Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Ghostbone]

Of course, with coin mode activated, you'd see Brawl take an immediate shift towards actual offensive gameplay.

It'd be all about stage control, rushing down, and grabbing those coins damn effectively.

Fixed
/Coin mode for god tier

Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q4QncSgOT8

Oh the joys of playing Peach.
/She makes up for it by giving you beam swords when you're losing <3

 

[Jack Kieser]

Alright, did some minor bugfixes. I figured I'd bump just because I know items have come back up in a few threads, and it's better for people to be informed when posting than not; it's harder for people to read the thread if it's 200000000 pages down.

 

[John12346]

I've been watching this thread for a while now, but recently, I'd been playing with items a lot, just to get better feels for how each works, so I figured I'd throw my own two cents in to help fine tune this list. I mostly agree with a lot of these, but there are a few concerns I have, so here we go...

Star Rod [NEUTRAL] - A unique item in that it is the only item in the game capable of acting as both a projectile and a bludgeon (without having to be thrown), the Star Rod opens up a lot of interesting strategies. The fact that different characters act differently when shooting stars (some characters can fire two stars in quick succession, while most are restricted to firing off one star at a time), as well as how a star can be launched from both tilts and Smashes, lends itself to a level of strategic value that other bludgeons can't compare to. Add to that an average risk/reward, average strength, and average range and you have an item perfectly suited for tournament play. Accepted for play.

What you said about the Star Rod is all true. Smacking someone in the face with it or hitting someone with the stars isn't all that strong, and it even has its share of risk when doing so. The issue here lies in its throwing strength. Hitting an opponent with a thrown Star Rod provides a very troubling kind of knockback which can kill an opponent really easily.

The first thing about it is that the knockback from throwing the Star Rod is really high to begin with. It's capable of sending opponents really long distances even at mid-percents, which makes it a very potent throwing item. Then... there's the trajectory it sends you in. If you nail an airborne opponent with it, it sends them in a very hard, lazy arc downward, similar to the trajectory Meta Knight's airborne Shuttle Loop sends you in. If you hit a grounded opponent with it, it sends them sliding across the stage very quickly, similar to the trajectory Jigglypuff's Dsmash sends you in, but like a billion times stronger or whatever.

I think that the base knockback stored within this item, combined with the crazy trajectories its capable of sending you in warrant further investigation, as this kind of throwing power may serve to be at the destructive level of the Home Run Bat, which is set as a Counterpick item solely for being a really powerful throwing item. Just head into Training mode and see what I mean. It may be tame enough to stick around as a Neutral item, but it definitely needs some testing done first.

Motion-Sensor Bomb [NEUTRAL] - The Motion-Sensor Bomb is the very semblance of strategic item usage. Incredibly simple to use, the MSB stays on the field for a preset amount of time; unlike in previous games, if a MSB has not been detonated after this period of time passes, then it simply disappears. The MSB has decent knockback (when detonated, not when thrown), and is usually considered a low-risk/medium-reward item; it is only low-risk if you remember where you placed it, and is usually not detonated in tournament play other than by extreme accident, as they are easy to spot and easy to fight around. If both combatants remember the position of the bomb, it more than likely will never be detonated, but it is very useful as an edgeguard when set on the side or edge of a stage. The MSB is also the only explosive item that cannot detonate until after it is thrown; this cannot be stressed enough. By its very design, the Motion Sensor Bomb cannot, under ANY circumstances, detonate until thrown. Disregard ANY anecdotal evidence you may have heard to the contrary; this point has been erroneously dredged up many times, and this thread has debunked this myth every time. Very balanced for a bomb item, the MSB is approved for item play.

The Motion Sensor Bomb... I've had it explode on me for attacking it before it was activated. Like, I've hit it with moves AFTER it spawned out of the air, landed on the ground, and remained unmoving, and it still blew up on me. However, it seems like only specific types of attacks can set it off, because I can't seem to detonate it with every kind of attack, but the fact remains that yes, the MSB CAN explode without being set, I'm sure of it.

I'm gonna do some field testing to better understand what does and what does not cause an unset MSB to blow up, but with this in mind, it does fall into the same category as Blast Boxes or Gooey Bombs, where it could theoretically spawn on top of your attacks and blow you up. Keep it in mind...

Smart Bomb [BANNED] - An item built off of the concept of chaos. The Smart Bomb is incredibly finicky, having marginal chance to either fail to detonate or to misfire. What truly unbalances this item is the Smart Bomb's blast radius; it is entirely possible to miss the target but still have him/her get caught in the resulting blast, and so this item frequently rewards players who lack the skill to properly aim the bomb. Though it is possible to tap DI to the side of the explosion to save oneself from the brunt of the knockback, this item will do at about 33% damage if a player is caught in the blast, and though it cannot kill until the ~140% range, it causes dramatic effects on the battle. Due to the extreme ease of use and the disproportional amount of damage and knockback, this item has been deemed too 'broken' for item play.

