Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Giga Wario]

I've edited my tier list now (except for Sonic, who I don't agree with.

I really think Marth is getting much more credit than he deserves. Sure he's still good, but compared to Melee, he's recieved more nerfs than buffs so I think Marths placing was justified.

 

[Mmac]

It seems like Sonic is the new Yoshi now >_>

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I've edited my tier list now (except for Sonic, who I don't agree with.

I really think Marth is getting much more credit than he deserves. Sure he's still good, but compared to Melee, he's recieved more nerfs than buffs so I think Marths placing was justified.

But Marth/G&W/Falco/DDD/ROB/Snake(?) are so close together on the tier list, they are pretty much the same on the tier list(with snake being a bit ahead)

 

[Inuashakent]

Where can I find chillindude's tier list?

 

[cutter]

That list isn't flawless; im not being biased but why is toon link so low. Toon link is high tier material.

He's high tier on paper, but his poor tourney results show otherwise. He is still in the D rank and hasn't changed place recently.

You don't get high up on the tier list through theorycraft (that was the sole reason why everyone thought TL was top tier in March); you do it in the actual Smash scene.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've edited my tier list now (except for Sonic, who I don't agree with.
.

Who cares if you do not agree on Sonic. His tourney rank (21) ruins any possibility of him being a bottom tier character.

Seriously I wish people would stop being biased towards Sonic.

Christ its like the whole Link ^B issue from melee (which should never happen)

 

[Tenki]

It seems like Sonic is the new Yoshi now >_>

Shadowlink just makes it look that way.

I think I used to argue against the whole Sonic being bottom thing, but I really don't care anymore. I'm competent with Sonic and I outplay the majority of my opponents regardless of their character, and tier lists won't affect how I play.

This will be the last time that I'll give a serious comment on where I think Sonic should be tierwise:

Mid (anywhere in mid, but probably lower Mid)/upper Low.

His character attributes (speed, inherent combo, mobility) are well supported by Brawl's "campy" characteristics, ease of pshield, as well as the whole landing lag deal. The majority of his approaches are cancellable, and he's one of the few characters who can feint you out and still have the speed/reach to punish your reaction.

He has a freakish Glide Toss range, which can be used to his advantage when playing against item-using characters, and he actually has a bunch of moves with decent priority (U-air, F-air, Side-B [via invincibility frames], Spring, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and F-tilt).

He can't really be bottom because he has rather decent tournament placing anyway.

 

[GoForkUrself]

Changes:I'm giving ToonLink enough of a Luigi boost as it is. Can't move him up any higher cuz he can't even do as well as Sonic on the tourney scene.

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake


Higher:
Mr.Game and Watch
DeDeDe
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco


High:

Wario
Pikachu
DK
Lucario
Olimar
Ice Climbers


Middle:
Diddy
Kirby
Pit
Zero suit Samus
Wolf
Peach
Toon Link
Bowser
Zelda/Sheik
Lucas
Fox
Zelda


Low:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Ness
Mario
Ike
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Sheik


Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

I did this list without counting, and it turned out pretty well. 13 above middle, and 13 below middle. I feel it's pretty balanced, but I may have screwed up locations since I don't know about all of their metagames(like I've never seen a Kirby at a tournament). Also as I said before, I do look at tournament rankings, but this is mostly based on opinion. We all know Luigi is the least used tournament character, so I don't want people saying he is bottom tier when we all know he isn't. He might be low tier, but I don't know.
Since I have not seen all these characters in tournaments, I will need your help to get this list going. I'd like this list to be good enough to be a solid guideline until we get an official list.

 

[DanGR]

Who cares if you do not agree on Sonic. His tourney rank (21) ruins any possibility of him being a bottom tier character.

Seriously I wish people would stop being biased towards Sonic.

Christ its like the whole Link ^B issue from melee (which should never happen)

haha, Sonic has more priority than Olimar, but look at where people rank him. lol

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Idd just like 2 say "teirz R 4 queerz" 2 of my mains are j-puff and DDD after all

 

[Ilex]

Changes:I'm giving ToonLink enough of a Luigi boost as it is. Can't move him up any higher cuz he can't even do as well as Sonic on the tourney scene.

