesmow: ...*
[20:15] mycatgoesmow: that might also be good
[20:15] mycatgoesmow: if you have no intent to actually follow but instead just go for stage movement, you can indeed trick people into moving
[20:16] mycatgoesmow: which is a totally legit strategy
[20:16] Kevin: yeah i usually want to just get them off of the platform without getting reversal'd on
[20:17] mycatgoesmow: the only thing that gets me is that if you do hit them, it's not necessarily the hit that you want, because marth gets punished sometimes even if he hits because it was the wrong hitbox, and dedicating to those attacks makes it that much worse
[20:17] Kevin: if they jump then i see if i can punish that
[20:17] mycatgoesmow: if you don't dedicate, yes that would be boss mode
[20:17] mycatgoesmow: but thats not really solving the initial problem, you're just tricking them into solving it for you
[20:18] mycatgoesmow: in a lot of ways, marth wants to dedicate as little as possible, so you definitely have the right idea going
[20:19] Kevin: well if the opponent were to try and stay up there forever until i came up, then i could just do those slow, empty FHs and DJ uairs or DJ onto the platform tricks that make great use of marths slow jump speed and slower moves to hold people in place and let their shields sink on their own so that when my moves actually do connect the pressure is that much greater as the shield will likely be tiny then and force and action. jumps like i said are punishable or allow me to set up much easier punishes because i can chase them with more certainty about what they can do, and going the other side than what i am pressuring allows me less stage than i had previously but not much of a difference honestly.
[20:20] Kevin: im assuming the first thing i said is the ideal strategy when using the top platform
[20:20] mycatgoesmow: ideal strategies are okay to shoot for
[20:20] mycatgoesmow: you should be able to trust your Plan A
[20:21] mycatgoesmow: what i like to do is land with a spaced fair/nair and fall through the platform with another aerial
[20:21] mycatgoesmow: so something like fair > fair or fair > 2nd jump nair back up, something
[20:21] Kevin: yeah i thought of that too
[20:21] mycatgoesmow: a lot of players just hold shield but it stays neutral
[20:22] mycatgoesmow: you forfeit little usually
[20:22] Kevin: if i got close enough to do this in grab range i could threaten very well with a grab mixup after the late aerial
[20:22] mycatgoesmow: i don't think the upair is the way to go though, you can't get the hit where you want it to while still getting the fastfall early, so they can chase you with the correct character
[20:22] mycatgoesmow: but i think the bair is a fine way to go
[20:23] mycatgoesmow: also going from a side platform to harass the top is a much better angle in general
[20:23] Kevin: hmm
[20:23] Kevin: it just feels telegraphed to me
[20:23] Kevin: maybe thats just on DL though
[20:23] mycatgoesmow: fastfallers can't chase you nearly as well
[20:23] mycatgoesmow: it is telegraphed
[20:23] mycatgoesmow: but it's acceptable IMO
[20:24] mycatgoesmow: in my head i'm working this on battlefield
[20:24] Kevin: ill try more Bairs when twitch goes high on me and see if my results change
[20:24] mycatgoesmow: KK proposed the idea to me in terms of fox camping sheik on BF, but honestly marth is worse than sheik at dealing with it
[20:24] mycatgoesmow: none of his real hits are threatening
[20:24] mycatgoesmow: unliek sheik fair
[20:24] Kevin: if % is high enough they could be
[20:25] Kevin: but sheik's moves dont depend as much i think?
[20:25] mycatgoesmow: if you're a god mabe you can do a risky upair > hit with it > grab
[20:25] mycatgoesmow: i think the goal is to just get them off the platform, and marth's air to air is weak in the raw
[20:25] mycatgoesmow: it only gains massive strength in terms of stage control, but that hit doesn't really give you one
[20:26] Kevin: ill see if i can record my marth tomorrow and try different stuff when hes on the top platform and send it to you. then maybe we can discuss things with more concrete examples?
[20:26] Kevin: in the meantime
[20:26] mycatgoesmow: sure sure
[20:26] mycatgoesmow: np
[20:27] Kevin: i agree with just trying to get them to move. thats all i normally aim to do because if i mess up the situation is really bad
[20:28] Kevin: slow FH, DJ delayed tippered uair leaves little room for the opponent to get away on any stage before marth can jump and attack again due to Uairs long stun time so i still think its viable but mayyybe not the main way to handle top platform abuse
[20:28] mycatgoesmow: hmm, yeah i could see that
