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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
remeber, its not just tournament results, match-ups are another crucial part in placing a character in a tier, in which wario is at a disadvantange against the high/top tier characters and has many neutral match-ups,which put him into the upper tier.
Lucas has better match-ups and tournament placings than ness. thats the reason why lucas places higher.
Ness has not done well in tournaments and has a few hard counters he is a candidate for the low tier and I believe with the evidence I have attained he will not rise much.
Luigi is another character who has not done that well in tournaments andhas sub-par match-ups so I can accurately state that Luigi is not a middle tier character due to lack of tournament placement and bad match-ups.
As for your tier list, putting the characters in no specific order really dosent help create an accurate tier list beacuse most of the smashboards community agrees on what specific tier a certain character is located in at this point in the metagame. An accurate tier has an order, and thus is more vividly describes the metagame at this time.
Snake and MK are top tier for thier profusion of high tournament placings and their great match-ups against most of the characters.
Pikachu has not done as well as Snake and MK in tournies and has problems with some of his match-ups. G&W has not done as well as Snake and MK in tournies and his match-ups are slightly not as good as those two so he can be accurately placed at the top of the high tier.
Ness is not in the high tier with the lack of tournament placings and bad match-ups.\
Ike is not the worst character in the game when he has had tournament sucess that other characters have not attained and he does not have the worst match-ups in the game either.
5 tiers would not accurately describe the current metagame as there is a group of characters that are slightly under snake and MK in tournaments and match-ups(i.e. high tier G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,Falco) and another group under the "high" tier who seperate them selves from the average but do not have the tournies placings or the match-ups that are equal to the "high" tier, and so this group above the middle and below the high is the upper tier.
There are other problems in your list that I cannot advise you on beacuse I have to do something more important.
We are all just trying to make an accurate tier list and I believe the best way to do that is by ankoku's tournament rankings,all the match-up threads, and information from knowledgeable people(i.e. ch0zen one,emblem lord) and disscussion in the thread with evidence to back up a character's placing, which I have taken all into account when creating my list. I hope that you have tried to do that same ,so that smashboards can agree on a list that accurately describes the current metagame.
@DanGR lol thanks for the complement I will work on the low tier after there people on the thread feel as if there are no faults with the tiers I have have already created, the I will proceed in finishing the list.
Wolfgang457
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2007
- Messages
- 202
The list seems pretty solid and I think you're doing a great thing here by making it tier by tier with input. Without further ado my 2cents.
First off is Toon Link. I personally think he's in the same boat as Diddy being a great theorycraft character who hasn't really had those great tourney outings. Yet Diddy is placed about mid-mid while he's in upper. While a great character I think he may have been overestimated with some of those below him having better tourney records so far with others around his general area. Until he churns out stronger tourney outings I think he should be moved to Mid tier near the top.
With that said I also believe that Sonic, Sheik, Luigi, and Mario should move up to mid near the bottom.
My personal reworking of the list.
Fox (what can I say he's been doing fairly well at tourneys so far even got a recent win)
Toon Link
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS
Luigi
Sheik
Sonic
Mario
Hope you appreciate my input and keep up the good work.
edit: I also approve of your PT suggestion
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Misunderstood what you said earlier.
In general the usage of Sonic is low.
The great majority of wannabe's don't use Sonic nor think of using him in a tournament.
Not true, DK has risen in tier lists because he is a good character to use against MK and Snake.
Not only that I mentioned several other matchups to show that Sonic's matchups aren't as bad as people may think.
This does not apply to any character. I highly doubt you will EVER see an aggressive Olimar.
Snake never goes offensive, his game is defensive and bait.
His defensive game is better than his offensive game, which is why he can have problems with campers such as Olimar.
Link will rarely play offensively.
Yes you can play anyway you want with a character but that doesn't mean its a successful strategy for that character.
Not only that I said ONE of the characters meaning more than one.
In Brawl certain strategies work better than others, for Sonic and pika, they are one of the characters whose playstyles vary differently and could still be equally effective.
They aren't as rigid in their playstyles as say Bowser, Link and Olimar.
Browny
Smash Hater
this isnt the matchup discussion thread lol.
anyway ill say this. Sonics disadvantage matchups are grossly overestimated. marth, G&W, MK, snake, wario yeah they all **** him pretty bad but thats it. he cant be camped at all, cant be gimped off stage and is difficult to kill as long as he doesnt miss with a usmash.
anyway ill say this. Sonics disadvantage matchups are grossly overestimated. marth, G&W, MK, snake, wario yeah they all **** him pretty bad but thats it. he cant be camped at all, cant be gimped off stage and is difficult to kill as long as he doesnt miss with a usmash.
