Ike definitely belongs in low. He can be outmatched by pretty much anyone who's faster than him... which is most of the cast. He has great KO potential, but he seems a lot like a longer-ranged version of Melee Bowser. His recovery is pretty bad too, as he only has two options at any given time and he's so heavy that he might not be able to do it anyway.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
SwordmasterXXXI
Smash Journeyman
The only thing id change is moving Diddy up maybe one space. Otherwise everything is fine.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Didn't Azen move on to Lucario? He's been **** near unbeatable with him too, I've only seen him lose to the likes of M2K.
tutata
Smash Ace
Your kidding right?
SwordmasterXXXI
Smash Journeyman
Why the hell woud you respond to a 4 month old post? -_-
Monshou_no_Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Because even after that time, there's STILL no way Kaizer can be serious.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
He's got a lot more options and a couple of quick moves, plus the range and priority DOES make a major difference. He's also got definite mind games techniques to work with, and he's better ko moves then bowser did.
He's not top tier by any stretch of the imagination, but he's no melee bowser.
His tournament rankings have made that abundantly clear.
Though, the fact that he can't ISJR with just about any of his moves might hurt him in the future, but that's a little too prospective for us right now.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
Diddy kong King is the best diddy combo video I have seen(one of the best brawl combo videos on youtube in my opinion)(I have seen all of AZ's too), but diddy has not been doing well in tournaments,which is an important part placing a character in a tier list. He also doesent have very good match-ups compared to fox,IC's,kirby and zelda, so until diddy proves his potencial in tournaments, it would be difficult to place him any higher when he has not shown much in the brawl metagame(like mario,we have to wait till we see some improvement in tournament placings and then reconsider his placing for the top of the middle/upper). As for Ike, his match-ups out weigh his tournament placings as he is at a disadvatnge by speed(I have taken him out of the middle tier as a candidate for the top of the low tier).
Here is my list after the comments:
Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.
The four best tiers of brawl:
Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK
High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco
Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
TL
Pit
Olimar
Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS
Others could be added to the middle tier (i.e Ike, Sonic ,Peach, Luigi, sheik ,mario, ness, samus)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to low beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. I am struggling with my middle tier, please help by commenting on a character's placing if it should be reconsidered
(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
TehBo49
Smash Ace
No, he's not Melee Bowser. He is low tier because he has no efficient way to deal with camping. The fact that he can't camp himself means he has to approach & his approach is predictable & punishable.
My theory on his tournament wins is because of his popularity when the game first came out & people weren't used to him yet.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Question shouldn't sonic be placed n mid tier?
he has won in 3 major tournaments and has placed somewhat decently and is currently C rank. (refer to ankoku's opic)
Also his matchups aren't too bad and appear to be typical of a mid tier character. he desn't have a large amount of advantages but he doesn't have many disadvantages (only two of which are hard counters). Many of his matches actually appear to lean more towards neutral.
As for Luigi I think he is mid tier. Granted theorycraft alone isn't enough but the matchups that he has show he doesn't have many disadvantages either. I am unsure about his placement in the tournaments. I will check ankoku's topic and report anything significant.
he has won in 3 major tournaments and has placed somewhat decently and is currently C rank. (refer to ankoku's opic)
Also his matchups aren't too bad and appear to be typical of a mid tier character. he desn't have a large amount of advantages but he doesn't have many disadvantages (only two of which are hard counters). Many of his matches actually appear to lean more towards neutral.
As for Luigi I think he is mid tier. Granted theorycraft alone isn't enough but the matchups that he has show he doesn't have many disadvantages either. I am unsure about his placement in the tournaments. I will check ankoku's topic and report anything significant.
Hey, a fellow WoW player! I can tell cuz you used the term theorycraft.
I'm not sure about Sonic. He's neutral on a lot of matchups, but how does he place against those on the lower tiers? If he's neutral with them I'd but him on mid borderline low.
agreed that sonic should be at the bottom of mid tier. He has done mediocre in tournaments and sonics such as hella's show the true potential that he has.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Sonic is at the borderline of C and D rank, barely in C.
