Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Grim Tuesday]

Wonder why those didn't pop up on my searches ._. But you made your point (on the infinite possibly getting bananas on the ban list, not on bananas being used to get people to the edge. I stilll disagree with a ban based on THAT). Wonder what the metagame will look like in a year now that Diddy matches could devolve into both players trying to infinite each other. Of course, these days I rarely pay attention to regular Brawl.

Does Jack still check this?

I'm not sure if Jack still checks this, if not I'm willing to make an updated thread.

And that IS what the Diddy MU is like in Japan if I remember correctly.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well if doesn't happen all the time in Japan.
But it certainly has changed the outcome of matches.

The difference is people are too lazy outside of Japan xD.

 

[Browny]

ISP doubles was THE MOST fun tournament I've ever played in in my life.

Just throwin' that out there...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ISP doubles was THE MOST fun tournament I've ever played in in my life.

Just throwin' that out there...

:O

Was that online or here in SA?

I would LOVE if we could do more ISP matches here, I'd start playing Brawl again.

 

[Browny]

Reloaded 5 we did it when the EVAC/AVCON guys ran their own separate doubles tourney.

 

[Ghostbone]

ISP can be fun.

It's a shame Ganon ruins a lot of items xD.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Eh, at best he only moves up to D tier with the infinites, in my opinion.

 

[Ghostbone]

Though that's the point.

He's bottom tier without them.

He gains a massive advantage and moves up to sonic's level with them.

And it's random whether he gets them or not.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Though that's the point.

He's bottom tier without them.

He gains a massive advantage and moves up to sonic's level with them.

And it's random whether he gets them or not.

Why remove depth from the game just for an un-viable character anyway?

And Sonic is quite obviously too low on the tier list.

 

[Ghostbone]

Still I think Ganon with items is about as good as sonic.

Eh I dislike items for tournament play anyway xD.

Soooo much fun though.

 

[Browny]

Items dont change much lol

1vs1 ISP I could see being a little lame since fast characters could just run away and camp for the item spawns but for doubles its great. Characters are only overpowered for a short time until the other team gangs up on them and they will get it knocked out of them eventually, and even ganon wouldnt be made much better since the chance of him actually getting the items is very low, and very easy to knock it away from him.

It balances fine over the course of a match, good characters will get items to be made even more powerful, bad characters will get items to make matchups much closer to even. It works both ways.

 

[Ghostbone]

Items dont change much lol

1vs1 ISP I could see being a little lame since fast characters could just run away and camp for the item spawns but for doubles its great. Characters are only overpowered for a short time until the other team gangs up on them and they will get it knocked out of them eventually, and even ganon wouldnt be made much better since the chance of him actually getting the items is very low, and very easy to knock it away from him.

It balances fine over the course of a match, good characters will get items to be made even more powerful, bad characters will get items to make matchups much closer to even. It works both ways.

Well it's more like

You and your opponent are at 150% last stock(or however high you need to be in brawl these days to die), your opponent randomly gets an item, pressures you with it and kills you.
I'll admit that situation is rare but still :/

Also considering how great a pressuring tool something as weak as Peach's turnips can be, I really think items can give too much of an advantage.

 

[Browny]

Well of course it will never be entirely fair lol.

I think though it is fair enough to be used in competitions. It doesnt have to be high stakes $10 entry etc, just a side tournament for fun. It is balanced enough to not be in the mario kart category for tournaments imo Oh and its also really fun

 

[Jack Kieser]

Hey, there's actually discussion going on! lol Haven't seen that in a few months. I noticed someone asking if I lurk the thread still. Does someone want me to update something?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hey, there's actually discussion going on! lol Haven't seen that in a few months. I noticed someone asking if I lurk the thread still. Does someone want me to update something?

Yeah, change the following:

Motion Sensor Bomb - Counter-pick.
It can spawn on people's attacks and blow up just like every other explosive.

Banana Peel - Counter-pick/Banned
Every character can infinite with it, and it's a very powerful spacing tool.

Green Shell - Banned
It can be used for ridiculous camping.

Not sure if it's worth mentioning, but Ganon can infinite with quite a few of these items as well.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just ban them all

food can maybe be counter-pick

lol

But seriously, if the motion sensor bomb is counter-pick I think the smart bomb should be too.

And all the items Ganon can infinite with should be counter-pick.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Smart Bomb being a CP.

And I'm still on the fence about Ganon's infinites...

 

[Ghostbone]

I agree with Smart Bomb being a CP.

And I'm still on the fence about Ganon's infinites...

