Official 'Item Standard Play' Thread (65k views. Not bad for a side project, huh? :P + Poll in OP)

[Jack Kieser]

The ISP thread kind of fell off of the face of Brawl Tactical, so I'm just posting to let everyone know I'm still working on editing the spawn points for all of the stages. Dantarion's BrawllWall program is making this MUCH easier; if anyone has an idea for a good spawn placement on any stage, feel free to submit it, too.

 

[Flayl]

Bumping this in light of stinger's thread because it has really good item analysis in the first post.

 

[The_Guide]

Since you're already hacking the stages for item play, why not try to balance the items? I'd imagine that you'd be able to edit them through hexing, the same way you can edit character projectiles.

Note: I'm just making a suggestion here, I have no clue how to go about doing this. Some of the workshop goers should be able to edit them, if you decide to do it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm sure it could be done, a sort of "BBrawl for Items". If someone wanted to, they could do it, but I'm terrible at hacking; I know next to nothing about hex, and I can only do the stageposition hacks because Dantarion (and now Kryal, with BrawlBox .63b) released a tool that basically does it for me. I'd learn, but honestly, I barely have enough time to change a few points in an array, much less go through an entire balancing project with all 49 items.

It's a nice thought, though. BTW, I'd just ask the Workshop guys to help, but none of them are interested. The only reason we know about the stageposition stuff is because it happened to be included with stage collision hacking. The Workshoppers, to be honest, probably couldn't care less about items; I've asked them for help for like 2 months and got no takers.

 

[The_Guide]

I'll take my chances.

*makes a thread*

For once, I actually have time to learn something like this, thanks to a lucky exam week schedule (6 days off ftw!). If I have any success (doubtful), I'll post back here.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Please do. I'm sure I still have all of my original research and testing documents/worksheets lying around my house somewhere; if so, I'll be able to give you things like kill %'s really easily (not like it'd take much time to figure it all out again). What's nice about items is that the broke ones seem pretty broke conceptually, so it doesn't take much to figure out how to make them not broke... the problem is in finding a balance, not creating new glitches/exploits, not buffing/nerfing too much, etc.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm bumping this so that if anyone else brings items up in the MK debate, it's easy to find the thread.

Also, someone posted a video of Pikachu's Dair absolutely ****** the Cracker Launcher; I'm planning on adding that video to the OP when I get a chance. I think it's pretty good proof that there is plenty we don't know about items, and that having more competitive use of them could teach us a lot.

 

[RDK]

I'm actually interested on the effects of the ISP counterpick list on MK dominance in tournaments.

Maybe there could be experiments tested involving the un-banning of planking and letting characters go up against MK's in a tournament setting with the small ISP list.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So am I, honestly. I keep hearing people say that items could seriously hamper MK's planking, and I'm not convinced that MK can get to items any better than anyone else (he's certainly not the fastest person in the game). Also, sometimes people who play in tournament settings don't fully understand the item CP system (there were people at WHOBO who didn't even use it, even though I got on the loudspeaker and explained the rules multiple times, ).

So, yeah. This is why school makes me sad: less time to host tournaments.

 

[Karcist]

Actually, there is NEVER, and I'll repeat it, NEVER a good reason to pick up a hammer (black variety). Most people don't realize this, but every single hammer swing animation in the game is beaten out by BASIC SHIELDGRABBING. Not even powershield -> grab is necessary. If your opponent actually picks one of those up, run to the nearest edge and camp; if he is smart, he'll stay away. If not, you get a free gimp (just bthrow and forget).

Either way though, if I screwed something up and got KO'ed by a hammer, I would pretty much feel gayed.

 

[Jack Kieser]

That's kind of a BS statement, though; if I screwed ANYTHING up, I'd feel gayed, in some sense. I'm sure most players do, even if they recognize that the mistake was entirely their fault. If you know you can do something, but mess it up, you'll always feel a little cheated; "I do this all the time, but I mess up now?!"

Being completely honest, just don't pick up hammers. Don't do it. Don't turn them on. Don't play with them. Don't try to use them. Don't hope that the opponent will run into it. You will fail, you will get shieldgrabbed, and you will get *****.

 

[Bomber7]

Thanks for the good read. I'm going to have a tournament with items soon. lol I compared what I considered to be neutral to the list on the OP and I was on the right track.

I'll be using this as a reference guide for now on in the future.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm bumping this so that if anyone else brings items up in the MK debate, it's easy to find the thread.

