Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[TehBo49]

Zelda very seldom has to approach & Olimar's recovery is only a slight problem. What are the hideously bad matchups you're talking about anyway?

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I am fond of Hizzium's list so far. I think if it were complete that we should work off of it.

 

[DanGR]

For Olimar, he's probably referring to yoshi and wolf, though wolf is only a problem when you can't avoid his spammage. If he does the match right, he can avoid the laser and the pikmin will deal more damage than the laser will. This should be changed in teh chart though... Zelda's approach game isn't horrible, but it's pretty lousy. She does have to approach versus most characters with projectiles though.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario's current match-up chart is outdated, you can't take that thing seriously.

 

[???????]

SRK generally thinks of Mario as a low tier character, and neither his match-ups or tournament results can be used to disprove it.

Mario's current match-up chart is very outdated and a new one is currently being revised. Also, Mario poor tourney placement reflects that of Diddy; they are both generally underrated as characters and often don't see a lot of representation in tournaments.

 

[DanGR]

jiovanni-you're absolutely right.

So you're telling me that Kirby has bad match-ups against several popular tournament characters yet deserves to be moved up? What are his good match-ups? What puts him above the other characters in mid tier?

He has bad matchups in the higher tiers, but not any significant ones below that:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Falco, GaW, IC, MK, Marth, Pikachu, Pit, Snake, TL, Ness, Ike and Zelda have the advantage over Kirby from looking at this chart. Kirby's matchups seem correct except Ike shouldn't have the advantage. Ness is the only one significantly below the highest tier. Thus Kirby is good versus everyone below the Highest tier? Shouldn't that make him just below the highest tier? I think so. How bout anyone else? Kirby isn't doing well in tourneys b/c the most popular characters are the good ones, which happen to be in the highest tiers. There's my analysis of Kirby's placement in tiers. Take it or leave it.

Edit: to anyone else who doubts the chart-quit whining and go help revise it.

 

[jiovanni007]

jiovanni-you're absolutely right.



He has bad matchups in the higher tiers, but not any significant ones below that:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Falco, GaW, IC, MK, Marth, Pikachu, Pit, Snake, TL, Ness, Ike and Zelda have the advantage over Kirby from looking at this chart. Kirby's matchups seem correct except Ike shouldn't have the advantage. Ness is the only one significantly below the highest tier. Thus Kirby is good versus everyone below the Highest tier? Shouldn't that make him just below the highest tier? I think so. How bout anyone else? Kirby isn't doing well in tourneys b/c the most popular characters are the good ones, which happen to be in the highest tiers. There's my analysis of Kirby's placement in tiers. Take it or leave it.

Edit: to anyone else who doubts the chart-quit whining and go help revise it.

Not whining about the chart but I can honestly say that Falco, Pit, Toon Link (yes Toon Link), and Zelda have no advantage over Kirby. Snake's advantage isn't that large and can be dealt with without the slim margin of error that you have with say Pika and IC. That leaves GaW, IC, Marth, MK, and Pika. That's 5 out of 15 that he is at a disadvantage against. He also has better tourney standings than Toon, Zelda, and IC. Seems like there is a breakdown in logic somewhere.

Kirby ~ Toon Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od7sFSF-afY

 

[TehBo49]

For Olimar, he's probably referring to yoshi and wolf, though wolf is only a problem when you can't avoid his spammage. If he does the match right, he can avoid the laser and the pikmin will deal more damage than the laser will. This should be changed in teh chart though... Zelda's approach game isn't horrible, but it's pretty lousy. She does have to approach versus most characters with projectiles though.

Zelda does have a reflector, so she doesn't have to approach every projectile spammer.

Both characters deserve higher than where they are.

 

[fkacyan]

SRK generally thinks of Mario as a low tier character, and neither his match-ups or tournament results can be used to disprove it.

EDIT: Well, actually, that should be fairly obvious to most without me saying it.

 

[DanGR]

TehBo-I agree also, but the reflector isn't enough. It has too much after lag to reflect most projectiles efficiently. I need to post a vid of me outcamping Zelda sometime witha a bunch of characters.