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake


Higher:
Mr.Game and Watch
DeDeDe
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco


High:

Wario
Pikachu
DK
Lucario
Olimar
Ice Climbers


Middle:
Diddy
Kirby
Pit
Zero suit Samus
Wolf
Peach
Toon Link
Bowser
Zelda/Sheik
Lucas
Fox
Zelda


Low:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Ness
Mario
Ike
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Sheik


Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

I did this list without counting, and it turned out pretty well. 13 above middle, and 13 below middle. I feel it's pretty balanced, but I may have screwed up locations since I don't know about all of their metagames(like I've never seen a Kirby at a tournament). Also as I said before, I do look at tournament rankings, but this is mostly based on opinion. We all know Luigi is the least used tournament character, so I don't want people saying he is bottom tier when we all know he isn't. He might be low tier, but I don't know.
Since I have not seen all these characters in tournaments, I will need your help to get this list going. I'd like this list to be good enough to be a solid guideline until we get an official list.

This list looks pretty accurate.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Shadowlink just makes it look that way.

I think I used to argue against the whole Sonic being bottom thing, but I really don't care anymore. I'm competent with Sonic and I outplay the majority of my opponents regardless of their character, and tier lists won't affect how I play.

This will be the last time that I'll give a serious comment on where I think Sonic should be tierwise:

Mid (anywhere in mid, but probably lower Mid)/upper Low.

His character attributes (speed, inherent combo, mobility) are well supported by Brawl's "campy" characteristics, ease of pshield, as well as the whole landing lag deal. The majority of his approaches are cancellable, and he's one of the few characters who can feint you out and still have the speed/reach to punish your reaction.

He has a freakish Glide Toss range, which can be used to his advantage when playing against item-using characters, and he actually has a bunch of moves with decent priority (U-air, F-air, Side-B [via invincibility frames], Spring, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and F-tilt).

He can't really be bottom because he has rather decent tournament placing anyway.

Agreed, who cares what people think? It doesn't affect the way we play.
People only think he sucks because they suck with him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Idd just like 2 say "teirz R 4 queerz" 2 of my mains are j-puff and DDD after all

Reported for great Justice.

Smooth Criminal

 

[fkacyan]

haha, Sonic has more priority than Olimar, but look at where people rank him. lol

Lollllwut?

Sonic has more priority than Olimar?

What the hell gave you that idea?

EDIT: People think Sonic is bad because he is bad. I'm sorry that you guys think otherwise, but, um... He doesn't do well across all regions. Much of his rank comes from the same people in the same regions, which doesn't influence many people's opinions at all.

 

[Tenki]

Lollllwut?

Sonic has more priority than Olimar?

What the hell gave you that idea?

EDIT: People think Sonic is bad because he is bad. I'm sorry that you guys think otherwise, but, um... He doesn't do well across all regions. Much of his rank comes from the same people in the same regions, which doesn't influence many people's opinions at all.

Oh Sonic IS bad. I (and I think ROOOOY!) can agree that we do better with Sonic than we would with any other character so it doesn't matter to us where he is on the tier list. lol


Sonic has a bunch of moves that either nullify or outprioritize Olimar completely.

Those moves that I listed down can almost all be used to outprioritize things like MK tornado/ side-B/glide attack/N-air. His F-air and B-air eat many projectiles, including things like ZSS shot, etc.

Heck, Sonic's up-tilted Fsmash > Wario's Bite. So whatever lol.

It's the nature of Sonic's priority/game to attack where his opponent's attackbox isn't protecting. Anyone who's played a Sonic main can probably attest to this.

 

[LCB12321]

the best characters or the ones with the most options for tournament play would be....

metaknight,snake,dedede,wario,r.o.b,g&w

after that things get hazy u could say marth and falco are up there but when it comes down to it they have less options than other high ranking charatacters, marth play consits of side-b and random tippers, and falco is lazer spam chain throw etc... i see other characters with more potential eventually beating them out DK,olimar,lucario,diddy.....

I feel marth and falco will eventually fall somewhere around pit wolf and ice climbers in above average tier.

Ice climbers could be top tier with chainthrows, its pretty ridiculous...