You can't nesscessarily keep using those 3 wins as an arugment. You know who else has 3 wins? Ike, what is he generally considered by people who know what they're talking about? Low for the most part, Low-Mid ( I also don't believe that he's bottom of the Mid Tier anymore, I was "reminded" of how bad he really was). Not to mention, his placing outside of those wins has been completely non-existant, I can't remember the last time I saw him rise.
MaxThunder
PM Support
tier lists are just something thats made from observations of how different characters where used in tournaments and wich tactics you can use on them to win and which tactics are the best and then its put on a list where best goes highest... it doesnt mean they are the best. it doesnt stop anyone from playing their favorites... and you can win if you got skill enough!! (ooops.. to long whitout a ...)
I have a question. I am in no way saying Falco as bad, but I have never seen the reasoning for why he is up that high.
I do not doubt you guys all probably are right that he is up there but could someone give me a quick low done on him...
I do not doubt you guys all probably are right that he is up there but could someone give me a quick low done on him...
insane chaingrab, good dair spike, shdl, good speed, fairly heavy, great matchups, and success in tournaments
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
One of the, if not the best campers in the game, Amazing spacing with shine and lazer, the best spike in the game (imo, G Dorf's could be seen as better) A good air and ground game, no problems killing, a virtually ungimpable recovery in Illusion and a CG ranging 0-30 to 0-60 on virtually every character which lead to said spike.
*Edit* **** you beat me to it XD
*Edit* **** you beat me to it XD
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,638
He's not heavy and his recovery is terrible, everything else you said though is true.
FlashGearz
Smash Apprentice
I say moveMarth up to Top tier. He has rather good match ups against most of the cast, being slightly behind Metaknight imo. Faster then snake, with still pretty good knockback on many or his moves. Great aerial game, good ground game, all 4 of his B moves are now usable. Nice solid recovery. Lack of projectile is made for by huge disjointed hit box.
Then thatcould move Lucas up to high, where he should be, with his **** amazing attack
Then thatcould move Lucas up to high, where he should be, with his **** amazing attack
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,638
lol, Marth is not top tier, he's good but there's no way he's better than Snake or MK; they both have monstrous power and recoveries, not to mention they can pressure opponents like ****.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
He Doesn't nesscessarily have to be better than those two. If the Top Tier isn't only Snake/MK, then I think Marth should be one of them, probably behind G&W. I would say Falco, but EL has made pretty strong arguements earlier proving that wrong >_>.
PK Hexagon
Smash Apprentice
Reading comprehension. He didn't say Marth was better than Snake or Meta Knight.
Judge Judy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 18, 2008
- Messages
- 1,638
I'm just saying that Marth would need a lot to be top tier and some nice sounding attributes on paper isn't enough to make that happen.
Allbrex
Smash Apprentice
Yea along with TLink, but at least Marth is winning in tournaments so that proves his ability. TLink on the other hand, I'm still wondering why he's listed as high tier on so many people's tier lists (and having so many favorable matchups on the matchup chart) when he doesn't win much of anything.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
I had sonic as a debateable candidate for the bottom of the middle tier beacuse his tournament placement, but then I looked at his match-ups, in which his bad match-ups outweigh most of his good ones.He has a good share of neutrals, but a fair amount of his match-ups give him the disadvantage, so I think his match-ups negate some of his tournament sucess and in my opinion would more accurately be at the top of the low tier.(If you give me more evidence to justify sonic's position at the bottom of the middle rather than the top of the low tier, I will reconsider his placement.
As for luigi in the middle tier,He has not done that well in tournies compared to sonic and his match-ups are only slightly better than sonic, so he could be accurately placed under sonic at the top of the low tier beacuse of luigi's lack of tournament sucess.