Jiovanni-we're on the same page, I don't disagree with you at all. I don't main Kirby though, so I don't have as much experience against all those characters. I can say that Kirby shouldn't be too high up there though b/c most of them are either disadvantageous or neutral for Kirby. I think he'd be fine just below IC. Do you agree? Where do you think he should place?

Edit: thyanocide- I agree with what you originally posted.

 

[jiovanni007]

TehBo-I agree also, but the reflector isn't enough. It has too much after lag to reflect most projectiles efficiently. I need to post a vid of me outcamping Zelda sometime witha a bunch of characters.

Jiovanni-we're on the same page, I don't disagree with you at all. I don't main Kirby though, so I don't have as much experience against all those characters. I can say that Kirby shouldn't be too high up there though b/c most of them are either disadvantageous or neutral for Kirby. I think he'd be fine just below IC. Do you agree? Where do you think he should place?

Edit: thyanocide- I agree with what you originally posted.

I would put IC right above Pit and Kirby right below IC still as you said.

 

[fkacyan]

thyanocide- I agree with what you originally posted.

Lol items in EVO.

 

[DanGR]

^haha

10char

 

[hizzlum]

Still don't understand why Kirby still isn't anywhere on this list or other people's tier list. Kirby places better than Toon Link, Zelda, and Ice Climbers. I pretty much believe most people may have settled on the fact that the first two are overrated. No reason Kirby shouldn't be here somewhere. I would say below Luke.

Edit:

I've said this before, but his match-ups aren't that bad in the upper tier. This is form a Kirby main, not a match-up thread. The only tough matches up there are GaW, Marth, Meta, and Pika (IC are tough, but clearly they currently don't match the upper tiers). All of the others are neutral or advantageous (though they are mostly neutral).

.

If you looked at the bottom of the list you could see that I had kirby as a debateable character in the upper tier, its match-ups are overall better than mediocre(when a character has more than a handful of disadvantages, there us a problem) and it places better than TL and olimar so I will put him at the bottom of the upper on the account of its match-ups
Also be aware that I will constantly revise my list when people prove with evidence that a character deserves a spot in a tier or placing(i.e. you right now having told me kirby's tourney placings) beacuse I just want to create the most accurate list for the common tournament playable characters.
I am always revising the list with evidence from knowledgebale people
Please comment on the list or character placings

The three best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
DK
Lucario
TL
Pit


Others could be added to the upper tier (i.e kirby, olimar, zelda,fox, IC's)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly above par. I am currently struggling at creating a cut-off in the upper that would become the middle tier, if anyone could help at where I should establish the cutoff(In my opinion it should be right under Pit)

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)

 

[Blackbelt]

If you looked at the bottom of the list you could see that I had kirby as a debateable character in the upper tier, its match-ups are overall better than mediocre(when a character has more than a handful of disadvantages, there us a problem) and it places better than TL and olimar so I will put him at the bottom of the upper on the account of its match-ups
Also be aware that I will constantly revise my list when people prove with evidence that a character deserves a spot in a tier or placing(i.e. you right now having told me kirby's tourney placings) beacuse I just want to create the most accurate list for the common tournament playable characters.
I am always revising the list with evidence from knowledgebale people
Please comment on the list or character placings

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
DK
Lucario
TL
Pit
Kirby(debateable candidate for top of middle tier)

Others could be added to the upper tier (i.e olimar, zelda,Diddy Kong,mario, IC's)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly above par. I am currently struggling at creating a cut-off in the upper that would become the middle tier, if anyone could help at where I should establish the cutoff(In my opinion it should be right under Pit)

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)

I must say, that is a nice Tier list.

Though I do wonder where the Low and Bottom parts of the list are.

 

[St. Viers]

I saw that avatar and hoped it was PC Chris reverting to his old one....so disappointed >_<

 

[hizzlum]

I must say, that is a nice Tier list.

