Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Merkuri]

You guys should be careful when using tournament placings to determine how good a character is. Looking at the past nationals, Armada has really been the only Peach placing really high (top ten). So is Peach better than Marth, or is Armada just quite good?

No! Look at apex. Armada AND Vans and MacD outplaced all the Marths.

 

[Wake]

Hmm I could see Falcon being her fourth worst MU.

1. Fox
2. Puff
3. Sheik
4. Falcon/Marth
5. Falco (even)
6. ICs (Peach wins)

(in order of worst to best MUs).

 

[Beat!]

I think Marth beats Peach. Not necessarily by a big margin, but still.

I also think Marth has a better matchup spread overall, and better matchups against both spacies (IMO Peach Falco is even and Marth Falco is slight advantage Marth), which happen to be the two most important matchups in the game, considering their popularity (again, IMO).

I'd say Peach outplacing Marth at Apex primarily happened because of
1. Several high level Marths underperforming
2. Armada


Yeah.

 

[ShroudedOne]

No! Look at apex. Armada AND Vans and MacD outplaced all the Marths.

Ok. Valid enough.

Hmm I could see Falcon being her fourth worst MU.

1. Fox
2. Puff
3. Sheik
4. Falcon/Marth
5. Falco (even)
6. ICs (Peach wins)

(in order of worst to best MUs).

To be honest, I think Falcon beats Peach harder than Sheik. I'm also not ready (yet) to put Puff that high on the list of her bad MUs. I'd say:
1. Fox
2. Falcon
3. Puff
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Falco (imo, one of the MOST even MUs in the game [besides dittos] that no one talks about).


@Beat: Yeah, I'd agree.

 

[Wake]

Falcon beats Peach harder than Sheik does? Man you crazy.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

No! Look at apex. Armada AND Vans and MacD outplaced all the Marths.

Peach mains just happen to be better than the top marth mains.

Even Armada thinks the matchup is in his favor

 

[adechrist]

In my opinion, all of Peach's match ups (aside from Jiggs) are either a slight disadvantage or advantage to the point were it's almost even. Yes peach used to be at a large disadvantage to fox and others, but Peach mains are getting better. They're now living consistently to very high percents (depending on the stage of course) because of their improved DI and spacing. Peaches are SDIing fox's up airs, avoiding tippers, shine spikes, etc. If peach has so many bad matchups why are they placing so high in tournaments? It's not just Armada. At Apex MacD beat Amsah. Pewpewu, who made it farther than any other Marth, lost to Vanz. Over one third of the players in the apex 64 man bracket were fox mains, and yet when you look at the top 16, 3 out of the 5 peaches were still in it. To say that fox is such a bad match up can't be right or else peaches wouldn't be getting so far in tournaments.
Top 16: Fox(5) PEACH(3) Falco(2) Sheik(2) Jigglypuff(1) C. Falcon(1) IC(1) Dr. Mario(1) MARTH(0)

 

[john!]

it's debatable how badly fox beats peach, but peach mains almost universally agree that it is her worst matchup

@ shrouded and wake: why do you think sheik is tougher than marth?

 

[Krynxe]

Worst matchup isn't necessarily a bad matchup.

 

[Merkuri]

In my opinion, all of Peach's match ups (aside from Jiggs) are either a slight disadvantage or advantage to the point were it's almost even. Yes peach used to be at a large disadvantage to fox and others, but Peach mains are getting better. They're now living consistently to very high percents (depending on the stage of course) because of their improved DI and spacing. Peaches are SDIing fox's up airs, avoiding tippers, shine spikes, etc. If peach has so many bad matchups why are they placing so high in tournaments? It's not just Armada. At Apex MacD beat Amsah. Pewpewu, who made it farther than any other Marth, lost to Vanz. Over one third of the players in the apex 64 man bracket were fox mains, and yet when you look at the top 16, 3 out of the 5 peaches were still in it. To say that fox is such a bad match up can't be right or else peaches wouldn't be getting so far in tournaments.
Top 16: Fox(5) PEACH(3) Falco(2) Sheik(2) Jigglypuff(1) C. Falcon(1) IC(1) Dr. Mario(1) MARTH(0)

