Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Warhawk]

Pretty sure Kage thinks G&W is underrated too and so do I. A lot of people seem to think he's underrated and I could see him being higher on the tier list. Not much due to his horrendous defensive abilities, but higher.

 

[ruhtraeel]

like you guys should actually try him out (not against Fox/Marth just when you start out)

he's got some really legit stuff

I think he does better than Link against a lot of people, he does good against people with no range like Mario/Doc, I could see him being at least where Roy/Zelda are, maybe higher (I dunno why Link and YL are that high except camping for YL, but I don't know anybody who plays them)


G&W on my tier list = tied/higher than DK
I will always have faith in the 2D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Everyone thinks G&W is better than the tier list states.

Then they realize that his "decent" offensive game becomes really shallow and counterable at higher levels due to its predictability.

 

[Divinokage]

Pretty sure Kage thinks G&W is underrated too and so do I. A lot of people seem to think he's underrated and I could see him being higher on the tier list. Not much due to his horrendous defensive abilities, but higher.

Ya perhaps, I played Joot and I was surprised by what he can do sometimes.. honestly it felt like I had a harder time against G&W than Yoshi. But that's just from my perspective/Ganon perspective.. I'm not sure what would others think about it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

GAW's lack of a tech roll is also troublesome.

 

[Max?]

he does good against people with no range like Mario/Doc

I'm pretty confident Doc ***** GnW. GnW's offense is really predictable and not safe at all (Usmash oos ***** him soooooooo bad holy crap). Pills and cape, lots of dsmash. If GnW has port priority you can't dthrow him, but that matchup is still 90-10ish.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Ok. Valid enough.



To be honest, I think Falcon beats Peach harder than Sheik. I'm also not ready (yet) to put Puff that high on the list of her bad MUs. I'd say:
1. Fox
2. Falcon
3. Puff
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Falco (imo, one of the MOST even MUs in the game [besides dittos] that no one talks about).

my thoughts

1. jiggs (atm this Mu needs some work done on it)
2. fox (bad but not horrible)
3. falcon (maybe bad, ever other day i switch around if i think this MU is hard or not)
4. sheik (she has a advantage but its not to bad)
5. marth (very close to even, at worst 45/55 really not bad imo just something u need to get use to)
6. falco (at times seems really tough but honestly as peach u just have to play smart and it is very doable)

honestly i am starting to think peach might be better then marth. imo marth meta has slowed down almost to a halt while peach's meta has been advancing steadily in the last couple of years, it has come to the point where everyone knows how to fight and exploit marths weaknesses. while i feel peach is far less exploitable just from a character standpoint. peach's better recovery, float canceling, and frame advantage is what i believe gives her the tools needed to be a better character then marth in the current meta.

editorial below: (just a thought which does not really effect my above post)

I believe the problem with marth is he was hyper developed in the earlier years of this game. b/c of that he has hit a wall much sooner then most other characters, and that is why he is preforming poorly compared to characters he is suppose to be better then. It is my belief that he is overrated in the current meta and should move down the tier list. The problem with saying marth should move down is that people have problems excepting that a character that at one time was #2 on the tier list (tied for first vote wise if i recall correctly) and the most dominant in tourney is no longer as effective. Right now there r no pure marths who r proving that marth truly is better then peach, and working under a theory he is better or looking at objective MU ratings alone should not be enough to say marth is a better character. there should be some proof/evidence to say marth is better and atm there is no evidence supporting this while on the other hand there is evidence supporting peach being better then marth
Now this is not saying marth does not have room to improve and that he cant once again rise up the list. Just he will need a truly great dedicated player who is willing and able to be inventive with him.

 

[Merkuri]

my thoughts

1. jiggs (atm this Mu needs some work done on it)
2. fox (bad but not horrible)
3. falcon (maybe bad, ever other day i switch around if i think this MU is hard or not)
4. sheik (she has a advantage but its not to bad)
5. marth (very close to even, at worst 45/55 really not bad imo just something u need to get use to)
6. falco (at times seems really tough but honestly as peach u just have to play smart and it is very doable)

honestly i am starting to think peach might be better then marth. imo marth meta has slowed down almost to a halt while peach's meta has been advancing steadily in the last couple of years, it has come to the point where everyone knows how to fight and exploit marths weaknesses. while i feel peach is far less exploitable just from a character standpoint. peach's better recovery, float canceling, and frame advantage is what i believe gives her the tools needed to be a better character then marth in the current meta.