With proper SDI or TDI, one can easily escape from the CENTER of the blast radius and get out with maybe 5%-10% damage with no real knockback, and that's about it. It's definitely not an overpowered 9999 damage machine once people learn how to deal with actually getting hit by it.

I do, however, agree with the fact that it doesn't take much to actually hit an opponent with it, and it can intrude on a fight when it spawns, and that may not be everyone's cup of tea... but I don't believe the effects of the item are SO destructive that they fall under banning criteria. Perhaps some consideration can be taken in moving this item into Counterpick with this in mind?

Hothead [COUNTERPICK] - The Hothead is a largely situational item, but as a projectile it is pretty powerful. It is large, which makes it difficult (in proportion to most other projectiles) to dodge, but it does have flaws. The Hothead does terribly on stages with walk-off edges as it is unable to circle around the stage like it can do on floating levels, and even on some floating levels, the Hothead can be finicky and refuse to circle around the stage; this probably can be marked up to irregular level shapes confusing the item AI. If there are floating or secondary platforms on any level, the Hothead can be easily dodged by simply staying away from the main platform, rendering it useless (aside from a pressure item). Ultimately, though, the Hothead gives the player who deploys it the advantage; it can cover stages very quickly and efficiently, does decent knockback even at lower percentages, and can grow by touching it with anything possessing the fire, explosive, or electrical properties, in addition to the fact that the player that sets it is unaffected by it. It is, however, possible to reflect a deployed Hothead with certain moves (or by perfect shielding as it is thrown) and change its master. In addition to this, the Hothead gives any character with fire- or electric-based attacks a 'mini-buff' of sorts, as a Hothead's contact with any attack with these properties causes it to grow in size, speed, and power. I would be remiss if I didn't note, however, that there are many problems with reflected Hotheads, especially if they have already been fed Fire/Electrical/Explosive attacks in that glitches exist in a few situations with a few reflection moves (for instance, Pit's Side-B) that cause even a tiny Hothead to become a OHKO killing machine, impossible to stop or reflect. The causes of these situations are currently unknown, and thus cannot be accounted for mid-fight. We will approve the Hothead for tournament play pending further review and input from the community, however we will move it to the counterpick list to reduce its possible effect on battle.

I'll give my own input for the Hothead.

If you grow the thing to its maximum size, or if it's reflected too many times(even at a minimum size), it provides knockback that kills even at 0%, just as you said. Situational as it seems, I believe that the Hothead has far too much potential to be able to change the tides of a match. It is also capable of traveling around maps extremely quickly(although its speed is random every time), causing very threatening safe zones for opponents to have to deal with, and it has the annoying property of stopping projectiles that hit it(even it is not a projectile that will make it grow).

If Hotheads are ever made active in matches, I would not give a second thought to dropping Lucario in favor of a character with a reflector for that match, for example. They are legitimately THAT powerful and intrusive to the opponent, and should not be legal simply due to the destructive amounts of damage and kills they are capable of producing in a single usage.

 

[The Ben]

Situational as it seems, I believe that the Hothead has far too much potential to be able to change the tides of a match.

My main concern is that the item does what it's supposed to do! If you want a game where the tide can't be turned than I recommend you play a game that isn't Brawl.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I assume he wants to play a game that he enjoys.

If he doesn't like Hotheads and has the option to turn them off, why would he bother with a different game?

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I'm kind of tired of agruing about this, but this needs to be said: If items being immediately banned in Brawl is unfair and needs to be tested, they would have to be after we test things that we immediately banned all the way back in Melee, like time and coin mode.

 

[Cassio]

I dont disagree with most of John#'s descriptions, although I think with anything you need to weigh both pros and cons. I dont really have a stance on them, although I think sometimes our perspective from itemless brawl can make some judgements difficult. For instance losing a stock without items is a really big deal, but I can see the possibility where its not as fatal as were used to it being.

I do strongly agree about the smart bombs though. Going back to pros and cons, I think smart bombs can provide a lot of strategic value with their ability to control space. Its an item that you dont want to be caught in, but at the same time is extremely easy to avoid/pop out of, so really the space your opponent has taken control over is scarier than the item itself. At the same time it needs to be placed smartly, and the opportunity to do so must be present. There are definitely drawbacks already mentioned, but I think the pros stand out more strongly in this case.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fixed
/Coin mode for god tier

Edit:
Oh the joys of playing Peach.
/She makes up for it by giving you beam swords when you're losing <3

I'd be down for a metagame where getting hit as Ice Climbers makes you win.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I'd be down for a metagame where getting hit as Ice Climbers makes you win.