That's some real talk right there. At top I really don't believe that Fox is any worse for Peach than he is for Shiek. It's an uphill battle but it's totally winnable

 

[tarheeljks]

vanz played some sheik at apex (against pewpewu at least). can't just look at placings anyway, you really need to examine the bracket

edit: and there were 3 marth players right at 17, including m2k who bowed out of the bracket all together so it's not like marth made no noise

edit2: don't mean to imply the peach players had easy brackets at apex btw, macd beat some very strong players. just saying you have to look at that too across all these tournies

 

[Merkuri]

vanz played some sheik at apex (against pewpewu at least). can't just look at placings anyway, you really need to examine the bracket

edit: and there were 3 marth players right at 17, including m2k who bowed out of the bracket all together so it's not like marth made no noise

The point is that there well less Peach mains in the bracket and yet they made more noise than Marth mains. That says quite a bit.

 

[Varist]

I'd support tarheeljk's statement. You really do have to look at the bracket.

Moving even one of them around will change your results drastically. Especially if you are choosing from a pool of the top 16.

To provide one example, just swap two players. Put M2K somewhere far from Wobbles. The ripples from that alone would have ****ed up so many Foxes and Sheiks.

One tournament includes so many unequal variables that, while it's okay to form decisions off of their results, to actually take them seriously enough to claim that PLACINGS are the be-all and end-all of tier decisions is cancerous.

 

[Merkuri]

I'd support tarheeljk's statement. You really do have to look at the bracket.

Moving even one of them around will change your results drastically. Especially if you are choosing from a pool of the top 16.

To provide one example, just swap two players. Put M2K somewhere far from Wobbles. The ripples from that alone would have ****ed up so many Foxes and Sheiks.

One tournament includes so many unequal variables that, while it's okay to form decisions off of their results, to actually take them seriously enough to claim that PLACINGS are the be-all and end-all of tier decisions is cancerous.

If I put M2k besides Mango, Hbox, Armada or PP the results would have been the same so IDK what you're talking about.

M2k vs wobbles was a chance for Marth to win but he didn't. Just like HBK, Ice, Tai, Pewpew, etc could have done well using Marth but didn't. If Marth keeps failing then at some point you need to blame the character

 

[Varist]

If I put M2k besides Mango, Hbox, Armada or PP the results would have been the same so IDK what you're talking about.

If you seriously believe this, I honestly don't know if I should even bother discussing anything else.

 

[Merkuri]

If you seriously believe this, I honestly don't know if I should even bother discussing anything else.

What? You realize that M2k loses to all 4 of those players very consistently right?

 

[tarheeljks]

The point is that there well less Peach mains in the bracket and yet they made more noise than Marth mains. That says quite a bit.

that's fine, but it ignores the fact that more marths making bracket in the first place also says quite a bit. and like i said you're overlooking some stuff. the best marth player quit the tournament. one of the peach mains actually went sheik in a close set against a marth. some the marths end up playing each other on the losers side around the round of 32. pewpewu beat hbk who beat ice (who was put into losers by mango in round 2). i was present when the bracket was being put together-- even accounting for pool seeding it easily could have taken a different form and who knows what the results look like outside of the tip top with some swaps here and there.

the structure of the bracket plays too significant of a role to sort by placings at such a stacked tournament. even the bracket structure is a little noisy b/c it's contingent on pool seedings and the results of the pool seedings were kinda eh at each level due to the format


edit: you don't even need to move m2k far from wobbles. if he remains in the tournament he is favored, prob heavily favored, in every set until up to pp

 

[Varist]

What? You realize that M2k loses to all 4 of those players very consistently right?

You seem not to realize that we're talking about top 16 and not top 2. And if you can't come to understand what I previously stated on your own there's no point in forcing enlightenment into you.

New Strife needs to realize that he is not always right.

 

[LittleBoyLarry]

Great there's a new one now...