editorial below: (just a thought which does not really effect my above post)

I believe the problem with marth is he was hyper developed in the earlier years of this game. b/c of that he has hit a wall much sooner then most other characters, and that is why he is preforming poorly compared to characters he is suppose to be better then. It is my belief that he is overrated in the current meta and should move down the tier list. The problem with saying marth should move down is that people have problems excepting that a character that at one time was #2 on the tier list (tied for first vote wise if i recall correctly) and the most dominant in tourney is no longer as effective. Right now there r no pure marths who r proving that marth truly is better then peach, and working under a theory he is better or looking at objective MU ratings alone should not be enough to say marth is a better character. there should be some proof/evidence to say marth is better and atm there is no evidence supporting this while on the other hand there is evidence supporting peach being better then marth
Now this is not saying marth does not have room to improve and that he cant once again rise up the list. Just he will need a truly great dedicated player who is willing and able to be inventive with him.

I agree with all this. I think we're going to start seeing more and more technical Peaches. I believe Marth has more potential that what we've seen from him lately. But that is just potential. In the current metagame he isn't quite as strong as Peach is right now.

 

[Varist]

I agree with both of the above posts, although my Peach experience is lacking. Any new style/AT you could squeeze out with Marth wouldn't carry him as far as Peach can still be carried. Peach has got a really hopeful looking ceiling. Marth not so much.

But he still plays ****ing beautifully.

 

[Merkuri]

I agree with both of the above posts, although my Peach experience is lacking. Any new style/AT you could squeeze out with Marth wouldn't carry him as far as Peach can still be carried. Peach has got a really hopeful looking ceiling. Marth not so much.

But he still plays ****ing beautifully.

Well if you and I agree on something then it must be true.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm pretty confident Doc ***** GnW. GnW's offense is really predictable and not safe at all (Usmash oos ***** him soooooooo bad holy crap). Pills and cape, lots of dsmash. If GnW has port priority you can't dthrow him, but that matchup is still 90-10ish.

Wait, why can't you d-throw him? I thought you could just tech chase off the d-throw in that case rather than do the auto-combo (which is still good).

 

[Varist]

Well if you and I agree on something then it must be true.

 

[Blistering Speed]

GnW is awful

Seriously.

Talking about his positives doesn't mean jack. It's the terrible, insurmountable, glaring weaknesses in his character that mean he's not higher.

Also, can we please just ignore Merkuri? I'm serious, let's unanimously agree to ignore him. Maybe then he'll go away.

 

[Divinokage]

Well theory is one thing but actually playing a good G&W main is another. Have you done this?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Well theory is one thing but actually playing a good G&W main is another. Have you done this?

Touch of ad hominem, Kage?

Not that it's relevant but yeah, I have. The fact he doesn't have a shield or a roll becomes evident pretty early. He's also hideously light with a badly telegraphed recovery. The definition of a glass cannon.

 

[Divinokage]

Well shielding and rolling is pretty overrated with all characters.. it's not as used as it once was since people know how to deal with the situations given to them.. so if G&W is on the ball with his counter-attacks and subtle DDs then he can do pretty well, I almost lost to joot btw in a MM.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That may just be the player being good/you not knowing much about G&W.

Spoiler

Zelda ***** him, btw.

 

[Divinokage]

Well if he can play that well with G&W, isn't that the point of the character potential that someone actually understands? I played a lot of them and he was the one that gave me the most trouble, he's not hopeless you just need to understand that if you shield with him then you will be owned so you don't do that and play differently with the positioning. The reason why you would shield in the first place is because you are prone to an attack you weren't ready for especially with G&W he can't be allowed to shield. It might be a bit different for some characters but still.

He is easily comboable and dies pretty fast.. also his tech roll sucks a lot but most of his moves aren't bad... they can lead to good stuff. I guess you just need to do your best to avoid all these ****ty situations.. though I can see him do decent well overall, he's also untapped.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Yes, he has good offensive options and he's ****ed if he gets hit. That's what a glass cannon is. Arguing that his terrible durability and defensive options don't matter as much because you can just space perfectly, and not get hit, is ********.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Kage, shielding isn't important, wuuuuuttt

 

[stelzig]

GaW is at least pretty fun to play.

I hear there is this character Jigglypuff, it's 3rd in the tier list, but only one player is ever placing with it. It's place in the tier list must be lower.