Well you can at least agree they give him a massive advantage, so they should be counter-pick.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well you can at least agree they give him a massive advantage, so they should be counter-pick.

That is only assuming two things:
a) He can get to the items first.
b) He can start the infinite with items in hand.

I find both of these to be pretty dubious :/

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, a couple of things:

1) The MSB can blow up before being thrown? I wasn't aware of that; I've done Smart Bomb tests where you spawn a bunch of MSB over one spot and throw a smart bomb at them, and they've never been set off before. Unless something just went horribly wrong. Which is a possibility.

2) Under no circumstances will the Banana Peels be anything OTHER than neutral, because I don't hear anyone calling for us to ban Diddy's Down-B. Item bananas operate EXACTLY like Diddy's bananas, and if item bananas are too strong, then so is Diddy. Either we ban Diddy or ban his down B. If we aren't suggesting that, than it'd be hypocritical to do anything other than leave item spawned peels alone.

3) It's been a little while since the list was made, and the Green Shell / Spring jumping exploits were found after the list was made. So... yeah. I'll edit those, for sure.

4) The fact that Ganon can do some pretty crazy stuff is actually completely irrelevant. The ICs can do plenty of infinites on every character in the game, with or without items, but we don't limit them. why? Because (in vanilla Brawl) their grab game is an inherent part of their character design, so either they are broken (in which case we ban them) or they aren't (in which case we leave them be). ISP Ganon is the same.

The reason for this is because the specific interactions that Ganon was programmed to have with each item are a part of his inherent character design, and ISP treats item mechanics as a part of character design, just like anything else. Ganon can do some crazy stuff, yes, but that requires a setup (namely, that he even GETS the item, if it spawns at all, and that he can create an opening large enough to facilitate the use of the item). In the same way that vBrawl players can say "just KO or separate Nana to stop the infinites", ISP players can just say "well, stop Ganon from getting the items in the first place (or ban them before the item CPs)".

In short, if Ganon can pull off crazy stuff in ISP, that's a character problem, not an item problem. Either his stuff is too good (in which case we ban GANON) or it isn't (in which case we leave him alone).

So... yeah. I'll get to working on that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ok, a couple of things:

1) The MSB can blow up before being thrown? I wasn't aware of that; I've done Smart Bomb tests where you spawn a bunch of MSB over one spot and throw a smart bomb at them, and they've never been set off before. Unless something just went horribly wrong. Which is a possibility.

Yeah, they do. I did a few tests with them legal and they spawned directly on my attacks and exploded. Dealing around 25% iirc.

2) Under no circumstances will the Banana Peels be anything OTHER than neutral, because I don't hear anyone calling for us to ban Diddy's Down-B. Item bananas operate EXACTLY like Diddy's bananas, and if item bananas are too strong, then so is Diddy. Either we ban Diddy or ban his down B. If we aren't suggesting that, than it'd be hypocritical to do anything other than leave item spawned peels alone.

The advantage given by Diddy's bananas isn't random, unlike the item version which can quickly turn the tide of the match by chance.

3) It's been a little while since the list was made, and the Green Shell / Spring jumping exploits were found after the list was made. So... yeah. I'll edit those, for sure.

Alright, cool.

4) The fact that Ganon can do some pretty crazy stuff is actually completely irrelevant. The ICs can do plenty of infinites on every character in the game, with or without items, but we don't limit them. why? Because (in vanilla Brawl) their grab game is an inherent part of their character design, so either they are broken (in which case we ban them) or they aren't (in which case we leave them be). ISP Ganon is the same.

The reason for this is because the specific interactions that Ganon was programmed to have with each item are a part of his inherent character design, and ISP treats item mechanics as a part of character design, just like anything else. Ganon can do some crazy stuff, yes, but that requires a setup (namely, that he even GETS the item, if it spawns at all, and that he can create an opening large enough to facilitate the use of the item). In the same way that vBrawl players can say "just KO or separate Nana to stop the infinites", ISP players can just say "well, stop Ganon from getting the items in the first place (or ban them before the item CPs)".

In short, if Ganon can pull off crazy stuff in ISP, that's a character problem, not an item problem. Either his stuff is too good (in which case we ban GANON) or it isn't (in which case we leave him alone).

So... yeah. I'll get to working on that.