Monshou_no_Nazo
Smash Journeyman
this isnt the matchup discussion thread lol.
Seriously, matchups are a large part of tier lists, aren't they?
Browny
Smash Hater
yes they are, but that doesnt change the fact that they are overestimated at this point in time
Monshou_no_Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Which is why I'm seeing Hizzlum look at both tournament results and matchups to attempt to accurately judge a character's worth.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
DK hasn't risen only because he's a good counter to Snake and DK, if you haven't Noticed he's beating out Every Single character in tournament outings right now outside of the Sacred Seven (ROB, G&W,Wario,Marth,King DDD,Snake,MK). That has to clue in he's much better than many thought, and it's showing in tournaments
"DK hasn't risen only because he's a good counter to Snake and DK"
LoL did you mean DK is a good counter to MK? >_> No johns.
And I don't really understand your wording, do you mean that he beats everyone in the "Sacred Seven" or he beats everyone EXCEPT them?
LoL did you mean DK is a good counter to MK? >_> No johns.
And I don't really understand your wording, do you mean that he beats everyone in the "Sacred Seven" or he beats everyone EXCEPT them?
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
sorry but I post crap in posts lol
First off, I said MANY not ANY.
Secondly, I mentioned Pika and you just backed what I said up there. This also applies to MANY other characters. NOT Snake etc, like you said. That's obvious lol
Thirdly, this isn't the first time you've completely misread a post is it? lol
I like what you're doing regarding the list. Keep it up. Though you are basing your list too much on tourney results, which may be a result of people, especially if you can name said people that have had the most influence on the list itself. Chozen, EL, ever really found anything they've said to be a little biased? I sure have and I don't even post often. Think about it yourself first, not so much the list, but how you're putting it together. The right portions from the sources of input are just as important as the input itself and the portions of that given input. That's your job inevitably (and you've done well) so don't get to influenced yourself. You'll probably get much better at understanding as this goes on as well.
You realize you just disagreed with yourself by disagreeing with me when there was nothing to disagree with? lol
First off, I said MANY not ANY.
Secondly, I mentioned Pika and you just backed what I said up there. This also applies to MANY other characters. NOT Snake etc, like you said. That's obvious lol
Thirdly, this isn't the first time you've completely misread a post is it? lol
both
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Kiwi, I edited my post to make it clearer.
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
Forgot to comment on this.
Quote -
Ike is not the worst character in the game when he has had tournament sucess that other characters have not attained and he does not have the worst match-ups in the game either.
5 tiers would not accurately describe the current metagame as there is a group of characters that are slightly under snake and MK in tournaments and match-ups(i.e. high tier G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,Falco) and another group under the "high" tier who seperate them selves from the average but do not have the tournies placings or the match-ups that are equal to the "high" tier, and so this group above the middle and below the high is the upper tier.
Again, the tourney results I would completely discredit if they had any date before late May.
He might not have the worst match ups or worst number of bad match ups but he has close to that. He also has very close, if not the worst number of good match ups and worst good match ups. Everything else is almost an up hill battle for him even if it's close to even or one of his stronger match ups.
Here's the cycle, this may mean a little more than simple discussion
EARLY DEMO DAYS
:nobody really knows anyones moves but they know spacing, projectiles and sheild grabbing. They get a couple quick attacks and spam repetitive moves and run around trying to get the few effective things off that they've found.
- "Ike is horribly slow. There is no way that he'll get anywhere in competitive play because he can't hit anything, but he hits hard. When people know his moves, he'll be avoided so easily!"
Reason, nobody knows his attacks at all. Nothing works because he's slow and laggy so spacing poorly which is easier with slow attacks, results in easily punished.
LATE DEMO DAYS
eople have more time to figure out the moves and tricks. Now, each player gets slightly accustumed to a few characters and their tricks. Particularly spacing, projectiles and now recovering, chaining attacks and finishing.
"Ike is over powered. He has huge range and is too fast for how strong he is. His recovery is good and he kills at crazy low % with his fsmash and usmash and you can't get to him!"
The Ike users learn what he can do, not many others know and fall to his attacks as they try to space, chain and chase into tilts or smashes after different lags and speeds. Nobody else really has enough time to have their lack of spacing fall into place with other things in their game.
GAME RECENTLY RELEASED
:Ike is still considered good. Marth, Wolf, G&W, they are all huge spacers and immidiately dominate with big attacks that cover a lot of area and with a bit of time become safe to use and apply with effectiveness.
