Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[TehBo49]

^Why is bottom tier above low tier?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Good list, the only immediate thing I noted was that Kirby and Diddy should swap places

 

[Kalm]

That list looks really soild, though it does sadden me to see Ike constantly sitting at the bottom as usual. I understand the reasoning must be solid though.

Anyways, I think thats a list we should take seriously for a good while.

 

[Ratherion]

I suggest that if anyone is going to post any teir list, they give reasons for their choices with each character. Like the one that Kiwikomix posted a while back, it shows you actually gave thought to each and every one instead of flipping a quarter on the mid-bottom teir guys.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I don't know why bottom is above low? I mean they're just names, but I'll change it lol.

@Ratherion: I didn't pick where to place them, I just used the voices of others to help create this one. I'm very biased towards this stuff so I couldn't make a good tier list

 

[Sh1n0b1]

@: Mike Echoes

Why is bottom over low? Unless you mean lower bottom.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I fixed it, lol, sorry
I was just naming them as I remembered the names.

 

[Shök]

That's pretty good.
Snake, MK and Marth are Just Right (As long as they're top three).
TL should be higher (Just a little)
Sonic should be Mid Tier.
Top Tier should be have two more spaces. and take 1 away from mid and 1 away from bottom.

 

[ROOOOY!]

That list is decent, probably one of the better one's I have seen in fact.
Ness, Lucas, and Sonic could probably do to move up about two places each I reckon.

 

[SunriseW12]

Mike Echoes - Jiggs isnt bottom. She may not be good, but better than link/dorf/samus

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I didn't make the list, I just got the averages from four other lists lol.

I just tried to make a non biased one. I'm gonna guess you didn't read the full post?

 

[Blad01]

Hum yeah.... That's pretty good, but i'm sure that there will be some changes.

I'm so sad to see Samus in Bottom... :/

 

[W-man]

I would like to comment a little on the Low tier list you just showed off. It seems that those characters aren't estimated by most players, I agree with that. However, it is mostly because you can't play with us with absolute "easeness". Most players get very excited with a controller in their hands, trying to overwhelming their foe as nobody could stop them. But I have seen great matches with, for example, Ganondorf and Falcon, and I'm still glad to play with them occasionnaly, despite you feel rather prisonned by their laggy moves. It's hard to get a grasp with their rather baiting and punishing strategy, but I think a Ganondorf's Forward-b and Down-b can really hinder Metaknight's rushing and comboing srategy. It's the same for Falcon, plus his running speed and agility. I'll try to put my ideas on the corresponding threads, I just wanted to change everbody's sights as regards the Tier lists, so they don't feel limited by it. (despite that, I haven't found out, while playing certan characters as Jigglypuff, any strategic potential). All in all, I intend to say that they did conceive this game very balanced for the most part.

I wish my remarks will be of any use, so please excuse my awkward grammar.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Mike Echoes - Jiggs isnt bottom. She may not be good, but better than link/dorf/samus

I'm not even sure about that.


I mean sure her Aerial game is still great, but you have to remember a lot of people have great aerial games in Brawl, what makes her special? Not to mention she definately has the worst ground game in Brawl and is very light and punishable, and nerfed in some important aspects (Rest)

 

[Mike_Echoes]

That's a good point, instead of everyone agreeing on the Top Tiers, why not work backwards? Worst to Best? Would it be easier that way?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well the Top of the Top and the Bottom of the bottom seems pretty certain right now (Snake and MK, CF respectively)

 

[Mike_Echoes]

ok, so after Captain Falcon, who do u guys think is the NEXT worse. Pretend Falcon didn;t exist. Now who is the worst character?

 

[DanGR]

Top Tier
High Tier
Upper Tier
Middle Tier
Low Tier
Bottom Tier

. . .

Oh and @ DanGR, as a Kirby main, I can honestly say that there's no way he'll ever be the top of high tier. He has intense trouble dealing with Meta Knight, GaW, Pikachu, and Ice Climbers. Marth and Snake also provide problems, but not the extent of the aforementioned who always reside above him in reasonable tier lists. Not that I don't have faith in my main, it's just that if I know you're going to use Meta Knight, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, or Game & Watch, I'm not going to put myself in a bad situation when money is on the line.