[20:28] Kevin: basically, i could DJ Uair FF FH tippered Fair and sheild stab/hit most people because theyd panic after the uair
[20:29] mycatgoesmow: there's also that weird thing that mango does, where he'll SH OOS just out of range and drop through the platform with a follow
[20:29] mycatgoesmow: and he ***** everyone with it, including good players
[20:30] mycatgoesmow: i think we can agree though that camping the top platform is only viable for the few characters that can use their fast jumps and fast fastfall speed as a sort of vertical dashdance
[20:30] Kevin: you mean if he gets stuck in shield? i think everyones just afraid of him+he knows most people react to holding shield by attacking but he doesnt hold it quite long enough to encourage an approach so he screws with people
[20:30] mycatgoesmow: i think only fox falco falcon sheik apply
[20:30] Kevin: ah i see
[20:31] Kevin: of those, falcon feels scariest to me because of his huge dair
[20:31] mycatgoesmow: a lot of people evaluate mango in terms of reads and other abstract things instead of in-game mechanics
[20:31] mycatgoesmow: when clearly his in-game mechanics are his selling point
[20:31] mycatgoesmow: i certainly don't think his tactics are good because of "fear"
[20:31] Kevin: you think its something else that makes it work then?
[20:32] mycatgoesmow: yes
[20:32] Kevin: and i didnt mean to suggest fear as the main point
[20:32] mycatgoesmow: the fact that his **** actually works
[20:32] mycatgoesmow: and we should be stealing it hardcore
[20:32] Kevin: do you mean with any character?
[20:32] Kevin: or were you referring to his marth specifically?
[20:32] mycatgoesmow: i never see him screw with people, for the most part he just ***** them
[20:33] mycatgoesmow: i'll see if i can find an example
[20:33] Kevin: okay
[20:33] mycatgoesmow: yeah but what i see basically is he'll be on a platform and an opponent will attack at his properly
[20:34] mycatgoesmow: good spacing, etc
[20:34] mycatgoesmow: he'll go just out of range, then typical whiff >punish
[20:34] mycatgoesmow: it's just a specific type of that
[20:34] mycatgoesmow: but it's solid and reliable
[20:35] Kevin: well does he always do it when on a platform? does he always drift away? do they always attack? if they dont, what does he do instead?
[20:36] mycatgoesmow: it's only sometimes
[20:36] mycatgoesmow: for the most part he respects the upair tip and blocks it and then goes for it
[20:37] mycatgoesmow: i think mango also does the SH OOS drop through to replace actual shield dropping cause it's hard
[20:37] Kevin: who's upair
[20:37] Kevin: ?
[20:37] mycatgoesmow: marth
[20:37] Kevin: oh
[20:37] Kevin: well all i know is
[20:37] Kevin: i tried some of that stuff he does
[20:37] Kevin: and twitch started hitting me lol
[20:37] Kevin: so i quit doing that SH
[20:38] Kevin: maybe i just need to examine it closer
[20:38] Kevin: which i will soon
[20:38] mycatgoesmow: hmm
[20:38] mycatgoesmow: most of what i see is
[20:38] mycatgoesmow: marth does the upair tip like you said
[20:38] mycatgoesmow: he blocks it proper
[20:38] mycatgoesmow: followed by the SH to replace that platform drop
[20:39] mycatgoesmow: but most of them just let him get down as falco while resetting to neutral
[20:39] mycatgoesmow: but he doesnb't want to be up there
[20:39] mycatgoesmow: our assumption is that falco wants to camp there to abuse marth
[20:39] mycatgoesmow: so it'd be good to steal for your falco but not as marth against other falcos
[20:39] Kevin: well as falco i got hit doing it
[20:39] Kevin: maybe i was just predictable
[20:40] Kevin: maybe i should have let my shield get hit first
[20:40] Kevin: idk
[20:40] mycatgoesmow: yeah thats it
[20:40] mycatgoesmow: i'll show you 1 sec
[20:43] mycatgoesmow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSgPFOtiSA&t=57s
[20:43] mycatgoesmow: match 1 has a few examples
[20:43] mycatgoesmow: match 2 has 0
[20:44] mycatgoesmow: mart upthrows, falco is grounded, positional advantage for marth, falco blocks the upair, SHs to the ground away from marth, match resets from neutral
[20:45] mycatgoesmow: it's pretty simple but marth loses his method of applying pressure unless he gets the read, which is unlikely
[20:46] mycatgoesmow: next ine is at 1:19
[20:46] mycatgoesmow: one*
[20:46] Kevin: ice shouldnt have done that bair....well i guess it covered everything besides what mango did but thats not what marth should be doing there
[20:46] mycatgoesmow: agreed
[20:46] mycatgoesmow: okay, so what should he do?
[20:46] Kevin: oh lemme go back i was at 1 19 lol
[20:47] mycatgoesmow: the bair was a commitment and marth says that's a no-no