Oh God ICs would destroy in coin mode.

 

[salaboB]

I'm kind of tired of agruing about this, but this needs to be said: If items being immediately banned in Brawl is unfair and needs to be tested, they would have to be after we test things that we immediately banned all the way back in Melee, like time and coin mode.

If the basic assumption is not just "We want it to be fun" but "We want you to knock your opponent off the edge X times" then Coin and Time mode just disqualify themselves, there's no need to test basic facts of the game.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

If the basic assumption is not just "We want it to be fun" but "We want you to knock your opponent off the edge X times" then Coin and Time mode just disqualify themselves, there's no need to test basic facts of the game.

But that's just it, when did we ever determine that that's the best system? Never. We just threw time and coin mode to the wind because most people liked stock better, which is pretty much the same reason why items were banned immediately in Brawl. I'm not trying to push time mode, all I'm saying is that we can't push for items and then completely ignore a default that's been banned literally forever.

 

[lordvaati]

But that's just it, when did we ever determine that that's the best system? Never. We just threw time and coin mode to the wind because most people liked stock better, which is pretty much the same reason why items were banned immediately in Brawl. I'm not trying to push time mode, all I'm saying is that we can't push for items and then completely ignore a default that's been banned literally forever.

I see what you are trying to says, but those modes were in fact banned on Day 1. and they still play the same way as day 1. Items were tested for around 1-2 years in Melee, but banned on day 1 in brawl, despite the fact they received a major change by not having containers always on. coin and time play is exactly the same, whereas items received a big enough change to warrant testing. best example would be like how all the Uber tier Pokes were retested in gen 5, except for those who never changed and were as overpowered as always.

it is worth noting that some people have been trying to come up with a play mode using Stamina, though i'm not sure if they are serious about it.

also, this thread should be a sticky again. just Saiyan.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I see what you are trying to says, but those modes were in fact banned on Day 1. and they still play the same way as day 1. Items were tested for around 1-2 years in Melee, but banned on day 1 in brawl, despite the fact they received a major change by not having containers always on. coin and time play is exactly the same, whereas items received a big enough change to warrant testing.

Time and coin were never tested at any time in Melee. Just because they play the same doesn't change anything, because we have no knowledge of how they effect competitive play at all.

it is worth noting that some people have been trying to come up with a play mode using Stamina, though i'm not sure if they are serious about it.

That's dumb even in theory.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I've been watching this thread for a while now, but recently, I'd been playing with items a lot, just to get better feels for how each works, so I figured I'd throw my own two cents in to help fine tune this list. I mostly agree with a lot of these, but there are a few concerns I have, so here we go...

Oh, man, yes! Discussion, and from John#'s! My day == "made".

What you said about the Star Rod is all true. Smacking someone in the face with it or hitting someone with the stars isn't all that strong, and it even has its share of risk when doing so. The issue here lies in its throwing strength. Hitting an opponent with a thrown Star Rod provides a very troubling kind of knockback which can kill an opponent really easily.

The first thing about it is that the knockback from throwing the Star Rod is really high to begin with. It's capable of sending opponents really long distances even at mid-percents, which makes it a very potent throwing item. Then... there's the trajectory it sends you in. If you nail an airborne opponent with it, it sends them in a very hard, lazy arc downward, similar to the trajectory Meta Knight's airborne Shuttle Loop sends you in. If you hit a grounded opponent with it, it sends them sliding across the stage very quickly, similar to the trajectory Jigglypuff's Dsmash sends you in, but like a billion times stronger or whatever.

I think that the base knockback stored within this item, combined with the crazy trajectories its capable of sending you in warrant further investigation, as this kind of throwing power may serve to be at the destructive level of the Home Run Bat, which is set as a Counterpick item solely for being a really powerful throwing item. Just head into Training mode and see what I mean. It may be tame enough to stick around as a Neutral item, but it definitely needs some testing done first.

Yeah, this was a really hard call for me, one of the hardest, actually. When it came down to it, I just didn't have enough in-game evidence to make a call that I would have felt comfortable with, and considering the circumstances, felt that erring on the side of "Neutral" was the best course of action; I felt confident that it could always be put CP later, but it's a lot harder to move something up the N/CP/B list than down (see: stages). I totally agree 150% with your assessment.