According to the way you ordered the tiers, I don't see any problem placing him top of upper tier. Many have him bottom of upper, and I feel it's not giving him justice. Yes the characters you named are troublesome,(besides snake whom I feel isn't a big threat nor disadvantage for kirby) but personally, I think they ALL belong in your high or top tier.

 

[strongfan]

Jigglypuff seems pretty good in Brawl.

YOU FAIL!

 

[St. Viers]

no, it just happens that in brawl, pretty good doesn't mean anything

 

[metalmonstar]

ok, so after Captain Falcon, who do u guys think is the NEXT worse. Pretend Falcon didn;t exist. Now who is the worst character?

A lot of us agree that Gannondorf should hold that spot. However I think there may be arguments for jigglypuff or Yoshi holding the second worst spot.

So far it seems The top 4 is pretty much set. Top tier will get some discussion and maybe there will be small movements here and there. Other than that it seems it is going to be set pretty soon.

Bottom is going to get a lot more discussion. People normally don't argue when their character is top but when you place their character in the bottom then you get complaints. Some are good and will go into consideration. However most are, I beat so and so with so and so, that makes him/her good.

Most of us agree who is in bottom but where not wholly sure where each person fits in. There will certainly be a bit of discussion for the bottom tier.

 

[Anth0ny]

Great list. I'd probably put Ike and Lucas a but higher, but other than that, great job.

 

[Shök]

CF
Ganon
Yoshi
Samus
Link

Hmmmmm
Who Next?

Jiggs is better than that.

 

[jiovanni007]

Alright, I got 4 of the tier lists which everyone seemed to like and agree on. I put lists 1 and 2, beside each other and evened out the chars (i.e, Marth is position 3 on one, and 5 on another, Tier List 1+2 Combined would have Marth at position 4). I also did this with lists 3 and 4. Then, I got Tier List 1+2 and Tier List 3+4 and did the same with those to make Tier List 1+2+3+4.

I ALSO gave each character a numbered position based on their position in each Tier List. Snake being on top for one list would give him 37 points (As there are 37 characters) and MK would get 36 Points. So on and so forth. I added the points from each Tier List and divided by 4. Snake was the top for all 4 lists, so he got (37+37+37+37)/4 = 37. And that put him on top. I did this with each character and found that Numbered Tier List was almost identical to Tier List 1+2+3+4.

So without further ado, here is the Tier List:

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight

Upper:
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
R.O.B.
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf

High:
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pikachu
Wario
Kirby
Pit
Olimar
Zelda
Donkey Kong

Mid:
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Fox
ZSS
Bowser
Lucario
Lucas
Mario
Pokemon Trainer

Low:
Yoshi
Sonic
Ness
Peach
Sheik
Ike

Bottom:
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

That's the order they were in, I decided to try and divide the Tiers. But PLEASE comment and give suggestions

I'm actually pretty much in love with this list right here, with some tweaking it could become the best on this thread so far. First I have to be a lil nitpicky, the names of Upper and High should be switched due to language weirdness (Oh yeah he's up there on the tier list as opposed to yeah he's high on the tier list). I believe your Top, Upper, and Bottom tiers are absolute perfection. Actually, your high tier is actually pretty close to what I would have it as well. Middle tier is a bit sketchy in my opinion however. Why is Lucario so low? He should no doubt be at the top of the Middle tier if not at the bottom of the next tier. The only trouble he has in that tier is Lucas and has an advantage over some characters in the middle tier. Well I guess top of the middle tier would be perfect because of his decent match-ups in the mid tier and average tournament standings (#20 IIRC which is basically the middle assuming 39 chars). Sheik is another very underrated character. People were turned off to her because of the excessive nerfing. However, just because Sheik can no longer chain grab and the fair doesn't gimp at 40% anymore, doesn't mean that she's low tier. Sheik is easily in the middle tier, more towards th bottom. Her ftilt is only exceeded in brokeness by Snake's (Snake's packs power, whereas Sheik's can easily combo for ~20%). Not only that, but her recovery has been MUCH improved. She has a tether, and ^B doesn't onto the stage is no longer instant death due to the "force of wind" generated when she appears that outspaces Tlinks dair and Ness' Down B. I would contemplate splitting PT as well. There are people who have no problem keep the Pokemon they want in at all times. As for placement of them, I don't know.