"Ike is not over powered but he's going to be one of the best because he kills so fast when everyone lives forever and recovering doesn't matter, when he hits you, you die"
The games simple traits like spacing and timing become familliar and only those who play Ike enough really understand him but still struggle with his big attacks. There are no tricks and spammed attacks with no knowledge of what kills makes him even "better"
GAME AFTER DEVELOPING
:Ike isn't too good, everywhere from high to low is good enough. He has some good fast attacks that keep him in the game and he can make a good safe wall of spacing to deal big attacks and even get through spammers with his decent mobility for a slow character.
This is now. Ike isn't godly, or crap. The game has grown a bit and what can be done with Ikes range and power has been worked with a lot. This is all Ike has to work with and it has taken him this far and will further. But where does he go from here?
GAME ONCE GROWN
Ike doesn't have anywhere to grow. His attacks are very slow, his defensive game is almost non-existent and he's easily gimped and punished for almost everything. His problem isn't dealing damage, getting around, chasing, chaining or anything like that. It's really finishing.
He is very single tracked. From every angle and every situation, he only has so many options. If he short hops towards someone, he puts himself in a spot where he can only do so much and some of the options can punish him. Everything he does is potentially bad. What happens when that potential is fully abused, controlled, laid out and exploited? Every time he tries a fair, quick strike, ftilt, smash, dtilt, UpB, B, counter, uair, dair...he can potentially get fsmashed. When he uses one of those attacks, or even just moves, he is stuck in either the lag of the move, or within the limitations of that movement, thus disabling himself from a number of maneuvers which then comes into play when the play is read by the opponent who can simply bait or dodge or avoid the few hot spots and go from there. Even getting hit isn't so bad because his attacks deal so little damage. If they don't kill you, they're near useless. And everything that hits leads to phase one where it's a stand off again and Ike has to be the one to not make the mistake while he waits for the faster opponent to react or make the first move and hope his opponent reacts wrong. And every time that hit misses and they don't go back to phase one, Ike will be punished with either a smash for a KO, a chain of attacks cause by Ikes lack of defence or other situations which all in turn lead back to either a bad position for Ike, or square one which Ike can play "semi"safe from again.
Sure, QS>jab, QS>utilt, jab>grab, grab>DA, His other fast attacks, bair, if he's facing away in the air, that's the only thing he can do. He disables himself. You think people will jump into that when Ike can't do anything else but dodge? Dodge it, Ike lags, punished. QS, roll into it and you don't get hit but he attacks, punished. Any dodged attacks > punished. Particularly his finishers, all of them but I guess bair. But he better connect. Again it goes to that "equal player vs equal player" thing and mindgames are the only reason that will ever connect, with that equal player thing in play, the player equal ont fall for it. That goes for all of his attacks. And he can't gimp and has no offstage game. Maybe UpB spiking for fun lol
He is the worst and has been from day one. I honestly cannot see a reason why anything would turn out otherwise and until there is, which I can't believe that I've overlooked anything, then I'll main his useless self instead of my beloved Random. Only for ONE doubles tourney though, just like I mained Bowser for doubles the last couple times, it's fun
That's my take on Ike.
Quote -
Ike is not the worst character in the game when he has had tournament sucess that other characters have not attained and he does not have the worst match-ups in the game either.
5 tiers would not accurately describe the current metagame as there is a group of characters that are slightly under snake and MK in tournaments and match-ups(i.e. high tier G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,Falco) and another group under the "high" tier who seperate them selves from the average but do not have the tournies placings or the match-ups that are equal to the "high" tier, and so this group above the middle and below the high is the upper tier.
Again, the tourney results I would completely discredit if they had any date before late May.
He might not have the worst match ups or worst number of bad match ups but he has close to that. He also has very close, if not the worst number of good match ups and worst good match ups. Everything else is almost an up hill battle for him even if it's close to even or one of his stronger match ups.
Here's the cycle, this may mean a little more than simple discussion
EARLY DEMO DAYS
:nobody really knows anyones moves but they know spacing, projectiles and sheild grabbing. They get a couple quick attacks and spam repetitive moves and run around trying to get the few effective things off that they've found.
- "Ike is horribly slow. There is no way that he'll get anywhere in competitive play because he can't hit anything, but he hits hard. When people know his moves, he'll be avoided so easily!"
Reason, nobody knows his attacks at all. Nothing works because he's slow and laggy so spacing poorly which is easier with slow attacks, results in easily punished.
LATE DEMO DAYS
eople have more time to figure out the moves and tricks. Now, each player gets slightly accustumed to a few characters and their tricks. Particularly spacing, projectiles and now recovering, chaining attacks and finishing."Ike is over powered. He has huge range and is too fast for how strong he is. His recovery is good and he kills at crazy low % with his fsmash and usmash and you can't get to him!"
