Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Blistering Speed]

Agreed, in decided your characters tier you should compare your character to the others and decide honestly which of them is your character better then. Jiggs just has too many bad matchups

 

[chckn]

hizzlum have you started working on low/bottom tier yet or are you gonnna hold off on that?

 

[DanGR]

he's waiting until we can all agree on the other tiers before moving on.

 

[hizzlum]

hizzlum have you started working on low/bottom tier yet or are you gonnna hold off on that?

If no one disagrees with my middle tier I will post my "rough draft" of the low tier later today for people to comment on character placing so I have another accurate tier in my list. Thanks for the support, I will start soon if no one disagrees with my middle/upper tier beacuse most of smashboards agrees on the top/high tier
as snake and MK then G&W,DDD, Marth, ROB,Falco.
@DanGR: lol you read my mind.

 

[chckn]

If no one disagrees with my middle tier I will post my "rough draft" of the low tier later today for people to comment on character placing so I have another accurate tier in my list. Thanks for the support, I will start soon if no one disagrees with my middle/upper tier beacuse most of smashboards agrees on the top/high tier
as snake and MK then G&W,DDD, Marth, ROB,Falco.
@DanGR: lol you read my mind.

lol you will always have people disagreeing with whatever you put as middle/upper tier but thats just how it is. With that said, everything looks very sollid to me and I'm looking forward to you posting the rest of the list later today.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You realize you just disagreed with yourself by disagreeing with me when there was nothing to disagree with? lol

First off, I said MANY not ANY.

Secondly, I mentioned Pika and you just backed what I said up there. This also applies to MANY other characters. NOT Snake etc, like you said. That's obvious lol

Thirdly, this isn't the first time you've completely misread a post is it? lol

*facepalm*

1. My post was an explication. I was adding to what I had said earlier in regardes to your post.

2. Why would you even mention pika if you understood what I was saying earlier? Hence my response.

3.I wouldn't misread what you posted if you had been clear earlier.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ ShadowLink: What's an explication? :D

 

[ShadowLink84]

Same thing as explaining. To clarify in other words.

It's just sexier than explain IMO.

 

[chckn]

*facepalm*

1. My post was an explication. I was adding to what I had said earlier in regardes to your post.

2. Why would you even mention pika if you understood what I was saying earlier? Hence my response.

3.I wouldn't misread what you posted if you had been clear earlier.

Shadowlink give it up, there is obviously no reasoning with this silly man

 

[ShadowLink84]

BUT REASONING IS AWESOME! IT RUNS THROUGH YOUR DECK REALLY FAST AND GETS DMOC ON THE FIELD!

Oh wait this isn't yu-gi-oh <.<

That game can be fun at times.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Argh.
Respect level goes
l
l
l
l
V For ShadowLink. But that's life, eh?

 

[chckn]

and then you use DMOC's broken *** effect to get back swords and ****!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Argh.
Respect level goes
l
l
l
l
V For ShadowLink. But that's life, eh?

Meh

I play it when im bored and have nothing to do.
I am waiting for Final Fantasy Tactics A2 to come out. ^_^

you are supposed to use DMOC to get back premature burial or monster reborn then special summon disk commander to draw two cards then sacrifice disk commander for some other monster with an effect such as Jinzo then attack for game.

 

[lonejedi]

People are very rude on this thread... I just noticed...
That's too bad since I post here a lot.
I think it's prolly because everybody supports a different character. That and a lot of noobs come here first.
Plus we're on the internet, so we don't have to worry about getting punched.
Anyway...

@ lonejedi: The problem with Jiggz is relativity.
WoP works just as well as in Melee, it's true. But lots of other characters can WoP just as effectively, so it's not as impressive anymore. Plus, now that every character has a great recovery as compared to Melee, Jiggz will have to push them all the way to the blast lines in order to kill them. Usually they'll spawn quickly enough to get to the edge again before Jiggz does, and then they're in a perfect place to edgeguard. That's bad, because a lot of Jiggz' jumps are already going to be gone.
Bair has great range, it's true. But the problem is, Jiggz can be outranged on the rest of her attacks.
Not that many characters have recoveries that don't auto-sweetspot in Brawl, and the increase in tethers only makes it harder for Jiggz to land the rollout. Add to that the fact that a few characters can glide or recover right past a spinning Jiggz, and it isn't as useful as it seems.
So yeah, Jigglypuff's weaknesses lie in the fact that everyone else can do what she does to an extent. As such, her strengths are nerfed and her weaknesses are buffed. It's all relative.