If anyone disagrees with my middle/upper tiers please feel free to comment as I make this list more accurate. I will start my low/bottom tier if no one disagrees with my middle tier.
Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.
The four best tiers of brawl:
Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK
High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco
Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
TL
Pit
Olimar
Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
ZSS
Others could be added to the middle tier (i.e , Sonic, Luigi ,Peach, sheik,Ike ,mario, ness, samus)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to low beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par. I am struggling with my middle tier, please help by commenting on a character's placing if it should be reconsidered
(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
Browny
Smash Hater
ike also didnt win 3 major tournaments. dont forget a sonic beat sethlons falco... and well, anyone who does that deserves a tier boost lol 
and please hizzlum stop posting your tier list twice on every page. we get it, we saw it the first 10 times. at least give other people a chance to post what they think.
btw your mid tier looks random. go off tourney results if nothing else
and please hizzlum stop posting your tier list twice on every page. we get it, we saw it the first 10 times. at least give other people a chance to post what they think.
btw your mid tier looks random. go off tourney results if nothing else
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
And what exactly has Sonic done since then? Seth's still owning, as he won Hobo 5 a couple days ago.ike also didnt win 3 major tournaments. dont forget a sonic beat sethlons falco... and well, anyone who does that deserves a tier boost lol
and please hizzlum stop posting your tier list twice on every page. we get it, we saw it the first 10 times. at least give other people a chance to post what they think.
btw your mid tier looks random. go off tourney results if nothing else
I can't remember the last time he's even rose in Ankoku's tourney data, he's been dropping like a rock, while characters who we knew were good from the start are starting to rise
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
Well put together list and a kimbo sig, you sir are a man after my own heart.
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
Most of the placement has went of ankoku's tournament placings and match-up threads,the two crucial parts of creating a tier list.ike also didnt win 3 major tournaments. dont forget a sonic beat sethlons falco... and well, anyone who does that deserves a tier boost lol
and please hizzlum stop posting your tier list twice on every page. we get it, we saw it the first 10 times. at least give other people a chance to post what they think.
btw your mid tier looks random. go off tourney results if nothing else
I spend quite a while on every character's placement by first looking at the tourney placings, then going to that characters forum and look at there match-up threads. Then suggestions and evidence of others help me change their placings and then I look to knowledgebale people(Ch0zen one's tier list, emblem Lord's suggestions) if they concur on a characters placement. I'm trying to get a very accurate tier list that we all can agree on and look to improve it as the metagame evolves.
Also, Azen won Chudat's biweeklies with Ike against M2k,chillin, and Chudat, all of which are top pros in melee who are still great in brawl showing that Ike can be played at his fullest potencial at the highest level of meta-game.
Tournament placings are the core of a character's placement on a tier list, and Sonic has done mediorce in the metagame and has slighty subpar match-ups, so I can only place him at the top of the low tier with all due respect beacuse their are characters that do overall better than him in tournaments and in match-ups.
My middle tier random?I have done all the steps to make this list as accurate as possible and you come in just to say its random with no evidence. If you back up your arguement,I will listen like I have with all the other people and make this list better, just saying statements like that is not productive in creating an accurate tier list.
And also, i'm not stopping people from posting tier lists,but I will stop double posting my tier lists on the same page. I just think we all need to concentrate on one tier list to perfect so no one has to argue which character is better in the metagame.
@ Fogo: Your the only dude on smashboards to actually recognize my kimbo sig. lol. Kimbo is a superstarMMA fighter now after his win on primetime television(I'm a fan way back before his MMA career when he fought the consesual fights)
hizzlum
Smash Journeyman
Yes I think it would be the most accurate way of defining the PT teir placement beacuse all the pokemon need to be used in order to play at the highest level of meta-game.The stamina factor make is nessecary to incorporate them all into a battle, but I have a way of compromising both arguements that the PT should be one or three characters.