Though I do wonder where the Low and Bottom parts of the list are.

I really am just trying to get an accuarate picture of the tournament playable characters, but once I have finished the upper tier(need help with the cut-off,in my opinion it should be right under pit) and then I will work on the lower tiers/characters who typically do not place well at tournaments and have overall not so good match-ups. most of smashboards and AIB agree on the two highest tiers(the top is undebatale, Snake and MK and there is the next group(high tier:G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,falco) are not up for much more discussion, and most knowledgeable people agree on those two tiers. Debate occurs at the upper/mid tier placings that I am currently working on and then I will continue into the middle/low/bottom tiers.

 

[Blackbelt]

I really am just trying to get an accuarate picture of the tournament playable characters, but once I have finished the upper tier(need help with the cut-off,in my opinion it should be right under pit) and then I will work on the lower tiers/characters who typically do not place well at tournaments and have overall not so good match-ups. most of smashboards and AIB agree on the two highest tiers(the top is undebatale, Snake and MK and there is the next group(high tier:G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,falco) are not up for much more discussion, and most knowledgeable people agree on those two tiers. Debate occurs at the upper/mid tier placings that I am currently working on and then I will continue into the middle/low/bottom tiers.

Makes sense.


Though I would want to see the next 5 or 6 fighters on the list. THat would make it easier to come up with an accurate cutoff point.

 

[???????]

I really am just trying to get an accuarate picture of the tournament playable characters, but once I have finished the upper tier(need help with the cut-off,in my opinion it should be right under pit) and then I will work on the lower tiers/characters who typically do not place well at tournaments and have overall not so good match-ups. most of smashboards and AIB agree on the two highest tiers(the top is undebatale, Snake and MK and there is the next group(high tier:G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,falco) are not up for much more discussion, and most knowledgeable people agree on those two tiers. Debate occurs at the upper/mid tier placings that I am currently working on and then I will continue into the middle/low/bottom tiers.

That sounds good and that's good way of setting up the chart/list.

*Keep up the good work*

 

[hizzlum]

Makes sense.


Though I would want to see the next 5 or 6 fighters on the list. THat would make it easier to come up with an accurate cutoff point.

The rest of the bottom upper/top of the middle tier will be (with the evidence that I have gathered ranging from many knowledgebale sources)
"Middle tier"
Kirby
Olimar
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Ike
Lucas
ZSS
This is completly open for debate as I have not finished my upper tier cut-off and some of these characters could move up or down if someone supports them with evidence. Right now a more accurate middle tier would be created with a less vague and more solid upper tier, I will proceed to the middle/low/bottom tiers

 

[???????]

I think Mario probably should be on that list but there's still a lot revisions and discussion going on with Mario at the moment, so I’ll have to wait until there’s a bit more progression to present any real evidence to justify putting Mario on that list.

 

[hizzlum]

I think Mario probably should be on that list but there's still a lot revisions and discussion going on with Mario, so I’ll have to wait until there’s a bit more progression to present any real evidence to justify putting Mario on that list.

I agree, mario right now is being disscussed as people like boss are winning tournies with him. Right now he is up for grabs as we see him truly develop now in the metagame, which at first did not show his true potencial. I will reserve my judgement on mario's placing until there is further discussion and he wins more tournies

 

[DanGR]

I really am just trying to get an accuarate picture of the tournament playable characters, but once I have finished the upper tier(need help with the cut-off,in my opinion it should be right under pit) and then I will work on the lower tiers/characters who typically do not place well at tournaments and have overall not so good match-ups. most of smashboards and AIB agree on the two highest tiers(the top is undebatale, Snake and MK and there is the next group(high tier:G&W,DDD,Marth,ROB,falco) are not up for much more discussion, and most knowledgeable people agree on those two tiers. Debate occurs at the upper/mid tier placings that I am currently working on and then I will continue into the middle/low/bottom tiers.