Also, someone posted a video of Pikachu's Dair absolutely ****** the Cracker Launcher; I'm planning on adding that video to the OP when I get a chance. I think it's pretty good proof that there is plenty we don't know about items, and that having more competitive use of them could teach us a lot.

*bump*

'Sup Jack!

I recently saw a video that showed Toon Link's dair stopping a coulpe of Cracker Launcher bullets. So I guess that means any multi hit aerial attack works to defend a player from CL bullets, right? Just like jabs and dash attacks work against a significant amount projectiles and items thrown at you by an opponent.

 

[Super FOG]

Great topic!

Can you make a thread about Final Smashes later?

 

[lordvaati]

I have a question:

is it possible to modify it so that Stickers could be used in Vs. ? I'd like to see how much that could impact the game.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@WW: It would probably be worth testing if any move that does a certain % or has a certain level of priority could stop CL bullets... it's something I haven't really thought about, but knowing what can and can't stop those shots is kind of important to balance.

@Super FOG: Probably not. That's not to say that we can't gather more data on them (lord knows we need all we can get), but a separate thread would probably never happen; if data on them were to be posted, it'd be amended to the OP.

EDIT@vaati: No, I don't think it's possible. I'm pretty sure the Workshop tried that out and came to the conclusion that it couldn't be done.

 

[dustymountain]

Nice idea man! I never considered using items in competitive matches, until now.
Me and a friend did some playing/testing, your idea seems to work well for the most part. I managed to do record a couple tidbits, which may be useful to you...


All the following was done on training mode against a mario (lvl 9) set to stop on final destination, while he is in the middle of the stage. (We used the fact that he lands on the same spot after respawn as the center.) Keep in mind cpu's don't use DI.
I/we were ganon, we just rotated now and then.

dmg = damage
~ = approximately
> = less than (ex 60 > 50)
Most K.O% aren't exact. All dmg values should be exact.
correct grammar isn't used for the sake ease of recording, if you can read internet speak ('noobspeak') you shouldn't have trouble reading it.
All throws are fsmash throws.


ganon uncharged fsmash K.Os at 80% does 24 dmg

ganon uncharged fsmash K.Os at 105% does 19 dmg

Pokeball K.Os at 150% does 15 dmg

Barrel K.Os at 90% does 20 dmg

Crate K.Os at 90% 20 dmg

Capsule does not K.O at 100% 17 dmg

Rolling crate when fsmashed K.Os at >50% (Exact value not tested for, garanteed to kill at 50% though) does 22 dmg
When thrown it is significantly weaker

Blast Box 30 damage per explosion

Dragoon does 40 dmg

Warp star K.Os at 55% (mario grounded, direct hit)
23 dmg

Beam sword fsmash does 11 dmg does not K.O at >150%
Thrown K.Os at 130 does 14 dmg

Lip stick smash attack K.Os at 100% 17 dmg
Thrown does not K.O even at 300%

Hammer K.Os at 60% vertical 23 dmg

Golden hammer K.Os at 60% 30 dmg

Super scope thrown does not K.O at >150%
full charge shot K.Os at 75% does 28 dmg
full automatic does ~40 dmg

Ray gun shot does 4 dmg
when thrown K.Os at 153% 15 dmg

Fire flower ~7% dmg when thrown

Cracker launcher K.Os at 150~% when thrown + does 16 dmg
Single shot does not K.O at >150% does ? dmg

Pitfall - direct hit 16 dmg + meteor spike/bury
If planted into ground 10 dmg

Bumper - K.Os at >50 (O_o)


You may want to use these to supplement your arguments for/against x item.


Ray gun
ray gun lock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMDotHmIvU
1:26 - end
^Is is possible for ganon to escape?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw5PcSYza0U
1:05 - marth death
^Not as good of an example as above though

Cracker launcher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RKvlCh36bA&feature=related
^Shows priority or something similar





Smart bombs for counterpick:
Yes they add more luck in that they can spawn into attacks, but they can be DIed out fairly easily. Aside from bumper, they might be the best anti-plank weapon in the game. Planking seems to be a problem in brawl. The range is so huge, detonate it as planker is grabbing the edge and they won't have enough invincibility frames to avoid all the damage. You said it K.O's at 140 which is quiet high. Not much risk but decent reward.

Pitfall for counterpick:
If hammer is counterpick, pitfall should be as well. Low risk, big reward. A fully charged smash attack from a lot/most/all of the cast can probably rival the hammer in power. The pitfall never goes squeaky either.