@ DanGR
Yeah Kirby is amazing no doubt, but the huge problem with placing him higher is that you would be placeing him above almost all of his counters. As I said before Pikachu, GaW, Meta Knight, and Ice Climbers absolutely destroy Kirby. If you play as Kirby against someone who is actually good with these characters then you should be ready to lose. The precision needed when fighting these particular characters is absolutely ridiculous. The only advantages that he has against the better characters of the game include Wolf, Falco (reasoning at the end), King Dedede, Olimar and R.O.B. The first 3 get demolished and R.O.B. is a marginal advantage. But then you have to compare to the disadvatages in the higher tiers: Snake, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Toon Link, GaW, Marth, Ice Climbers, and Zelda. Not only does he have more disadvantages, but the disadvantages are stronger individually than the advantages. The only real strong advantages are Olimar, King Dedede, and Wolf. The other two are slight. The strong disadvantages are Pikachu, Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, and GaW. The other disadvantages are not as much, but at most times more noticeable than the advantages of Kirby. He may be able to move up a few spots (over Zelda no doubt), but there's no way he should be over the majority of the 3rd tier.

 

[St. Viers]

I'm Id say that yoshi will probably end up not bottom tier. However, that day hasn't yet come, as tier lists aren't supposed to be predictive.

I'd say that the worst chars in general (besides CF) right now are ganon, sonic, link, jiggz, peach, and yoshi. However, I think that the last two will rise, and that Ike will drop. because in reality Ike is too easy to gimp, and too slow, so as people become familiar with the game (and able to easily knck him out of his upB), he'll end up like melee's bowser--bottom, but still have 1-2 really good players using him.

 

[Shök]

Shiek cannot Land a kill move for Her LIFE.
Only her recovery was improved. That's it.
She's Low for sure.

 

[864today]

I like that tier list a lot, but why is Pokemon Trainer so low?
Squirtle may not be too great, but Ivysaur is amazing at racking up damage AND finishing people off, also has great range, with only a bad recovery as her letdown, but this can be easily fixed by either switch Ivysaur out at like 70% to Charizard who is also great. Squirtle has a great air game also.

 

[St. Viers]

dude you know about dashing upsmash, and up-air, right? Also, b-air is still okay >_>

So bottom of med sounds better. She can still gimp, has an annooying projectile, and can tilt-**** you

 

[hizzlum]

That's pretty good.
Snake, MK and Marth are Just Right (As long as they're top three).
Sonic should be Mid Tier.
Top Tier should be have two more spaces. and take 1 away from mid and 1 away from bottom.

Marth is not in that league, he's at the bottom of the top, G&W, ROB and Falco are above/tied with him in ranking, but their is no way marth is the third best character in the game(I'm saying this as a marth main, realzing that it's not his flaws that are putting him down, it's the rest of the good guys(snake,MK,ROB,G&W,Falco) who have good things against him.
Sonic has been considered low/bottom tier by most people beacuse of his lack of range and zero priority, so unless some guy comes into a big brawl tournament and wins every single match and proves his potencial, I doubt that sonic will ever be higher than the bottom of the middle.
The "best"/"top" tier does not need any more spaces, smashboards agrees that the two best characters in the game right now are Snake and MK, and then there is a second group of characters that are slightly below them(ROB,G&W,Falco,Marth) that should be catagorized into another tier that would state them as a "very high class of smashers that appear in almost every tournament and will mostly appear in the top 8"
The SBR should not take out places from other tiers to add to another tier, a tier does not have a defined number of people that can be in it(the original top in ssb has three people, the last tier list for melee has 2 in the top tier, and brawl will probably have a two character "top" tier. The SBR knows what there doing when they catagorize a character so it does not matter how big a tier is, we does need to take out spots from a tier to add to another tier, we can just add to a tier without taking spaces from another.