The Motion Sensor Bomb... I've had it explode on me for attacking it before it was activated. Like, I've hit it with moves AFTER it spawned out of the air, landed on the ground, and remained unmoving, and it still blew up on me. However, it seems like only specific types of attacks can set it off, because I can't seem to detonate it with every kind of attack, but the fact remains that yes, the MSB CAN explode without being set, I'm sure of it.

I'm gonna do some field testing to better understand what does and what does not cause an unset MSB to blow up, but with this in mind, it does fall into the same category as Blast Boxes or Gooey Bombs, where it could theoretically spawn on top of your attacks and blow you up. Keep it in mind...

Man, when this happens, PLEASE save the replay. I've never seen video documentation of a MSB ever exploding without being activated first (that is to say, being held by a player; being picked up and having it knocked out of a player's hand counts as activating it). Meanwhile, I've gone into the game with Bowser, spawned the max number of mines allowable on both sides of him, and used his whole moveset on them, and nothing has ever exploded. I know, I need to record a video myself. Well, I need to get a working capture card first... >_<

With proper SDI or TDI, one can easily escape from the CENTER of the blast radius and get out with maybe 5%-10% damage with no real knockback, and that's about it. It's definitely not an overpowered 9999 damage machine once people learn how to deal with actually getting hit by it.

I do, however, agree with the fact that it doesn't take much to actually hit an opponent with it, and it can intrude on a fight when it spawns, and that may not be everyone's cup of tea... but I don't believe the effects of the item are SO destructive that they fall under banning criteria. Perhaps some consideration can be taken in moving this item into Counterpick with this in mind?

Maybe. I mean, I'll straight up admit that a lot of this one was based on politics; it's just so disruptive and so pointless to the match as a whole that so many people were complaining about it. I felt ok (well, as ok as I could feel) banning it if it meant getting ***** in seats, as it were. I personally don't like it (I just think it's very poorly designed), but I wouldn't complain if it were CP. I'd like to see some events or matches with it on, though.

I'll give my own input for the Hothead.

If you grow the thing to its maximum size, or if it's reflected too many times(even at a minimum size), it provides knockback that kills even at 0%, just as you said. Situational as it seems, I believe that the Hothead has far too much potential to be able to change the tides of a match. It is also capable of traveling around maps extremely quickly(although its speed is random every time), causing very threatening safe zones for opponents to have to deal with, and it has the annoying property of stopping projectiles that hit it(even it is not a projectile that will make it grow).

If Hotheads are ever made active in matches, I would not give a second thought to dropping Lucario in favor of a character with a reflector for that match, for example. They are legitimately THAT powerful and intrusive to the opponent, and should not be legal simply due to the destructive amounts of damage and kills they are capable of producing in a single usage.

Entirely possible. I left it on with the hope that people would try doing just that; activating it and dropping mains for reflector characters to try to abuse the glitches. If it became an issue of "CP the Hothead and pick a Spacie", then banned it'd go. I agree that it has some potential to be really troublesome due to the glitch, but I wanted to see what would happen in a real-world scenario.

 

[John12346]

Oh, man, yes! Discussion, and from John#'s! My day == "made".

I wasn't aware talking with someone with a jumbled mess of numbers in their name was such a... national pastime... >____>

Man, when this happens, PLEASE save the replay. I've never seen video documentation of a MSB ever exploding without being activated first (that is to say, being held by a player; being picked up and having it knocked out of a player's hand counts as activating it). Meanwhile, I've gone into the game with Bowser, spawned the max number of mines allowable on both sides of him, and used his whole moveset on them, and nothing has ever exploded. I know, I need to record a video myself. Well, I need to get a working capture card first... >_<

So anyway, I did some in-depth testing, and found out what makes the MSB tick. Here's how it works.

- As we all know, as soon as the MSB is "set," or thrown onto a solid floor any attack can cause it to explode from there.
- After a second or two of the MSB being "set," it will make a small "tick" noise, and any contact whatsoever, attack or not, will cause it to explode.
- The MSB will NOT explode if it's not on the ground and not set. I had my character pick up a MSB, drop it back onto the ground by having it hit out of me, and any attacks to the MSB would not set it off. There's also no way to make it explode after it just spawned land landed on the ground, either. Once the MSB hits the ground, it will not explode under any circumstance, unless it has been set.
- The MSB WILL explode if it is attacked while airborne. This includes it being airborne from being spawned, falling out of a character's hand, or being thrown by the character, although if it's been thrown, then the attack needs to be 8% stronger than however much damage a thrown MSB causes in order to blow it up. This also explains how it's possible to blow up a MSB that's in a character's hand, because you attack the character, they drop it(at random, of course), and then your attack hits the MSB before it hits the ground. The MSB can still be blown up if it bounces on the ground, although once it stops moving on the ground, then all of the rules for it being on the ground apply.
- The MSB will not explode while airborne right after a spawn in Training Mode. I have no idea why, but that's how it is. You have to go into Group Brawl for this **** to happen.