Big read huh? Took 3 hours to write all of this (so... please read...)
On a side note, why doesn't smash wiki list item damage output?
Copy and paste anything I posted here, wherever...

 

[Super FOG]

Great post dustymountain

I never thought in Smart Bombs as a anti-planking weapon, nice idea.

I'll make a test soon, and post my impressions.

 

[dustymountain]

Wait some one replied so fast? I was half expecting this thread to be dead.
I'm so touched *sniff*
lol jk

I would do more tests, but I don't have access to my wii currently (and will not for a very long time)... though I got the same friend to do some tests again.

dmg = damage
~ = approximately
> = less than (ex 60 > 50)
Most K.O% aren't exact. All dmg values should be exact.


'Smart bomb: On normal speed, I DI out. Though ganon isn’t fast enough to jump out of range before falling back in. I went from 0% to 14% I avoided 20 dmg. It’s harder/impossible to DI out of the sides, even at 1/4 speed. Escape is possible from top and bottom. Does not K.O at >150%'

Hammer K.Os at 60% vertical 23 dmg
Does not leave you in helpless state after finish, allows immediate use of jump after it finishes. It is possible to short hop with this hammer.

Golden hammer K.Os at 60% 30 dmg
Does not leave you in helpless state after finish, allows immediate use of jump after it finishes. It is possible to short hop with this hammer.





Hammer (time EDITED):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VicUDJYTn4
That is golden hammer getting beat there, I assume the same can happen to reg hammer. Reg hammer users run the risk of losing the hammer head, getting hit by projectiles, long range grabs, short range perfect shield grabs, characters that can use counters, when airborn hammer users can be attacked from below. If all else fails, planking will usually save you. If a hammer loses it's head, the user will most likely be K.Oed by the head, or/and normal attacks.

CONS would be that as someone is planking, you can jump of the stage and hit them after they let go of the edge. When a hammer ends in the air, it does not end in helpless animation, meaning after the hammer ends you can recover. Use golden hammer stall just under the stage edge, after it ends, recover. Reg hammer can do that except you must jump of when the hammer is about to end. You will suicide unless you have good timing and wicked guts. Though even if you do die, your opponent could easily have been stage spiked, or top of screen K.Oed. Of course, if you mess up the timing, the opponent will get the edge invincibility. In order to do that you have to fall of the edge of the stage, meaning opponents could easily juggle kill you.
As far as I can see it, big risk, big reward.


Item standard stages in picture form:

Isp singles:

Isp doubles houston set:

Isp doubles:

 

[Mr.-0]

If the hammer is allowed, why isn't the golden hammer allowed? Seriously, playing with items makes no sense to me.

 

[Life]

I believe the OP explained it pretty well.

However, I did notice one thing:

The Smoke Ball's particle cloud is, most times, not thick enough to really hide the actions of a player unless the player(s)’ obstructed color is similar to the background color of the stage.

There's already an existing rule which allows "players with a color-based disability" to select their team color in 2v2. Would the Smoke Ball require a similar rule?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If the hammer is allowed, why isn't the golden hammer allowed? Seriously, playing with items makes no sense to me.

The hammer is a relatively balanced item. If your opponent grabs a hammer, what are your options?
-Run away
-Block->OOS option
-Powershield->grab
-whack through it with a projectile
-whack through it with large-ranged, fast attacks

Add to it the fact that if your opponent goes offstage, they die, and that the head can fall off...

The golden hammer?
-Run away
-Block->run away
-powershield->run away
-hit it with a laser

That's it. You have no way to really hurt your opponent, and it hits a lot harder too. Oh and running away is more difficult.

 

[Jack Kieser]

BPC is absolutely right. The black hammer is actually SUCH A BAD IDEA to get. Really. I NEVER grab them. Oh, man, it's just so hilariously bad. Powershield -> B-throw off the edge wins every time for anyone without a tether grab, and even then, everyone with a tether grab HAS PROJECTILES. It's just not even a fair fight.

As for those images of the item / stage lists that dustymountain posted, the stage lists are HORRIBLY outdated. Those stage lists are from two SBR rulesets ago, so, yeah, those need to be updated. It IS interesting to see the various ISP item lists in visual form, however. Those might be OP-worthy, if dustymountain is ok with it. I might update them first, depending on if things change or whatever.