The Ike users learn what he can do, not many others know and fall to his attacks as they try to space, chain and chase into tilts or smashes after different lags and speeds. Nobody else really has enough time to have their lack of spacing fall into place with other things in their game.
GAME RECENTLY RELEASED
:Ike is still considered good. Marth, Wolf, G&W, they are all huge spacers and immidiately dominate with big attacks that cover a lot of area and with a bit of time become safe to use and apply with effectiveness.
"Ike is not over powered but he's going to be one of the best because he kills so fast when everyone lives forever and recovering doesn't matter, when he hits you, you die"
The games simple traits like spacing and timing become familliar and only those who play Ike enough really understand him but still struggle with his big attacks. There are no tricks and spammed attacks with no knowledge of what kills makes him even "better"
GAME AFTER DEVELOPING
:Ike isn't too good, everywhere from high to low is good enough. He has some good fast attacks that keep him in the game and he can make a good safe wall of spacing to deal big attacks and even get through spammers with his decent mobility for a slow character.
This is now. Ike isn't godly, or crap. The game has grown a bit and what can be done with Ikes range and power has been worked with a lot. This is all Ike has to work with and it has taken him this far and will further. But where does he go from here?
GAME ONCE GROWN
Ike doesn't have anywhere to grow. His attacks are very slow, his defensive game is almost non-existent and he's easily gimped and punished for almost everything. His problem isn't dealing damage, getting around, chasing, chaining or anything like that. It's really finishing.
He is very single tracked. From every angle and every situation, he only has so many options. If he short hops towards someone, he puts himself in a spot where he can only do so much and some of the options can punish him. Everything he does is potentially bad. What happens when that potential is fully abused, controlled, laid out and exploited? Every time he tries a fair, quick strike, ftilt, smash, dtilt, UpB, B, counter, uair, dair...he can potentially get fsmashed. When he uses one of those attacks, or even just moves, he is stuck in either the lag of the move, or within the limitations of that movement, thus disabling himself from a number of maneuvers which then comes into play when the play is read by the opponent who can simply bait or dodge or avoid the few hot spots and go from there. Even getting hit isn't so bad because his attacks deal so little damage. If they don't kill you, they're near useless. And everything that hits leads to phase one where it's a stand off again and Ike has to be the one to not make the mistake while he waits for the faster opponent to react or make the first move and hope his opponent reacts wrong. And every time that hit misses and they don't go back to phase one, Ike will be punished with either a smash for a KO, a chain of attacks cause by Ikes lack of defence or other situations which all in turn lead back to either a bad position for Ike, or square one which Ike can play "semi"safe from again.
Sure, QS>jab, QS>utilt, jab>grab, grab>DA, His other fast attacks, bair, if he's facing away in the air, that's the only thing he can do. He disables himself. You think people will jump into that when Ike can't do anything else but dodge? Dodge it, Ike lags, punished. QS, roll into it and you don't get hit but he attacks, punished. Any dodged attacks > punished. Particularly his finishers, all of them but I guess bair. But he better connect. Again it goes to that "equal player vs equal player" thing and mindgames are the only reason that will ever connect, with that equal player thing in play, the player equal ont fall for it. That goes for all of his attacks. And he can't gimp and has no offstage game. Maybe UpB spiking for fun lol
He is the worst and has been from day one. I honestly cannot see a reason why anything would turn out otherwise and until there is, which I can't believe that I've overlooked anything, then I'll main his useless self instead of my beloved Random. Only for ONE doubles tourney though, just like I mained Bowser for doubles the last couple times, it's fun
That's my take on Ike.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
You are silly.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
QFT. Ike's not bad.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 18, 2008
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- 1,638
Neither is Mario...
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
You're right, Ike is really bad? o.O
How is this going anywhere but Ike being worse and worse? lol ;b
How is this going anywhere but Ike being worse and worse? lol ;b
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
You are correct, sir. No matter how many people try to talk some sense into you, you continue going on with your silliness.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
Dynamism, Ness has hard counters beacuse of the infinite grab that chairzard and marth posess, giving those to a great advantage over ness. G&W also proves to be a hard counter beacuse of oil panic and an assortment of techniques that G&W can do to ness that easily rack up damage(i.e. aerial spam,smashes,grab game). Since ness can be infinitely grabbed by charizard when lucas cannot, there is a hard counter on ness that dosent apply to lucas.