I feel kirby and fox are a mid-tier characters and anyone saying otherwise is wrong..

now bring on the marth/falco are amazing!!!! ur ******** disscusion

(and ill pre-counter ur argument with falco is a clunky, spaming waste of a character)

 

[Tenki]

the best characters or the ones with the most options for tournament play would be....

metaknight,snake,dedede,wario,r.o.b,g&w

after that things get hazy u could say marth and falco are up there but when it comes down to it they have less options than other high ranking charatacters, marth play consits of side-b and random tippers, and falco is lazer spam chain throw etc... i see other characters with more potential eventually beating them out DK,olimar,lucario,diddy.....

I feel marth and falco will eventually fall somewhere around pit wolf and ice climbers in above average tier.

Ice climbers could be top tier with chainthrows, its pretty ridiculous...

I feel kirby and fox are a mid-tier characters and anyone saying otherwise is wrong..

now bring on the marth/falco are amazing!!!! ur ******** disscusion

(and ill pre-counter ur argument with falco is a clunky, spaming waste of a character)

lol 'random' tippers.

IC chaingrabs aren't too hard to screw up. Walking away could screw up their grab approach, and hitting them apart screws their synch. `.`; They have exploitable flaws that keep them from being higher on the list.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah, Sonic's not a great character, I just thought people had got over the whole 'no priority bottom tier' deal. Apparently not.
He deserves like bottom of mid IMO.
Meh I'm not gonna argue, people are only gonna talk about how bad Sonic is in a few days time and it's all back to square one knowledgewise.

 

[a77]

A - Meta Knight, Snake
B - Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede
C - Donkey Kong, Marth, Falco, R.O.B, Lucario, Wario
D - Diddy Kong, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Pit, Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, Fox
E - Olimar, Peach, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu
F - Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Bowser, Mario, Pokemon Trainer
G - Sonic, Yoshi, Samus, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf
H - Link, Jigglypuff

That's my current feelings on the matter. Divisions seperated wherever I feel there's a small gap in playability.

 

[Clai]

It seems like GANONDORF is the new Yoshi now >_>

Fixed that for you. Seriously, put Ganondorf in a matchup argument against anybody and everyone will instantly put Ganon in the disadvantage. Even in a Ganondorf vs. Ganondorf matchup, both would have the disadvantage!

Yoshi is a bit quirky, but not horrble by any means. I'd say Yoshi is somewhere equal to Link, and I say that as a gut feeling without any knowledge of tournament standings for either character whatsoever.

Sonic, however, I find unplayable. I don't say he's crap tier, but I personally can't play him. His attacks and movement just go outside of my understanding. Plus, I would not be able to last 10 seconds without abusing the foward-smash charge animation and "YOU'RE TOO SLOW!" People really need to start using that taunt for mindgames.

Again, do not use my statements as a basis for anything. He probably has the edge on quite a few people; I just don't understand Sonic. In fact I fear anybody who's good with him because I wouldn't know what to do.

 

[Charizard92]

High tier:
Squirtle


Middle Tier:
Pokemon Trainer (Rotation)


Low Tier:
Charizard
Ivysaur

To those who try to individually place each of PT's Pokemon on the tier list. I beg of you, please actually check up on the PT thread. I don't disagree with the PT mid placement (if I'm actually lucky, this is where he should go), the Pokemon, I have to say **** no. If you actually pay attention to the PT boards, you should know that Charizard is the MOST reliable, and thus, would be higher tier. Conversely, You should know that Squirtle is the LEAST reliable of the three, and should be low tier (****, I wouldn't be surprised if Squirtle is bottom tier). That is all.

 

[LCB12321]

A - Meta Knight, Snake
B - Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede
C - Donkey Kong, Marth, Falco, R.O.B, Lucario, Wario
D - Diddy Kong, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Pit, Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, Fox
E - Olimar, Peach, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu
F - Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Bowser, Mario, Pokemon Trainer
G - Sonic, Yoshi, Samus, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf
H - Link, Jigglypuff

That's my current feelings on the matter. Divisions seperated wherever I feel there's a small gap in playability.

NOOOOO, olimar is like 10x better than fox, atleast.... nice attempt though

 

[ShadowLink84]

haha, Sonic has more priority than Olimar, but look at where people rank him. lol

Really?
I thought Sonic had less priority than olimar.