Just my two cents.

Actually there are alot of characters that she can keep of the edge. Not everyone in this game has super recovery. Even theough recovery has improved for most characters, they aren't anywhere close to jiggs. The only ones i can think of that are very goo at recovering are MK, Snake, kirby, TL, Pit as those with amazing recovery. Jiggs can effectively edge gaurd alot of characters because most recoveries in brawl are pretty predictable, and as for tether recovery, that only helps jiggs. Tether recovers very easy to edge guard, you grab the edge, and they are done.

Also, don't forget jiggs has a decent grab range, and a good arial kill move in her fair. Im not trying to argue that jiggs is really good, I just don't think she's low low tier. I would say the bottom of Mid Tier. And now with the improved DIing, she last longer than most characters since she has a great recovery.

 

[sweener]

Not true, DK has risen in tier lists because he is a good character to use against MK and Snake.
Not only that I mentioned several other matchups to show that Sonic's matchups aren't as bad as people may think.



.

I think you miss understood what i meant. I did not deny DK was good because he had those good match ups I agree with that. But saying another character is good because he can beat DK who beats MK and Snake was not a good way to put it. In my opinion unless he directly beats them then it should not be nessarily put that way.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Actually there are alot of characters that she can keep of the edge. Not everyone in this game has super recovery. Even theough recovery has improved for most characters, they aren't anywhere close to jiggs. The only ones i can think of that are very goo at recovering are MK, Snake, kirby, TL, Pit as those with amazing recovery. Jiggs can effectively edge gaurd alot of characters because most recoveries in brawl are pretty predictable, and as for tether recovery, that only helps jiggs. Tether recovers very easy to edge guard, you grab the edge, and they are done.

Also, don't forget jiggs has a decent grab range, and a good arial kill move in her fair. Im not trying to argue that jiggs is really good, I just don't think she's low low tier. I would say the bottom of Mid Tier. And now with the improved DIing, she last longer than most characters since she has a great recovery.

Well, let me think of characters whose recoveries might be punishable.
Boozer, Cpt. Falcon, G-Dub (although he has enough priority to cancel out the rollout), Ganon, Ike, Link, Mario (though he can cape it), Ness, Wolf, Yoshi.
Of those ten characters, Wolf is the only one higher than lower mid tier. So while Jiggz may be able to edgeguard those characters, she can't do much against the higher tiers in terms of rollout.
Tethers are easier to edgeguard, yes, but that's not really a Jiggz-specific strategy.
DI may help Jiggz survive but she really does get hit hard, since she's so light. It doesn't seem like her great recovery would help much in terms of her lightness. It is even worse than Kirby's recovery-lightweight ratio.
Low-mid seems to be the compensation spot for a LOT of characters, though. Mario wants to be there, Sheik wants to be there, Ness wants to be there, Sonic wants to be there, Yoshi wants to be there... it's a lot of stiff competition, and I'm not sure Jiggz can make it past all of them.

 

[chckn]

Well, let me think of characters whose recoveries might be punishable.
Boozer, Cpt. Falcon, G-Dub (although he has enough priority to cancel out the rollout), Ganon, Ike, Link, Mario (though he can cape it), Ness, Wolf, Yoshi.
Of those ten characters, Wolf is the only one higher than lower mid tier. So while Jiggz may be able to edgeguard those characters, she can't do much against the higher tiers in terms of rollout.
Tethers are easier to edgeguard, yes, but that's not really a Jiggz-specific strategy.
DI may help Jiggz survive but she really does get hit hard, since she's so light. It doesn't seem like her great recovery would help much in terms of her lightness. It is even worse than Kirby's recovery-lightweight ratio.
Low-mid seems to be the compensation spot for a LOT of characters, though. Mario wants to be there, Sheik wants to be there, Ness wants to be there, Sonic wants to be there, Yoshi wants to be there... it's a lot of stiff competition, and I'm not sure Jiggz can make it past all of them.

agreed, but where would you place her then, low or bottom?

