Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[100 proof%]

Yeah at sveet. Something i've noticed about fighting games in general recently is that yeah You can out think them on many different levels, but if they are outplaying You, hardly matters, even if it's just because You are fighting a bad peach who keeps getting like fair d-smash a lot, doesn't matter that peach will most likly win if You aren't doing something better or are poking a Lot(puff/marth/fox camping).

Partly why I think the metagame will be more about zoning, pressure, and di more than anything else. Its also surprising that ice climbers 0(really 20%)-deaths haven't lead them as far as anyone higher than them. Being able to boost a threat like that even if hard to land is something to respect.

 

[Dr Peepee]

In 2 or 3 years people will have figured out what armada is doing right now to be so consistently successful, just like for m2k and mango in the past. One thing I've noticed is his ability to maximize damage output. In a metagame where everyone good has damage output that is as good as his is now, would fox and falco be better or worse?

While were at it, lets be honest with the trends in our current metagame. For the past year or two, we have seen peach go even in her two hardest match-ups, Fox and Marth. We've also seen Sheik go even in her worst match-ups, Fox, Falco and Puff. At the same time we've seen foxes drop off and marth "go even with" (read: lose to) everyone in the top 5. Fox #1 is nostalgic and theoretical all at once, but results don't really show that right now. Maybe Javi will win FC, but until then, no.




I wouldn't mind doing statistics like this if we could qualify some of it. To compensate for how popular certain characters are over others, we should only count players that are over a certain Elo, say the starting Elo (1200).

Good post. Part of the reason Falco is seen as ******** right now is his damage output game is/was on the level of Armada's vs most of the cast thanks to the many talented Falcos that exist. If Foxes and Marths increased their overall punishment game then we may see the tier list change again. It'll take the right players though.


Also Javi ain't winnin FC ima see to that.

 

[Strong Badam]

no falco is ********

 

[JPOBS]

If anything, I see fox's total damage output decreasing, not increasing, as the metagame improves.

Fox combo's get broken by the DUMBEST things. SDI upairs, SDI dairs, CC nairs, shines stun ending on landing if hit in the air, and probably other stuff i cant think off.

As players start to incorperate all of things at once, sdi his drills, jump into his shine's on shield, cc his nairs -> death more consistently (and the upper echelon already do this), i see fox damage potential from combos falling significantly.

But he still has the best camp/keep away/first hit game in the cast so whatever.

 

[Bones0]

Marth is definitely not one of her hardest matchups, lol. It's the second easiest out of the top/high tiers (excluding the ditto).

Then what do you consider Peach's only losing matchup?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Fox/Sheik
Falcon
Falco/Marth/Peach

In order of difficulty. The bottom three are even/close enough to where it doesn't matter (I've been thinking lately that Peach wins vs Falco, but I'm not sure). Falcon wins by a bit more. Fox/ Sheik I think she loses by enough to where it's worth noting.

But yeah, Marth is no big deal. Just sort of hard to learn.

Oh. Puff. Eh. I don't know anything about the MU, but it's either impossible (for Peach), or Puff wins by a little. Take whichever you want, lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

wut about jigglypuff

 

[BlueFoxXT]

@grim

i guess if hes at the ledge he can bthrow, but from the middle of the stage dthrow nair probably kills first? im not sure, but both are easy to perfectly di since there is so much time... also im not used being grabbed near the edge cuz mario bros don't like the edge vs puff

all those kill moves are pretty risky and not the easiest to hit if they are just spacing out with bairs...

a lot of times i get hit with that ****ty hitbox of marios and i don't go anywhere anyway... i will admit that his main kill is wd back fsmash though, but my point is that its not as good as doc's grab fair and spaced fair

@ace

haha, ya, you can make it harder for them, but if they can react quickly they can get it... same with dthrow knee vs puff at high percents

also at low percents doc can dthrow dair if you don't di well, i think that does a lot of damage

didnt read any responses to this yet

while i agree doc vs puff isnt bad for doc

dthrow fair doesn't work on puff if you DI behind

with love,

norcal puff

 

[Deleted member]

sorry kevin, falco is ******** and the current rule set supports him immensely.

i do still think that fox is the best though. i agree that he can't play the combo game and i've thought that basically forever and that his punishment game is -only- as good as say ganondorf's. my top list looks something like this atm:

fox
falco
jigglypuff
sheik
peach
marth
ice climbers
doc/falcon, not sure which

marth is definitely peach's 2nd hardest MU after jigglypuff, we just lack the marths atm. the skill gap between the current marths and the top players of other characters is pretty damn big.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Marth is her second hardest? Since when? Did I miss something?

