Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't understand why you think limiting the number of spawns to anything more than zero eliminates the "luck" of having an item drop nearby. It's basically like this:

*item drops
*do you want this item?
- yes
...*are you able to reach it before the opponent?
...- yes (grab it)
...- no (do something else)
- no
...*grab it anyway and toss it away
...*ignore it

The line in bold is all that matters. Whether there's three spawn points, or thirty, that's the single condition that determines the "luck" of the item spawn. As long as even a single spawn point exists, this question can work both ways and be "lucky" for one side or the other. Therefore, you might as well enable many spawn points to make things more interesting.

Luck can be predicted better with fewer variables. For example, if I said I was thinking of a whole number between and including 1 and 2, you would be more likely to guess right than say if I said a number between and including 1 and 100.

If there are only three spawn points, players will have a 1 in 3 chance of guessing where the item will spawn, where as having more makes them less likely to predict it and makes the game more luck dependent than skill dependent. Of course, only spawning in a single place would be the least luck-based option, but will probably (unfortunately) result in camping.

 

[Tesh]

What is so wrong about camping/stage control? As long as you don't force it to spawn at the easiest spot to camp (next to the ledge, under a platform), why is it so wrong to have players fight for control of THE spawn point?

 

[Luxor]

Tesh understands. Stage control is a part of Brawl, controlling a spawn point is simply more extreme than controlling 2/3 of the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What is so wrong about camping/stage control? As long as you don't force it to spawn at the easiest spot to camp (next to the ledge, under a platform), why is it so wrong to have players fight for control of THE spawn point?

It's boring.

Tesh understands. Stage control is a part of Brawl, controlling a spawn point is simply more extreme than controlling 2/3 of the stage.

Tripping is also a part of Brawl.

Nah, seriously though, there isn't really anything wrong with camping. But over-centralizing gameplay on a particular aspect will turn Brawl into a different game.

And the way I have set up the spawn points still involves camping, just to a lesser extent.

 

[Sleek Media]

I still don't understand what your goal is. What is more important to you: preventing camping, or preventing luck? You can't totally eliminate both.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I still don't understand what your goal is. What is more important to you: preventing camping, or preventing luck? You can't totally eliminate both.

Luck is far worse then camping, what kind of question is this.

Unless it's unbeatable camping, which is a different story.

 

[Sleek Media]

Although I have terrible luck, I would prefer the items be totally random. Makes it more interesting and dramatic. How am I supposed to zone MK out of a handful of spawn points, anyway?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Although I have terrible luck, I would prefer the items be totally random. Makes it more interesting and dramatic. How am I supposed to zone MK out of a handful of spawn points, anyway?

You know what'd make professional basketball more interesting and dramatic? If the balls randomly exploded as you take a shot.

 

[Sleek Media]

You know what'd make professional basketball more interesting and dramatic? If the balls randomly exploded as you take a shot.

You know what would take things out of context? That post, right there.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

You know what would take things out of context? That post, right there.

Not really, imagine your in grand finals, and theres like 20 spawn points, your chaingrabbing somebody or spacing and throwing out moves maybe, and randomly, an item falls in front of your move and it explodes, killing you, making you lose.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know what would take things out of context? That post, right there.

No, actually, it wasn't out of context. The rest of your post mentioned you having terrible luck, preferring items to be totally random and you being unable to zone MK out of a handful of spawn points. None of those have any relation to what I quoted.

Oh, and with your comment "How am I supposed to zone MK out of a handful of spawn points", you can't because he is Meta-Knight.

Not really, imagine your in grand finals, and theres like 20 spawn points, your chaingrabbing somebody or spacing and throwing out moves maybe, and randomly, an item falls in front of your move and it explodes, killing you, making you lose.

QFT.

 

[Sleek Media]

Oh, and with your comment "How am I supposed to zone MK out of a handful of spawn points", you can't because he is Meta-Knight.

