Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Long time no see Jack.

Popped back in once I started thinking about the potential of items return to the next Smash. Though I like the efforts of this, as I've always been a proponent of item play (All Brawl, if you will), I'm still amazed at the level of downtime between rounds required by this method (too much counterpicking and resetting to default after a match is over brings about a bit of convoluted organization). Understandable to a degree, sure, and I do support it still. I hope that come the next Smash, they introduce the last facet to item play that would demolish the arguments against them: a spawn warning indicator. That lack of where and when is still the only argument that holds water (though I still say it's a stretch). Expect me returning to crusade for items once again if they include this in SSB4, this time with no remaining legitimate arguments left to say no to.

 

[The Ben]

I just read 25 pages and 1 comment. Holy crap.

I think a valid argument for items that almost never gets brought up is that for tournament play to grow Smash needs to become more of a spectator sport - and most people who play Smash play with items on. The hardcore tourney goers are few and far between. Whenever someone mentions adding items back to the game and seemingly the entire response to it is negative it's largely because there is no inherent reason to express agreement. Tournament smash players have been the vocal minority for a community so far removed from them it borders on insanity. The average person owning a copy of any given Smash game will almost never play without items as the frantic pace and chaos is actually a selling point to the franchise.

With that said it does change the balance of the game dramatically. I won't say it imbalances the game (the game being more or less balanced depending on how you define balance), but changes the way you have to analyze it.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I do have to after that having the competative game have as few differences from the generic game that people get straight out of the box has some real advantages for getting new people in. it is much harder for people to get interested when the game looks so different from what they are used to playing in their homes.

Complicated rule lists can really scare off the new players we need to keep the tourneys populated.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Long time no see Jack.

Popped back in once I started thinking about the potential of items return to the next Smash. Though I like the efforts of this, as I've always been a proponent of item play (All Brawl, if you will), I'm still amazed at the level of downtime between rounds required by this method (too much counterpicking and resetting to default after a match is over brings about a bit of convoluted organization). Understandable to a degree, sure, and I do support it still. I hope that come the next Smash, they introduce the last facet to item play that would demolish the arguments against them: a spawn warning indicator. That lack of where and when is still the only argument that holds water (though I still say it's a stretch). Expect me returning to crusade for items once again if they include this in SSB4, this time with no remaining legitimate arguments left to say no to.

I had to quote this, and sorry for bumping an older thread but with next smash this is really interesting, and I was curious how things worked for people with how much time it took with CPing items and such, any thoughts?

 

[Desu~]

I had to quote this, and sorry for bumping an older thread but with next smash this is really interesting, and I was curious how things worked for people with how much time it took with CPing items and such, any thoughts?

Also, i believed it was kinda unfair to see that only Diddy Kong and ZSS got to use items for their own advantages. (Link and toon link as well but, apparently, we just don't care.)

My suggestion would be to use items that can only be thrown that both characters can use in order to turn the situation to their favor.
Things like motion sensor bombs and/or pitfalls would be great items to set up traps and opponents would therefore be more limited into spacing or camping since the one who set it up would pressure him into going to that spot.

Items we would take out would be items that would deemed to be overwhelming on the stage, like items that revovers %s or long ranged items like ray guns and super scopes, items that encourages camping like bumpers or pokeballs, etc.

 

[-LzR-]

Motion sensor would be kinda cool except those things hit like a truck when you throw them for some ******** reason.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

Motion sensor would be kinda cool except those things hit like a truck when you throw them for some ******** reason.

Only thing I can say in response is "learn to catch". Seriously, the concept is frequently overlooked and a vital skill in item play. Turnips, bananas, and suit parts are obnoxious, but none are truly vital to learn to catch in order to fight the character throwing 'em. It definitely helps the fight, but a player who can catch vs. a player who can't in an item match has a gigantic advantage.

A partial aside, but another loosely item related change I hope to see in future Smash is to sudden death. There needs to be a more complex method of deciding. A game that ends with time, having a fresh stock one side (having died mere seconds before the end) and a nigh dead stock on the other really shouldn't be cause for sudden death. If it weren't for this, I'd think it'd be a good addition as well, as the bob-omb drop in SD is something that's seriously overlooked. Why? 'cause those bob-ombs are extremely easy to catch, as they don't blow up until they hit the ground. I'd really love to see the mode experimented with a lot more if they made some changes on determining SD.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also, i believed it was kinda unfair to see that only Diddy Kong and ZSS got to use items for their own advantages. (Link and toon link as well but, apparently, we just don't care.)