Either way... ISP discussion, yay! ^_^

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm having a feeling that Mr. Saturn is too powerful to be a mere neutral. If you block it your shield is getting completely ***** so the best thing - unless you powershield it - is the actually get hit by it. Not that I know too much about it but I can imagine that the stun is enough to combo into stuff out of a regular toss or a glide toss. What can you do if somebody glide tosses a Mr. Saturn at you followed by a quick KO move? Like, let's say MK glide tosses the Mr. Saturn. If you let yourself get hit by it then he might be able to combo it right into dsmash because if you block it your shield will decrease to the point where he can either break it or stab it with the following dsmash making it a low risk / high reward move.

Similar stuff might apply to Diddy (dsmash) and Pit (fsmash). These moves have little startup and can either stab small shields fairly easy (Diddy dsmash) or completely break them (Pit fsmash).
Other potentially broken stuff includes the Mr. Saturn and B-moves that poke shields well or reduce them on hit: Mach Tornado, Shield Breaker, DK Headbutt or Pound just to name a few.

This should at least be tested more before Mr. Saturn is definitely thrown into the neutral pool.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, it might be argued that this is entirely the point of a Mr. Saturn: to give amazing shield pressure in a game devoid of shield pressure, and a way to actually PUNISH people.

For instance, you bring up how you have 3 options to combat a Mr. Saturn: take above-average shield damage, powershield, or eat the hit (putting you in stun). Forgetting the fact that you're forgetting two VERY important moves... actually, no. I'm not going to forget that. You're TOTALLY leaving out spotdodging or SHAD'ing, which will CATCH the Mr. Saturn if timed right.

Many people forget that SHAD is SO very powerful in item play because it allows you to catch ANY thrown item. And since you can throw right out of the air dodge, how great is it to interrupt an approach by returning the Saturn, then capitalizing on the hitstun to counter-punish yourself?

Sure, Saturn gives good shield damage, but the hitstun for eating the hit is tiny, and there are SO many counters to it, anyway. Saturn really isn't THAT amazing. Besides, we NEED the shield pressure in this game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Also, let's not forget instant throwing it back.

 

[BSP]

"Each player may declare stage/item strikes"

How exactly do Item strikes work?

And IMO, you should make the rules stick out a bit more.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, the rules could use some better formatting / more colors / some updating. Basically, item strikes and CP's work like this:

Before match one, the item select screen is verified so that ONLY neutral items are activated. Afterward, each player in the set may choose to strike ANY item from the entirety of that set (Neutral OR Counterpick). Any stricken items CANNOT be active during the set.

Then, character selection and first stage selection. Match one is played. Afterward, (and this hasn't been well tested, so we could see what order this is best in), character / stage picks are made, and right before match 2 starts, item CP's are made. Loser chooses one item to either turn off OR turn on; for instance, he could turn off a neutral item already on, or turn on a CP item not yet active. Winner then gets to do the same; if he wants, he can reverse the choice made by the loser. After that, loser makes one more choice. This is to make sure the loser is guaranteed his CP.

Let's say I want to turn on gooey bombs. I lost, so I turn them on for match 2. The opponent could simply turn them off, eliminating my counterpick, so I get one more choice to make sure that won't happen. The winner of match 1 basically has to choose whether to CP an item of his own, or block my second CP from happening.

Then, match 2 is played. Rinse and repeat for each subsequent match in the set.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

I started a test for the time when items spawn, though as of now I don't have enough data to post it with confidence. If someone has the time, would you mind checking when the first item spawns in every match (all activation ratios I suppose)? As of now I have the feeling it might be a set time.

 

[Mota]

ISP gets my support. I've always thought with the inclusion of a select few items, the Brawl metagame (which is supposedly shallower then Melees) would be a lot deeper.

With the minimal hitstun, items provide options to approach and pull off 'combos'. As a Toon Link main, with his own item -bombs- it's one of his best assets. Provides a plethora of options, JC throws, z-dropping, ibombing and sets ups kills and successful attacks.
Aids characters with no projectile to combat planking, and those with bad approaches (Gdorf) with something.

Short hop AD would definitely be vital in ISP, as well as insta-throw. A high level Diddy vs Toon Link match in normal Brawl utilizes a lot of these seeing as both rely heavily on their 'items' being thrown back and forth at one another. Picking up items with landing AD/aerial is also something most people don't do. They usually DA or just walk up and press A.

Glide tossing and Jump cancelled throws is the wavedash of Brawl, just a shame only a few charters have items, and of those characters only a few have the ability glide toss.

Be interesting to see how MK would benefit from being able to glide toss continuously in all matchups and not just when vsing Diddy and picking up his nanas lol.