So, instead of having the chance of an item randomly dropping close enough for me to actually pick it up, I forfeit all items to MK automatically? That sounds like fun.

Not really, imagine your in grand finals, and theres like 20 spawn points, your chaingrabbing somebody or spacing and throwing out moves maybe, and randomly, an item falls in front of your move and it explodes, killing you, making you lose.

This old excuse doesn't fly anymore. The point of setting all spawn points above the stage is specifically to prevent that from happening. They don't that fast, and I don't think they allow bob-ombs anyway.

 

[Life]

I like how a simple look at the OP would pretty clearly show that, barring Sandbag (which barely does anything), no items allowed in round 1 are capable of activating by dropping in front of you while you're Falcon Punching or whatever. Even the relatively-harmless Metal Box is put in Counterpick simply for this quality.

And yet people still cite that as a reason why items are uncompetitive. <_<

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So, instead of having the chance of an item randomly dropping close enough for me to actually pick it up, I forfeit all items to MK automatically? That sounds like fun.

Yep. That's because this is a competitive game. If you are forfeiting the items to Meta Knight, it's called being OUT-PLAYED. If the Meta Knight player is playing better than you and getting all the items, why the heck should YOU randomly get an item to beat him?

 

[link2702]

Yep. That's because this is a competitive game.

i just lol'd when i read that.

 

[Sleek Media]

If you are forfeiting the items to Meta Knight, it's called being OUT-PLAYED.

i just lol'd when i read that.

 

[Blissard]

There'd have to be a whole new tier list for Brawl with items...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

i just lol'd when i read that.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/competitive
adj.
1. Of, involving, or determined by competition.

Brawl is a competitive game.

i just lol'd when i read that.

If you think Meta Knight's ability to camp item spawn points is broken, then that is because Meta Knight is broken, not the item spawn positions. If the opponent is using a better character/is a better player than you, they deserve to get the items through their skill or character choice, not by chance.

 

[lpgautogas]

Nice post... interesting !

 

[Enzo]

this thread is lol

 

[Enzo]

this thread is lulz******

 

[Enzo]

oopppsss double post sorry ;;;;;

 

[MacNCheese.]

I like this.......
But MK would just be more **** with a projectile.....

 

[HeroMystic]

i just lol'd when i read that.

I lol'd when I read this.

What people don't understand when people make this phrase is it's dangerously easy to make a game competitive. As long as there is a clear winner and loser there will always be the spirit of competition. That meaning there will always be a "lol u lost n00b!" and a "**** you lets play again!". Even freaken hopscotch can be a competitive sport.

Yes, even single player games can be competitive.

Whether or not that competitive game is good is an entirely different story.

Also, GrimTuesday is completely correct in his synopsis, though I don't support modding Brawl to change how items are dropped.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, as much as I like there to e discussion in this thread, the current topic is kind of pointless because:

A ) hacking the spawn points is more of a side project for those who already play hacked versions of the game, not for people who are serious about competitive item play
B ) spawn points can only be hacked into zones, not points; simply, you can make a box in the stage space where items can spawn, but you cannot tell the game to only spawn items at 3, 4, or 5 X,Y,Z coordinates (although the sides of the spawn zone are indeed determined by X, Y, Z coordinates)

So... yeah. Sorry, but the best hacking can do is make a smaller spawn zone and situate it in higher and more central locations on each stage.

Also, the notion that activate-on-spawn items are disabled for round 1 play is correct; only neutral items are active round one, and all of those cannot activate on spawn. They must be used. AOS items are in the CP list, but those must be turned on by the players, so they assume responsibility for any unlucky spawns.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Also, the notion that activate-on-spawn items are disabled for round 1 play is correct; only neutral items are active round one, and all of those cannot activate on spawn. They must be used. AOS items are in the CP list, but those must be turned on by the players, so they assume responsibility for any unlucky spawns.

Does this not mean that a player who knows he is worse than his opponent can counter-pick every activate-on-spawn item to actually make it possible for him to win (via chance)?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Not with how the current CP system is set up. I'll explain a worst-case scenario for perspective.