Puff is indeed overrated
But Marth is underrated so it's not that I disagree with your sarcastic tone as such.

Hmm I could see Falcon being her fourth worst MU.

1. Fox
2. Puff
3. Sheik
4. Falcon/Marth
5. Falco (even)
6. ICs (Peach wins)

(in order of worst to best MUs).

Some people (read: amsah) actually consider the peach:sheik matchup to be in peach's favour
A little better for sheik in NTSC though. I would definitely call sheik easier than falcon.

lol @ ICs being 7th worst matchup for peach.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

GaW is at least pretty fun to play.
Puff is indeed overrated
But Marth is underrated so it's not that I disagree with your sarcastic tone as such.

i just made a kinda long and if i may say so myself pretty solid post about why marth is in fact a little overrated and why peach should be above him on the tier list. then i come back and see this with no explanation. so if u think he is underrated explain why dont just state it.

also @kage: i was talking to i believe prog and he told me the same thing about shielding not being so good. i believe he said something to the effect of "some of the best advice i ever got was to not use shield, b/c when u r in shield u limit your options". now while i see where he is coming from I think shielding or not is more situational based as well based on the characters shield (ex: g@w shield sucks so u dont want to use it much), and also the characters options oos r very important in weather or not shielding is a viable option. So while i agree shielding for some characters is bad, i would also same for some as long as u dont over do it it is a viable choice.

 

[Wake]

GaW is at least pretty fun to play.
Puff is indeed overrated
But Marth is underrated so it's not that I disagree with your sarcastic tone as such.


Some people (read: amsah) actually consider the peach:sheik matchup to be in peach's favour
A little better for sheik in NTSC though. I would definitely call sheik easier than falcon.

lol @ ICs being 7th worst matchup for peach.

I can understand it being in Peach's favor in PAL, but I can't see it being in her favor in NTSC. I'd like to hear the arguments though.

Also, it's listed from worst to best, ICs being her best MU among the top/high/B tier characters. I did say "Peach wins" in parentheses.

 

[stelzig]

So you're just ignoring all other characters in the game when placing ICs that high? Fair enough then, lol.
If you think it isn't that bad in NTSC either, then I think the more interesting discussion here would be why you think falcon isn't hard for peach

 

[Wake]

Yeah I'm ignoring everyone from Doc down because I didn't want to list them.

First, I would say that Falcon has a hard time approaching Peach, but I also think that Peach can't really approach him all that well either. Falcon is very fast, but Peach is also very very fast in close quarters. They can both do a lot off of a grab, though Falcon may be able to do more, Peach still can do a lot of damage from a grab. Basically, they can both combo each other very hard. I'm not sure exactly who combos whom harder yet.

Peach edge guards Falcon easier than he can edge guard her. Both characters in that MU should be careful about sitting in their shields because they'll get owned. Also, I think the MU is pretty stage dependent.

So yeah, I'm not saying that she wins. I'm saying that it's close to even. I think it's probably about as hard as the Peach/Marth MU (which I also think is close to even, aside from YS).

It's not that I'm saying that Falcon isn't hard for Peach. It's more that I think he isn't THAT hard for Peach.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think falcon is harder then marth atm. I also believe that fighting falcon is more momentum based then any other peach mu in the game, and the reason i feel its kinda bad for peach is b/c i feel the momentum is almost always in falcon's favor unless peach is hitting him. but as u said wake they both combo each other hard, so i dont think its terrible for peach but its def a hard mu and imo def harder then fighting marth. (but like i said i flip on that MU a lot)


also stelzig i want to hear what reasons/evidence u have that shows marth is underrated. i am curious why u think that.

 

[Wake]

I flip on both of them too. I guess sometimes I'm just in that Marth and Falcon killing mood, and other times they just wreck me haaaa.

I agree with the momentum part too. Maybe it's harder for Peach to keep the momentum and/or harder to stop Falcon when he has momentum.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i meant i flip on the falcon mu a lot. like at times i could almost swear its in peach's favor, later i almost feel like its unwinnable. but atm i feel its a falcon advantage but very doable for peach

also recently i have been having a much better time fighting marth. like as long as i think while fighting a marth and dont just go into auto pilot i feel pretty good against him. not saying the mu isnt annoying but as long as i remember to stay on the ground and keep moving with dash dance and wavedashing i feel i can get the upper hand on marth. (but since peach trades a lot and he can combo her kinda hard at lower %s this mu always seems kinda close even when i got it in hand)

edit responding to your edit: I just feel like if there was a momentum meter which u could see, it would almost always be on falcons side. i think its just his speed and dash dance camp is so annoying for peach, that as peach u just feel u r fighting a uphill battle. the best thing to do is stay calm pay attention and take advantage of every chance u get, dont get me wrong thats vague advice and i have more precise things to say but i dont feel like writing a whole mu essay here. Also i feel the ideas i have in that mu r hard to explain in writing.