We place the PT in a tier and then order the three pokemon by their potencial and match-ups and other evidence brought forth. Here is the example of how I think it should be done
(hypothetical tier for PT character arrangement)
??? tier
N/A
(pokemon 1)
(pokemon 2) }-PT
(pokemon 4)
N/A
My idea of placing them into a tier is like the trinity(lol) all are under the smae title but are three different forms.
Do you agree that the PT should be placed like that? If you disaggre please help me by finding a way of placing the PT on my tier list.
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
Well since your list is based so much on tourney results, why is Wario not in Upper Tier? Arguably the best player winning the best tourneys with a single character uses Wario as that single character. Along with a LOT of other success. Aside from tourney results, he is no doubt at least equal with anyone below top. If not top, but so are a few others possibly.
I can't see Lucas being higher on a list than Ness haha. Ness is equal with a lot of those characters, or better.
Luigi is at LEAST middle tier.
Okay, I just made a really big post that was just your tier list but changed a little and had massive explinations on why things faulter with very little use of all of the aspects that involve tiers but I decided not to post it because I really don't think it'll be fully understood because it's the exact reason things change so much even after 7 years and the exact reason Yoshi is high tier yet low on the list and the exact reason characters are doing well or poorly in tourneys right now when everyone puts them in different places yet everyone uses the very same tourney results to back up why a character shouldn't be high or lower because of said results yet another character should be higher or lower even though said tourney results prove other wise etc etc etc blah blah so....
I'm just gonna post my tiers lol
no order, blah
Top
MK, Pikachu, Wario, Snake, G&W,
High
Dedede, Luigi, Marth, Falco, Ness, DK,
Middle
ROB, Toon Link, Zelda, Pit, Pokemon Trainer, Ice Climbers, Fox, Kirby, Diddy Kong, Lucario,
Low
Jigglypuff, Yoshi, Bowser, Link, Lucas, Peach, Ganon, Mario, Falcon, Olimar, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Sonic, Sheik
Bottom
Ike lol
I rather like this list I just made too...hm...
Explinations later.
Well,
Pika, Wario and G&W are just as good as MK and Snake but are either used less yet the few are successful, don't have the obvious amazing match ups or are just overshadowed.
The characters in high tier can all compete with nearly any character and are all round very very good.
Middle is all of the characters that just happen to have those few bad match ups or a couple little tiny traits like a gimpable something or lack of something that takes them out of upper.
Low is really like a mid tier almost. These are all of the characters that have a few things holding them back from the ability to win in any situation. There is always one little trait that, in the right situation, completely screws them over. They are none the less very good characters and can pull out their share of wins, they just have to hope they don't run into their weakness at the wrong time, which is ever.
Bottom is Ike, he sucks haha. I was going to throw in Ganon or Sonic but they can both compete often against a variety of character. Ike just can't, like what does he always win with? It's something that can be avoided by anyone, slowness and lack of damage dealing and lack of chaining and gimpable and single tracked and everything is bad but range. Everyone has a couple powerfull attacks but they can hit with theirs as much as Ike can hit them at all, it's good that his attacks are actually powerfull cause everything else sucks. He has to rely on range, not power, and as we all know, range isn't exactly impossible to stop even if it's fast, hard and everywhere. G&W and Marth still has weaknesses even with their range yet their range is still their best weapon. They need that PLUS other traits to win, Ike has NO other traits.
On other news, I "could" combine middle with high but whatever, 5 is probably best :\
Edit: PT is best like what you said there hizzlum
Also, Azen is an amazing player. He could use a large variety of characters in melee. This is beyond anything any other "pro" could do and that has really shown now that a new game has come out. He is good at the game naturally in terms of how to play and learn, he doesn't rely on muscle memory, routine or anything else, THAT is why most players reach that level. If you ask me, he is in fact the best player in the world. He's ridiculous really!
I can't see Lucas being higher on a list than Ness haha. Ness is equal with a lot of those characters, or better.