The problem, again, lies in the randomness of the items. I mean, with those items legal it is randomly decided whether Ganondorf is middle tier or bottom tier. Considering that we should only have items legal that don't impact the result of games too much with their randomness, this is an issue.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yes, but this is ISP. The argument "but, random!" holds no weight or meaning here. The people who built, and the people who play, this format fundamentally reject the notion that random variables are inherently bad. The real reason that items are deactivated in normal play is because players do not think that mitigation of random events is a skill worth testing, along with skills such as discrete stage control and such. ISP players and TOs disagree, and assert that players can skillfully mitigate random chance and that discrete stage control is a testable skill.

So, to say that "but, Ganon gets better because of items!" in an item format is not only redundant, but kind of meaningless, because EVERYONE gets better with items. Ganon just gets better than most, but that's because items Ganon might be B-tier or higher, which will just blow some people's minds because their preconceived notion is that Ganon CAN'T be good... but in ISP, he is, and that's just something that has to be accepted as a part of the format (that tiers are different here from vBrawl).

Again, if a character breaks game balance on his/her own, then it's the CHARACTER'S fault, not the item's. We don't hear people complaining about how ISP Falcon is God Tier or how ISP Link is just too good; we're only talking about Ganon, and if it were a systemic item problem, that wouldn't be the case. If you want to say Ganon is too good in ISP, that's fine, but we don't ban individual items for non-global reasons except in EXTREME circumstances.

TL;DR: Random items are random. If you don't like that, why are you playing ISP?

 

[Life]

I for one have never had an MSB blow up upon being attacked (although I haven't used items in forever). Are you sure we're talking about the same item?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm going to re-test just in case. I'll do it after I get home from class today.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Whoawhoawhoa, discussion in the ISP thread? I've always been interested in this format.

Also, is the Green Shell exploit mentioned the levitation trick?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Levitation trick? You mean jumping repeatedly on the shell with dairs, right? If you're talking about something else, please do tell.

Also, I am playing Brawl training mode RIGHT NOW. I am Bowser, and I have 6 MSBs in front of me. Flame breath, as well as F- and D-smash, does not set off the bombs. I have spawned 5 MSBs and thrown a Smart Bomb at them. They do not detonate.

I don't know what kind of anecdotal evidence you guys are dredging up, but I assure you, the Motion Sensor Bomb DOES NOT DETONATE until thrown. At all. Guaranteed.

Also, I'll get to editing the OP now.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, OP updated with Green Shell ban. I couldn't remember if the same trick used on the Spring was an infinite stall or not, so I can change that if necessary. Also, added a bit about how the MSB can't blow up on spawn, so that should be dead.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wall of text.

You aren't listening to what I'm saying.

You're saying that randomness isn't bad, right? Then why do you have bob-ombs banned?
I'm just going to go ahead and assume that it is because they can fall down on you and kill you.

Randomly.

Conversely, the randomness of a beam sword doesn't really matter because it isn't as game-changing as bob-ombs. That's also why we allow Peach's down b, G&W's side b and several stages.

I am saying that Banana Peels are just as bad as bob-ombs because of how powerful they are. Even if you COULDN'T infinite with them, they are still one of the most powerful throwing items due to their tripping property. This puts them in counter-pick at least.

Diddy's bananas aren't a problem because the winner of matches isn't going to be randomly decided by who got more bananas.

The same problem exists with Ganondorf, it is completely random whether he is a kick-*** character or a crap character.

Also, I am playing Brawl training mode RIGHT NOW. I am Bowser, and I have 6 MSBs in front of me. Flame breath, as well as F- and D-smash, does not set off the bombs. I have spawned 5 MSBs and thrown a Smart Bomb at them. They do not detonate.

I don't know what kind of anecdotal evidence you guys are dredging up, but I assure you, the Motion Sensor Bomb DOES NOT DETONATE until thrown. At all. Guaranteed.

They explode if they are still falling when you hit them, I believe..

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

This only happens if you grab and drop them, mainly from being hit.
If you grab a MSB and drop it, it is immediately prone to explosion if hit.

If you want to test, grab a MSB, go high into the air, drop it(not throw) by getting hit or press z without holding c direction), and hit it.
It can go boom before it hits the ground...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Okay, you guys were right, I just re-tested.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@Grim:

The main offender of risk/reward imbalance, the Bob-Omb has a terrible habit of spawning in inopportune times and in inopportune places. The most volatile item in the game, Bob-Ombs take very little skill to use (just throw and forget), have immense power (causing 35% damage and KO'ing at ~65%), and reward the user for a very basic action (throwing an item) by giving out extreme damage and even more extreme knockback. The very semblance of imbalance, the Bob-Omb is banned from item play.

