Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Supreme Dirt]

Ugh, that ruleset is awful.

For so many reasons.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bananas are turned on >.>
Terrible

 

[san.]

I think 1 item spawn on low/medium is very predictable to know when the next item will spawn to the nearest 2-3 seconds.

I played with food on low a few days and I could predict when the next food item will spawn.

I think that control of sequential timing of the food drop is important enough where not knowing the spatial location of the next food item isn't much of a big deal.
One just needs to control the largest space of spatial probability of being able to reach the food item, since you know when food will spawn.

Some stages are also designed to bring food to you, such as the balloon at SV, or the shy guys at YI.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What the hell, an update?! Yes, an update. Mainly, to set procedure and gameplay stuff, not to the actual item lists; those are actually pretty stable at this point. You'll notice that I swiped the majority of the changes from the Unity Ruleset, but there are some edits. What edits, you might ask? These edits:

1 ) No Ledge Grab Limit of any kind. Frankly, the LGL was a ********, scrubby thing in the first place, but there is NO DATA to suggest that it's even necessary in ISP, with OR without MK. Not necessary, so it's out.

2 ) Item Counterpicks have been retooled. Just a little bit. It should work the same in principle, but allow for a bit more variety in CP'ing.

3 ) Altered Stage Lists. This is probably going to blow some minds, but ISP is pretty liberal compared to vBrawl. Shocking, I know. With that in mind, I edited to stage lists to include any stage that's not just pants-on-head retardedly broken. Yes, PTAD is legal. Yes, you can CP to Norfair. Indeed, you are seeing Distant Planet. The fact of the matter is that items change the game so much from vBrawl's ruleset that we honestly don't know what is "too gay" and what isn't... although we DO know what is just flat-out broken. So, I took the liberty to add back in any stage that isn't just completely broken until the PROOF of broken-ness is shown.

Also...

4 ) FD is a counterpick. FD isn't neutral. Certainly not with items. Deal with it.

And... that's all of the stuff worth mentioning. If you have questions / comments / problems / ideas, feel free to post. Also, this project has been going on since February of 2008, which means in a couple of months, we'll be hitting the 4 year mark of providing players and TOs a legitimate outlet for competitive item play. That being said, it'd be a really cool thing if players and TOs posted stories of their experiences either playing in or hosting ISP events. If I get enough, maybe I'll make an anniversary edit to the OP? Either way, I'm just plain curious to see what's been going on with the format in 4 years, so please, let us all know with a post. And, tell your friends to post! Them, too. We don't discriminate. Much.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why are there only 6 starters....

 

[Jack Kieser]

Honestly, because that's what Unity had already, and I only wanted to take the time / effort to change so much. Blame my laziness. I'll probably check out the Stage Rage crew's latest info soon.

 

[Akaku94]

Suggestion: No Starter List. Flossing is the way to go, especially for an already-liberal ruleset. Great stagelist, btw!

 

[Cassio]

rofl at removing the lgl but leaving MK banned. Quite honestly theres no need for an lgl or MKs removal with items on, if anything items make the game more balanced and should focus on removing less as a result. Its the best benefit of item play.

There should also be greater consideration for walk off stages since items remove a lot of the supposed risk reward on camping the blastzone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree that Meta Knight should be legal with items on.

 

[John12346]

Definitely.

MK is nowhere near the best character in ISP.

Pretty much anyone with a reflector comes to mind first.

 

[ElDominio]

Definitely.

MK is nowhere near the best character in ISP.

Pretty much anyone with a reflector comes to mind first.

Thirded.

MK's problems are mostly alleviated with items on.
B moves can't grab items.... and he'd be hit out of every single one of his moves...

See, this is why I would LOVE an ISP ruleset... but then everyone cries about it...

 

[Akaku94]

Agreed. MK isn't broken with items, and Ganon becomes better... Yay, balance! But seriously, lgl becomes pointless as well. Never as a main event, but this would make a great side event imo...