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ chckn: Well, I'm not an expert. But I don't know that she's proven herself enough to get past either the top of bottom or the bottom of low. It all depends on how good Jiggz players show where she can be.

 

[chckn]

true, and the problem is that there really hasnt been any representation for her at tourneys for her to be placed even at bottom, I'm curious to see where Hizzlum puts her in comparison to characters like cf, but i can easilly see her being either worst or second worst

 

[Kiwikomix]

Another problem with Jiggz is that she belongs in the "gray area" of main choices. Falcon actually has become fairly popular just because everyone says that he is the worst, and everyone else wants to prove that wrong. Yoshi has become somewhat popular because he currently resides in last place of tourney results, and some people want to show that he's still a good character. Jiggz is just barely not one of the worst tier characters and is just barely not one of the worst tourney characters, so no one pays attention. Add that to the fact that she isn't a popular character to begin with, and you've got one of the least popular characters in the game. This will hurt her tourney placement even worse. Who knows? Maybe she'll make a comeback way down the line. But for now, I'd place her above CF and maybe above Ganon. She's in the Link/Samus area.

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

I'm guessing 90% of all the people arguing that Jiggly is in fact the worst character in brawl, or at least amongst the last 3 have never seen a decent Jiggly in brawl before, let alone a good one.

Jiggly looks terrible on paper, lack of range, weight, power, priority, whatever. But any decent Jiggly should be able to manipulate her aerials, DI and rest to form at least a decent character, nothing which should even think of being the worst character in the game.

The only problem Jiggly has at this moment, and it has been said, is this:

Low-mid seems to be the compensation spot for a LOT of characters, though. Mario wants to be there, Sheik wants to be there, Ness wants to be there, Sonic wants to be there, Yoshi wants to be there... it's a lot of stiff competition, and I'm not sure Jiggz can make it past all of them.

She lacks the fanbase, simple, sonic had an insane amount of fanboys wanting him up in the tiers, and actually trying to turn him into a decent character even with his more-than-obvious flaws. Jiggly has... Mango doesn't even have Brawl, Bowyer returned to melee, King plays Marth... Yeah, nobody.
I'm pretty sure Jiggz would be high-mid or even high if she'd have at least Ike's or Ness' fanbase, because she'd be winning at least some tourneys for sure, and a lot of rest-tricks would arise.

Also, 1 last things I need to get off my chest:
"Her rest got nerfed"
Indeed it did, but this is NOT a reason to move her down all the way to the bottom. rest was why she was high-mid in melee, and probably could've been high instead of low-mid/low. it being nerfed is not a reason to move her down to bottom. And, whaddya know, the nerf you guys seem to talk about, it's not that big. We have a consistent rest-combo, dair-to-rest, and where rest used to kill at 30% when everyone lived until 90%, it now kills at 70%-80% where everyone lives until 150%... even Jiggly.

Yes, Jiggly isn't as good as Snake, MK, ROB, G&W, and so on, but nobody expects her to be, it's just that she's got obvious advantages against bigger characters, slow characters and characters with a bad air or edge-game.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[chckn]

I'm guessing 90% of all the people arguing that Jiggly is in fact the worst character in brawl, or at least amongst the last 3 have never seen a decent Jiggly in brawl before, let alone a good one.

Jiggly looks terrible on paper, lack of range, weight, power, priority, whatever. But any decent Jiggly should be able to manipulate her aerials, DI and rest to form at least a decent character, nothing which should even think of being the worst character in the game.

The only problem Jiggly has at this moment, and it has been said, is this:

She lacks the fanbase, simple, sonic had an insane amount of fanboys wanting him up in the tiers, and actually trying to turn him into a decent character even with his more-than-obvious flaws. Jiggly has... Mango doesn't even have Brawl, Bowyer returned to melee, King plays Marth... Yeah, nobody.
I'm pretty sure Jiggz would be high-mid or even high if she'd have at least Ike's or Ness' fanbase, because she'd be winning at least some tourneys for sure, and a lot of rest-tricks would arise.