As of now, the current 1v1 item list has only 2 items that can "Activate on Spawn" in the classical sense (because, technically, if an item spawns on top of you right before pressing A, doing a dash attack, whatever, you'll pick it up automatically): the Metal Box and the Gooey Bomb. Match one, both of these items are disabled. So, let's say we're in a set, and I lose match one to you. I can counterpick 2 items, and you can counterpick 1. So, assuming I want to do exactly what you say and enable the AoS items, I can eitther:

A ) turn on the Metal Box for my first pick, have you turn it off for your CP, and turn on either the MB or Gooey Bomb
B ) turn on the Gooey Bomb for my first pick, have you turn it off for your CP, and turn on either the MB or Gooey Bomb

Either way, only 1 AoS item can be active at any given time if you don't like them. Now, remember that the legal spawn rate for 1v1 is Low, which means that items spawn every 30-45 seconds. At most, you'll get around 16 spawns a match. In either of the above scenarios, there will be 19 items active (the 18 neutrals and the one I got to CP), which means that the odds of even getting what I want to spawn more than ONCE in a match is really low. How could I realistically expect my CP to be the largest determining factor in our match? It would have to be the perfect spawn in just the right place at just the right time for that to happen, and it would probably have to happen more than once!

In short, the way the CP system and CP list is set up now means that the odds of any single item, especially an AoS item, being the sole determining factor in the outcome of the match is so low that it would be asinine to rely on it to win you a set, or even a match.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fair enough.

I knew they wouldn't "turn the tide of a match", I was just curious.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I realise this thread is old, but the OP should probably be updated with the following:

Motion-Sensor Bombs DO detonate if they fall onto someone, I have no idea why you thought other-wise. That means they should be a CP item.

Bananas give every character an infinite on every other character and are a very powerful tool in general. Unlike Diddy's bananas, which aren't random, the item bananas are two powerful and should be banned because of the random advantage they can give.

 

[metaXzero]

I realise this thread is old, but the OP should probably be updated with the following:

Motion-Sensor Bombs DO detonate if they fall onto someone, I have no idea why you thought other-wise. That means they should be a CP item.

Bananas give every character an infinite on every other character and are a very powerful tool in general. Unlike Diddy's bananas, which aren't random, the item bananas are two powerful and should be banned because of the random advantage they can give.

Last I checked, doesn't the explosive mechanism only activated after a few seconds on the ground after being thrown?

And its not an infinite if it just goes to the end of the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Last I checked, doesn't the explosive mechanism only activated after a few seconds on the ground after being thrown?

No:

Motion-Sensor Bombs DO detonate if they fall onto someone, I have no idea why you thought other-wise. That means they should be a CP item.

And its not an infinite if it just goes to the end of the stage.

Regardless, they are too powerful to be legal.

 

[metaXzero]

Regardless, they are too powerful to be legal.

Their are items on neutral and cp that can be used to carry someone to the edge. And these can be caught too. I don't see any logic in banning something like bananas.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Their are items on neutral and cp that can be used to carry someone to the edge. And these can be caught too. I don't see any logic in banning something like bananas.

Elaborate on that.

I see exactly 0 items that can be used for that on the starter list.

And I see a few that could possibly carry the opponent to the other side of the stage, but those are entirely affected by DI and don't deal nearly as much damage.

And I think counter-picking is a stupid concept, especially in regards to items, and should be removed anyway.

 

[metaXzero]

Elaborate on that.

I see exactly 0 items that can be used for that on the starter list.

And I think counter-picking is a stupid concept, especially in regards to items, and should be removed anyway.