 

[adechrist]

My bad I didn't realize vanz went sheik. But still, there's a lot of evidence that peach is moving up as a character.

I'm not saying that only APEX 2012 is to decide what the tiers are. Look at past results.
Genesis 2 top 16: 2 Peaches, 1 Marth*
Genesis 1 top 16: The only Marth was M2K's, and Marth is his secondary. There were 3 Peaches.
Apex 2010 top 16: 2 peaches, 2 Marths and the Peaches placed higher overall (2,9 vs 3,13).
Armada won genesis 2 and Apex 2012. He also got second in Apex 2010 and in Genesis. And in all these major tournaments, the only Marth main to make it to top 8 is Taj, and he did it once (at genesis 2 he got 3rd)

As you can see. Peach is consistently doing better than Marth.

*I'm not including M2K as Marth here because he played mostly sheik at Genesis 2. I saw him play fox more than I saw him play Marth. In fact the only time I saw him play Marth was vs Mango game 1 and he rage quit while Mango still had 4 stocks. He switched to Sheik and almost won. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXpH6VaTwiE

 

[Merkuri]

You seem not to realize that we're talking about top 16 and not top 2. And if you can't come to understand what I previously stated on your own there's no point in forcing enlightenment into you.

New Strife needs to realize that he is not always right.

No you don't get it. Try being more open minded in the future. Had M2k lost in winners(all things the same, he should have quit melee just like he did after he lost to wobbles) so he wouldn't have wrecked losers as you're saying he would. Similarly I don't understand this notion that M2k would **** Javi. Javi rocked 1 fox slayer(PP) what reason is there to believe he couldn't do it to another.

And check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ty9RgrjXsk, if Leffen could almost beat M2k this way I don't see why Javi couldn't edge him out.

Edit: Also people M2k is closer to being a Shiek main than he is to being a Marth main. He plays Shiek the most now.

 

[Varist]

No you don't get it. Try being more open minded in the future. Had M2k lost in winners(all things the same, he should have quit melee just like he did after he lost to wobbles) so he wouldn't have wrecked losers as you're saying he would. Similarly I don't understand this notion that M2k would **** Javi. Javi rocked 1 fox slayer(PP) what reason is there to believe he couldn't do it to another.

And check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ty9RgrjXsk, if Leffen could almost beat M2k this way I don't see why Javi couldn't edge him out.

Edit: Also people M2k is closer to being a Shiek main than he is to being a Marth main. He plays Shiek the most now.

ignoring the random stuff about javi and leffen, i already explained that if you can't understand on your own how changing the bracket changes top 16 you're just not going to (at least atm, give it a few years)

 

[Merkuri]

ignoring the random stuff about javi and leffen, i already explained that if you can't understand on your own how changing the bracket changes top 16 you're just not going to (at least atm, give it a few years)

You're being dumb, which is why I asked you to be more open minded....but whatever.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Doesn't matter anyways, cause Falco goes PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW DAIR SHINE COOOOOOMBOOOOOOOO- dead.

Just Super Saiyan.

 

[adechrist]

Mew2King probably would've beaten Javi had he continued cause I mean he is M2K. lol. I personally don't like deciding who's better based off of friendlies, but M2K seems pretty confident

javi's super good, but you're ******** to say im a clear 6 and put him above me just cuz he beat pp in his best MU. i beat him in the friendlies we had with my marth and sheik using my 2ndary controller =/.

^ my favorite quote of all time

Mew2King mains sheik

i play marth for the fans

lol but seriously that is my primary reason, 2ndary reason is cuz im good with him but i still think he's a bit overrated. peach may be a better character. not on FD and not vs fox or puff, but at many other things maybe so

 

[Varist]

You're being dumb, which is why I asked you to be more open minded....but whatever.

You asked me to be more open-minded because I said this:

New Strife needs to realize that he is not always right.

You're just mirroring my ad-hominem, which wouldn't normally piss me off, because sometimes it's justified to discredit people. But just copying mine is lazy, you didn't even explain why I'm not an open-minded person. Please don't mirror me again by saying "i dont feel like explaining it to you youll never get it".