 

[stelzig]

Yeah I'm ignoring everyone from Doc down because I didn't want to list them.

In that case I still think you put ICs too high. (I know peach isn't as derpish a win against ICs as some people think, but she still wins that pretty convincingly)

Falcon being so fast and killing peach so early and with an easy setup makes him win that matchup IMO. He's definitely better against peach than marth who on the other hand lacks the abbility to KO peach easily and still gets edgeguarded and combo'd quite badly. Having thought armada who appearently loves the matchup may make me slightly biased on how strong peach is against marth though

N.A: It quite simply comes down to the matchup talk that someone else also already mentioned. People often say that marth is bad, but then when they talk about his individual matchups he's never really losing them or at least not losing them very badly (meaning he can hold his own against everyone). In addition to that he is also good against spacies. It's not so important to crush any matchups, but it is important to be able to manage every matchup.

Compared to peach for instance, I do not think marth has any single matchup that is as hard as some of the counters to peach.

Edit: It would actually be quite interesting to hear people comment on the matchups these marth players lost in at apex, since appearently it is their performance at apex that clearly shows that marth sucks.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

but mu talk to be honest is conjecture. like just b/c marth is suppose to do well in all these mu's doesnt mean he really does do that well. like if he is suppose to be so good in these mu's there should be evidence showing this but in recent large events marth has clearly been having trouble so maybe the mu's r wrong now. just say his mu spread is good proves nothing except maybe his mu spread is out of date

 

[stelzig]

And if you can comment on his individual matchups and say which ones are so bad, then fair enough for your opinion on that. My point is that alot of people when commenting on his matchups are still not so negative.

Even if marth had 45:55 against every character in the game (which he doesn't) I would still have trouble considering him clearly worse than peach since he still handles them all decently and doesn't get countered as badly in any given matchup that you inevitably will stumble into.

In case my edit was missed, I would still be very interested in hearing what people think about the matchups that these marth mains actually lost.

 

[Wake]

i meant i flip on the falcon mu a lot. like at times i could almost swear its in peach's favor, later i almost feel like its unwinnable. but atm i feel its a falcon advantage but very doable for peach

also recently i have been having a much better time fighting marth. like as long as i think while fighting a marth and dont just go into auto pilot i feel pretty good against him. not saying the mu isnt annoying but as long as i remember to stay on the ground and keep moving with dash dance and wavedashing i feel i can get the upper hand on marth. (but since peach trades a lot and he can combo her kinda hard at lower %s this mu always seems kinda close even when i got it in hand)

edit responding to your edit: I just feel like if there was a momentum meter which u could see, it would almost always be on falcons side. i think its just his speed and dash dance camp is so annoying for peach, that as peach u just feel u r fighting a uphill battle. the best thing to do is stay calm pay attention and take advantage of every chance u get, dont get me wrong thats vague advice and i have more precise things to say but i dont feel like writing a whole mu essay here. Also i feel the ideas i have in that mu r hard to explain in writing.

Oh god, auto-pilot Peach gets destroooyed by Marth. That MU is like 80-20 for Marth haa!

And if you can comment on his individual matchups and say which ones are so bad, then fair enough for your opinion on that. My point is that alot of people when commenting on his matchups are still not so negative.

Even if marth had 45:55 against every character in the game (which he doesn't) I would still have trouble considering him clearly worse than peach since he still handles them all decently and doesn't get countered as badly in any given matchup that you inevitably will stumble into.

In case my edit was missed, I would still be very interested in hearing what people think about the matchups that these marth mains actually lost.

I'm also curious about the MUs that the Marth mains lost. I think that PPU lost to 2 Sheiks.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well i have not watched so many apex matches yet so i can not comment on that.