Luigi is at LEAST middle tier.
Okay, I just made a really big post that was just your tier list but changed a little and had massive explinations on why things faulter with very little use of all of the aspects that involve tiers but I decided not to post it because I really don't think it'll be fully understood because it's the exact reason things change so much even after 7 years and the exact reason Yoshi is high tier yet low on the list and the exact reason characters are doing well or poorly in tourneys right now when everyone puts them in different places yet everyone uses the very same tourney results to back up why a character shouldn't be high or lower because of said results yet another character should be higher or lower even though said tourney results prove other wise etc etc etc blah blah so....
I'm just gonna post my tiers lol
no order, blah
Top
MK, Pikachu, Wario, Snake, G&W,
High
Dedede, Luigi, Marth, Falco, Ness, DK,
Middle
ROB, Toon Link, Zelda, Pit, Pokemon Trainer, Ice Climbers, Fox, Kirby, Diddy Kong, Lucario,
Low
Jigglypuff, Yoshi, Bowser, Link, Lucas, Peach, Ganon, Mario, Falcon, Olimar, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Sonic, Sheik
Bottom
Ike lol
I rather like this list I just made too...hm...
Explinations later.
Well,
Pika, Wario and G&W are just as good as MK and Snake but are either used less yet the few are successful, don't have the obvious amazing match ups or are just overshadowed.
The characters in high tier can all compete with nearly any character and are all round very very good.
Middle is all of the characters that just happen to have those few bad match ups or a couple little tiny traits like a gimpable something or lack of something that takes them out of upper.
Low is really like a mid tier almost. These are all of the characters that have a few things holding them back from the ability to win in any situation. There is always one little trait that, in the right situation, completely screws them over. They are none the less very good characters and can pull out their share of wins, they just have to hope they don't run into their weakness at the wrong time, which is ever.
Bottom is Ike, he sucks haha. I was going to throw in Ganon or Sonic but they can both compete often against a variety of character. Ike just can't, like what does he always win with? It's something that can be avoided by anyone, slowness and lack of damage dealing and lack of chaining and gimpable and single tracked and everything is bad but range. Everyone has a couple powerfull attacks but they can hit with theirs as much as Ike can hit them at all, it's good that his attacks are actually powerfull cause everything else sucks. He has to rely on range, not power, and as we all know, range isn't exactly impossible to stop even if it's fast, hard and everywhere. G&W and Marth still has weaknesses even with their range yet their range is still their best weapon. They need that PLUS other traits to win, Ike has NO other traits.
On other news, I "could" combine middle with high but whatever, 5 is probably best :\
Edit: PT is best like what you said there hizzlum
Also, Azen is an amazing player. He could use a large variety of characters in melee. This is beyond anything any other "pro" could do and that has really shown now that a new game has come out. He is good at the game naturally in terms of how to play and learn, he doesn't rely on muscle memory, routine or anything else, THAT is why most players reach that level. If you ask me, he is in fact the best player in the world. He's ridiculous really!
Sh1n0b1
Smash Journeyman
@ Dynamism?
I have a feeling your an Ike hater.
I have a feeling your an Ike hater.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
No he hasn't.
He has 3 wins and several times has ended up in the top eight. Compared to other characters like Mario, and bowser and captain falcon who actually have mediocre standings.
Perhaps it has something to do with the amount of usage the character receives.
There aren't many Sonic mains and if you look at tourney charts you would see that Sonic has definitely not had much usage during tournaments.
D rank
24 Zero Suit Samus (7 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 23.5 pts)
25 Diddy Kong (12 top8, 4 top4, 1 win, 21 pts)
26 Luigi (5 top8, 4 top4, 1 win, 17.5 pts)
26 Sheik (5 top8, 4 top4, 1 win, 17.5 pts)
28 Ness (4 top8, 2 top4, 1 win, 12 pts)
29 Mario (4 top8, 3 top4, 9.5 pts)
29 Bowser (4 top8, 3 top4,9.5 pts) <30>
All of the above characters are often considered mid tier level (except Bowser and Ness) and Diddy Kong is often seen as being high up in the mid tier list.