Tournament results are the biggest part of placing a character on a tier list. Then match-ups and then potencial come into play. If a character is not placing well that is going to put them dramtically down on the tier list,as shown with ness. Ness has not placed well and his match-ups are not good with hard counters and overall more disadvatages than advantages against most of the characters in brawl. Lucas however has placed average in tournaments and his match-ups reinforce the statement that lucas is a middle tier character when he has advantages over characters that ness has a hard time with and less hard counters. Also lucas is the best wavebouncer in the game, giving him a great defensive strategy. You are just saying that ness has more potencial when you are not backing it up with evidence, lucas on the other hand has a handful of AT's(zap jump gives him a great recovery) that lead to many possiblities(still lucas is a middle tier character)
Give me evidence that ness is better than lucas and that ness is high tier beacuse the tournament placings, the match-ups, the AT's and the knowledgebale people state that lucas is having more sucess than ness and that ness is a low tier character.
As for EL and Ch0zen being biased, they actually are common players in tournaments and know much more than the average smashboardian about this game. Acknowledging their intellect about this game will help the accuracy of the production of a tier list.
Luigi again is a character who has not placed well and has sub par match-ups. Right now he can be accuratly put into the low tier but may change in the future in his potencial is found.
As for Ike, his wins keep him in the low tier and not the bottom, he may go down as the metagame evolves, but right now I am making an accurate tier list of the current metagame using constructive critism,ankoku's tournament placings,match-ups threads, knowledgebale people suggestions, combo videos(showing character potencial) and AT's that most people agree on and feel that it is the best way of making a tier list, and so Ike at this stage in competitive brawl is in the low tier.
here is my tier list once again, please help by commenting on any placement that should be reconsidered.
@emblem lord: lol he is being "silly"
If anyone disagrees with my middle/upper tiers please feel free to comment as I make this list more accurate. I will start my low/bottom tier if no one disagrees with my middle tier.
Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.
The four best tiers of brawl:
Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK
High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco
Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
TL
Pit
Olimar
Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS
Others could be added to the middle tier (i.e , Sonic, Luigi ,Peach, sheik,Ike ,mario, ness, samus)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to low beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. I am struggling with my middle tier, please help by commenting on a character's placing if it should be reconsidered
(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings,combo videos for character potencial, constructive critizism,AT's and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
Tournament results are the biggest part of placing a character on a tier list. Then match-ups and then potencial come into play. If a character is not placing well that is going to put them dramtically down on the tier list,as shown with ness. Ness has not placed well and his match-ups are not good with hard counters and overall more disadvatages than advantages against most of the characters in brawl. Lucas however has placed average in tournaments and his match-ups reinforce the statement that lucas is a middle tier character when he has advantages over characters that ness has a hard time with and less hard counters. Also lucas is the best wavebouncer in the game, giving him a great defensive strategy. You are just saying that ness has more potencial when you are not backing it up with evidence, lucas on the other hand has a handful of AT's(zap jump gives him a great recovery) that lead to many possiblities(still lucas is a middle tier character)
Give me evidence that ness is better than lucas and that ness is high tier beacuse the tournament placings, the match-ups, the AT's and the knowledgebale people state that lucas is having more sucess than ness and that ness is a low tier character.
As for EL and Ch0zen being biased, they actually are common players in tournaments and know much more than the average smashboardian about this game. Acknowledging their intellect about this game will help the accuracy of the production of a tier list.
Luigi again is a character who has not placed well and has sub par match-ups. Right now he can be accuratly put into the low tier but may change in the future in his potencial is found.
As for Ike, his wins keep him in the low tier and not the bottom, he may go down as the metagame evolves, but right now I am making an accurate tier list of the current metagame using constructive critism,ankoku's tournament placings,match-ups threads, knowledgebale people suggestions, combo videos(showing character potencial) and AT's that most people agree on and feel that it is the best way of making a tier list, and so Ike at this stage in competitive brawl is in the low tier.
here is my tier list once again, please help by commenting on any placement that should be reconsidered.
@emblem lord: lol he is being "silly"
If anyone disagrees with my middle/upper tiers please feel free to comment as I make this list more accurate. I will start my low/bottom tier if no one disagrees with my middle tier.
Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.