Anyway the burden of proof is on the marth players to prove he is not worst then peach, and atm they r not doing that. i am not a marth main so i cannot truly comment on his mu listing b/c i am not experienced in them. but i would like to ask u what peach mu's do u think r so bad? b/c she has no un-winnable mu's (at least thats the opinion of the peach boards) and her two worst MU's r jiggs (a mu that needs to be worked on and people have trouble putting a number to) and fox which imo is annoying but maybe not as bad as some peach's say. i have seen people go as far as to say its a 65:35 for fox but honestly that seems a little to good, almost getting into the un-winnable territory and its def not un-winnable. (of course my reading of what 65:35 means might be dif then others, i find that 70-30 is pretty much the border between can be won and shouldnt be won so imo 65:35 is very close to saying it should not be won which imo is not true)

edit: i am going to bed and sadly the boards will be down soon. (i dont see how that helps fight sopa but whatever) but i hope we can continue this discussion when the boards r back up

 

[stelzig]

Fox and probably puff are both worse than anything for marth. Especially in PAL, which is the version I play

On a sidenote I still disagree with people thinking that puff is actually that hard for peach and that armada gets dominated by hbox in that matchup. Every single armada(peach) vs. hbox (puff) match that I have seen have been pretty close. Including that crew battle where armada even seemed to play pretty badly (one Nair away from being even in stocks. Yes he did get alot of damage from a platform dsmash and a stitch KO, I am aware)

Edit: I agree about the boards going down thing being a bit stupid. Why punish the users of smashboards?

Edit2: On the whole "people say marth is bad, but his matchups aren't" talk: I remember spam_arrows even go as far as to say that marth was bad because all his matchups were 50:50 or something on the marth boards recently and like... Really? So he doesn't have a single losing matchup and that somehow makes him bad? He could only possibly be worse than other characters without losing matchups if that was the case. (edit: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13933512&postcount=1472 ... )

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Edit2: On the whole "people say marth is bad, but his matchups aren't" talk: I remember spam_arrows even go as far as to say that marth was bad because all his matchups were 50:50 or something on the marth boards recently and like... Really? So he doesn't have a single losing matchup and that somehow makes him bad? He could only possibly be worse than other characters without losing matchups if that was the case.

Incorrect x100000

A character with only even match-ups needs to work harder than characters who get countered, but also counter or hard counter many characters (Sheik, for example).

 

[stelzig]

They need to work harder overall, but that doesn't make them worse.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It means they will perform worse in tournaments.

 

[stelzig]

Not if they are good enough/aren't personally bad at certain matchups. You cannot blame a character for a loss in a 50:50 matchup.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Say you are in a tournament right, you main Marth and also in this tournament there is a Fox, Falco, 2 Jigglypuffs and a Peach.

Your first game is against Fox, you and the Fox player are perfectly even in skill and due to it being an even match-up you have to play really on point as you can't abuse Fox's shortcomings.

You end up winning, sending Fox to losers. Fox now has 3 potential match-ups left in the tourney in his favour. All of your remaining MUs are basically even. Who is more likely to win the tournament at this point, assuming all players have equal skill?

Fox.

Now, if we pretend that there is a Mewtwo player in the tournament and Mewtwo has some new AT that lets him counter Fox 60:40... Fox would still most likely win, even though he has a disadvantaged match-up while Marth (arguably) doesn't.

Does that make sense?

 

[Kal]

It's not as simple as either of you is making it out to be. What you are trying to factor in is practicality, which has nothing to do with matchups. Marth is hard to play because he requires a lot of precision and mental stamina. Most people lack this. M2K is a good example of a player who obviously had it, and he did well with Marth.

Grim, this notion that you have to work harder when you have only even matchups is absolute nonsense. Matchup probabilities only tell what your odds of winning are, not the difficulty of execution. Even if they did tell the difficulty of execution, you're failing entirely to mention the fact that characters who get countered and hard countered will have to work much harder to overcome those matchups, and much less to overcome their good matchups. So, once you sum **** up, it amounts to about the same thing. More importantly, a bad matchup is not an indicator that you have to work hard to win. It's an indicator that you need to be sufficiently better than your opponent to win.

stelzig, I mostly agree with you that Marth is drastically underrated, but it's hard to blame people. As I said, he's difficult to play at high level, and he lacks the overt raw power of Fox, Falco and Sheik. A character is, to a very large extent, defined by his matchups, and it's totally absurd to say that a character with nothing but good and even matchups is bad. But when there are almost no good Marths out there at national events representing the character, players start to come up with very broad theory to explain very short-term metagame changes.