 

[Shök]

meh.....
Put her at the Top of the Low Tier.


And....

Maybe he's not in that league, but only Falco really has an advantage over him.

He has an advantage over Game and Watch.

The's even with Snake and MK, if not Snake has a tiny advantage.

So even if he's not...keep him at the top of the high tier.

Yeah Snake and MK are the two best. I never said he was in the same level of combat.

Either way, regardless of tier, HE'S THIRD.

 

[jiovanni007]

dude you know about dashing upsmash, and up-air, right? Also, b-air is still okay >_>

So bottom of med sounds better. She can still gimp, has an annooying projectile, and can tilt-**** you

QFT no doubt, especially tilt-****. Also add in that usmash goes through the platforms of most stages and you now have a workable character. Dsmash is also not that bad when used near the edge and has little start-up lag

I always forget to make a point, but my vision of bottom tier is as follows:

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Capt. Falcon

Jiggs over Old Manondorf because she still has priority and can still rest combo to some extent. Ganondorf lost so much priority. He could at least compete low tier if he still had that. It's almost like the programmers forgot to program it in. There's no way in hell that his big black fist of pain should be canceled out as easily as it is.

 

[hizzlum]

Maybe he's not in that league, but only Falco really has an advantage over him.

The's even with Snake and MK, if not Snake has a tiny advantage.

So even if he's not...keep him at the top of the high tier, or the bottom of the top tier (which should be 2 spaces bigger).

Either way, regardless of tier, HE'S THIRD.

ROB has advantage over him and snake has advantage over him(both have good projectile that hinder marth's approach)
Marth's lack of projectile keeps him from being in the "top" tier and thus he must be put in the second group(the ROB,Falco,G&W "top but technically not the top" group) where he will people in the middle/low part of that tier.
No one argues that the best tier in this game at the moment is just Snake and MK and marth is just slightly below that class of characters with the second best group where he will not be the best in that group.
All the marth experts(Emblem lord,M2k,even ken himself) agree that marth is not in the "best" tier, but would more appropriatly be in the middle/low part of the "second best" tier

 

[Deleted member]

Either way, regardless of tier, HE'S THIRD.

D3 is better, he can cg, infinate cg 5 characters, and has more range on the ground i believe.

 

[Emblem Lord]

At this point Marth, Dedede, G&W and Falco are viable for third IMO.

But to me they are all roughly equal so the order doesn't matter much.

 

[jiovanni007]

ROB has advantage over him and snake has advantage over him(both have good projectile that hinder marth's approach)
Marth's lack of projectile keeps him from being in the "top" tier and thus he must be put in the second group(the ROB,Falco,G&W "top but technically not the top" group) where he will people in the middle/low part of that tier.
No one argues that the best tier in this game at the moment is just Snake and MK and marth is just slightly below that class of characters with the second best group where he will not be the best in that group.
All the marth experts(Emblem lord,M2k,even ken himself) agree that marth is not in the "best" tier, but would more appropriatly be in the middle/low part of the "second best" tier

Agreed, there's no logical way to argue against that.

 

[KernelColonel]

Well maybe Marth deserves maybe a little more credence, I think he's at least middle material for the second tier. Besides, it's not like Metaknight has projectiles, right? That doesn't stop him from being the second best character in the game.

 

[St. Viers]

I don't see DDD being third, but whatever, he's certainly really good

 

[hizzlum]

Well maybe Marth deserves maybe a little more credence, I think he's at least middle material for the second tier. Besides, it's not like Metaknight has projectiles, right? That doesn't stop him from being the second best character in the game.

In my opinion MK still thrives in brawl without a projectile beacuse he has no lag what so ever on most of his moves,his attacks are lightning fast, and his dashing speed make it difficult for someone to camp him for a very long time. Also the multi-jumps allow him to easily pass over campers while a character like marth can't and he has more of a problem with campers than MK

 

[worldjem7]

Marth is probably bottom of high because you have people like ICs, Toon Link, Wolf, and Pit in front of him. Probably Dedede too.

 

[St. Viers]

marth is diff. in top 5, kernel...the only nerf was his range, and he got more power, so yeah...>_>