The four best tiers of brawl:
Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK
High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco
Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
TL
Pit
Olimar
Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS
Others could be added to the middle tier (i.e , Sonic, Luigi ,Peach, sheik,Ike ,mario, ness, samus)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to low beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. I am struggling with my middle tier, please help by commenting on a character's placing if it should be reconsidered
(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings,combo videos for character potencial, constructive critizism,AT's and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
old king coal
Smash Journeyman
tournament results should not have much of an impact on the tier list in this early stage...but deep down we all know that it will end up that way
in melee fox was never top tier at the start because he was harder to "master" than the other characters. he had more potencial, it just wasn't realised yet. hopefully it will end up the same thing
I honestly think that a tier list shouln't be released anytime soon. i think that it will only slow down characters progress
in melee fox was never top tier at the start because he was harder to "master" than the other characters. he had more potencial, it just wasn't realised yet. hopefully it will end up the same thing
I honestly think that a tier list shouln't be released anytime soon. i think that it will only slow down characters progress
-Frozen-
Smash Cadet
I dont think it matters too much. After all, the tier list is constantly evolving as Brawl continues to grow as a competitive game.
I think these early tiers are just to give people an Idea of the characters who have so far shown the most potential in tournaments, but nothing here is set in stone.
The tier lists are always changing depending on character performance, and TBH, i dont even think Brawl has really been around long enough anyways to have a concrete tier list as of now.
Browny
Smash Hater
on second thought, wolf should go down. only 3 wins, hasnt had any upwards movement for a long period of time and i think people are finally catching on to his fsmash and his recovery is still as bad as ever.
and ZSS over sonic, mario and luigi looks off, but eh its all subjective at the moment
and ZSS over sonic, mario and luigi looks off, but eh its all subjective at the moment
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wow, didn't I say this like 3 pages ago? but no-one listened cuz wolf iz da bom? lol
Edit: I think Pit should be placed just above TL. He's been doing better than TL in tourneys lately and this past week, his ATs have been coming in about 1 a day, seriously, no joke. It's rough.(but I use pit, so it's all good
) Here's a list of what we've discovered so far V. His matchups are great and doesn't have many bad matchups. All of his bad ones are against the best characters. UndrDog is currently(I think) creating a thread that talks about each AT and it's possibilities. Wing dashing is very similiar to wavedashing. Anyways, here's the thread listing the ATs that have been discovered thus far:http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174821
Browny
Smash Hater
lol, i think if every other characters boards were that lenient on what classifies as an AT or not, thered be literally hundreds in total
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
I have an idea.
Let's talk about my second-favorite Nintendo character.
Let's talk about Mario.
Now, I've seen Mario flip-flop on the tier list more than any other fighter with the possible exception of Ike and Sonic, but the bottom line is that he's low-mid at the highest, right?
Let's talk about my second-favorite Nintendo character.
Let's talk about Mario.
Now, I've seen Mario flip-flop on the tier list more than any other fighter with the possible exception of Ike and Sonic, but the bottom line is that he's low-mid at the highest, right?
ikemaster
Smash Rookie
ike, marth, and maybe c. falcon have a good chance at being top teirs. because ike is fast and very strong. marth and decent power and good speed and very good air combos and c. falcon has good smashes excellent speed and the falcon punch is very deadly
Grandeza
Smash Master
/sarcasm? ?
Theftz22
Smash Lord
ROFL!!! can't stop!!!
massimo009
Smash Cadet
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are you serious ikemaster???
old king coal
Smash Journeyman
the tier is a lie
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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I say Mid tier. A lot of people also put Mario below Bowser, but he's significantly better than Bowser. Even in Brawl. I won't go too in depth about that, but he's better because he doesn't get comboed to death, doesn't get camped easily, and doesn't get gimped nearly as much.
So Mario's advantages?
1. A projectile that has great mobility and good potential setups. If you aim them right for people's heads, they can't really jab cancel them anyway.
2. Fairly good at juggling, due to extremely low lag aerials which do good damage
3. Overall very, very good at ledgeguarding due to the properties of Cape and FLUDD, easily the best reason why Mario is higher than low tier.
4. Cape makes camping Mario fairly difficult, and is still a very versatile attack in other ways.
5. Smashes are very fast, easy to keep undiminished, and have decent KO power.
6. Boss uses him.
Mario's disadvantages
1. range. Mainly grab range.
2. Doesn't have too many kill moves outside of Smashes (maybe get them with an undiminished B-air, N-air, or U-air? Nah). B-throw doesn't kill as well as it used to.
3. Recovery is average, thus can be gimped in some situations whereas better recoveries don't usually get gimped.
Also, Luigi really isn't that much better than Mario. He has bad mobility unless he's using the Tornado. He's by far much easier to camp, and his ledgeguarding is mediocre.
Tournament results play an imperative part in deciding where characters should be placed on a tier list. They show how characters can be used in competitive gameplay. If not, certain characters that seem much better on paper than they really are such as ic and tl would be way higher than they deserve to be.