Also, 1 last things I need to get off my chest:
"Her rest got nerfed"
Indeed it did, but this is NOT a reason to move her down all the way to the bottom. rest was why she was high-mid in melee, and probably could've been high instead of low-mid/low. it being nerfed is not a reason to move her down to bottom. And, whaddya know, the nerf you guys seem to talk about, it's not that big. We have a consistent rest-combo, dair-to-rest, and where rest used to kill at 30% when everyone lived until 90%, it now kills at 70%-80% where everyone lives until 150%... even Jiggly.

Yes, Jiggly isn't as good as Snake, MK, ROB, G&W, and so on, but nobody expects her to be, it's just that she's got obvious advantages against bigger characters, slow characters and characters with a bad air or edge-game.

Just my 2 cents.

post tourney vids if you have of a competitive jiggley and then i will be more convinced lol

 

[lonejedi]

Well, let me think of characters whose recoveries might be punishable.
Boozer, Cpt. Falcon, G-Dub (although he has enough priority to cancel out the rollout), Ganon, Ike, Link, Mario (though he can cape it), Ness, Wolf, Yoshi.
Of those ten characters, Wolf is the only one higher than lower mid tier. So while Jiggz may be able to edgeguard those characters, she can't do much against the higher tiers in terms of rollout.
Tethers are easier to edgeguard, yes, but that's not really a Jiggz-specific strategy.
DI may help Jiggz survive but she really does get hit hard, since she's so light. It doesn't seem like her great recovery would help much in terms of her lightness. It is even worse than Kirby's recovery-lightweight ratio.
Low-mid seems to be the compensation spot for a LOT of characters, though. Mario wants to be there, Sheik wants to be there, Ness wants to be there, Sonic wants to be there, Yoshi wants to be there... it's a lot of stiff competition, and I'm not sure Jiggz can make it past all of them.

Of the characters that you named that are fighting for a spot against jiggs, I see none of those as being for sure locks as better. Shiek's recovery is horrible, nothing near melee standards, and sheik has like 1 kill move. Shiek can rack up damage on the ground, but jiggs is a air based character, so sheik is at a disadvantage right there. Also, sheik is relatively easy to combo for jiggs.

Yoshi's recovery is so easy to gimp, he has alot of range, but again, Jiggs stays in the air most of the time and can handle yoshi. As for sonic,, predictable recovery, barely any kill moves, just an overall bad character, I can't see how many people like sonic, he's horrible.

Ness is easy to gimp, has some decent projectiles, but alot of nessplayers are going to be cautious about playing him since the new Marth glitch almost makes it impossible for ness to play.

I can't say Iknow that much about mario,.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm guessing 90% of all the people arguing that Jiggly is in fact the worst character in brawl, or at least amongst the last 3 have never seen a decent Jiggly in brawl before, let alone a good one.

I play my friends jigglypuff. His Jigglypuff is really good but the lack of prority, range, really hurt her. She really can''t set things up as easily and her WOP get nerfed due to DI and the new airdodge system. She simply can't deal with the majority of the cast.
IMO she is low tier.

The only problem Jiggly has at this moment, and it has been said, is this:

She lacks the fanbase, simple, sonic had an insane amount of fanboys wanting him up in the tiers, and actually trying to turn him into a decent character even with his more-than-obvious flaws.

You are joking right?
Fanbase?
Waot what? You just insulted every sonic main out there including myself.

Sonic does have a massive fanbase trying to make him good.
Sonic has a very high learning curve so not many people play him. This is shown by his lack of representation at tournaments.

Furthermore SOnic actually has something good for him.
Range isn't a problem due to his speed.
He can chase
he can pressure.
he can rack up damage.
He is capable of dealing with the lack of priority to some extent.
He has a good grab game.
An excellent approach game.

It isn't the fanbase. Kthxbai.

Jiggly has... Mango doesn't even have Brawl, Bowyer returned to melee, King plays Marth... Yeah, nobody.
I'm pretty sure Jiggz would be high-mid or even high if she'd have at least Ike's or Ness' fanbase, because she'd be winning at least some tourneys for sure, and a lot of rest-tricks would arise.

no she wouldn't.
Her matchups this time around are poor.
Ask azen to use jiggly and have him face King's Marth. I am betting King will win most of the time if not atll.