The MAIN reason that the Bob-Omb is banned is because it breaks the first criterion (risk / reward balance). Notice that, out of the three criterion for ISP's item list, "activates on spawn" isn't actually a hard-fast rule. The reason for this is because item spawning happening at all automatically effects the match (if ANY item, say a Lip's Stick, spawns at all, the players will have to reevaluate their actions based on this new, relevant information). So, the very act of playing ISP means that things will happen that have an immediate effect on you and the match, and these events will be forced on you whether you like it or not. So, the fact that a Bob-Omb might spawn in front of you is, on its own, not a problem; its the mechanics of the Bom-Omb breaking systems of risk/reward that cause a problem.

Take food, for instance. Food is legal, and can spawn on you. If you are launching an attack, you might pick up the food. It might interrupt your animation, and you might get a free heal. These are all possibilities... but one interrupted animation or a free 2% heal happening, maybe, 2 times in a match is NOT a big deal; the risk of picking up food automatically doesn't outweigh the reward of a free heal or the punishment of a whiffed attack.

Bob-Ombs, however, break risk reward entirely. For, practically, no effort, SOMEONE will get a kill. And it won't even be a hard one to get. So, Bob-Ombs are banned. Same with all bombs. Take, for instance, Gooey Bombs. They can activate on spawn, but are only CP. Because, even if you eat one during an attack, it's only piddly damage (the equivalent of most Smashes) and can't even kill until HIGH percentages. But... a potential 120% KO is still a fair risk, so we put the item on CP as a soft counter of sorts; if a player activates it, he knows full well the risks, and so takes his life into his own hands.

So, to sum up, "it activates on spawn" is NOT a reason to ban something, in and of itself. Only can we use that as a valid reason if the item already breaks risk / reward systems in place.

I'll get back to nanners and Ganon after I get some food.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Which is pretty much what I was saying... >_>

Bananas break the risk/reward as well.

Same with Ganon getting any item he can infinite with.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So... wait. Do you agree with me or not? Because I'm asserting that neither the bananas nor Ganon are problematic.

The bananas operate the exact same way as Diddy's. How can they be more powerful? You're asserting that they are by the mere possibility that they could spawn randomly... but that makes absolutely no sense. So, any character could get a banana peel. So? In order to do any infinites, you'd need 2 peels, which is so improbable, it might as well be impossible; remember, ISP rules dictate "low" spawn rates, meaning you're only going to get an item once every 35-45 seconds. Try keeping a single peel active for that long as Diddy. Now, realize that not only would you have to do that, but you'd have to be lucky enough for a SECOND peel to spawn in 45 seconds... assuming that your opponent hasn't already intercepted the first one and thrown it off the stage.

You see, peels are powerful because Diddy can spawn them at will. You need 2 peels to do ANYTHING realistically dangerous outside of single hits and glide tossed combos/setups, and only Diddy can reliably ensure that he has a constant stream of peels to work with. If anything, the very virtue that peels spawn randomly in ISP makes them weaker, not stronger!

And, as I said before, Ganon's infinites / tricks / all around ISP awesomeness relies ENTIRELY on him:

A ) getting an item he needs to spawn in the first place
B ) getting TO the item before the opponent, which is difficult considering he has one of the worst lateral movement speeds in the game
C ) making an opening large enough to capitalize on, one of Ganon's weakest areas of play (AA and Thinkaman can attest to that, with all the work they needed to do to get BBrawl Ganon even some SMALL approach options)

How is that broken, again? Or, at absolute bare minimum, how is that MORE broken than vBrawl Ice Climbers? Because if we can't prove that Ganon isn't AT LEAST better than vBrawl ICs, then we can't ban him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. Everyone in the game can infinite everyone else (except for Luigi) with a single banana.
2. I never said Ganondorf was broken, I said that in ISP, it is completely random whether he is a viable character or if he is a negligible character.

The main difference here is that while a randomly spawning Beam Sword will affect the match, the difference it makes isn't really that large. In the end, the better player will still win.

But with Banana Peels legal, people can consistently beat other people who are better than them simply by luck. With Ganondorf's infinite items legal, he can either lose to people worse than him or beat people better than him by luck as well.

The ISP is designed to be a relatively competitive mode of play right? I can tell you right now that those things aren't competitive and are the exact same reason we ban WarioWare and the Golden Hammer.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The reason we ban WW and ANY item in vBrawl play is because people hold the notion that random events == bad, 100% of the time most of the time. People who play or endorse ISP fundamentally reject that notion, so applying vBrawl logic to ISP isn't helpful.