So with this in mind... it kinda still does fall into the category of a Blast Box or a Gooey Bomb in that it can still ultimately spawn on top of your attacks. But... the timeframe for that to happen IS pretty small, and the MSB is still pretty tame as an item, so keeping it legal would be a good idea. You could even make the argument for keeping it as a Neutral item, but I'll leave that call up to you. Just watch it, because this can randomly hurt characters for attacking now.

Maybe. I mean, I'll straight up admit that a lot of this one was based on politics; it's just so disruptive and so pointless to the match as a whole that so many people were complaining about it. I felt ok (well, as ok as I could feel) banning it if it meant getting ***** in seats, as it were. I personally don't like it (I just think it's very poorly designed), but I wouldn't complain if it were CP. I'd like to see some events or matches with it on, though.

With proper explanation of the item's mechanics(and some good 'ol Mr. Doom), I'd say a case could easily be made for it being made legal as a Counterpick. With it unable to cause a KO or even any real damage 99% of the time, the Smart Bomb really turns out to be nothing more than a space controlling item, one that can be used to force the opponent into a different position, for example. It has some strategic depth, to be sure, so yeah, give it some consideration, ok?

Entirely possible. I left it on with the hope that people would try doing just that; activating it and dropping mains for reflector characters to try to abuse the glitches. If it became an issue of "CP the Hothead and pick a Spacie", then banned it'd go. I agree that it has some potential to be really troublesome due to the glitch, but I wanted to see what would happen in a real-world scenario.

Well, I've done a lot of item gameplay, and my main assessment is that, while it would be relatively easy to avoid in a 1v1, the potential for a Hothead to earn a free kill is just too much. The fact it can kill at 0% damage, however situational, is just a little too overbearing in my opinion, is all.

Perhaps some testing could clear its case, but I think it would be better off banned, for sure.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Time and coin were never tested at any time in Melee. Just because they play the same doesn't change anything, because we have no knowledge of how they effect competitive play at all.



That's dumb even in theory.

Why is Stamina Mode dumb, but you think we should give ****ing Coin Mode proper testing? Stamina Mode is actually really awesome as long as you set the damage ratio to 1.5 to prevent infinites. It's pretty legit, makes smash feel a little more like a traditional fighter. It's a neat change of pace.

As is item play. Also a neat change of pace. People need to stop hating on item play just cuz they're mad that there's a legit way to play it, and they didn't think of it first.

 

[Sleek Media]

Giant Brawl + Stamina

Final Destination

Snake - Bowser - Ike

Enjoy the fastest 300% you've ever seen put on Bowser.

 

[-LzR-]

I seriously believe coin matches have a lot of competitive potential if people actually gave it a try. Coin mode forces aggressive play too if people are so hyped about that. What is especially interesting would be coin doubles. Think of the possibilities... Stuff like coin tanks, hitting your team mates for coins or just something you could come up with. It would have so much depth imo if truly tried. But oh well, I guess it's never happening, I'm like the only person in the world who likes coin matches.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because Ice Climbers weren't good enough already.

 

[Sleek Media]

I seriously believe coin matches have a lot of competitive potential if people actually gave it a try. Coin mode forces aggressive play too if people are so hyped about that. What is especially interesting would be coin doubles. Think of the possibilities... Stuff like coin tanks, hitting your team mates for coins or just something you could come up with. It would have so much depth imo if truly tried. But oh well, I guess it's never happening, I'm like the only person in the world who likes coin matches.

But...but...that's not fair! What if the stage makes all the coins fall into the middle, and you just stand there collecting all the coins? Certain characters might be really good at collecting coins, too! There's no skill, the coins just fly out in a random direction. It's too unbalanced. METAKNIGHT ONLY RAINBOW CRUISE OR BRINSTAR.

 

[-LzR-]

Because Ice Climbers weren't good enough already.

Explain why would IC be good on coin matches?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Chain-grab gets you a bajillion coins.

You can collect coins that were knocked out of you to increase your score, and ICs lose twice as many coins as other characters and have twice the chance of having coins fall into them.

 

[Sleek Media]

Chain grabbing banned for obvious reasons. When you get hit, you get knocked away. Spawning more coins is a disadvantage. Anything else?