The highlighted font in your quotes blinds me sirsorry but I post crap in posts lol
I like what you're doing regarding the list. Keep it up. Though you are basing your list too much on tourney results, which may be a result of people, especially if you can name said people that have had the most influence on the list itself. Chozen, EL, ever really found anything they've said to be a little biased? I sure have and I don't even post often. Think about it yourself first, not so much the list, but how you're putting it together. The right portions from the sources of input are just as important as the input itself and the portions of that given input. That's your job inevitably (and you've done well) so don't get to influenced yourself. You'll probably get much better at understanding as this goes on as well.
You realize you just disagreed with yourself by disagreeing with me when there was nothing to disagree with? lol
First off, I said MANY not ANY.
Secondly, I mentioned Pika and you just backed what I said up there. This also applies to MANY other characters. NOT Snake etc, like you said. That's obvious lol
Thirdly, this isn't the first time you've completely misread a post is it? lol
both
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
Yeah sorry, I crap in posts sometimes lol
And why does someone have my Avatar?!
If Ness is low because of the invinite grab despite having great match ups against most of the cast, then that's pretty faulty right there. Yes he has good match ups, either give me a list of which ones are "bad" or don't say it because it's wrong or someone doesn't know what they're doing haha. And that's EXACTLY what I said, G&W and Marth > Ness. Thanks for backing me up there.
Tourney results in the last week should take more credit than tourney results in the first week. That's all I'm saying. Also, track a character, see where they place, how many there are etc, that's the only way to really figure it out at this point
Common players are still biased, don't know where you're getting the idea they're not. And it's no big deal. Just don't be influenced too much by a few people.
I'll be silly and say that Ike sucks, I'm fine with that lol
Luigi is much better than low tier. Countering Snake, MK and DK should count for something at least. ;]
Firstly, to address your ness argument, http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979. Ness matches up poorly against just about everyone.
GW counters ness extremely well. Ness has no response to his bair so GW has a great approach on him. Secondly, GW can bucket all of Ness' projectiles cutting down that aspect of his game. On top of that GW gimps ness' recovery very easily with his bucket. Ness is at a great disadvantage against Marth due to the infinte as well as how easilly he is ko'd by his fsmash. Against DK, ness is at a disadvantage as well. Firstly because of Dk's range. Dk's tilts as well as grab are a serious problem for ness. Its almost imposible to get inside on him. Also Its very difficult for Ness to ko Dk at less than about 160 or 170 percent. Ness is also at a disadvantage against metaknight. Ness cannot deal with Mk's tilts or quick grabs. Also he is gimped fairly easilly by Mk. Ness is at a disadvantage against snake as well. snake is just too powerful for ness and too heavy. It is difficult for ness to get kills at under like 175 percent and he is ko'd by snake at low percents. On top of that, ness has very little if not almost no tournament representation. When taking his matchups as well as his tournament showings into account it is very difficult to put him any higher than low tier or the very bottom of mid
Browny
Smash Hater
dont forget ness' bthrow. no one survives that at 130%, he could grab and get a few pummels off to begin the finisher as low as 120%. #1 most relaible kill move in the game imo, attempting to DI only makes it worse
lol who's backthrow are you talking about?
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Erm, Ness'. It says it right there. Ness B Throw has the most KO potential for a throw in the game, except Oli's BLue B Throw, but that thing is just broken.
I know this may seem biased, as it is coming from a person who plays the character, but no way should Jigglypuff be lowest tier. Low tier/Mid tier IMO,and here's why. Yes Jiggs has been seriously nerfed. It's harder to land rest combos, and when you do, alot of times they don't die. But the main components of jigglypuff still the same. She can still combo. And it's very easy to WoP heavy set characters off the stage like Donkey Kong, Bowser, Ike ect.
Her bair has great range, giving her the opportunity to poke at shields and land hits and not get shield grabbed. Her recovery is one of the best, if not the best recovery in the game. Pound is still useful for setting up combos. Her rollout has improved, and is great for punishing characters who struggle in sweet spotting the edge. She also does well on stages that she can come under the floors. I understand that she hasn't been placing high in tournies of late, but how many people are honestly playing her?
I don't expect her to get anything higher than mid tier, but there is no way you can tell me straight to my face that she is one of the worst.
Her bair has great range, giving her the opportunity to poke at shields and land hits and not get shield grabbed. Her recovery is one of the best, if not the best recovery in the game. Pound is still useful for setting up combos. Her rollout has improved, and is great for punishing characters who struggle in sweet spotting the edge. She also does well on stages that she can come under the floors. I understand that she hasn't been placing high in tournies of late, but how many people are honestly playing her?