Olimar is definitely tourney viable. I've compiled some earlier tourney videos of one of the best Olimars, if not the best, versus some of the best smashers and characters in the country including DSF's Marth, PM's Snake, and Futile's Wario. This was at a Lake Forest tourney a while ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWVGiLCLcI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-5rDtCDvhY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxcVUqXxSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZS4GWEOB7s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOT-IqBamE&NR=1

 

[Northbound]

olimar > snake (in that specific matchup anyway)

 

[hizzlum]

Olimar is definitely tourney viable. I've compiled some earlier tourney videos of one of the best Olimars, if not the best, versus some of the best smashers and characters in the country including DSF's Marth, PM's Snake, and Futile's Wario. This was at a Lake Forest tourney a while ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEWVGiLCLcI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-5rDtCDvhY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxcVUqXxSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZS4GWEOB7s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOT-IqBamE&NR=1

After looking at olimar's match-ups, which are on the better side of the spectrum and mostly give him neutral/good match-ups with most of the upper/high/top tiers, and his tounament placings which are a little above the middle line,I believe I can safely place olimar at the bottom of the upper tier beacuse mainly of his eye-catching match-ups. I doubt that he will rise on the list beacuse of his recovery(which is the worst in the game, rivaling ivysaur)
Please comment on the list or character placings

The three best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
DK
Lucario
TL
Pit
Olimar


Others could be added to the upper tier (i.e kirby, zelda,fox, IC's)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly above par. I am currently struggling at creating a cut-off in the upper that would become the middle tier, if anyone could help at where I should establish the cutoff(In my opinion it should be right underolimar)

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
If anyones disagrees with my upper tier I will make revisions if I am given good evidence the character is better than the that middle tier standard, otherwise I will start creating the middle tier for my list soon

 

[philbobjoe]

As for your tournament viability list, Fox will have a hard time being tournament-viable. This is because of how much of a counter Pikachu is to him. Pikachu can chaingrab him to 80% easily, or can chain until about 72% and then upsmash.

 

[DanGR]

With that small change you made, I say it looks pretty accurate. Wolf though shouldn't be that high IMO. If you learn to play against him regularly, you'll realize that his moveset is very telegraphed and easy to predict. IMO, his recovery is actually the worst in the game under Ivysaur, but no-one seems to acknowledge this. His smashes are very punishable and slow, and his projectile really isn't that great when you learn to move towards it and perfect shield as you move along. He can't edge guard well either. He's overrated.

Edit: And this is coming from an Olimar main too...

 

[hizzlum]

With that small change you made, I say it looks pretty accurate. Wolf though shouldn't be that high IMO. If you learn to play against him regularly, you'll realize that his moveset is very telegraphed and easy to predict. IMO, his recovery is actually the worst in the game under Ivysaur, but no-one seems to acknowledge this. His smashes are very punishable and slow, and his projectile really isn't that great when you learn to move towards it and perfect shield as you move along. He can't edge guard well either. He's overrated.

Edit: And this is coming from an Olimar main too...

Wolf has consistently done well in tournies(one of the more sucessful characters in tournies) and that needs to be recognized. Also his only has a few bad match-ups . His recovery can stage spike and goes a fair distance, and is less easily edgehogged, which gets easy kills on tethers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNOh0ATGIg this destroys tethers ), I made a revision in placement with some upper tiers, but nothing huge.

Please comment on the list or character placings

The three best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
TL
Pit
Olimar


Others could be added to the upper tier (i.e kirby, zelda,fox, IC's)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly above par. I am currently struggling at creating a cut-off in the upper that would become the middle tier, if anyone could help at where I should establish the cutoff(In my opinion it should be right underolimar)

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
If anyones disagrees with my upper tier I will make revisions if I am given good evidence the character is better than the that middle tier standard, otherwise I will start creating the middle tier for my list soon.Please comment if you disagree of the tiers so this list can be more accurate.

 

[Browny]

yes, yes and yes

only thing i would change is DDD and falco. only because dededes wins are slowing down while falcos are picking up, at a very quick pace too.