 

[salaboB]

Chain grabbing banned for obvious reasons. When you get hit, you get knocked away. Spawning more coins is a disadvantage. Anything else?

I'm sure there would be other ways discovered to get a lot of coins generated.

The biggest problem (imo) with coin match is that it's a timered mode, and people want to win by defeating their opponent -- not by racking up score until *ding* time's out. That's why it didn't need testing for fun or not, because it's not even the same game anymore.

Be a bit like playing Quake for Deathmatch and deciding to run Capture the Flag instead. It's a fine game mode in its own right, but if you're doing Deathmatch tournaments it's not even worth looking at CTF when setting up the rules.

 

[The Ben]

I'm sure there would be other ways discovered to get a lot of coins generated.

The biggest problem (imo) with coin match is that it's a timered mode, and people want to win by defeating their opponent -- not by racking up score until *ding* time's out. That's why it didn't need testing for fun or not, because it's not even the same game anymore.

Be a bit like playing Quake for Deathmatch and deciding to run Capture the Flag instead. It's a fine game mode in its own right, but if you're doing Deathmatch tournaments it's not even worth looking at CTF when setting up the rules.

Missing the point entirely. They're discussing coin mode tournaments, so why are you bringing up any other mode?

 

[-LzR-]

That is why I am suggesting coin doubles. This way you can't really perform chaingrabs and thanks to the nature of the mode, it forces aggressive play. Also since there are no stocks, both teams are full for the whole match so there is no time to run away either. I think it could be really fun.

 

[Jack Kieser]

As much as I like seeing posts in this thread, I feel compelled to remind everyone that this isn't a Coin Mode thread.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

Why is Stamina Mode dumb, but you think we should give ****ing Coin Mode proper testing? Stamina Mode is actually really awesome as long as you set the damage ratio to 1.5 to prevent infinites. It's pretty legit, makes smash feel a little more like a traditional fighter. It's a neat change of pace.

Fine, try it out, then. My point is still that items are at the back of the line for things that have been unfairly abandoned.

 

[salaboB]

Fine, try it out, then. My point is still that items are at the back of the line for things that have been unfairly abandoned.

It still remains that the other modes you listed (that were never tested) change the very goal of the game, while items being on or off changes nothing about it.

Items should be tested specifically because they might (See, might. We don't know without testing) correct some of the issues the game has without changing the main goal of the game at all.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm sure there would be other ways discovered to get a lot of coins generated.

The biggest problem (imo) with coin match is that it's a timered mode, and people want to win by defeating their opponent -- not by racking up score until *ding* time's out. That's why it didn't need testing for fun or not, because it's not even the same game anymore.

Be a bit like playing Quake for Deathmatch and deciding to run Capture the Flag instead. It's a fine game mode in its own right, but if you're doing Deathmatch tournaments it's not even worth looking at CTF when setting up the rules.

For your first point, sure. I'm sure coin mode can be broken, just like stock mode is already broken. What's so hard about playing for fun instead of hunting for exploits?

And for your second, the best part is that it's a timed mode! When it comes down to that last 30 seconds and there's a <200 coin spread, the lower player is going to make an all-out blitz, and it's going I be exciting seeing if he can get the coins or score the KO.

Your third point misses the point.

 

[salaboB]

For your first point, sure. I'm sure coin mode can be broken, just like stock mode is already broken. What's so hard about playing for fun instead of hunting for exploits?

And for your second, the best part is that it's a timed mode! When it comes down to that last 30 seconds and there's a <200 coin spread, the lower player is going to make an all-out blitz, and it's going I be exciting seeing if he can get the coins or score the KO.

Your third point misses the point.

The whole point is that the modes weren't tested for tournament play because they don't have the same goal as the mode that is currently used, so my third point was actually the main point.

This is a thread about tournaments using items, you could certainly make one about coins, timed, or stamina if you would like -- but proposing it here is like suggesting a TDM tournament convert to a CTF tournament.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

It still remains that the other modes you listed (that were never tested) change the very goal of the game, while items being on or off changes nothing about it.

Items should be tested specifically because they might (See, might. We don't know without testing) correct some of the issues the game has without changing the main goal of the game at all.

Time mode would change very little. If the timer was at ~6 minutes, the winner would still probably get 3 KO's. Coin and Stamina would change the game quite a bit, but Time would probably impact the game less than items.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Time mode would change very little. If the timer was at ~6 minutes, the winner would still probably get 3 KO's. Coin and Stamina would change the game quite a bit, but Time would probably impact the game less than items.

Actually Time Mode would encourage camping and stalling tactics more than ever before. You thought Metaknight and Toon Link stalled and ran out the clock too much in stock mode? Wait til you see what happens when you make that literally the goal of the game.