It is not surprising to see that sonic is dropping or the fact that Luigi, Sheik, ZSS, Mario are in D rank.
The same goes for the above characters. They hardly receive as much usage as DDD, Snake, MK and Lucario had definitely seen a boost in usage during this time.
So it isn't accurate to say oh Sonic isn't good because he hasn't been winning much.
Is Diddy deserving of low tier simply because he hasn't been winning much? Of course not, popularity can influence the results.
Well the main reason for many of his disadvantage is also due to the ideas that people seem to be stuck on.
For example how his matchup list says he is at a disadvantage to Samus which is grossly untrue.
Or how the ZSS forums still believe that sonic is at a great disadvantage against ZSS.
So those misconceptions have affected Sonic's amtchup list.
Sonic actually does have a larger amount of advantages/neutral than disadvantages.
The matchup list has several things that irk me somewhat.
For example Samus vs Sonic is an advantage for Sonic yet it is listed as disadvantaged. At the very least it should be neutral.
It is largely believed by both Olimar and Sonic mains that Sonic goes neutral with Olimar, a character who is a very good candidate for high tier.
It is also known that Sonic has at least a neutral matchup with DK who counters Snake and MK. Even if he does have a disadvantage it is a soft one.
Or how people believe Ike is neutral to Sonic despite the fact that Sonic can easily kill him at low percentages and can approach him very quickly.
Sonic also at least has neutral matchup with Pit. Mainly because he can approach pit, and pressure him. While Pit has dominance of the air a grounded Sonic can pose trouble since Pit's range on the ground isn't very large and Sonic can approach Pit very quickly without much difficulty.
Sonic has more neutral/advantage matchups rather than disadvantaged matchups.
Some of the disadvantaged matchups are also soft counters they don't hit him hard enough to the point that he would lose.
I Do think he is a candidate for mid tier.his disadvantages only really occur with upper mid tier and up.
Bottom and low tier characters he outperforms those characters too much for him to be with them.
*shrug*
Of course Sonic is one of those characters that are hard to define in playstyle since every Sonic plays him differently so it will be awhile before he is really placed in a tier solidly.
at worst I think he is in the lower half of mid tier. (I say lower half since the mid tier has often had issues in character placement since i want to keep it general since things tend to shift.)
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
I'm no Ike hater, I use Ike. Used him today and pulled of a sick double spike in doubles matches with his UpB from the stage and grabbed the ledge then they KOed each other trying to recover. lol Ike is freakin sweet like that. He sucks though haha
Edit:
See this little phrase here?
"Of course Sonic is one of those characters that are hard to define in playstyle since every Sonic plays him differently so it will be awhile before he is really placed in a tier solidly."
That is beyond anything posted here yet. This applies to this character among many others a LOT. Look at Pika and Azen!
Azen plays Pika, so does Anther, so do I. Anther plays Pika better than Azen who plays better than myself yet at the same time we all play NOTHING alike and have all had great success on every Pikaocasion. lol
Edit:
See this little phrase here?
"Of course Sonic is one of those characters that are hard to define in playstyle since every Sonic plays him differently so it will be awhile before he is really placed in a tier solidly."
That is beyond anything posted here yet. This applies to this character among many others a LOT. Look at Pika and Azen!
Azen plays Pika, so does Anther, so do I. Anther plays Pika better than Azen who plays better than myself yet at the same time we all play NOTHING alike and have all had great success on every Pikaocasion. lol
Grunt
Smash Master
...That actually go to tournaments. wannabes however, is a different story.
I do not agree that you can say because he can beat a guy who has an advantage over top tier guys necessarily makes him good. You could go down a list and put that logic to any amount of characters
- Status