 

[Turbo Ether]

With that small change you made, I say it looks pretty accurate. Wolf though shouldn't be that high IMO. If you learn to play against him regularly, you'll realize that his moveset is very telegraphed and easy to predict. IMO, his recovery is actually the worst in the game under Ivysaur, but no-one seems to acknowledge this. His smashes are very punishable and slow, and his projectile really isn't that great when you learn to move towards it and perfect shield as you move along. He can't edge guard well either. He's overrated.

Edit: And this is coming from an Olimar main too...

His smashes actually come out fast and have good range. They have enough ending lag to be punished by other fast attacks though. That's the case with Snake's forward tilt, yet it's still the best Ftilt in the game and his best move overall. The speed and range of Wolf's Fsmash allows him to punish better than most of the cast. Easily one of the best Fsmashes in the game. His smashes come out fast enough to punish lots of characters pokes.

His Up B may be stiff, but his Side B is amazing, there's no way he has the worst recovery in the game. Stage scarring also gives him more ledge options than most of the cast.

Also, I don't see how his moveset is more telegraphed than most of the other characters.

 

[Blistering Speed]

yes, yes and yes

only thing i would change is DDD and falco. only because dededes wins are slowing down while falcos are picking up, at a very quick pace too.

Expect DDD's wins to shoot straight back up, M2k has chosen him as his main and is winning every tourney he goes to with him.

 

[Allbrex]

I'm really starting to question TLink even being high tier anymore. He wins almost no tournies, and isn't even ranked well on the tournament standings. Maybe I'm not understanding something, but I'm curious as to why people keep putting TLink on high tier when he hardly wins?

 

[St. Viers]

TL's a char that looks extremely good on paper. He isn't being representd well, so he should prolly go lower, but his theory game is too good to put in a low tier >_>

 

[chckn]

After looking at olimar's match-ups, which are on the better side of the spectrum and mostly give him neutral/good match-ups with most of the upper/high/top tiers, and his tounament placings which are a little above the middle line,I believe I can safely place olimar at the bottom of the upper tier beacuse mainly of his eye-catching match-ups. I doubt that he will rise on the list beacuse of his recovery(which is the worst in the game, rivaling ivysaur)
Please comment on the list or character placings

The three best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
DK
Lucario
TL
Pit
Olimar


Others could be added to the upper tier (i.e kirby, zelda,fox, IC's)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to mid beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly above par. I am currently struggling at creating a cut-off in the upper that would become the middle tier, if anyone could help at where I should establish the cutoff(In my opinion it should be right underolimar)

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)
If anyones disagrees with my upper tier I will make revisions if I am given good evidence the character is better than the that middle tier standard, otherwise I will start creating the middle tier for my list soon

ic deserve to be at least bottom of upper or very top of mid. cg is too good to be ignored and they do well against alot of matchups. Not a very high tournament representation though just b/c of the fact that not many people play them. idk imo its worth a look at least.

 

[biohazard930]

With that small change you made, I say it looks pretty accurate. Wolf though shouldn't be that high IMO. If you learn to play against him regularly, you'll realize that his moveset is very telegraphed and easy to predict. IMO, his recovery is actually the worst in the game under Ivysaur, but no-one seems to acknowledge this. His smashes are very punishable and slow, and his projectile really isn't that great when you learn to move towards it and perfect shield as you move along. He can't edge guard well either. He's overrated.

Edit: And this is coming from an Olimar main too...

How, exactly, is his recovery as bad as you make it out to be? >B uses are obvious, acknowledging scarring. I know his ^B doesn't sweetspot, but vertically, his recovery is ridiculous.
(This comes into play with Yoshi's dairspike.)

 

[Turbo Ether]

How, exactly, is his recovery as bad as you make it out to be? >B uses are obvious, acknowledging scarring. I know his ^B doesn't sweetspot, but vertically, his recovery is ridiculous.
(This comes into play with Yoshi's dairspike.)