Items are just items though. The game doesn't change, just the best way to win it changes.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

Actually Time Mode would encourage camping and stalling tactics more than ever before. You thought Metaknight and Toon Link stalled and ran out the clock too much in stock mode? Wait til you see what happens when you make that literally the goal of the game.

Items are just items though. The game doesn't change, just the best way to win it changes.

All of the problems with stalling could be solved by not counting damage into the equation (up to a certain percent difference). It would force people to actively try to get kills at the end instead of just being like "I'm 15% ahead, time to be a candyass for the next two minutes". That + time could work. And I have no idea how you people can think that we'd be playing the exact same game with items. We would not, items would centralize the game around items and we'd be reliant on items to win. Items would have a large impact, and although that's not necessarily a bad thing, claiming that the game is the same with or without items is a falsehood.

 

[salaboB]

All of the problems with stalling could be solved by not counting damage into the equation (up to a certain percent difference). It would force people to actively try to get kills at the end instead of just being like "I'm 15% ahead, time to be a candyass for the next two minutes". That + time could work. And I have no idea how you people can think that we'd be playing the exact same game with items. We would not, items would centralize the game around items and we'd be reliant on items to win. Items would have a large impact, and although that's not necessarily a bad thing, claiming that the game is the same with or without items is a falsehood.

Not dealing with tiebreakers here, but...

Stock match without items: Play for stocks. You try to knock your opponent off the edge more than they knock you off the edge.

Stock match with items: Play for stocks. You try to knock your opponent off the edge more than they knock you off the edge.

Timed match (With or without items, as demonstrated it doesn't change the goal): Play for points. Jumping off the edge when your opponent hasn't hit you recently enough -1's you but doesn't +1 them. Similar to playing until tiebreaker every single game of stock match, and people would play with that in mind. Can't easily justify penalties for stalling until time runs out because the entire point is to play until time runs out (Time out is not a penalty state that you can avoid reaching). Not sure what you're proposing to do if both people have equal points but differing damage, just have draws all over the place?

Coin match: Similar to timed match but goal is coins instead of points. Trying to reset your % when you have enough time available to recover coins becomes a strategy (When your opponent can't grab your death coins), other odd behaviors that are not present in stock match would be likely to show up as well. Still playing until time out, still hard to justify stalling penalties when game's point is to hold out until the timer dings.

Stamina match: Last man standing rather than getting X kills, goal is just to hit your opponent repeatedly without the only way to win being to get them off the edge (Though it's always an option). Time out can again be a penalty state because the goal of the game is to not last until you run out of time.

As you can see each of the other modes actually change the goal of the game more than items would. That is why items are worth examining especially to see if they can help with things like stalling (So less anti-stall rules would be needed, such as the LGL) and MK's effectiveness (If he can't handle items as well as others his dominance would be weakened)

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

Similar to playing until tiebreaker every single game of stock match, and people would play with that in mind. Can't easily justify penalties for stalling until time runs out because the entire point is to play until time runs out (Time out is not a penalty state that you can avoid reaching). Not sure what you're proposing to do if both people have equal points but differing damage, just have draws all over the place?

Obviously there'd have to be a tiebreaker system, probably a 1 minute time mode with the "points don't matter" rule abolished. Why you would ever assume that I would have no answer for you is beyond me. Also, how do you know that people would stall all the time, or that there's no way to stop them from doing that? Does the winning team in a Football game just run around like idiots as soon as they have the lead? No, they don't. Does the winning team in a Soccer or Hockey match just kick the ball/slap the puck to each other for the rest of the game as soon as they score a goal? No, they don't. Why would this be any different?

P.S. Do not ask me to make an entire ruleset on the spot, or question me on how to fix all of the possible problems that you could think of right on the spot, because to form a ruleset and see if those exist, we have to test it first.

As you can see each of the other modes actually change the goal of the game more than items would. That is why items are worth examining especially to see if they can help with things like stalling (So less anti-stall rules would be needed, such as the LGL) and MK's effectiveness (If he can't handle items as well as others his dominance would be weakened)

Your entire argument is that it's still stock mode if you use items in stock mode, which is obvious and proves nothing. Obviously the game mode won't change, but the way it's played will be completely different, because it will be centered around items. Also, stop trying to appeal to popular problems as if your answer is the only one. There is no proof that items will stop stalling, nothing about items are anti-stall. Same goes for MK, nothing even remotely points to him being even slightly worse with items than anyone else. Your solution is not the only one, your solution does not deserve any more special treatment than mine (if we're going by your "NEVAR TASTED IN BARWL" argument, then it actually deserves less), and your solution might not even be a solution. My point is that everything must be tested, and you just pushing for yours is hindering in our chances to find the best solution.