Calling me names doesn't really discredit me at all when your stance, as you've stated several times, is that you believe changing the bracket would not change top 16 results.

Your posting style is just an ill-informed "No u".

Because you refuse to bend to anyone else's opinion on your own, no matter how much sense it makes, I have to wait for other posters to come back up my side. That's the problem with your style, and it's why you're butting heads with so many people.

So I'll try to get my back-up now and resolve this. Does anyone else really think that

"changing the bracket would not change top 16 results"

 

[Xyzz]

I hear there is this character Jigglypuff, it's 3rd in the tier list, but only one player is ever placing with it. It's place in the tier list must be lower.

 

[choknater]

i heard somewhere that ic's raaaaapes puff

oh yeah

that was me

 

[Merkuri]

Mew2King probably would've beaten Javi had he continued cause I mean he is M2K. lol. I personally don't like deciding who's better based off of friendlies, but M2K seems pretty confident
^ my favorite quote of all time

Mew2King mains sheik

I'm sorry but friendlies mean absolutely nothing. Mango was beating Armada in friendlies and then got rocked in bracket. M2k beating anyone in friendlies is irrelevant. In I remember S2k saying that Everyone who played Javi in friendlies said he wasn't good.

You asked me to be more open-minded because I said this:

You're just mirroring my ad-hominem, which wouldn't normally piss me off, because sometimes it's justified to discredit people. But just copying mine is lazy, you didn't even explain why I'm not an open-minded person. Please don't mirror me again by saying "i dont feel like explaining it to you youll never get it".

Calling me names doesn't really discredit me at all when your stance, as you've stated several times, is that you believe changing the bracket would not change top 16 results.

Your posting style is just an ill-informed "No u".

Because you refuse to bend to anyone else's opinion on your own, no matter how much sense it makes, I have to wait for other posters to come back up my side. That's the problem with your style, and it's why you're butting heads with so many people.

So I'll try to get my back-up now and resolve this. Does anyone else really think that

"changing the bracket would not change top 16 results"

This would make sense except that I already explained why you're wrong, I gave an explanation and you ignored it by saying that there is no point talking to me. That is why I call you closed mind.

And I'm really not very bent on most of my opinions, I'm fully ready to accept that I maybe mistaken. I don't know where you come off making these wild assumptions about considering that I've only spoken to you in the past week or so.

Lastly I never said chainging the bracket wouldn't change the top 16 I said changing M2k around is likely to change very little. Big difference there.

 

[Varist]

never said chainging the bracket wouldn't change the top 16 I said changing M2k around is likely to change very little. Big difference there.

When your entire stance, from the beginning, has been

If I put M2k besides Mango, Hbox, Armada or PP the results would have been the same so IDK what you're talking about.

Let's look at that again.

never said chainging the bracket wouldn't change the top 16

If I put M2k besides Mango, Hbox, Armada or PP the results would have been the same

This is why no one likes you.

 

[choknater]

i wanna mm all the people debating the tiers

shoutouts to B tier

 

[Varist]

armada will suddenly post and put b tier on blast.

watch yoself chocknater

 

[choknater]

it's okay. considering he's just one guy and there's a ton of strange, irrelevant opinions in here, i think i'll come out positive.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd MM you for fun

 

[Krynxe]

Turnin' nickels into dimes

swag

 

[choknater]

aw yea swaq

let'z do it sveet

 

[ruhtraeel]

G&W = not as bad as people think

 

[Archangel]

G&W = not as bad as people think

AGREED! He is in fact WORSE!!!

 

[ruhtraeel]

AGREED! He is in fact WORSE!!!

HATERS

I mean, it's just if you need to play defence in any shape or form

but offence is so good

day-lasting hitboxes, tilts all ****, aerials all ****, throws all ****, long *** recovery, pseudo-rest attack, f-smash is long as hell and powerful

his jab is like Falcon's gentleman, AFAIK if you throw out an (l-cancellable) aerial and then a jab there's not much they can do about it


PP thinks G&W isn't as bad as people think too

 

[Max?]

GnW is awful