The upB does sweetspot

 

[DanGR]

His smashes actually come out fast and have good range. They have enough ending lag to be punished by other fast attacks though. That's the case with Snake's forward tilt, yet it's still the best Ftilt in the game and his best move overall. The speed and range of Wolf's Fsmash allows him to punish better than most of the cast. Easily one of the best Fsmashes in the game.

His Up B may be stiff, but his Side B is amazing, there's no way he has the worst recovery in the game. Stage scarring also gives him more ledge options than most of the cast.

Also, I don't see how his moveset is more telegraphed than most of the other characters.

How, exactly, is his recovery as bad as you make it out to be? >B uses are obvious, acknowledging scarring. I know his ^B doesn't sweetspot, but vertically, his recovery is ridiculous.
(This comes into play with Yoshi's dairspike.)

He's a good character, but not as great as people make him out to be. About his recovery:

He has the least lenient recovery in terms of DI. He can't "direct" where he wants it to go at all. If he's caught up under the ledge, he's dead. There's nothing he can do about it. He can't eeease past the ledge. Also, it's too easy to predict where he's going to use his recovery b/c he has very little options. He has to use it straight diagonally, vertically, or horizontally. Any character can predict when he's going to use which recovery option and jump down to interrupt it-with practice. It's also too hard to sweetspot consistently with either of his recoveries. The timing you have to have plus his ff speed make it difficult.

I'm not talking about ledge options, I'm talking about his recovery, which I think is awful. Scarring is pretty darn good, but has it's weaknesses.

His moveset is too telegraphed and he becomes very predictable. This basically comes with the slight experience I've had in this matchup. If you're one of the doubters, you could always go into the wolf forums and see what they think about their recovery and predictability. If you don't think any of this is correct, you don't have to believe me. I'm not going to push the issue. I just think he's overrated, that's all. No big deal eh?

 

[hizzlum]

ic deserve to be at least bottom of upper or very top of mid. cg is too good to be ignored and they do well against alot of matchups. Not a very high tournament representation though just b/c of the fact that not many people play them. idk imo its worth a look at least.

The IC's have too many neutral and disadvantages that out way their good match-ups, which is a characteristic of a middle tier character(wins about half of his match-ups and is neutral or at a disadvantage on the other half,) The IC's do not do well against the better tiers and their tournament placings show that. Like St Viers said, this is a character that looks good on paper, but has not proven his potencial in tournaments, so putting him in the upper tier would exaggerate his CG, beacuse it has'nt one him many good tournament placings.
I am now starting my middle tier using the previous evidence I attained to create the top/high/upper tiers to make this tier as accuarate as possible.

Please help be commenting on the chart so i can make a more accurate list of the metagame.

The four best tiers of brawl:

Top(Wins most tourneys and has great match-ups)
Snake
MK

High(The group that is slightly below the "Snake and MK standard")
G&W
DDD
Marth
ROB
Falco

Upper(Tournament playable characters who show they are slightly better than the majority of the characters in brawl)
Wario
Pikachu
Wolf
Lucario
DK
TL
Pit
Olimar

Middle Tier(Not rare to see in tournaments who have average match-ups and place worse than the upper tier in tournaments)
Kirby
IC's
Zelda
Fox
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Ike
ZSS
Others could be added to the middle tier (i.e Sonic,Peach,Luigi,sheik,mario,ness,samus)but it is debateable if they should be pushed back to low beacuse of lack in tournament wins and match-ups,which are very slightly below par.

(I used knowledgeable people's tier lists(i.e. ch0zen one), emblem lord's suggestions,ankoku's touranement rankings, and the matchup charts on smash boards to form the list, please reply if you like or not and suggest revision of placements)

 

[SaxDude93]

I disagree to see Ike in mid-mid, which would suggest he's average.

 

[hizzlum]

I disagree to see Ike in mid-mid, which would suggest he's average.

Azen and many others have placed well in tournies with Ike,doing much better than most other middle tier characters in tournaments. His match-ups are mediocre, so I will move him down to the bottom of the middle, which seems to acknowledge his tournament placings which are good, and his match-ups which are less than average.
(The edit will be on my previous post)