Also, 1 last things I need to get off my chest:
"Her rest got nerfed"
Indeed it did, but this is NOT a reason to move her down all the way to the bottom. rest was why she was high-mid in melee, and probably could've been high instead of low-mid/low. it being nerfed is not a reason to move her down to bottom. And, whaddya know, the nerf you guys seem to talk about, it's not that big. We have a consistent rest-combo, dair-to-rest, and where rest used to kill at 30% when everyone lived until 90%, it now kills at 70%-80% where everyone lives until 150%... even Jiggly.

Dair to rest?
WOMG a consistent combo.
in comparison to the many other setups she had in melee right?
As for your consistent combo it isn't consistent. I attempted it on a level 9comp and they DI'ed before I could land the rest and I got punished.

Jiggly is at best low tier material. Her matchups are worst this time around and the new brawl system hurt her like it did CF.
her WOP got nerfed, her rest was nerfed, her setups aren't as good anymore.
Her lack of priority and range tends to hurt more this game where defense is much stronger than in melee.
She really lacks the methods to get the job done.

yeah she has WOp but it is more difficult to set up and lack of hitstun and the new airdodge system can screw her up.
Very few characters she can WOP off the stage and those tend to be on the low end of the tiers.

If you really believe jiggly is competitively viable and worthy of high tier or even high mid tier, I would like to see a video of her in a large tournament similar to the one of mr 3000 and his sonic.

Of the characters that you named that are fighting for a spot against jiggs, I see none of those as being for sure locks as better. Shiek's recovery is horrible, nothing near melee standards, and sheik has like 1 kill move. Shiek can rack up damage on the ground, but jiggs is a air based character, so sheik is at a disadvantage right there. Also, sheik is relatively easy to combo for jiggs.

Sheik is faster has better priority. She has two kill moves and her F tilt combos really well.
Her recovery is better than it was in melee actually so fail on your part.

Yoshi's recovery is so easy to gimp,

No it isn't. juggernaut frames make it difficult as does the new airdodge system.

[quoteJ As for sonic,, predictable recovery, barely any kill moves, just an overall bad character, I can't see how many people like sonic, he's horrible.[/quote]
This is where I get annoyed.

Predictable recovery? Are you serious?
Spinshot to homing attack to ^B please tell me how the movement is predictable?
No wait it isn't.
Yes he hardly has any kill moves but neither does MK.
Neither does Jiggly either.
yes like MK Sonic can rack up damage and make his hits count.
Horrible indeed.

Ness is easy to gimp, has some decent projectiles, but alot of nessplayers are going to be cautious about playing him since the new Marth glitch almost makes it impossible for ness to play.

Marth glitch?
No glitch and it doesn't make him impossible to play. GG

 

[???????]

I have an idea.
Let's talk about my second-favorite Nintendo character.
Let's talk about Mario.
Now, I've seen Mario flip-flop on the tier list more than any other fighter with the possible exception of Ike and Sonic, but the bottom line is that he's low-mid at the highest, right?

No, he's mid mid at the lowest but his match-ups are outdated right now and he's hasn't seen a lot of representation in tourneys.

*Mario's match-ups are currently being revised at this time*

 

[chckn]

No, he's mid mid at the lowest but his match-ups are outdated right now and he's hasn't seen a lot of representation in tourneys.

*Mario's match-ups are currently being revised at this time*

When his matchups are revised and he starts placing higher in tournaments then he may be comsidered for mid mid, until then i see him as upper low

 

[M.K]

In my opinion for the bottom tier:

(possibly) Yoshi
Samus
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

In that order. Any thoughts? Ganondorf actually deserves Low Tier, but I put him here because the general concensus is bottom tier.

 

[chckn]

I actually agree with that except for ganon. Ganon has alot of posibilities and alot that he can do out of his grabs. I see him at the bottom of low or very top of bottom

 

[Kiwikomix]

She really can''t set things up as easily and her WOP get nerfed due to DI and the new airdodge system. She simply can't deal with the majority of the cast.