 

[ElDominio]

Agreed. MK isn't broken with items, and Ganon becomes better... Yay, balance! But seriously, lgl becomes pointless as well. Never as a main event, but this would make a great side event imo...

But why not a main event??? I'm sure it would be incredibly interesting and would probably get a huge wave of newcomers/attention...

 

[WindMajor]

Baby steps, my friend.

 

[Cassio]

...can't believe what Im reading honestly. ISPers chose to squander their best opportunity for their ruleset in favor of banning MK?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Meta Knight rules? What MK rules?

... ... ...
<_<
>_>
<_<

...I don't know what you guys are talking about.

 

[Ghostbone]

...can't believe what Im reading honestly. ISPers chose to squander their best opportunity for their ruleset in favor of banning MK?

What are you even on about?

 

[Flayl]

I like how every single post between Cassio's agree that MK should be legal and then he posts that.

 

[Mithost]

I love the idea of an item standard play. Peach finally gets the ability to kill seeing she was practically created with items in mind.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It's always nice to see people posting positively, and not calling the thread crazy, ********, or ridiculous.

Here's to flame wars, and not having as many anymore.

 

[Mithost]

That's smash boards for you, every thread with an opinion on it (and even some that don't) can and usually do turn into flame wars, even in character boards!

 

[Xona]

I've been testing around with this, running tournaments in my dorm recently. It's been actually, 3-stock 6 minutes best of 5. So far I have not really seen any matches legitimately go to the time limit I used to consider smart bomb a ban-worthy item, but from what I've seen, it almost always damages everyone, and those who know how to DI can and will DI out of it. Those who don't, they're in more trouble.

However, one major difference between my tournaments and ISP was the stagelist, and it's not that ISP's stage list is bad, it's not. About half the stages are legal, which definitely beats the 1/3 I've seen everywhere else. It's just that for me, stages are actually a bigger deal than items. Other noteworthy things I have seen is overall, with the exceptions of Super Sonic and Landmaster, the Smash ball seems very balanced. Though it is pretty much one semi-guaranteed kill, fights over it will last upwards of 20 seconds and there tends to be one player consistantly getting it, not random distribution (It was usually me who got it). The bigger problem I ran into was people circumventing the no-stage 2x per set rule by picking borderline copies of a stage (such as they pick fd, then sville or bridge of eldin)

Before any future tournaments I run, I really want to address that issue.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Smart Bomb's problem is that it explodes when attacked.

I can be in the middle of a guaranteed string only for a Smart Bomb to randomly interrupt it.

If I was playing with Smash Balls I'd run away with Sonic/Wario and get all of my KOs as Super Sonic/Warioman.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Regarding the Smash Ball I think it's a mixed bag. On smaller stages, it's a terrible item because the faster character will get it 70% of the time, often giving them game-breaking advantages.

On the larger stages like Bridge of Eldin however, there's a better chance for the slower player to get it(note, it's probably like a 10-20% increase). It'll probably have to stay banned because most matches are on smaller stages, but I'm just throwing this out there.

 

[Cassio]

Smart Bombs are weird. Its not broken and actually a rather weak item since SDI ruins it. It depends on how important it is that items dont break strings/momentum. If its important it shouldnt be legal, if not then theres probably other items worth consideration as well. Smart bombs as an item though are probably one of the best, it absolutely destroys any form of defensive play and can be extremely strategic in positioning your opponents and creating set ups.

Xona I agree with you about expanding the stagelist with items on. Walk offs in particular shouldnt be that big an issue.

 

[UberMario]

Being able to accidentally set off a Smart Bomb by unintentionally attacking it is enough to ban it completely. For similar reasons, the Gooey Bomb should also be banned.

No items should be able to accidentally kill in competitive play.