NEUTRAL ITEMS:

(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Bunny Hood) (Beam Sword) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

COUNTERPICK ITEMS:

(Assist Trophy) (Dragoon) (Metal Box) (Home-Run Bat) (Hammer) (Ray Gun) (Cracker Launcher) (Gooey Bomb) (Hothead) (Spring) (Unira)

In Bold. Thats as far as I see though. And I doubt at this time anyone will entertain the thought of removing CP from rulesets, let alone this one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

NEUTRAL ITEMS:

(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Bunny Hood) (Beam Sword) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

COUNTERPICK ITEMS:

(Assist Trophy) (Dragoon) (Metal Box) (Home-Run Bat) (Hammer) (Ray Gun) (Cracker Launcher) (Gooey Bomb) (Hothead) (Spring) (Unira)

In Bold. Thats as far as I see though. And I doubt at this time anyone will entertain the thought of removing CP from rulesets, let alone this one.

Warp Star: What? How?
Fire Flower: Learn to DI out of it/shield it/not blindly approach into it.
Green Shell: What? How?
Ray Gun: I know it can do this in Melee and 64, I've never seen it at work in Brawl though. I'm assuming that because of the decreased gravity, the ability to act out of hit-stun and the increased potency of DI it isn't inescapable, though.

 

[Ghostbone]

Erm

Bananas are infinite.
You can go to the end of the stage and back.
Or you can just stay in place.

And carrying people to the end of the stage with the ray gun works in brawl, and I'm pretty sure you can't DI it because there isn't enough knockback.

 

[metaXzero]

Warp Star: What? How?
Fire Flower: Learn to DI out of it/shield it/not blindly approach into it.
Green Shell: What? How?
Ray Gun: I know it can do this in Melee and 64, I've never seen it at work in Brawl though. I'm assuming that because of the decreased gravity, the ability to act out of hit-stun and the increased potency of DI it isn't inescapable, though.

Warp Star: Hit them with it obviously. Its pretty powerful. Of course, its stage dependent whether they will get knocked past the edge.
Fire Flower: Why'd you bring up shield it? You could shield everything. But you won't always shield. But eh. I'll drop it
Green Shell: Same as Warp Star example.
Ray Gun: Its still not that bad at it though.

I could see it being moved to CP, but an outright ban seems like way too much.

@ghostbone Never heard of banana infinites besides against walls. And looking around Youtube gave me nothing. And I don't even remember Diddy with 2 bananas getting an infinite. Some characters I could see with 2 bananas on the sides of the opponent having an infinite, but thats kinda asking a bit much.

Overall, even with ability to loop you to the edge, I still don't see why they would need an outright ban instead of CP status.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Here's a video of the foot-stool infinite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cGgZTvn794

I just remembered, Green Shell needs to be banned as well. It can be used for ridiculous camping.

 

[Ghostbone]

Warp Star: Hit them with it obviously. Its pretty powerful. Of course, its stage dependent whether they will get knocked past the edge.
Fire Flower: Why'd you bring up shield it? You could shield everything. But you won't always shield. But eh. I'll drop it
Green Shell: Same as Warp Star example.
Ray Gun: Its still not that bad at it though.

I could see it being moved to CP, but an outright ban seems like way too much.

@ghostbone Never heard of banana infinites besides against walls. And looking around Youtube gave me nothing. And I don't even remember Diddy with 2 bananas getting an infinite. Some characters I could see with 2 bananas on the sides of the opponent having an infinite, but thats kinda asking a bit much.

Overall, even with ability to loop you to the edge, I still don't see why they would need an outright ban instead of CP status.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6OejhNp9F4

There's also one involving footstools.
Edit: Grim's vid

Also warp stars are like incredibly easy to dodge.

 

[metaXzero]

Here's a video of the foot-stool infinite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cGgZTvn794
QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6OejhNp9F4
QUOTE]

Wonder why those didn't pop up on my searches ._. But you made your point (on the infinite possibly getting bananas on the ban list, not on bananas being used to get people to the edge. I stilll disagree with a ban based on THAT). Wonder what the metagame will look like in a year now that Diddy matches could devolve into both players trying to infinite each other. Of course, these days I rarely pay attention to regular Brawl.

Does Jack still check this?