From what I've seen WoP works fine still. It's just not as cool because everyone can do it.

Dair to rest?
WOMG a consistent combo.
in comparison to the many other setups she had in melee right?
As for your consistent combo it isn't consistent. I attempted it on a level 9comp and they DI'ed before I could land the rest and I got punished.

Yes, it's not really consistent. Every hit of dair has to hit the opponent otherwise they can escape.

Sheik is faster has better priority. She has two kill moves and her F tilt combos really well.
Her recovery is better than it was in melee actually so fail on your part.

Well, everyone's is better than it was in Melee, so that's not saying much. I'm not sure about this but didn't Jiggz retain her aerial priority?

The rest of what you say seems true.

@ Meta-Kirby: No way is Yoshi bottom, dude. Loss of DJC is actually a buff in Brawl's physics system. Having played with him, it's astonishing how underrated he is.

 

[SaxDude93]

@ Meta-Kirby: No way is Yoshi bottom, dude. Loss of DJC is actually a buff in Brawl's physics system. Having played with him, it's astonishing how underrated he is.

Great, so the Yoshi fanboys were right. Next they're going to come in and say "We were right, " "We were right." Quote me on that.

 

[Blistering Speed]

2nd worst matchups in the game -_-, that's all I have to say when people contest Yoshi's placement

 

[Gindler]

I agree with kiwi about yoshi, low tier at least

anyhoo, I think the new tier lists should not have a bottom tier. Just end it at low so mains like me won't complain too much from now on.

and yoshi's matchups aren't that bad, I can't think of many disadvantage matches besides zelda, and some will argue that he is a snake counter (i wouldn't say so myself). Other than that he seems to be on the level with most characters.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Thhen theyll complain about low tier >.<

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Yoshi can be pretty tight. Not bottom
A good egg game, some pretty sweet aerials,
and a CG on a couple people.

But he is greatly wrecked by Zelda and Falco.

 

[ShadowLink84]

From what I've seen WoP works fine still. It's just not as cool because everyone can do it.

Not really. The WOp doesn't go for as long and the lack of hitstun and increase in DI ability makes it easier to escape. It isn't just that others can do it, but rather she can no longer do it to the same extent as in melee.

Well, everyone's is better than it was in Melee, so that's not saying much. I'm not sure about this but didn't Jiggz retain her aerial priority?

Not too sure, I think she may have lost some ofit but I don't have my melee game so I cannot check.

@ Meta-Kirby: No way is Yoshi bottom, dude. Loss of DJC is actually a buff in Brawl's physics system. Having played with him, it's astonishing how underrated he is.

Indeed I actually think yoshi may have benefited from the new system that Brawl has brought.

Granted he's still a poor character but I think he's better in now than he was in melee's gameplay.

 

[Theftz22]

Hizzlum, I think your high tier should be as follows:

G and W
Falco
Marth
Dedede
ROB

And lucas is no way that high. I just pick marth whenever someone plays as him and... INFINITE GRAB!!!

P.S. Unrelatedly, I think that in time wario will get into high tier. Tournament records have shown this so far.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I have to say, G&W is misplaced.

He should be in top ;D

 

[Theftz22]

ShadowLink84: the more I read your posts the more I realize that you are just a whining sonic fanboy. Well sonic sucks and get over it.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

WOP does not work anymore because there is barely any hitstun. If it works your opponent can't air dodge.

 

[St. Viers]

gah, >_<

re: jiggz....someone has to be bottom, and c-falcon isn't the only one ^_^

I love the puff, and have used her to great brawl success, but she still isn't that good. Because of move degradation, the buffed sweetspot on the f-air makes you unable to use it to combo at low percents, and unable to kill at high percents, as you'll be using her f-air alot....some goes with the b-air.

To be fair, her ground game was buffed, but her being on the ground is enough of a problem that it offsets this.

Also, @shadowlink: you almost lost points there, but you made it up, by bringing up FFTA2....can't ****ing wait ^_^ (also, I've been playing magic since kindergarten (i'm 19 now), so I have an ingrained dislike of Yugioh... =P

@ underdog-- that's like calling EL a marth fanboy--whether it's true or not is irrelevent, as they're still right. ^_^