 

[John12346]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q4QncSgOT8

 

[Cassio]

^lol

well the big difference between a smart bomb and a gooey is that a smart bomb should never kill anyone or even really do that much damage against someone halfway decent with SDI

 

[Xona]

I personally get the smash ball almost every time, and my main is zelda, NOT sheik, and my secondary is Bowser, then my tertiary is Pit. I break them in the order Zelda most, bowser mid, and pit last, while of the 3 bowser's the slowest and pit's the fastest. (That said, Zelda DOES have Din's fire.) From what I have SEEN, the data is very inconclusive.
The main final smashes that come off as potentially broken are Super Sonic and Landmaster. But I really haven't seen Falco Fox Wolf or Sonic get smash balls anywhere near as often as Zelda, Bowser, Lucario and Ganondorf. Also, my expanded stagelist to 42 makes stage striking take FOREVER.

Now the smart bomb, I used to think it was broken solely off of the fact that it can spawn right in an attack. However when I play-tested it, first in free for alls, I just smash DI'd out of it almost every time. But the people I was playing with, they didn't, so they would get rocked mostly. My item criteria is pretty much this: Character balance/lack thereof, power/reward per risk and/or collection mechanics. (example, Dragoon parts being worthless without the other 2, smashball flying around the stage.) One other potential problem I've noticed with smart bomb, is using it with Din's fire to counter DI or to get extra knockback, still, that needs testing.

Also, to John12346, that was in NO item play, peach pulled a bob-omb with her down-b, still, that is HILARIOUS!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. You are probably bad so your testing with Smash Balls is inconclusive of anything. The fact that you are playing with people that can't SDI indicates this.

2. Warioman is better than Landmasters, probably better than Super Sonic as well.

3. It doesn't matter that you can DI out, damage/stocks is not the only thing that indicates an advantage. An unlucky smart bomb can completely mess up your positional advantage with no chance for you to react to it.

 

[Cassio]

The worst thing about smash balls is they rewards you for being behind. IIRC its easier to break them when youre losing. At that point nothing else needs to be debated.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Right, cause comeback mechanics instantly make games uncompetitive lol

*cough*x-factor*cough*

 

[John12346]

Let me set the record straight: It's not any easier to GET the Smash Ball when you're losing than it is for the guy who's winning. The only thing you get for losing is that the Smash Ball is MUCH harder to have knocked out of you.

And, when I say "losing," I mean you have to be down in stocks. Percentage does not matter in this case.

 

[Cassio]

lol, I dont know how to justify x-factor.

Yeah I figured it had to do with stocks, but I couldve sworn those things were easier to break if you were behind. Not something Ive looked into extensively though.

btw AZ mentioned that with items on a timer was likely not necessary. Anyone else have thoughts on that? I think theres a strong possibility thats true and something we could potentially get rid of in this ruleset.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can see that, yup.

 

[John12346]

Of course, with items activated, you'd see Brawl take an immediate shift towards actual offensive gameplay.

It'd be all about stage control, rushing down, and using those items damn effectively.

 

[UberMario]

btw AZ mentioned that with items on a timer was likely not necessary. Anyone else have thoughts on that? I think theres a strong possibility thats true and something we could potentially get rid of in this ruleset.

There is no point in getting rid of the timer. Sure, matches will be shorter with items, but that doesn't mean that someone won't try to extend the playtime well beyond 8 minutes. Walkoff stages definitely have a higher chance of being legal with items, however.

By the way, how many characters can use the Timer electric exploit? The situational quality of it seems to be more counterpick worthy than banned, in my opinion. Captain Falcon, Zelda, Ganondorf and Samus aren't viable anyway, and how many times would an Olimar have enough yellow Pikmin to continue chaining the stun?