Ganon is either bad or good by random chance... So? That's an inherent part of the format, as well as Ganon's character design. That makes Ganon a high-risk, high reward (well, marginal reward, because he's still not THAT good) character, and ISP accepts that. Either way, if Ganon is THAT bad of a problem, we DO NOT BAN INDIVIDUAL ITEMS TO FIX IT. Either Ganon, flaws and all, is legal, or he isn't. We don't just ban every single item he has an exploit with, unless EVERYONE (or a 51% or higher majority, at any rate) has that exploit, too. Example: the Green Shell. It's not banned because Ganon can do dumb things with it, it's banned because EVERYONE can do dumb things with it.

Now, you're also asserting that everyone has dumb things with Banana Peels, but let me ask you this: if that's really the case, how come EVERY vBRAWL DIDDY MATCH doesn't just devolve straight down to infinites after the first peel spawns? If they're THAT good, then Diddy's should be getting #1 finishes left and right, just like the ICs SHOULD. But, practice =/= theory, and in practice, games don't devolve to "camp for the peel -> infinite -> ??? -> profit!" every time, most of the time, or even SOME of the time.

Even if they did, that'd be a reason to ban Diddy, wouldn't it? That's the main point of contention I have here. I read your posts, Grim, and I NEVER hear you spearheading a "let's ban Diddy because he has broken infinites" campaign. Why is that? And, if you don't think his bananas are that broken in vBrawl, where he has a literally infinite supply of them, why are they broken in ISP? Because, POTENTIALLY once in an 8 minute match someone MIGHT, maybe, possibly get a peel and get one stock off due to an infinite?

TL;DR: Unless we start seeing this problem pop up in tournaments all the time, we have no reason to ASSUME that it will. Items stay legal until they are PROVEN to be broken, and if the only thing that makes ISP nanas broken is that anyone could get one, then they aren't broken enough to ban... yet.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you watch any Japanese matches, the infinite IS how the match-up is played. Why would I ban Diddy? He isn't winning matches through chance is he.

And if you banned Bob-ombs because of the unbalanced risk/reward ratio, shouldn't bananas be banned for the same reason? They can both take off an entire stock by chance.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I can't comment on the Japanese scene because:

* I don't pay attention to it
* I don't watch Japanese matches often
* The general SWF atmosphere about the metagame in vBrawl is (primarily) centered around American Brawl (though I don't necessarily think that's the way to go about things)

I just did some research, watching recent ADHD matches, and I don't see ANYONE relying on infinites with bananas. Like, ever. Just like I don't see tournament results with Top 16 Ice Climbers, even though their metagame revolves around infinites NATIVELY.

Also, I disagree with your notion that bananas == Bob-ombs. Bob-ombs can activate without player intent, AND they do lots of damage, AND they KO early, AND they are easy to use, AND there is little risk in using them (unless at close range). Those ALL add up to an unbalanced item.

Meanwhile, assuming that infinites really are the most effective use of bananas (just because its the strongest application doesn't mean its the most effective), you have to get the spawn, AND you have to actually reach it first, AND you have to land the opening hit, AND you have to not mess up the infinite, AND you have to land the killing blow. Sounds like a lot more work than just "throw and forget", like the Bob-omb.

So, I really don't think they are at all comparable.

 

[Gonzalo Barrios]

Excelent Read, Great Ideas.

I absolutely love the idea of balanced item spawns, it would change the metagame alot. I want this to happen Neutral and counterpick items? banned items? Excelent ideas!

This seems like Halo now, it would be cool if items would spawns on a set timer like, at minute 5 smash ball spawns/bomb-omb or etc. Cool. It would be a fight for power weapons and this will allow lower tier characters to fight top tier characters "with a tool".

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, unfortunately, we'll never be able to discreetly control item spawn times, especially without hacking. Spawn times will alway be generally controlled by the spawn rate (low spawn times range from 35-45 seconds, generally.

While we can definitely control general spawn areas with stage hacking, we'll probably never be able to completely control spawn points individually, and even if we could, it would require hacking, so it will never really be tournament legal.

Even so, having item counterpick lists add incredible amounts of strategic depth to the game, so definitely learn the ins and outs of the cp system. ^_^

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

hmm I never knew this ruleset you guys made even existed. For like the past 3 months i was working on my own Ruleset that included items. and after looking through this i do like the idea of being able to control item spawn areas. Though i do feel some things need to be looked a more thoroughly. Here the link to the one i came up with a few months ago in case anyone is curious. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=175156 i would greatly appreciate some feedback on what needs tweaking.