 

[Deleted member]

Marth is her second hardest? Since when? Did I miss something?

since upthrow > fair beats her entire character.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Um....?

Uh.....?

Erm....?

This is a new development that I hadn't heard of. Zant was talking about how Marth was super difficult for her because of uthrow, but I've never met a Marth who uthrows me. So...eh.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah the thing to do lately is forward throw > nothing > complain about it in the marth boards. again, huge gaps of skill.

 

[Geenareeno]

LOL best combo ever. But yeah Marth ***** Peach. PP should switch to Marth full time just to prove how good he is.

 

[Paju]

Marth is definitely not Peach's 2nd worst matchup. The disadvantageous MU's for Peach from worst to almost even are imo:

Puff
Fox
Falcon
Sheik (in NTSC, in PAL it's little advantage for Peach)
Marth

Puff and Fox are definitely the two hardest MU's for Peach. Puff is just stupid good vs Peach thanks to her air mobility. Peach also doesn't have any too good punishes for Puff's missed rests so she can use them pretty safely. Fox is very hard MU for Peach especially if the Fox decides to camp. Peach can punish Fox very well but if the Fox player just doesn't rush to Peach stupidly, there's not too much Peach can do to him, at least without putting herself into a very disadvantageous position.

I'm not that sure about Falcon as I don't have too much experience against him but he seems to have the edge on the MU pretty convincingly thanks to his speed and stupidly good grabbing game. He also has very good uair for juggling and controlling space over him and his nair isn't too bad of an approach/spacing tool either. Sheik vs Peach is very annoying MU for both characters from my experience. I think the dthrow and uair changes in NTSC are enough to change the MU from little advantage to little disadvantage for Peach. Not only does Sheik now have dramatically better grabbing game against Peach (in PAL you can just shield on high percentages and Sheik can't really do anything to it as the grab leads to pretty much nothing) but she also does get very good killing move in addition to that.

Marth isn't honestly that hard. He can pretty much combo Peach from 0% -> 70% without Peach being able to do anything but unless Peach eats tipper fsmash soon after that, Marth just can't kill Peach for a long time. Peach can approach Marth with turnips pretty safely and she can also use them to force Marth to approach. Imo the turnips are actually the defining factor of the winner in that MU. Without turnips Marth has the advantage but with turnips Peach has the advantage. Marth can punish Peach from pulling the turnipses but if Peach can bait Marth into thinking that she is going to pull a turnip and then she doesn't, she can counter the approach by Marth.

 

[Construct]

yeah the thing to do lately is forward throw > nothing > complain about it in the marth boards.

Permission to sig?

 

[The Star King]

You ask for permission? Tempted to sig that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But I wanted to sig it

 

[The Star King]

Okay. I give you permission to sig Construct's post.

 

[Bill_the_Duck]

Fox/Puff/Falco - Close enough that I think any difference is kind of unimportant, they beat everyone else generally

Marth/Shiek/Peach - Same deal. Shiek might have a very slight advantage over the other two, but w/e
Falcon - Not quite as good as the last 3, but hes in their tier

ICs - The placement of Doc in the ICs tier is not an insult to ICs, I think they're pretty good and viable
Doc - Yup, I think he's pretty good. Except, I think he gets ***** by Marth

Ganon - Good, but not great. These guys are like, barely competitive
Samus - I hate Samus
Pikachu - Not entirely sure Pikachu deserves being here, but I don't think it deserves to go down either

Mario - Like Doc, except worse. Still not bad though
Luigi - Like Mario, except boring to watch so I can't even formulate an opinion so I put him here
DK - Rofl, DK. Punch things in the face, I guess
YL - Not as good as the rest of these characters, or the ones below him, but I put him here because he can compete wth some High/Top Tiers