I'm assuming that it mostly has to do with Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus and Lucas, but I haven't tested it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

A couple of things:

* Smart Bombs are such a poorly designed item. The problem isn't necessarily how much damage or KB they do: thanks to SDI, they really shouldn't be doing more than 5-10% damage anyway, and they don't actually kill on their own until WAY past any character's normal KO range (I'm talking about past 150-200%, at least). The problem with the Smart Bomb is:

A ) the hitbox is just huge. It's big enough to not need to aim the damn thing, and when it goes off, it's incredibly disruptive. Really, match flow isn't something you normally consider in banning something, but this thing is just ridiculous. It's not really built to do anything but troll players.
B ) it can go off in front of people's attacks. Enough said there.
C ) it's unpredictable if it's even going to go off in the first place. For no real reason.

Honestly, this is one of those items that is banned because we know that TOs have the final call, and that the ruleset is just a recommendation anyway. We know that TOs can always turn the smart bomb to counter pick if they really want it on.

* Any character that has any electric-type attack can exploit the Timer. Cap's knee, 'Dorf's spike, Pika + Zelda's anything, Oli's yellows, ZSS's whip, Lucas + Ness... it all works. The problem with the Timer is that with any of those characters (Oli not withstanding), it's a trivial matter to rack up over 70-100% damage during a single Timer, which means it's, in all practicality, a OHKO that can only be countered by getting it first. It's really quite ridiculous how it plays out in actual matches. Yes, it's not the whole cast that can exploit it like the whole cast can exploit the Green Shell or Spring, but the fact that it's a trivial kill for so many characters pretty much obliterates the whole "risk / reward" criterion.

* Xona, if you want to post any data / videos you can, please do. Let us know how your tournaments go: we're sorely lacking in people singing our praises. ^_-

 

[Cassio]

lol, I was going to look for other items that activated on hit but couldnt find any. OH WELL!

I honestly dont think A is an issue since the explosion can be very strategic, and its use depends 100% on the person who throws it. B and C I see as sort of the same issue. But yeah, I understand why its likely to be banned, but I can also see it being legal too.

I also realllly think the timer should go away and a few more stages added.

 

[Xona]

* Xona, if you want to post any data / videos you can, please do. Let us know how your tournaments go: we're sorely lacking in people singing our praises. ^_-

Unfortunately, I do not have any vids of the previous tournaments. I can recite by memory who using which characters won the tournaments. First tournament was during summer semseter, teams, 7 teams entered. Team that won was Ganondorf Falco, "2nd" (nobody showed up for loser's bracket, so it became single-elim) was Zelda and Zelda (neither were sheik).

2nd tournament (actually a melee tournament) team first: Peach Sheik/Pichu actually, 2nd: Zelda, Zelda.

3rd tournament, Singles, Pikachu took first, Zelda took second.

Teams: Pikachu and Olimar won. That one didn't really have a second, it went weirdly. 4th tournament was 64 singles and Melee teams. In singles a Falcon/DK took 1st, second was a Fox/Pikachu. Melee teams 1st was a Peach and Sheik. Second was Ice Climbers and Mewtwo, (note, this tournament did not get a good turnout, only 3 teams showed up.)

5th tournament was Brawl teams, again only 3 teams entered. First was a Pikachu/Wolf and a Zero Suit Samus. Second was Zelda Zelda.

Note:

I really want to come up with a way to record all the matches. The problem is I don't have a good video camera, the best thing I have is my broken netbook. And only Brawl has replay saving, which can only be up to 4 minutes without a code. My desktop has a video recording device, though I have only used it to use it as a tv screen so far. I don't know how I'm going to go about recording every match, though my next planned tournament (there isn't a listing yet) isn't until February. I'm THINKING, for Brawl at least, use the infinite replay code (ONLY this one) on my wii, since it already has homebrew channel. And use my computer as a monitor, with the recording device being set to save each match. And then get my netbook repaired and use its webcam on the third station. There are some potential flaws with this recording strategy, tips are apprecia(ted.

Edit: Also, my tournaments have had the item spawn rates set to the highest setting, with the idea that with a larger sample size, the random elements get closer to their theoretical probabilities and makes playing off of the probabilities more effective with less "sheer-dumb-luck". (in quotes because what constitutes this is insanely debatable, but most people have some definition of it.)