[20:47] mycatgoesmow: at 1:19 the fsmash misses but it's the same either way
[20:47] mycatgoesmow: respect block > SH down to replace shield drop
[20:47] mycatgoesmow: he even rolled into the shield angled down to cover shield stab
[20:48] Kevin: the first uair he did on mangos shield was great. had he done another sh right afterward he could have dj uair'd into mango and either traded(okay for him at 0 and maybe put him in time to punish mango flopping on the platform) or won outright
[20:48] Kevin: this is the first thing at 57
[20:48] mycatgoesmow: i think it would have been closer than the obviously wrong bair but i don't think a 2nd upair would have caught him either
[20:49] mycatgoesmow: falco gets to jump to a side
[20:49] mycatgoesmow: hard for marth to follow
[20:49] mycatgoesmow: it's actually a really solid escape, tactically speaking
[20:51] mycatgoesmow: actually, it kinda reinforces my original idea, that marth has difficulty pressuring the opponent on the top platform
[20:51] Kevin: well i could also have been okay with rising fair
[20:51] mycatgoesmow: ice just kinda put him there instead lol
[20:51] mycatgoesmow: i think if mango had gone to the right, yes fair would habe been good
[20:52] Kevin: but i felt that sh delayed dj uair could be effective because you can react to what the opponent does if they do something defensively automatically as mango did
[20:52] mycatgoesmow: it looks more like he chose to go for marths weaker bair
[20:52] mycatgoesmow: i think a FJ upair to catch the SH height was the right answer
[20:52] mycatgoesmow: but also a total gamble
[20:52] mycatgoesmow: i understand why he didn't do it as a marth player
[20:54] Kevin: i guess he could have reacted with that
[20:54] mycatgoesmow: yeah, at 1:36 it happened again
[20:54] mycatgoesmow: he did respect block > jump to marth's back side
[20:54] mycatgoesmow: but ice didn't dedicate as hard and it wasn't a total reset
[20:55] mycatgoesmow: still, the respect block > SH to replace shield drop > go to safer side to reset to neutral is both very simple and very safe
[20:55] mycatgoesmow: it looks really good IMO
[20:55] mycatgoesmow: it's also not technically demanding in any way
[20:56] mycatgoesmow: = good thing
[20:56] Kevin: i am uncertain about this but i will start trying to test it and see if i can do it after my shield gets hit only
[20:56] mycatgoesmow: it might be a complex set of reactions to go through so it might be hard to learn
[20:56] mycatgoesmow: but i think if you can mimic it, it'll be good all day
[20:57] mycatgoesmow: it's only bad vs WD onto platform > grab as far as i can tell
[20:57] mycatgoesmow: just make sure if you do it to fox, you go down the way he's facing and not his back lol
[20:57] Kevin: unless someone attacks onto the platform and starts pressure or goes for a grab
[20:57] Kevin: and i see
[20:57] mycatgoesmow: just going through the platform though, it's a really solid way to reestablish position
[20:57] mycatgoesmow: and attacking through the platform is super common
[20:58] mycatgoesmow: you could probably use this multiple times every match in a bracket
[20:58] mycatgoesmow: esp w/ falco cause you tech so often as a fastfaller
[20:58] Kevin: makes sense
[20:59] Kevin: ill save this convo and study how mango does it
[20:59] Kevin: see if i can use it and any variation of it
[20:59] mycatgoesmow: take that, kevin's point #1
[20:59] mycatgoesmow: LOL
[20:59] Kevin: i didnt say marth couldnt beat it!!!!!!!1111
[21:00] mycatgoesmow: you said he could beat it, which isn't logically equivalent, but it implies it
[21:00] mycatgoesmow: lmao
[21:00] mycatgoesmow: in logical equivalency, a statement doesn't necessarily equal it's double negative
[21:01] Kevin: well i still think he can beat it, but i respect its utility more now and have to make sure my counters to it are airtight
[21:01] mycatgoesmow: i think he has to play around it with baiting, and that it's a point where he can be easily abused just like ice was in those instances
[21:02] mycatgoesmow: however, tricking your opponent into playing to your gameplan is probably better than an actual solution
[21:02] mycatgoesmow: so kudos to you there
[21:04] Kevin: hmmm....well if they dont have an answer for my counters to it, at least immediately, then id figure that it was my gameplan working out solidly. maybe i just misunderstand how forcing someone to play my gameplan works vs.....beating a situation out entirely i guess or whatever the alternative to what you said is lol
[21:04] mycatgoesmow: you're the best smash intellect i've had the pleasure of debating with