I don't expect her to get anything higher than mid tier, but there is no way you can tell me straight to my face that she is one of the worst.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
I will change TL position to under pit beacuse Pit has more tournament sucess and very,very slightly worse match-ups, also many of Pit AT's come into play when we place him above TL(wingdashing is great), so I strongly follow the arguement that pit should be above TL.wow, didn't I say this like 3 pages ago? but no-one listened cuz wolf iz da bom? lol
Edit: I think Pit should be placed just above TL. He's been doing better than TL in tourneys lately and this past week, his ATs have been coming in about 1 a day, seriously, no joke. It's rough.(but I use pit, so it's all good
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174821
@Dynanism have you seen Ness's match-ups? There overall worse than average with 3 hard counters(charizard(another hard counter to ness) and marth by infinite grab and G&W's bucket gimp's ness' recovery)
And what are you talking about that luigi counters MK,Snake,and DK? Thats a completly false statement as I looked at all there match-up threads? You seem to have no real evidence when proving your opinions, which won help win arguements.
Also I am evaluating the current metagame, I take all the information that I can gather and evaulte their proformance at this stage in competitive brawl.
And for EL and Ch0zen there not common smashers, they commonly go to tournaments and play with the best in their reigion and know much more about smash than the average person(CH0zen plays with one of the best mario's in brawl,BOSS, and Emblem lord was once leader, and now a major part of TSA, a huge smash crew, famous throughout the nation.
Here is my updated list if anyone would like to help by giving evidence of change of placement.
If anyone disagrees with my middle/upper tiers please feel free to comment as I make this list more accurate. I will start my low/bottom tier if no one disagrees with my middle tier.
Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.
The four best tiers of brawl:
Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK
High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco
Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
Pit
TL
Olimar
Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS
Others could be added to the middle tier (i.e , Sonic, Luigi ,Peach, sheik,Ike ,mario, ness, samus)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to low beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. I am struggling with my middle tier, please help by commenting on a character's placing if it should be reconsidered
(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings,combo videos for character potencial, constructive critizism,AT's and the matchup threads on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
People are very rude on this thread... I just noticed...
That's too bad since I post here a lot.
I think it's prolly because everybody supports a different character. That and a lot of noobs come here first.
Plus we're on the internet, so we don't have to worry about getting punched.
Anyway...
@ lonejedi: The problem with Jiggz is relativity.
WoP works just as well as in Melee, it's true. But lots of other characters can WoP just as effectively, so it's not as impressive anymore. Plus, now that every character has a great recovery as compared to Melee, Jiggz will have to push them all the way to the blast lines in order to kill them. Usually they'll spawn quickly enough to get to the edge again before Jiggz does, and then they're in a perfect place to edgeguard. That's bad, because a lot of Jiggz' jumps are already going to be gone.
Bair has great range, it's true. But the problem is, Jiggz can be outranged on the rest of her attacks.
Not that many characters have recoveries that don't auto-sweetspot in Brawl, and the increase in tethers only makes it harder for Jiggz to land the rollout. Add to that the fact that a few characters can glide or recover right past a spinning Jiggz, and it isn't as useful as it seems.
So yeah, Jigglypuff's weaknesses lie in the fact that everyone else can do what she does to an extent. As such, her strengths are nerfed and her weaknesses are buffed. It's all relative.
Just my two cents.
That's too bad since I post here a lot.
I think it's prolly because everybody supports a different character. That and a lot of noobs come here first.
Plus we're on the internet, so we don't have to worry about getting punched.
Anyway...
@ lonejedi: The problem with Jiggz is relativity.
WoP works just as well as in Melee, it's true. But lots of other characters can WoP just as effectively, so it's not as impressive anymore. Plus, now that every character has a great recovery as compared to Melee, Jiggz will have to push them all the way to the blast lines in order to kill them. Usually they'll spawn quickly enough to get to the edge again before Jiggz does, and then they're in a perfect place to edgeguard. That's bad, because a lot of Jiggz' jumps are already going to be gone.
Bair has great range, it's true. But the problem is, Jiggz can be outranged on the rest of her attacks.
Not that many characters have recoveries that don't auto-sweetspot in Brawl, and the increase in tethers only makes it harder for Jiggz to land the rollout. Add to that the fact that a few characters can glide or recover right past a spinning Jiggz, and it isn't as useful as it seems.
So yeah, Jigglypuff's weaknesses lie in the fact that everyone else can do what she does to an extent. As such, her strengths are nerfed and her weaknesses are buffed. It's all relative.
Just my two cents.
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