 

[salaboB]

Your entire argument is that it's still stock mode if you use items in stock mode, which is obvious and proves nothing. Obviously the game mode won't change, but the way it's played will be completely different, because it will be centered around items. Also, stop trying to appeal to popular problems as if your answer is the only one. There is no proof that items will stop stalling, nothing about items are anti-stall. Same goes for MK, nothing even remotely points to him being even slightly worse with items than anyone else. Your solution is not the only one, your solution does not deserve any more special treatment than mine (if we're going by your "NEVAR TASTED IN BARWL" argument, then it actually deserves less), and your solution might not even be a solution. My point is that everything must be tested, and you just pushing for yours is hindering in our chances to find the best solution.

Here's a couple anti-stall aspects of items: They give you something to throw at the person trying to stall, and if food is included they can give you % pressure. So if you're stalling, you're not controlling the field to gather the items -- that would lead to being reachable by your opponent. So items have a good chance of doing something about stalling. But to find out for sure? Discussion and testing.

For MK it really depends how well he handles items. Does he have as good lead-ins with them? Do people having more things to zone him with help them more than it helps MK? Do you know the answers to this? No? Discussion and testing.

Finally, for the last time I'll say it (And others have already said this, too), this thread is about items. That's why items are being discussed in it. If you want to go try to solve the issues by playing timed mode (Which pretty much guaranteed won't help stalling (Get points up, stall. How is this different from stock mode? You'll still need rules against it.) or change anything about MK (He can do everything in timed mode he can do in stock mode)) or coin mode (Which might change things) you can go create a thread to discuss it, and I won't push items in it -- because that won't be what the thread is about.

It doesn't matter if things might not improve. What matters is that nobody has been willing to seriously try it, which is why a discussion to demonstrate (As best as can be done with just talking about it) that it's worth testing is happening. Has to happen. So that maybe the needed testing can follow.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

Here's a couple anti-stall aspects of items: They give you something to throw at the person trying to stall, and if food is included they can give you % pressure. So if you're stalling, you're not controlling the field to gather the items -- that would lead to being reachable by your opponent.

With food you have a point, but with items you could just wait until one spawns near you and then do the same thing. Also, projectile camping could easily become a problem, nullifying the point about stalling.

So items have a good chance of doing something about stalling. But to find out for sure? Discussion and testing.

Same for everything else, your cause deserves zero special treatment, and the constant whining about nobody testing items in this thread gives me the impression that none of you are actually going to try testing items.

For MK it really depends how well he handles items. Does he have as good lead-ins with them? Do people having more things to zone him with help them more than it helps MK? Do you know the answers to this? No? Discussion and testing.

This is completely random baseless speculation. Anyone can do this with anything about anything, and therefore it means nothing. You are acting like Rudy Giuliani and we really don't need that around here.

Finally, for the last time I'll say it (And others have already said this, too), this thread is about items. That's why items are being discussed in it. If you want to go try to solve the issues by playing timed mode (Which pretty much guaranteed won't help stalling (Get points up, stall. How is this different from stock mode? You'll still need rules against it.) or change anything about MK (He can do everything in timed mode he can do in stock mode)) or coin mode (Which might change things) you can go create a thread to discuss it, and I won't push items in it -- because that won't be what the thread is about.

No. As has been the case multiple times on these forums, anything short of complete irrelevancy is considered on-topic. I can talk about whatever the hell I want until they fix this problem, and I will, because I have a valid point about the thread in general.

It doesn't matter if things might not improve. What matters is that nobody has been willing to seriously try it, which is why a discussion to demonstrate (As best as can be done with just talking about it) that it's worth testing is happening. Has to happen. So that maybe the needed testing can follow.

What about my idea? What about the many other ideas that have never seen the light of day that might work? Why is yours the only one that should get this treatment? My point is that we either test everything to find the best result, or we test nothing and keep everything the way it is. Only driving in one is just pushing an agenda that you want, and is not for the best, no matter what way you look at it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

While I'm sure ROB is saying all manner of intelligent things, might I suggest just adding him to your ignore list so that worthwhile discussion can take place? After all, it says right in the OP by myself AND moderators that this thread is not for discussing anything but item play (that means no other modes) and not for discussions about whether item play is valid or not (that's assumed in this thread, and that discussion is for other threads).

Trust me, just ignoring him is infinitely better than dealing with him; my screen has been less cluttered and definitely less face-desky-y with him ignored.

 

[W.C.N]

Sub'd I'm interested