tl;dr

- fox/falco is on a top platform in a disadvantageous position for any reason
- opponent attacks fox/falco through platform with a dedicated (not lagless) aerial
- fox/falco does a full respect block, preferably angling the shield down to prevent shield stab
- after hit connects with shield, fox/falco does a SH OOS and falls through the platform. this replaces the technical difficulty of a true shield drop. they fall to whichever side is weaker of the opponent character.
- because opponent character has dedicated an attack, he/she can't turn around to use the more effective aerial that would cover this escape
- fox/falco escapes and resets position to neutral in a safe disarming way that requires little technical ability

tactical goodness.

 

[Varist]

omg you guys are nerds who does nothing but type about smash for an hour

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That was a pretty fascinating discussion. Thanks for posting it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oddlly enough, I was trying to think of how characters with slow jumps (Peach/ICs/Puff) deal with platform camping from spacies/Falcon/etc. I didn't think Marth had this issue (mainly due to his uair/waveland grabs). I don't know if the problem will be as easy for Peach/Puff/ICs to deal with, but this gives me some general concepts to work with.

And thinking about this game is very fun. I'd forgotten how exciting it is, thinking of situations, coming up with possible solutions, then testing them out. I desperately need to do this more.

 

[Strong Badam]

tl; dr

 

[ShroudedOne]

Tl;drs are boooooooring.

inkiepie:

 

[Bones0]

Unfortunately, that entire discussion is almost irrelevant vs. people who know how to shield drop (all 10 of us :|).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Make it 11, I shield-drop.

 

[Wake]

I shield drop. 12!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Mango can shield drop too, so I doubt that conversation's actually irrelevant to you.

Plus, there was a lot of Marth strategy in there, which could come in useful when playing and/or fighting Marth. I doubt you knew all of that and understood it perfectly.

 

[Deleted member]

lots of people can shield drop in the same sense that they can powershield. but if you can take one small non-harmful deviation of it to land it 100% of the time, why wouldn't you? at that point it's just the superior tactic, even if the timing isn't as tight.

 

[Bing]

You can still get ****ed up shield dropping

 

[JPOBS]

I don't always agree with mow, but when I do, its because he says Peach > marth.

 

[Divinokage]

I asked Vwins he also thinks Peach is better than Marth.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't always agree with mow, but when I do, its because he says Peach > marth.

when you don't agree with me, there are 2 reasons:

1. i'm trolling
2. you don't know any better.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't always agree with mow, but when I do, its because he says Peach > marth.

*sigh*

I don't what you want from me Jack. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME, JACK!?

lol

I'm content with placing them at even.

 

[Bones0]

Peach beats both spacies head-to-head.

Yeah, I said it.

 

[john!]

why did you say it tho

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ok Bones. Now please provide reasoning.

Though it is a cute sentiment, and I feel like I'm getting trolled.

 

[Paju]

Lol good joke

 

[Geenareeno]

Not Falco. No whey.

 

[twizzlerj]

Peach beats both spacies head-to-head.

Yeah, I said it.

Armada shows us yes but in theory we say no

not agreeing just saying how it is

 

[ShroudedOne]

Editing because it's not worth it

 

[The Star King]

Shrouded you are too easily trolled

 

[ShroudedOne]

I know

ughhhhhhh

 

[twizzlerj]

lol i didn't get to see the post darn it but yea totally trolling unless your the better player there is no way peach should win against fox and falco they are too good