My suggestion would be to use items that can only be thrown that both characters can use in order to turn the situation to their favor.
Things like motion sensor bombs and/or pitfalls would be great items to set up traps and opponents would therefore be more limited into spacing or camping since the one who set it up would pressure him into going to that spot.

Items we would take out would be items that would deemed to be overwhelming on the stage, like items that revovers %s or long ranged items like ray guns and super scopes, items that encourages camping like bumpers or pokeballs, etc.

So to avoid the time it takes CPing items, just don't CP? Honestly, so obvious I completely didn't think of it.

A partial aside, but another loosely item related change I hope to see in future Smash is to sudden death. I'd really love to see the mode experimented with a lot more if they made some changes on determining SD.

Maybe pick up the 3DS then. I got a hunch the rules there might be closer to how the game comes to help introduce people into the scene better seeing as how people are already deeming it the "casual smash" and saying it shouldn't exist. It's going to need an edge somewhere, and I got a feeling that will be it.

 

[-LzR-]

Only thing I can say in response is "learn to catch". Seriously, the concept is frequently overlooked and a vital skill in item play. Turnips, bananas, and suit parts are obnoxious, but none are truly vital to learn to catch in order to fight the character throwing 'em. It definitely helps the fight, but a player who can catch vs. a player who can't in an item match has a gigantic advantage.

You do realize it's very fast to throw a projectile that is very small and has more kill potential than your smashes. Even if it whiffs you create a deadly trap to that area.
I have no problems catching items, my item play is above average, but catching a bomb is not a solution.

 

[Desu~]

Though i have never really tried it, i do believe you can counter a motion sensor bomb the same way other players do with Snake's Dsmash. You run and PS at the triggering range, so it negates this kill potential.
I will try this for the next days to come and report about this.

But we can disregard the MSB if it's to powerful in the end. The point is to pick a list of potential items that wouldn't unbalance anyone's game and that both parties can use for their advantage.

I just thought of items that could be used for the character itself, but the only item that seem neutral in that case is the beam sword, because fan, HrB, and star rod seems to be too OP.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

You do realize it's very fast to throw a projectile that is very small and has more kill potential than your smashes. Even if it whiffs you create a deadly trap to that area.
I have no problems catching items, my item play is above average, but catching a bomb is not a solution.

I could bite on this, but I'm not about to sully this thread with an endless debate over the idea of what item is "too good", as I've done it for years (since the first Great debate back in '03), and I understand that this community will always have a hate-on for items, even within the item play subcommunity. It's why I hope that there is a warning indicator for item spawn. The whole myth of "sudden luck" goes away, because you had the opportunity to control the area around the spawn beforehand and failed.

I'll just say that to those with a truly open mind, it would be discovered that very few items are actually that terrifying in proper play, and the addition of those would prevent a lot of the defensive play we've seen in Brawl as it is today. I will leave it at that, however, as this thread has at least been a step in the right direction to the return of Smash as it should be.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

well while i personally enjoy items both for casual use and competitive use, saying that using items is playing smash as it should be is a little much, i'd define it as playing smash using more of whats already given to us. Items are an option for us to use, and while many myself included see merit and viability in their use to competitive, others do not sadly. I always like to compare the ways items are handled in smash to mario karts simply because they both run on the luck of the draw smash more so than mario kart in some ways, but it's like real life in that regard, where you don't have full control over whats dealt to you but you must learn to adapt to each new scenario in order to survive. That is one of the main aspects of playing with items that makes it enjoyable in completely different competitive way.

 

[W.C.N]

The MegaUpload doesnt work any chance I can get the TO's Pack?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Try this link, I think it's the right package.

 

[W.C.N]

Yes Thank you

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well Jack, you know that we're seriously considering testing items again for the 3DS scene, is it possible to clean up the OP and such so when people get linked here constantly it can look a little better? I could even do the whole format myself so you could copy/paste if you're too busy.