Lollllwut?

Sonic has more priority than Olimar?

What the hell gave you that idea?

I am curious to this as well.
Though it might be because a number of Sonic's attacks break through the pikmin rather than cancel.

EDIT: People think Sonic is bad because he is bad.

yes which is how they justify sticking him in bottom tier right?

I'm sorry that you guys think otherwise, but, um...

Making such statements make you appear rather condescending don't you think so?

He doesn't do well across all regions. Much of his rank comes from the same people

X, 2nd out of 26 @ METAL AWESOME
X, 3rd out of 36 @ METAL AWESOME 2
X, 2nd of 19 @ METAL AWESOME 3.
X, 2nd out of 26 @ METAL AWESOME 4
-X 2nd of 20 @ METAL AWESOME 5

Boxob, 4th out of 36 @ Castle Golf Fight Night
- Mr 3000, 1st of 49 @ Final Smash 3 : The New Frontier
Mr. 3000 3rd of 88 @ HOBO 8
memphischains, 9th of 46 in Singels @ Brandeis University SSBB Singles Tourney
memphischains 3rd of 14 @ ******* and Root Beer
LuCKy, 1st of 28 in Brawl Singles at Race's -562- Brawl Garage Tourney II: Summer Beat
LuCKy, 2nd of 43 in Singles, 3rd of 19 in Doubles @ Triweekly XIX
pirateguru, 5th of at least 16 @ San Garden Xpress
spin-dash 9th of 27, @ CT4 SSBB Singles
InterimofZeal, 7th of 42 @ Summer Slugger 1
Blue, 9th out of 49 @ Montage's No Nonsense 2
Blue, 7th of 44 @ S.W.R Event 4
da K.I.D 1st out of 16 @ Arena 51 Rochester New York Biweekly
MalcomM 9th, @SWR IV

_X_ has gotten 5/19 of Sonic's placings. Less than 1/3rd
The number of people placing well with Sonic is 11.
So those 11 people gained 14 wins.

The same people argument is not valid because X is not making up a majority of the placings.
Hell he doesn't even make 1/3rd.
The other 14 go to 11 different people.

If you look at Lucario's tournament behavior the same could be said for Lucario.
The only ones that can really be said to have different people placing well are those higher up like MK, Snake, DDD an the like.

Those same people do not skew the results considering the only one there placing consistently is X. And he does not make up even 1/3rd of sonic's placement.

in the same regions, which doesn't influence many people's opinions at all.

Midwest Rankings
C: Sonic

Atlantic North Rankings
C: Sonic

Atlantic South Rankings
U:Sonic

Pacific West Rankings
C: Sonic

Southwest Rankings
C: Sonic

The only place he doesn't have a C ranking in is Atlantic South Rankings.
So the region argument does not work.

What about Lucario? Azen has more wins than __X__ does for Lucario yet I see no one discussing how Lucario may not be as good as he seems because of it.

In anycase Sonic is definitely NOT bottom tier material. top of low tier maybe but I think he is probably in lower mid tier.

 

[a77]

NOOOOO, olimar is like 10x better than fox, atleast.... nice attempt though

You're right. I meant to switch Fox and Olimar.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I believe DDD should be in the top tier category along with MK and Snake. He has very few bad match ups.

 

[ShadowLink84]

DDD has more bad matchups than people think.
He has no hard counters but he isn't that great as people think.
Probably below Marth in terms of how good he is maybe higher due to how well he has been doing.

 

[Grunt]

Dedede is third in rankings by a large margin on both ends. far from MK's rankings and Game and Watch's.
Oh wait it's updated.
Now he's not doing as well, but is still third.
Also, MK finally passed Snake. PROOF OF HIS BROKENNESS!

 

[LCB12321]

DDD is freakin amazing, he may have some counters but hes still a solid character. Not top tier but close to it. hes alot better than marth/falco thats for sure.
soooo ya i think r.o.b is top tier, prove me wrong... (besides tourny placing)

 

[Grunt]

That's like saying Coke>Pepsi, but don't take taste into account.