Link - Underrated imo, even though I didn't move him up because lol fox/falco/shiek=lose
Mewtwo - I think he might be a little better than this, but I don't like him above Link, so...
Roy - Trash damage output holds him back despite decent grab combos and having a good kill move.
Zelda - I don't think Zelda's that good, but I must be missing something so I put her here.
Yoshi - See "Zelda"

Ness - Trash character, but better than the rest of these
G&W - Kind of funny to watch, I guess, but not very good. Turtles.
Bowser - Has some decent strengths, but also the most weaknesses around.
Pichu - Would be better withou the whole "even when I combo my opponent to death I wind up at kill percentages"
Kirby - Kirby sucks

 

[Warhawk]

I would think that Puff should be considered closer to Sheik than the spacies...

 

[Max?]

If anything, I see fox's total damage output decreasing, not increasing, as the metagame improves.

Fox combo's get broken by the DUMBEST things. SDI upairs, SDI dairs, CC nairs, shines stun ending on landing if hit in the air, and probably other stuff i cant think off.

As players start to incorperate all of things at once, sdi his drills, jump into his shine's on shield, cc his nairs -> death more consistently (and the upper echelon already do this), i see fox damage potential from combos falling significantly.

But he still has the best camp/keep away/first hit game in the cast so whatever.

Good post.

sorry kevin, falco is ******** and the current rule set supports him immensely.

i do still think that fox is the best though. i agree that he can't play the combo game and i've thought that basically forever and that his punishment game is -only- as good as say ganondorf's. my top list looks something like this atm:

fox
falco
jigglypuff
sheik
peach
marth
ice climbers
doc/falcon, not sure which

marth is definitely peach's 2nd hardest MU after jigglypuff, we just lack the marths atm. the skill gap between the current marths and the top players of other characters is pretty damn big.

Goodpost, interesting list.

Doc/Falcon?

Also, Climbers > Falcon?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs shouldn't be above Falcon at the moment.

But they have the potential to be.

 

[Beat!]

Hey look, ICG is back.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Is it me? o_O

 

[Deleted member]

Good post.



Goodpost, interesting list.

Doc/Falcon?

Also, Climbers > Falcon?

Climbers vs Falcon becomes a MU thing because of how tournaments are skewed towards the better characters. Climbers are better vs fox (slightly) falco sheik and jigglypuff and worse against falcon marth (both slightly) and peach. Where falcon has serious issues with IMO the best 4 characters, climbers really only have one actually bad match in a character that's played much less often. To me the selling point is vs sheik and jigglypuff though, so I think ICs > falcon now.

I'm also unsure about falcon vs doc. I'd like to say that I think falcon is better but i think doc is really underrated right now as long as you knock off FD. Doc's weight is such that most of the good characters don't get much value from grabbing him, so he can play very shield-heavy in positions where it's ****ty to grab him. From there, he can revert to his excellent grabs vs WD OOS on spaced aerials. in the current meta, punishment-heavy styles are really big, so not getting ***** off of grabs is a really nice attribute and i think it makes him a better character in a relative sense. part of the reason i even had this idea was watching you and pc on the apex stream when you carried a few matches defensively. i understand that fox is fragile in teams, but that's where i started anyway.

 

[Beat!]

Is it me? o_O

N o.

 

[Max?]

Climbers vs Falcon becomes a MU thing because of how tournaments are skewed towards the better characters. Climbers are better vs fox (slightly) falco sheik and jigglypuff and worse against falcon marth (both slightly) and peach. Where falcon has serious issues with IMO the best 4 characters, climbers really only have one actually bad match in a character that's played much less often. To me the selling point is vs sheik and jigglypuff though, so I think ICs > falcon now.

I'm also unsure about falcon vs doc. I'd like to say that I think falcon is better but i think doc is really underrated right now as long as you knock off FD. Doc's weight is such that most of the good characters don't get much value from grabbing him, so he can play very shield-heavy in positions where it's ****ty to grab him. From there, he can revert to his excellent grabs vs WD OOS on spaced aerials. in the current meta, punishment-heavy styles are really big, so not getting ***** off of grabs is a really nice attribute and i think it makes him a better character in a relative sense. part of the reason i even had this idea was watching you and pc on the apex stream when you carried a few matches defensively. i understand that fox is fragile in teams, but that's where i started anyway.