 

[Sleek Media]

Obviously, I support this. Smash NEEDS items. It's a huge part of the game, and it fixes many matchup problems.

 

[Technodeath]

Or makes the matchup problems worse.

 

[chaosmaster1991]

We'll never know though, as it was barely tested, let alone in the near past.

 

[PK-ow!]

Before match one, the item select screen is verified so that ONLY neutral items are activated. Afterward, each player in the set may choose to strike ANY item from the entirety of that set (Neutral OR Counterpick). Any stricken items CANNOT be active during the set.

Then, character selection and first stage selection. Match one is played. Afterward, (and this hasn't been well tested, so we could see what order this is best in), character / stage picks are made, and right before match 2 starts, item CP's are made. Loser chooses one item to either turn off OR turn on; for instance, he could turn off a neutral item already on, or turn on a CP item not yet active. Winner then gets to do the same; if he wants, he can reverse the choice made by the loser. After that, loser makes one more choice. This is to make sure the loser is guaranteed his CP.

Let's say I want to turn on gooey bombs. I lost, so I turn them on for match 2. The opponent could simply turn them off, eliminating my counterpick, so I get one more choice to make sure that won't happen. The winner of match 1 basically has to choose whether to CP an item of his own, or block my second CP from happening.

Then, match 2 is played. Rinse and repeat for each subsequent match in the set.

If I understand this right, then in any one game, only a small number of [COUNTERPICK] items can possibly be on?
Specifically, three?

Or, do the CPs stick across the set, so that, in a 2 of 3, possibly 6 items from that category may be on in game 3?


And similarly, at most 3 / 6 items from [NEUTRAL] will be off in any game of the set?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because I care...

Here are my opinions on where item spawn points should be on stages:
a) High enough that they do not interfere with combat on spawn.
REASON: Obviously because of the randomness of items, players need to be able to predict them or see them coming before they become a part of gameplay.
b) Spawn in the central area of the stage.
REASON: Centralizes gameplay to the center of the stage, where it is more difficult to KO the opponent, but hanging around their may give you the chance to get an item.
c) 3 Spawn points for every stage (with exceptions if necessary).
REASON: Too few promotes item-spawn camping, too much makes it too random. I think 3 is the perfect number.
d) Similar pattern betweens stages.
REASON: Simplicity, and so player's don't need to memorize vastly different item spawns on different stages.

As an example, here are the starter stages with the above guidelines followed:

The pattern I've chosen is for 1 spawn-point in the centre of the stage, and the other to the left and right of that center spawn point. On stages with the three-platform-layout (like Battlefield), the items will spawn on the edges of the two side-platforms.

I hope this all makes sense.

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't see why you'd need a set number of spawn points (especially as few as 3). I can, however, see why you'd want to set spawn points high above the stage. Honestly, I don't really care about the details - I just like items. ^ ^

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see why you'd need a set number of spawn points (especially as few as 3). I can, however, see why you'd want to set spawn points high above the stage. Honestly, I don't really care about the details - I just like items. ^ ^

I explained that, too many spawn points will increase the chance of item-falls being random, taking away from the skill of using items, while too few will make item-falls too predictable and lead to item-spawn camping.

 

[Sleek Media]

In that case, I'd consider three to fall in the "camping" category. If you're gonna limit things, make it no less than seven, though you might as well make it completely random. The purpose of having more than one spawn point is to make sure you can't camp for items, so if it's random, you achieve the desired result.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In that case, I'd consider three to fall in the "camping" category. If you're gonna limit things, make it no less than seven, though you might as well make it completely random. The purpose of having more than one spawn point is to make sure you can't camp for items, so if it's random, you achieve the desired result.

Testing would be required to check if 3 causes camping or not. I made the spawns in the centre of the stages anyway so camping there isn't as effective anyway. If we do too many and it is completely random, it increases the chance of lucky item falls, if the player can predict to a certain degree where they will spawn, this will not happen as often.

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't understand why you think limiting the number of spawns to anything more than zero eliminates the "luck" of having an item drop nearby. It's basically like this:

*item drops
*do you want this item?
- yes
...*are you able to reach it before the opponent?
...- yes (grab it)
...- no (do something else)
- no
...*grab it anyway and toss it away
...*ignore it

The line in bold is all that matters. Whether there's three spawn points, or thirty, that's the single condition that determines the "luck" of the item spawn. As long as even a single spawn point exists, this question can work both ways and be "lucky" for one side or the other. Therefore, you might as well enable many spawn points to make things more interesting.