 

[Twilght Link]

Metaknight should be in a tier of his own: he has near lagless moves, the fastest attack speed in the game, one of the best recoveries in the game, high priority, has almost no bad matchups (in fact he usually IS everyone's worst matchup), etc

 

[DanGR]

Really?
I thought Sonic had less priority than olimar.

Olimar's pikmin attacks don't have priority. Every attack has priority over them. What makes them seem to have high priority is their speed. They're so fast that in certain situations, attacks with no priority are better than those with priority just b/c of how fast the hitbox comes out. Test it yourself.

 

[fkacyan]

Olimar's pikmin attacks don't have priority. Every attack has priority over them. What makes them seem to have high priority is their speed. They're so fast that in certain situations, attacks with no priority are better than those with priority just b/c of how fast the hitbox comes out. Test it yourself.

... No, they have priority.

 

[fkacyan]

ShadowLink, all of his good rankings over the past few months have come from about 5 people or so. A character who is actually good will have diversity in who places with them, and that character will place WELL across regions. C rank is not good. C rank is bad. That data supports my reasoning.

I did not say Sonic was bottom tier, either. I said he was low tier, as I have said many times. When somebody other than Mr. 3000 consistently does well in more than one region at tournies that are bigger than 32 people, I'll start thinking Sonic has potential. At the moment, I don't see Sonic doing that, so he's in low.

EDIT: Sonic's also U in the Pacific West, btw.

 

[DanGR]

... No, they have priority.

like... you wanna name an attack that doesn't have priority over them?

 

[Grunt]

Priority...>.> It's a mix of Range, speed, and how much collision 2 hitboxes are exposed during the attack.
since pikmin have speed and range and collision 1 hitboxes, they have "priority".

 

[popsofctown]

Two lines turned into an essay.... oh well

That's like saying Coke>Pepsi, but don't take taste into account.

Actually it's like saying Coke>Pepsi but don't take sales into account.


@above post: YES Meta knight is in his own tier. It will take a while for people to drop Snake from off his tier, which is for Meta Knight's own self. When a midtier fights a high tier it's hard, when a midtier fights MK it's like a whole other big step. Fighting Snake isn't any harder than those other high tiers though.

The reason a few people mistakenly put Snake on the same tier as MK, or even put Snake above MK, is because of the payoff problem.

By payoff, i mean: the magnitude of the positive outcome of a move. Luigi's ftilt has a pretty low payoff, it doesn't do much damage, drastically move your opponent to a different position, and it doesn't have good KO power. Ganondorf's uptilt, one of the worst moves in the game, has an extremely high payoff. It does lots of damage, and has very good KO power. It will also put your opponent off the edge most of the time, which puts you in an advantaged position.


At the lowest, lowest levels of play, payoff is a majorly important part of the game. Characters without lots of payoffs on their moves will tend to lose. Since novices don't know how to use spacing and advantages to get more hits, they will each get roughly equal amounts of hits, and your better off if that hit is Ike's upsmash or Dedede's Fsmash.

As we move to higher levels of play, payoff begins to matter less and less. It becomes more important that you can manage to land the move against evasive opponents than it is that your move has good payoff. Payoff remains an important part of the game, but it's not as important. The longer you play a game, the less you will use moves like Lucas' upsmash.

Technically, if we ever came to a point where perfect players were playing perfect players, payoff would become totally irrelevant. All that would matter is if a move had any payoff at all. Any attacks that don't have extremely good usability would never land, but if there was a way for them to land they would land every time, and the perfect players would rack to 500% and kill with a low risk move rather than tap the button for a long pre-lag move and pray.

The metagame of Melee is pretty supportive to the notion that payoff becomes less important over time. DK, Ganondorf, and Bowser all have high payoff moves, but are horrible characters.


Snake has both very good payoff and very good usability (ability to land moves). Meta Knight has somewhat low payoff, and even better usability. Although Snake is a high tier character, it takes a great amount of experience before he comes down from top tier. It's about how far we move along the spectrum between spamming Ike's smashes, and perfect players with absolutely no regard for payoff. Some regions of the country haven't traveled far enough across the spectrum for MK to pass Snake, and far enough for MK's usability to put him a full tier higher than Marth, G&W, and Snake.