Interesting. I agree with you tbh, and yeah, PC is pretty heavy. Wore my back out for the rest of the tourney

 

[Sinji]

Falcon beats Doc because his nairs and uairs can juggle him plus he can maximize combos with a start up downthrow.

 

[Max?]

Falcon beats Doc because his nairs and uairs can juggle him plus he can maximize combos with a start up downthrow.

Falcon beats Fox because his nairs and uairs can juggle him plus he can maximize combos with a start up dthrow.

 

[Sinji]

What I mean is that Doc will stay in the air making it hard for him to reach the ground because of the type of character he is, where as fox can tech roll and get out of the falcon situation with the proper Di considering that fox is a fast faller.

 

[Inty17]

Falcon Doc is not in Doc's favor. It just isn't.

 

[Andy Lawliet]

Falcon beats Fox because his nairs and uairs can juggle him plus he can maximize combos with a start up dthrow.

Doc can do what to Falcon? Utilize on his falling Speed and weight to do uthrow stuff? Edgeguard him?

Guess what? Everyone can. Even Pichu.

The difference between Fox and Doc is that Doc has literally no range and is slow both in the Air and on the ground. Meaning he wont ever get a Grab considering falcons playing safe using his speed and range.
On the other hand Falcon can punish almost everything Doc has using just bair, grab and uair.
He's got easy combos leading from above mentioned punish moves to knee and from their to either death or edeguarding and we all know docs recovery aint the best.
So Falcon just Needs to edgehog using invincibility to not get hit and knee Doc (if he even manages to make it back to the Stage)

Long Story Short: Falcon should -theoreticaly - never lose to Doc ever.

 

[ShroudedOne]

He wasn't saying that Falcon/Doc wasn't in Falcon's favor. He said that to show the poor logic in Sinji's statement.

 

[Inty17]

Doc can do what to Falcon? Utilize on his falling Speed and weight to do uthrow stuff? Edgeguard him?

Guess what? Everyone can. Even Pichu.

The difference between Fox and Doc is that Doc has literally no range and is slow both in the Air and on the ground. Meaning he wont ever get a Grab considering falcons playing safe using his speed and range.
On the other hand Falcon can punish almost everything Doc has using just bair, grab and uair.
He's got easy combos leading from above mentioned punish moves to knee and from their to either death or edeguarding and we all know docs recovery aint the best.
So Falcon just Needs to edgehog using invincibility to not get hit and knee Doc (if he even manages to make it back to the Stage)

Long Story Short: Falcon should -theoreticaly - never lose to Doc ever.

I agree with you sort of. I think Doc has really nice movement that I honestly compare to Marth. I'm a Marth main, Doc secondary, and I find their movements very similar. Point being, if a Doc has tricky movement, and is very smart about stuffing Falcon's approaches with utilt, ftilt, uair, bair etc, he has an effective combo starter.

Falcon's not the easiest character to grab combo due to his combination of weight and fall speed, but he's certainly a character that can be followed up on by the ledge. And, to Doc's defense, he can gimp someone FAR easier than Pichu. He has an amazing edgeguard game on Falcon, and it's way harder to screw up.

I think Doc loses this matchup because of the combo to combo ratio and the amount of the stage each character controls. Falcon's just a better Doc without a projectile and a whole lot more manliness.

Also, UpAir... 'nuff said.

 

[Andy Lawliet]

He wasn't saying that Falcon/Doc wasn't in Falcon's favor. He said that to show the poor logic in Sinji's statement.

oh well I thought someone was implying that after reading the first post above my earlier post.

 

[Inty17]

He wasn't saying that Falcon/Doc wasn't in Falcon's favor. He said that to show the poor logic in Sinji's statement.

Also, HI JAIYE!!!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hiiiii Evan.

 

[Strong Badam]

hi jaiye

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hiiiii Adam.