 

[isomorphism]

Unfortunately DK isn't a horrible character by any stretch of the imagination, which is really just the first flaw in your argument. G&W has insanely powerful smashes even if they're hard to land, and he's pretty high up there. D3 is one of the heaviest characters in the game and he does incredibly well because of his range (including grab and a CG on like 2/3s of the cast)--which you totally disregarded in your analysis, and which plays at least a big a part in Snake's tournament placement as his power. Samus has lagless aerials, Z-air, many options, and tons of ways to attack people, and she's pretty terrible, because she's not powerful enough to actually kill. Pit can get tons of virtually free hits on people and he isn't doing nearly as well at tournies as he used to, for a variety of reasons. I really don't think putting so much emphasis on payoff / ability to hit people alone is going to get you anywhere.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink, all of his good rankings over the past few months have come from about 5 people or so. A character who is actually good will have diversity in who places with them, and that character will place WELL across regions. C rank is not good. C rank is bad. That data supports my reasoning.

I'll touch on two things.
For one a good character does NOT necessarily have a diversity of people winning with them. Mainly because that would assume that all those people were all playing in large tournaments and all had similar skill level.

Saying if a character is good a diversity of people will win is untrue.
Since that would rely on the character being popular and that all those people having similar skill level which will NOT happen.

How many Sonic users can you name are as good as_X_? Or IOZ?
Not many as is the other characters.
Just because a character is top tier doesn't mean they will have a diversit of people winning witht hem. That wasn't true in melee and it isn't true now.

As for what you think of C rank I don't care.
My idea on what is bad or good differs from yours, im my opinion C rank is decent
They aren't consider good but they aren't bad either.

I did not say Sonic was bottom tier, either. I said he was low tier, as I have said many times.

I never said you did u.

When somebody other than Mr. 3000 consistently does well in more than one region at tournies that are bigger than 32 people, I'll start thinking Sonic has potential. At the moment, I don't see Sonic doing that, so he's in low.

Did you skim my post?
Go back and read it again, you'll see Mr X, Lucky, Memphis chains both of which have placed well with Sonic.

As for you acknowledging his potential I cannot understand how you couldn't.
If Sonic was as bad as people said then why did he rise up in rank placement?
He went up from 26 to 21 in the span of a month.

That alone should indicate the character has some potential, especially if he is dealing with high tier characters whom, for the most part, he has a disadvantage against.

EDIT: Sonic's also U in the Pacific West, btw.

Whoops made an error when I had been making my post.

That still shoots down the same region argument.
I think the reason he is U in those two areas is because there aren't any good Sonic mainers.
Those tend to be from the other 3 areas.

 

[DanGR]

Ok. Let me put it this way. He has priority, but it's very low. His attacks can actually clink with other aerials. Two notables(characters that are known to have bad priority) that have priority over Olimar's pikmin attacks are Sonic and Yoshi.

ex.1
Olimar's dair will represent his overall priority. Toon Link's upair will represent everyone else's.

Olimar is falling towards Tlink. He dairs about 1 pikmin length away from tlink's upair. Tlink upairs at the same time. They collide. Assuming they have the same range, this is what takes place:

1.)Same range.
2.)They both have disjointed hitboxes.
3.)Their speed isn't accounted for b/c both hitboxes are out at the same time.

Olimar's dair will lose to the upair. The upair will kill the pikmin and will continue to go through it to Olimar.

ex.2
Olimar's fair will represent his overall priority. Mario's bair will represent everyone else's priority.

Olimar jumps towards Mario with a fair. The pikmin reaches Mario as he does his attack. Mario's attack is a bair. here's what we have:

1.)Olimar has more range
2.)Olimar has the disjointed hitbox
3.)Their speed won't be accounted for b/c both hitboxes are out at the same time.

Olimar's fair will lose to the bair. Why you ask? the bair will go through the pikmin attack. It will kill the pikmin. It's not a matter of priority.

Strangely, Olimar's upair ignores this. His upair has incredible priority for some reason.

W/e though. If y'all don't care, it's fine by me.

Also,
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184834

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think the reason the Uair might ignore it is because it hits multiple times rather than just once.
So it gives it a chance to use the priority given. Just a theory though.